There is a subset of the female gaze that causes much kerfluffle amongst a lot of guys, and it tends to occur in an incredibly predictable pattern.
Now, for purposes of this post, we will be assuming that female desire for men is not a myth made up by the Illuminati to ruin your life. At the risk of sounding tautological: straight chicks dig dudes. If that’s too wild and out-there a concept for you, you might want to get off the train here.
There’s a very specific form of female desire that comes up at pretty regular intervals, and leads to a repetition of the same pop cultural hiccups every single time. It’s like an annual passion play about desire and gender enforcement, reenacted every year with a new cast. I am referring, of course, to the teen heartthrob.
Inappropriately NSFW pictures and old-man tongue-clucking follow the cut.
What I’m talking about is this:

Almost Swiftian in its rapierlike subtlety.
You’ve heard the jokes: Twilight is gay, and Justin Bieber is both gay and a girl. You wouldn’t think there’s enough material there for terabytes of jokes, but well, here we are.
Now here’s what’s interesting: no matter what age you are, the exact same shit happened when you were 13. There was a male celebrity, a singer or an actor, who massive numbers of young girls were obsessively desirous of. He was slightly androgynous in presentation and did not perform masculinity in a typical way. All the boys in the targeted age group hated him, and declared him gay, a girl, or both. Often it’s a band; ever since the 60s, prefab boy bands have been manufactured and marketed to produce exactly this effect.
Sometimes it happens louder, sometimes quieter. Sometimes you have a wave of cultural derision that seems embarrassing in retrospect, like James Bond making fun of the Beatles in Goldfinger, just one of a thousand anti-Beatles jokes from that era. History has been kind to the lads from Liverpool–less so to the Bay City Rollers, though there was a time in Britain where it was worth your life to insult that band around teenage girls, or suggest around teenage boys that the Rollers might be straight.
It’s a phenomenon as old as mass media. If you spend your time bumming around the 1920s trying to seduce Dorothy Parker, as I generally do, you can’t help but run into Rudolf Valentino.

Form an orderly line by the TARDIS, ladies.
Here we see the first major heartthrob phenomenon. Women swooned, men walked out of his movies in disgust. He was cited in an infamous editorial that bemoaned the death of true masculinity in favor of sissy pretty boys, an article that’s still running, basically verbatim, today. (Endless damned citations available on request.)
It’s eerie, really. Over nearly a hundred years, you’d expect some slight change. But no, still we play the same game. Pretty-boy celebrity, squeeing pubescent girls, sneering pubescent boys calling out homophobic slurs, editorials tut-tutting about whatever happened to Real Men? If this were any more ritualized, it’d be fucking Gormenghast.
So what the hell is going on here? What is encoded so deeply in our culture that it plays out identically every year without rehearsal or orchestration?
Well, gender enforcement, obviously.
The taste for the androgynous pretty boys isn’t universal, of course. I’m sure there are many women reading this who never even owned an album by N*Sync (or NKOTB, or Take That, or Wham!, or the Monkees…). However, an awful lot of women do recall a breathless obsession/fixation with their dreamy-eyed object of desire that utterly consumed their life for six months or a year, and then just quietly passed. There’s always various theorizing about androgynous guys seeming safer or less threatening to girls still growing into their sexuality, but that’s a topic for another day. What gets me is the gender enforcement.
I trust we can all agree that “gay” is what gender enforcers say when they’re trying to express the concept of “not performing masculinity hard enough”, right? So naturally that’s the first accusation leveled at the Valentinos and Biebers of the world. Conceptually, that’s ridiculous on the surface of it. The whole point of these guys is that they are catnip for girls. Hell, Valentino’s definitive role was (subtextually, at least) Rapemaster McRapington of Rapesylvania, and that was supposed to be the appeal. “Gay” is too easy; there’s something weirder going on underneath.
I think it’s significant how often these heartthrobs get called girls. With that poor Bieber kid it’s the main idea, but I’m sure you recall your share of Orlando Bloom jokes from a few years back, and even the Beatles got the same routine. On a surface level, yeah, that’s just another thing people throw at guys who aren’t performing masculinity hard enough, but I can’t help but feel like there’s another layer of enculturated strangeness.
The subject/object divide is one of the key elements of gender role enforcement, one encoded deeply into our conceptual grammar. In matters of sexual attraction, the point of the Two Rules of Desire is that men are the subjects, never the objects, the desirers, never the desired. Women are the objects of desire. Therefore, if you have a guy who is plainly and inescapably an object of desire, he is by definition a woman. Commence mocking him accordingly.
This phenomenon can be seen as an example of our profound societal commitment to the Myth of Men Not Being Hot. Men are definitely not hot, so we will find any other explanation necessary. Hot guys on TV drawing large female audiences? They must think he’s sensitive and caring, not sexy. Women into porn about two men together? They must be trans men. Women going nuts for a male porn star? They must like his personality.
Well, what about that guy? The one over there doing nothing but driving thousands of girls into a frenzy of feral lust that looks like a high-school production of The Bacchae?
Um, he must be a woman, then.
Hmm, okay, two things:
1) I’ve seen that Mad Magazine ad with Ringo, and it was a parody of a specific set of ads which featured the “Breck Girl.” The gag worked around Ringo being the (sorry, Ringo) ugliest of the Beatles. It wasn’t really meant to suggest that Ringo was actually girly.
2) I trust you’re aware of this:
http://lesbianswholooklikejustinbieber.tumblr.com/
I have no opinion of this, other than 1) it’s funny, and 2) it’s clearly not just jealous guys making these kind of comments about Bieber.
Oh, and I think it’s a stretch to say that Bond was dissing the Beatles’ masculinity, especially considering that the relative loudness and wildness of their music was aggressively masculine.
Equal time for Leonardo!
Really? Whatever else, you can’t divorce the obvious androgyny from the behavior of girls/women towards that type. Men aren’t calling them feminine names because we’re all screwed up and jealous. We do it because most of us don’t know the word “androgynous” and would use it if we could.
It is fair, and it is only a subset of a larger phenomenon, which is the homogenization of the images of beautiful/handsome in our culture. A slow walk through the video store will show you that Actor A looks an awful lot like Actor B who looks a lot like Actor C who looks a ton like Actor D, and the rest look like combinations of A-D. The same goes for women… and then you get weird things, like the fact that John Barrowman from ‘Doctor Who’ and ‘Torchwood’ looks like the gay son of the gay marriage and gay alien Scientology breeding of Tom Cruise and John Travolta.
Wait… did I have a point? Who knows? Something about types, and how it isn’t unfair to notice them, and that it is unfair to assign too much agency to them?
This. Just this. It all reminds me of this one time an artist decided to combat the whole trend of female superheroes being drawn in super revealing costumes by, well, drawing a bunch of attractive men in very revealing costumes, not for humour but because, well, it’s sexy. One of the pictures involved an attractive half naked man with a fully clothed, normal-looking girl holding on to him in a way clearly intended to allow the reader to identify with her. This picture was posted to an imageboard. One of the first comments? ‘Gay’. Because men are the only creatures who experience sexual attraction, so it’s totally impossible that a woman could enjoy pictures of sexy men, am I right?
The thing that gets me about the whole teenage heartthrob thing is how condescending it all is. We make fun of them and snark that they’ll regret all of this later, but we kinda roll our eyes and tolerated. They’re just teenage girls, right? The silliest, least reasonable creatures on earth! Of COURSE they’d go over the top and obsess over celebrities! (For their personality, of course!) They’re just teenage girls! And whenever we come across a teenage boy doing something similar – either towards a male celebrity or a female one – we laugh extra hard, or we purse our lips and declare it ‘creepy’. (Because the truly obsessive teenage fangirls aren’t creepy at all! I’m sure if Robert Pattinson were a girl and there were fanboys doing some of the stuff to her that happen to the real Robert Pattinson there’d be an outcry in seconds.)
It’s like in Japan, how teen girls falling for effeminate male manga characters (and trust me when I say that you’d be hard-pressed to find male characters more effeminate than those in manga) is looked down upon but mostly kind of ignored or not even noticed. On the other hand, as soon as guys start enjoying girls’ manga and swooning over female characters, the whole Japanese public collectively shudders, and the media runs itself into a frenzy finding experts to claim that Japanese society is being ‘feminised’ and ‘infanticised’ and that these ‘perverts’ are going to cause the breakdown of the social structure. It’s telling that manga is 70% boys’ manga, and that amateur manga is overwhelmingly consumed by women, and yet that almost all moral panic over manga in Japan revolves around men reading amateur girls’ manga. (Actually, the situation regarding gender in Japan is actually quite interesting, as there’s a growing trend for guys to act more and more feminine, in a way that suggests a breakdown of male gender roles that hasn’t happened in the West yet, which is pretty interesting for a country known for being behind regarding female gender roles. But now I’m definitely getting off-topic!)
Well, another factor is that, while Valentino doesn’t really fit in, Bieber, Robert Pattinson and young DiCaprio all fall into the category of what The Simpsons called “Non-Threatening Boys.” For teenage girls, there’s something safe about a slightly androgynous male, especially when, as in the case of Edward from Twilight, they are forever 17.
(Of course, I think it’s not unfair to note that when adult women fawn over a character like Edward – “Twilight Moms” – it’s a wee bit disturbing…
Here is a great article that explains the popularity of pretty boys from an evolutionary perspective. It might be useful to explain things to some folks who don’t get it.
“Actually, the situation regarding gender in Japan is actually quite interesting, as there’s a growing trend for guys to act more and more feminine, in a way that suggests a breakdown of male gender roles that hasn’t happened in the West yet”
News from your field reporter in Japan – gender roles still exist here, more at 11.
The Valentino thing is interesting, because the “He’s gay” stereotype has actually passed into history and he’s become something of a queer icon, despite their being very little in the way of actual evidence that he was. For some people saying Valentino is straight is seen as a homophobic whitewashing of history!
@monkey,
Due to Twilight, I wouldn’t say that Pattinson is non-threatening; he may fall in a similar category with Valentino.
Um, also, even though it is marked NSFW, I think the image of Bieber is pretty offensive.
@Hugh Ristik:
He’s nonthreatening in the sense that he doesn’t appear (at least until the final book) to want to have sex with Bella. I believe he is supposed to be literally a virgin.
Personally, I think it’s futile to try to chalk up to evolution the phenomenon of girls obsessing over pretty boys. From what I’ve seen in fandom communities, the attraction is very voyeuristic. Take a celebrity like Chris Colfer for example. He’s openly gay, quite effeminate, and has an enormous following of mostly teen girls and young women who flail over everything he does. And they are attracted to him. Fans trade pornography written and drawn about him or his TV character, obsess over every detail of his body on their tumblr blogs, etc. It can become quite graphic and even extreme at times, not exactly safe or unthreatening.
These practices are typical of many fandom communities. But Colfer is a special example because unlike Bieber and Pattinson, he actually is gay, obviously so, and so is his character. It’s something entwined in his whole celebrity persona as he is seen as a new young icon for the LGB community. The gayness is actually seen as appealing for fans of slash fiction, so it’s interesting how much it’s used as an insult by those outside the fandom.
Oh god don’t even talk to me about that bloody Good article Noah the whole thing seems hell bent on denying women the right to their desires. I did a search around tumblr for Mr James Deen and lets just say that a hell of a lot less women seem interested in him for his personality than for… well other reasons and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Seriously that whole article is a massive misrepresentation and proves even some well meaning sources can contribute to the myth on men not being hot.
Fantastic peace as always Noah
@ Hugh Ristik, sorry, but I’m unable to take that article seriously on account of it containing this sentence:
There’s probably some difference in the ecology of humans and the lizards that accounts for why the frequency of human morphs don’t follow a clean, periodic pattern.
yes there is probably some difference between the ecology of humans and lizards lolololol
Anyway, I really doubt “nonthreatening” is the quality women like about these types of men, but I can’t quite put my finger on it. I know that for me, growing up in a place where the correct type of masculinity involved football, big trucks, hunting, a certain type of disregard for one’s appearance, and was strictly enforced, I really appreciated any guy who was tough enough not to put on that kind of show. It was hot to see someone who would look at the performative masculinity circus and say “fuck that, I want to wear tight jeans and eyeliner!” in much the same way that I was starting to say “fuck makeup and belly shirts, I’m gonna wear my dad’s ripped up old tees and chop off my hair!” at the time. Similar to this TAL episode about “sissies” and why they are great: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/46/sissies (btw Noah, if you haven’t heard it, Act Two of that show is an amazing example of overt, detailed masculinity policing by way of a self-help manual from the 1940s)
And then I moved to Europe, which compared to my hometown, is basically an amazing wonderland of straight dudes who know that they have bodies and enjoy showing them off. So.
I’m anti-beatles. I just don’t like their music. I don’t call them gay, I’m not jealous of them or their popularity… I just happen to think their music is at best an attempt at novelty (never attempt novelty) and at worse gibberish.
I suspect the ‘non-threatening’ idea is a red herring, actually. For example, I haven’t read the books, but if I understand correctly, Edward desperately wants to drink Bella’s blood, except that would ‘ruin’ her (by turning her into a vampire). Talk about obvious sexual metaphors. So, no, the Twilight phenomenon isn’t an example of the ‘nonthreatening’ androgynous man; the threat is apparently supposed to be the delicious, sexy point (no puns intended regarding either teeth or … other body parts). In conventional romances, a dangerous, beautiful hero is sexier than a merely beautiful one.
I also wonder about the extent to which fresh-faced (as opposed to rugged) beauty is considered androgynous in men. I suspect this is a purely social construct: women can be just as rugged-looking as men, but the idealised woman is young and soft-looking. So it’s not that beautiful men actually look more like women in general — they just look a bit more like idealised women. Which is different. I say this in part because I’m attracted to certain forms of what is called ‘androgyny’ in men — and I really don’t think my attraction to that is related to my (occasional, but less common) attraction to women. A slenderly “androgynous” guy’s narrow hips are, to me, more sexy than a woman’s naturally wider hips.
It could also be that teenage girls are more likely to be attracted to guys their own age (or who at least look their own age). Another word sometimes used for this guys is “babyface”, and guys who look like this generally look more like tetenage boys (if they’re not actually teenagers) than guys with more “masculine” features.
Also, I think it would be pretty creepy if the early/pre-teen girls who obsess over Beiber were doing the same over, say, a super masculine guy in his thirties.
Just to check on the jealousy theory– how was women going nuts over Elvis Presley viewed?
I’m somewhat torn by this article.
I recognise the point, and I admit, with shame, to being one of the horde of teenage boys sneering “gayyyyy” at the objects of female desire — the Backstreet Boys, Hanson, and, in particular, Leonardo DiCaprio. God I hated him; I hated his smug smile, I hated his “no really I’m embarrassed by the attention” attitude, I hated the fact that the same girls who would simper over how “sensitive” he was would happily participate in mocking any boy who acted that way in real life.
So in the spirit of challenging my prejudices, I watched a movie recently with him in it. And hated it. Turns out I still think he’s a talentless pretty-faced mannequin who can’t do any emotions except “wounded puppy” and “dark and edgy™”.
Ditto for the boy bands of my youth, and ditto for the boy singers of today. I just can’t see any worth to them; they’re all terrible, bland, hollow, style over substance, and putting up with them makes me feel like my brain is slowly gelatinising.
Is this just my insecurities talking, or do I speak truth?
Is this just my insecurities talking, or do I speak truth?
I’ll give you the boy bands (and I don’t censure you for the adolescent homophobic sneering; I did the same thing, and my only defense is that I outgrew it), but I think you’re selling DiCaprio short. It was actually Titanic that took me from mildly impressed with him as an actor to a serious fan. It amazed me that he and Winslet actually sold the love story. I totally believed in their romance, and it was not because of the writing. The writing on that film was so bad that it retroactively cancels out one of Billy Wilder’s scripts, and Billy Wilder was god. That romance was carried entirely on DiCaprio and Winslet’s non-verbal acting chops, and they pulled it off. I don’t want to resort to the appeal to authority, but I think there’s a reason DiCaprio is Martin Scorcese’s favorite actor these days, y’know?
@GemmaM:
I can recognise this so much. I think part of it also that since beauty is regarded as a feminine trait, anything beautiful is automatically coded feminine, even when it isn’t a particularly female trait. I’ve experienced the same with some of my traits being coded masculine, even though I haven’t observed many actual gender difference in the distribution of said traits.
I’ve talked to guys who seriously claimed that being chubby was manly, and being skinny was womanly, and that an average male body would naturally have more body fat than a female body. This is the equivalent of saying women will tend towards smaller mammary glands and more body-hair, it’s completely opposite of how human bodies work in real life. But because slimness is an ideal for women (and a general ideal of beauty) in our culture, some people assume having a low body fat % is feminine.
I’ve seen the same with long legs, another masculine trait coded feminine. I heard an expert in a TV program explain that Claudia Schiffer actually had some pretty masculine facial features (I’m guessing the jaw), but I’ve never heard anyone else calling her masculine, because she’s so conventionally beautiful. It’s a circular logic, where beauty is considered the province of women because typically beautiful traits are feminine in nature, and typically beautiful traits are considered feminine in nature because beauty is the province of women. It seems very similar to the reasoning as to why men are allegedly more rational than women, with rationality being retroactively applied to the more common male opinion.
@SpudTater:
I think many people feel this about teenage idols and sex symbols in general. I certainly didn’t feel like Britney Spears was a talented singer, and I’ve never heard anyone claim Megan Fox can act. But while those women are often criticised for being looks without substance, they still seem to be more generally accepted as valid sex objects for men (perhaps because men are supposed to be shallow), and at least they’re never accused of manliness.
@AB: Yeah, true. I suppose there’s a catch-22 going on here that women (teenaged girls, especially) are not allowed to like men just for being attractive, so they feel obliged to pretend that these people have actual talent — at which point they are criticised for being dishonest/easily duped!
Maybe I just dislike teen idols and youthfulness as an ideal, full stop. Even as a teenager I was never conviced by the whole Britney Spears obsession. I mean, seriously, a schoolgirl outfit? I wanted nothing more than to get out of school!
@Noah: Your appeal to authority only works if you assume that Scorcese has genuine respect for good acting, which I don’t. I think he knows what he likes and what he likes is a handsome face that will look good on posters and sell lots of cinema tickets.</heresy>
(Seriously, I think that Scorcese’s Manly Films of Manliness are a bit overrated.)
When I went to see the second Twilight movie, I was somewhat surprised by the fairly vocal reaction of a group of teenage girls to the 2 male leads. When Robert Pattinson went to remove his shirt, the group would shout out things like “put it back on”. Shirtless Taylor Lautner, on the other hand, produced wolf-whistles and cheers. The buff Lautner was clearly preferred over the more androgynous Pattinson, at least by this vocal group.
(I’m not saying I disagree with them – as a bi man, I find Lautner the much more attractive of the two.)
Hmm, I realize that Edward is not exactly “non-threatening,” but from what I understand he still keeps his impulses in check, so that it’s Bella who has to do the pursuing. He’s “non-threatening” in the sense that he allows Bella (and by extension the reader) to be the pursuer.
Another thing about why Twilight lends itself to a gay interpretation (whether homophobic or not): The story *is* essentially a menage a trois. Somebody on Jezebel pointed out that if you reverse the genders Twilight ends up being Archie, and while I have not looked in awhile (ahem) I believe there are at least a few images of Betty and Veronica getting it on.
@Miko: Interesting mention of Chris Colfer. I haven’t seen a lot of homophobia about Colfer online, except of course from older people.
@Nancy Lebowitz: Interesting point about Elvis. I have read a lot about Elvis, and I’ve never once encountered a description of him as effeminate or gay. Yes, he was a very handsome guy, and even had some slightly feminine features (the lips) but even at the height of Elvis mania I don’t think there was any “Pfft. Gay.” The same with Sinatra, who was just as big a teen idol as the others.
Could it be just be jealousy? At least in some cases?
That men who belittle girls/womens passionate affection for famous men, feel stinged because a woman (any woman he might have a romantic/sexual relation with) is less likely to express that (or any other kind) of attraction or pasion for himself?
Wouldn’t that fit straight into a “Myth of (Regular) Men Not Being Hot”??
Also, about the “safe” or “non-threatening” part.
I don’t think the term is connected to their roles or character. I think it’s more the safety of a one-way relation, where you can express all your feelings and desires but there’s a very non-existence-approaching chance that you’ll ever be called to act upon them.
@Nancy Lebovitz:
Elvis and Sinatra were foremost popular among men, hence they couldn’t be gay…
The girls were only after them for their good looks though, while men admired them purely for talent and performance…
@Flyingkal:
“Elvis and Sinatra were foremost popular among men, hence they couldn’t be gay…”
Um, no…
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Frank-Sinatra-Biography/CD38C2F5828368DF4825691F00051ABB
Sinatra was pretty much the first singer to cause the mass hysteria that is associated with “teen idols,” even though he was a bit older.
As for Elvis….
Thinki9ng more about Leo, I think his career path has followed something similar to Sinatra’s. Sinatra was not considered a “serious” singer until he got older. However, there is a reason for that, because Sinatra’s voice did change over time. As he started, he was imitating Bing Crosby, badly, just as Leo was imitating previous actors like James Dean. it took both awhile to find their “voice.”
As for the internet, I would point out that the internet tends to diss EVERYONE. I’m not sure how many people are jealous of Rebecca Black, for example.
@Jono:
I think that, while the preferences of teenage girls might not be as diverse as among people who’re likely know what they want, there’s still variation. Lautner might be closer to the mainstream ideal, which makes up for him not being as androgynous as Pattinson. He’s also younger, which I think appeals to teenage girls. And it’s worth noticing that even before the movies, many people preferred Jacob to Edward, because him and Bella accidentally ended up with way better chemistry between then than Bella and Edward.
But despite being at least as popular with girls, it doesn’t seem like Lautner gets as much hate from other guys as Pattinson. Is it because getting admired for his six-pack more dignified and acceptable for a guy than being admired for his pretty face and sparkly skin?
Okay, um, I realize that I’m repeating myself, but the picture of Bieber is pretty inappropriate, if I’m reading it correctly. He’s still a kid, for pete’s sake.
@AB: I personally feel less animosity when I see a picture of Lautner, and I think it’s mostly just because he’s not on all the posters.
When your discussing Twilight there is something to be said about the body oriented objectification of Lautner – who is the man of color, poor, associated with animals — vs. the multifaceted (body and intellect) worship of pattinson – smart, rich, white, creative – an intellect or a dandy – who gets to be more than just a sex/violence object. He’s the control factor – and yes he’s visually feminized but he’s also pretty hegemonic – he’s always right; he’s violent; he’s controlling.
That said – how is it that people continually dismiss the idea that females are sexual beings when there are always these figures that drive teen girls to the brink? And isn’t it so interesting that they are rarely figures of hegemonic masculinity. As if there is a space before puberty completes – when beauty and sexual attraction to beauty are not gender regulated. The issue is that male sexual obsession is not configured in this way — in other words teen boys don’t lust after masculine girls…hmm…need to think about that more…
“teen boys don’t lust after masculine girls…hmm…need to think about that more…”
But they *do* fantasize a *lot* about lesbians. Or so I’m told.
Just to confuse the issue further, I’d also suggest that there’s a social element to the phenomenon, in which girls/women can bond with each via shared squee over the same object of affection. As flyingkgal pointed out above, there’s a pretty insurmountable real world distance between the average teenage girl and average boy band member. Unless there’s some serious delusion going on, most girls/women involved in a celebrity crush (based on what I’ve witnessed over the years, anyway) don’t *really* believe that they themselves could have any access to the object of desire, so any jealousy or competition issues vanish and instead it becomes something akin to a more generic fandom.
In fact, celebrity crush fandom often crosses over with an actual fandom (witness the number of female “Doctor Who” fans, for example, who express a bit of a crush on David Tennant or Matt Smith, or the “Twilight” situation where the actors who play favorite characters attract masses of attention). That also ties in somewhat with the fact that there are often bands/music involved, especially for the teen boy bands. It can also make for interesting times if a fandom has a large male contingent that isn’t sympathetic to the female contingent’s addition of celebrity crushes into the mix . . .
Sorry, not trying to derail this away from male issues and into All About What Women Think, but I really have noticed the girl-bonding aspect of the phenomenon, which often seems (from this POV, anyway) to become far more important than the actual object of the celebrity crush itself, and I think it’s hard to discuss the issue without involving that aspect.
@chrislittlesun – “Also, I think it would be pretty creepy if the early/pre-teen girls who obsess over Beiber were doing the same over, say, a super masculine guy in his thirties.”
Hmmmm . . . well, for what it’s worth, back when I was a teen in the 80s, my friends and I weren’t terribly interested in the then-popular teen idols (in fact, I can’t even remember who they *were*), but there was an almighty lot of love for Harrison Ford, Tim Curry, and Sting. You can argue the “super masculine” aspect, but they certainly weren’t teenagers. Just sayin’.
That said – how is it that people continually dismiss the idea that females are sexual beings when there are always these figures that drive teen girls to the brink?
From what I can tell there is a forced cut off. In my own experience I’ve seen women that express lust get dismissed by way of calling them school girls or horny teenagers. The cut off point appears to be that while a teenage girl may be allowed to have those feelings a “real woman” isn’t (or its reduced to acting like watching a man do housework is pornographic). Not too distantly related to how a young boy is given a small bit of leeway in terms of being allowed to cry but that small bit of leeway is taken away (or reduced to hits to the genitals, the death of a loved one, and his sports team losing) once he reaches the age where a “real man” is not supposed to cry.
The issue is that male sexual obsession is not configured in this way — in other words teen boys don’t lust after masculine girls…hmm…need to think about that more…
They do or at least some of them do. They’re just told its wrong which leads to feeling shame over it and thus having to put up fronts to deny it. Male sexuality isn’t configured in the same manner that female sexuality is but rest assured its configured in ways that are pretty unfriendly to a lot of males.
Dang, meant to type “. . . girls/women can bond with each *other* via shared squee . . .” I love how typos manage to hide till you post, then jump out at you. :/
I think a significant part of teenage boy “anger” towards teen idols is how girl teenagers express their attraction towards those idols. Squealing and screaming, being very flagrant about it. Teenage boys express themselves differently (in general, for better or worse). A boy might tell their friends “I’d do her” or something like that but there’s very little screaming and hooting at movies or at concerts. I just think there’s frustration with the girls in addition to the other aspects people have already mentioned.
I also want to just add that I don’t understand all this hater stuff. Yeah, haters are gonna hate…but why is that seen as “cool”? When did this happen?
Thanks for this post, Noah!
I’ve also been thinking about this phenomenon lately. I don’t really buy that whole “non-threatening” deal, to be honest. To stick to the Twilight-example, both Edward and Jacob are dangerous in different ways, and Edward practically never shuts up about that fact. If I remember correctly, Jacob also kissed Bella against her will at one point, and she hurt her hand trying to punch him. We also have the whole Draco In Leatherpants phenomenon, but I would say characters like that often draw less ilk from the guys than pretty boy protagonists.
Another good example would be Bill Kaulitz from Tokio Hotel. He is (or was) really popular with the tween- and teen girl demographic, and there were quite a few guys who went from thinking that he was a cute girl, to viciously hating him and his appearance when they learned that he was actually an androgynous looking guy – which reveals a load of internalized homophobia.
I also noticed that a few guys have less of a problem with saying that a tradtionally masculine guy, who tends to not really be popular with girls and women, is good looking , than saying something positive about a teen girl heart throb’s looks.
Ally:
Are you perhaps talking about (NSFW) humon’s art? The Iron Man one in particular?
While I do have issues with some of humon’s stuff (the comic about the Assange thing), I think it is nice that she often addresses hurtful double standards..
It’s really weird that pictures featuring only one guy get labelled homoerotic, or that pictures featuring two women fooling around wih each other are mostly seen as eye candy for straight guys. I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen works with f/f content labeled homoerotic.
Okay, this is a HUGE derail, but I love it like burning and as long as the topic of gender-swapped superhero outfits has been brought up — here’s the Gender Swapped Justice League:
http://blogs.laweekly.com/stylecouncil/2011/07/gender_bent_justice_league.php
Sheer genius, I think (high-quality, clever costumes, and good people chosen to lay each part) . . . but how fast would Power Guy get called “gay” (and probably *was* labeled as such) by a large segment of fandom?
Er. I’m having a bad typo day: “. . . *play* each part . . .”.
At least there’s humor value in that goof-up.
When you say masculine what exactly do you mean feministcupcake? I’ve long had cruses on women who could be considered androgynous and tomboyish like Angelina Jolie (well when she was younger she’s gone a bit more trad femme now still pretty cool though) or women who are masculine in there mannerisms, badass outspoken women like Courtney Love, Shirley Manson and Brody Dalle.
One of the reasons for this I think touches on f’s reply to Hugh Ristik although with the gender reversed obviously, they were a change of pace from all the traditionally feminine women I was supposed to like.
@Noah:
During my graduate work in film studies, I had the opportunity to read an Informed Scholarly Article that basically described Valentino exactly as you just did, so cheers for pointing that out.
I also agree with your assertion that when the Gender Police call some guy “gay,” they basically mean he’s not performing masculinity hard enough. To be honest, I think that should be on UrbanDictionary.
Like you, I think there’s more at work here than Not Performing Conventional Masculinity, but I think it’s slightly more complicated than the Two Rules of Desire. From my perspective, it’s not simply that some men are desired and therefore derided. I think it’s intimately related to society and expectations of masculinity.
For example, assume you’re a teenage male* with the following insecurities: budding sexual desire; growing awareness of expectations of masculinity; desire to construct or find your own identity. You want to be liked, but not at the expense of yourself or your identity. You’re curious about sex and maybe want to get laid (with men OR women, but for the moment, assume you’re more or less straight), but don’t know how to go about it. You may or may not feel masculine, and you may or may not agree with some or all expectations of masculinity. You may feel unformed or confused in terms of identity, or as though the identity you WANT is at odds with what society wants.
Suddenly, you see Valentino, or the Beatles, or Bieber, or whomever, being fawned over by all these womenz, some of whom you may be curious about sexually. So in your head the following things happen:
1). What does this androgynous fellow have that I don’t?
2). Am I Doing It Wrong with regards to masculinity?
3). Is MASCULINITY doing it wrong? I mean, this guys isn’t conventionally masculine, but all these women are swooning. WTF?
4). All these guys are really pissed at him — should I join the crowd? Will they get pissed at me if I don’t? Will they get pissed at me if I don’t conform to expectations of masculinity?
5). Damn it, I have to actually walk up to these womenz and ask them out, but HE doesn’t. Is it because he’s famous, or wealthy, or androgynous, or all three?
To add to the fun, you may or may not be questioning the formative processes of your own identity with regard to sex, society, masculinity, and peer pressure.
So for this fellow it’s a mish-mash of identity and social pressure to perform and conform, and sex and sexuality and sexual desire and jealousy and admiration and all kinds of fun stuff.
*Naturally, there are as many teenage males as there are, well, teenage males; this fellow’s perspective is just ONE perspective of many, and hardly monolithic. The idea is less about raising one example above all others than demonstrating how the different pressures interact.
On the other hand, I could be wrong about all of this.
For a lot of straight guys, the desire to bang a lot of chicks is not about sexuality. It is about gender. A major theory of masculinity is this one: “I get laid a lot, which proves that I’m a real man.”
Attractive androgynous guys are a problem here. If we note that girls like Bieber, and we note that Bieber seems not to be performing masculinity super-strenuously, there is a major problem for the masculine equation. Bieber has the potential to bang a lot of chicks, AND YET, Bieber is not a real man.
Take PUA culture as another an example. One would never see a PUA advising men “go join an organic foot co-op, become a vegan and grow dreadlocks. Hippie chicks are always easier to get into bed than club girls.” Never mind the fact the question of whether this advice is accurate, it is not part of the PUA mission statement. The main goal of PUAs is not sex, it is impressing other guys with your prowess.
By contrast, there is less complaining from the masculinity police when women drool over John Hamm, Harrison Ford or other more masculine-seeming celebrities.
@Argyle: Also — fangirls like Davit Tennant because he is pretty good looking, not just because he was Doctor Who.
Everyone likes Matt Smith, because he is INCREDIBLY good looking (although he stole that look — I can provide documentation to demonstrate this fact).
Damn it. “Organic foot co-op”? I can’t type today. That should have been “food”
@Endless Summer:
That’s not how it is in Denmark
@Danny:
Funny, I was thinking the same thing. Both crying and being attracted to people based on appearance are considered bad, and ascribed to each sex. Women are emotional, irrational, hysterical, hyper-sensitive, overreacting etc., while men are shallow, predatory, “thinking with the wrong head”, horndogs, etc.
But ironically, it also means there’s often quite a bit more tolerance towards a behaviour a certain sex has already been found ‘guilty’ of, while the demands to stay above a certain behaviour (crying for men, physical attraction for women), despite being flattering towards whichever sex is told they’re ‘too good’ to engage in it, can end up being more damaging in the long run.
Of course, it’s not always that simple. I linked to a study here a while ago, which found that tears were generally more accepted in men (at least among the test subjects). It also seems that when women enter traditionally male fields, they’re often not only required to change to male standards, they also have to do even more work to prove that they’re not an emotional female.
In the same way, I’ve heard about how women can sometimes talk about guys in ways which would be considered too frank and disrespectful if coming from men. I recall a couple of Danish TV stars who became sex symbols in the 80s tell about it later, with the woman having very good experiences with her gentlemen admirers, while the man had sometimes felt downright sexually harassed. The women didn’t have a language for expressing their attraction moderately because they were not expected to express it to begin with, while the man didn’t know how to tell them off.
I also think some of it goes back to the way attractiveness is coded feminine. I’ve heard that there are cultures where men are considered strange for not wanting more plump women, because that’s supposed to be the appeal of women to begin with. But while some people in the western world talk about supermodels as sticks looking like young boys, I’ve never seen anyone in real life talk about a slim woman looking masculine, and I’ve never seen a guy being ashamed over being attracted to them.
AB:
I also think some of it goes back to the way attractiveness is coded feminine. I’ve heard that there are cultures where men are considered strange for not wanting more plump women, because that’s supposed to be the appeal of women to begin with.
Depending on where you are and the guys in question that attitude can be found in the US (perhaps you don’t see this in Denmark?). I know you didn’t grow up in American culture so you may not recognize it but back in the 80s there was a song by the name, “Baby Got Back” in which the rapper praised women who had large hips, tits, and butts. And yes race does come into play (such as referring to a white woman who is particularly well endowed in the butt and hips, but not tits oddly, with commentary about how she’s like a black woman).
But while some people in the western world talk about supermodels as sticks looking like young boys, I’ve never seen anyone in real life talk about a slim woman looking masculine, and I’ve never seen a guy being ashamed over being attracted to them.
Trust me, it happens.
Of course, it’s not always that simple. I linked to a study here a while ago, which found that tears were generally more accepted in men (at least among the test subjects). It also seems that when women enter traditionally male fields, they’re often not only required to change to male standards, they also have to do even more work to prove that they’re not an emotional female.
Yeah there will always be deviations. For all every man whose tears were accepted in that study there’s a man who has direct experience of his tears not being accepted (in fact I wonder if some of the very men whose tears were tested could attest to that). Just as there are women didn’t have to “prove” anything beyond the fact that they can do the job (which by the way happens to men as well).
And I have to echo the problems with that Beiber pic. He’s still not 18 (I know the age of consent is different in different places mind you…)
When David Bowie started getting into his Ziggy Stardust phase, he had a really hard time initially selling the androgynous-space-aliens-in-makeup concept to the band. The sentence that finally convinced them? “You will literally drown in pussy if you do this.” And they did.
I’ve got a couple of theories about the allure of androgynous dudes, but they’re pretty much entirely made up out of my head.
1) I wonder if it’s an age-and-stage thing for some people? I’ve noticed that my own desires in terms of the sort of women who catch my eye have altered as I’ve aged, but that they also don’t for some people. Maybe some women go through a phase of being really into the pretty-boys, and some stay there forever?
2) I think the opposition to androgynous guys comes from a dual position of gender-enforcement and sexual jealousy. Androgynous is a harder look to pull off and requires a more specific physical look than, say, Humphrey Bogart or elder Sean Connery-style ruggedness. That means that it’s a more exclusive style, and will leave more guys feeling left out if its in vogue a the moment. I think that artists who used this as part of their look would be disingenuous in claiming that that wasn’t part of the appeal for them…
Is it somewhat ironic in light of this post that one such heartthrob, Liberace, actually was a closeted homosexual?
@Leo Salloum – “@Argyle: Also — fangirls like Davit Tennant because he is pretty good looking, not just because he was Doctor Who.
Everyone likes Matt Smith, because he is INCREDIBLY good looking (although he stole that look — I can provide documentation to demonstrate this fact).”
Interestingly, in my corner of fangirldom, David Tennant’s good looks actually worked *against* him for a while — there was a sense that he’d been cast to be pretty, not because he’d play a good Doctor, which had a lot of female fans turned off by him. The initial script emphasis on his comedy background (with much yelling and gurning and such) didn’t help. But then, when he was given a bit more material that let him show off his acting skillz, and interviews began revealing what a complete and gleeful SF geek he himself happened to be . . . the tide turned, and he became *attractive* as well as pretty to a wide swath of the female fans I know.
(FWIW, I’ve always found the distinction between “pretty” and “attractive” to be an interesting one, and it’s not something that seems gender-specific based on discussions with friends. But that’s a whole ‘nother topic.)
I think it’s interesting that you classify Matt Smith as “incredibly” good looking, since I’ve heard a great many more people call him . . . “unconventionally attractive” is a kind way to put it (and many online folks, often male, haven’t even been willing to concede that). Which isn’t to say *I* don’t think he looks fetching in a fez — I do — but there seems to be a lot more variation in reactions to his appearance than Tennant’s.
Mods, fair warning: Justin Bieber is still under the age of 18, so any images, even fake ones, of him engaging in sex acts is legally considered child porn.
@Noah, I was definitely one of those teenagers who had it up to here with teen idols. I think you hit on a lot of good points about gender enforcement of men by men that I must admit having been guilty of, but I still can’t really can’t accept the teen heartthrob phenomenon even today, because of many other reasons, which I want to mention here.
Say what you will, but the teenage idol is associated with extremely poor quality, mass produced culture. As a teenager, when I was getting into Jimmi Hendrix, John Coletrane, Kurt Cobain, etc, the girls in my elementary school were into the Backstreet Boys, would come into class and literally shriek in their corner whilst talking about how cute these males were. That whole phenomenon was alien to me, I didn’t get it, and I tried to listen to the music in order to “fit in” and make friends with those girls, it was just god awful. I mean, I was going home and reading everything I could about musical heroes such as Janis Joplin and Aretha Franklin, and music was extremely important to me. By the way, I also played flute in my school’s stage band and orchestra, took piano lessons and guitar lessons after school So this boy band phenomenon, I saw it as an outright betrayal of everything that was good and wholesome about our culture, even at the age of 10. I mean, I got it – the commercialism, the falseness. And it made me angry that girls my age had absolutely no clue about someone like Janis Joplin, never even heard of Jimi Hendrix, yet they knew every word to every song by NSYNC. I mean, come on!. It’s embarrassing. But it also felt like I had insight into a world of quality and I was not being recognized for it by the opposite sex, which, as it turns out, has become a life-long theme for me.
Then there’s this little problem with female pedophilia. I know, no one wants to touch that. But it’s there. Middle aged women, celebrity women, have gone on television interviews and said things to the effect that they would like to fuck JB. It has come to the point where an adult woman has found it fit in her head to accuse him of parenting her child, even though it would make her guilty of statutory rape. I mean, sometimes you see the same thing going the other way around, like when we had the Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen countdown clocks until they turned 18, but it’s rarely actually recognized as being sick when women do similar things. With men, even teenage men, it’s more acceptable to lust after women of age. During my time, they were women like Pamela Anderson.
And by the time dating started, the incongruity was that the girls our age would actually be dating older men and jeering at us for our have-nothing, ride-the-bus-to-school teenage immaturity. But then they would shriek over young men who, if we were to actually emulate, would perhaps win us days’ worth of group shopping excursions to the mall, but nary a real romantic interest. Plus it just so happened that I went to High School with a kid who happened to be a nationally known teenage idol movie star. I don’t even remember his name anymore, it’s been so long since he faded from the limelight. But I do remember him as the most prissy, stuck up ingrate I had ever met up until that time, who everybody hated except for a group of girls who took him on shopping excursions to the mall. While his PR website listed him as an athletic and popular kid, knowing him in real life convinced all of us (his male peers) that he was an absolute fake. That experience gave me, and all of us, a lot of insight into how the corporate culture machine worked, and by high school, the group of friends that I got into hated that.* It only made us think that all the other teenage heartthrobs were exactly the same. It was about quality and authenticity, and let’s just say that it only made it worse that we didn’t see him as a “real man,” either.
*Then again, my high school cohorts and I were outliers… we were the atheist punk kids who got detention for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegiance and got banned from the mentally gifted cafeteria (yes, my high school had one of those) for talking a little too loudly about the way our parents beat the shit out of us at home.
That came out wrong! I did a little time warp, I certainly wasn’t a teenager in elementary school
@Doug S: I don’t think Liberace was really a heartthrob in the same way the other guys were. He appealed mostly to old ladies.
Someone who fits that bill more closely is Cesar Romero, who was, by most account gay but who became popular as the quintessential “Latin Lover.” What’s ironic is that Romero dated many starlets, who loved him because they knew he wouldn’t try anything.
Monkey: You might be right about that, I didn’t live through the period so I don’t know who Liberace’s fanbase consisted of.
[self-disclaimer: anger, cynicism, & generalizations ahead] And here’s another thing! Justin Bieber is a little punk-assed anti-choice kid, but he’s probably too young and brainwashed to know what he’s talking about. We’ll see, maybe he’ll grow up to be a breakout success like DiCaprio, but right now he’s just some publicity manager’s sock puppet. And some of these girls who are shrieking over him are some of the very ones who are going to end up enrolling in women’s studies, make their boyfriends listen to India Arie, and then wax poetic about how cuuuute Marshall Mathers is. And when you look at the Misandric Music Video thread over at Feminist Critics, you’ll see that when some of these women are confronted with lyrics and images of violence against men, they brush it off with something similar to, “but I don’t listen to the words, I just wanna dance to it…”
Authenticity matters. That’s all. I’ll continue to hate on teen idols, proudly, and I’ll have to be forgiven if the first thing that comes to my mind when I come across a fan is that they’re probably an airhead.[/ end rant]
Plus it just so happened that I went to High School with a kid who happened to be a nationally known teenage idol movie star.
Funny you should say so, dungone. I also went to high school with one of the kids who was always on the cover of Tiger Beat that year. I fear we used to tease him by reading the love letters written to him in those magazines. Awful, the things that seem funny when you’re a teenager. He was a pretty decent guy, though. We played a lot of Magic: The Gathering. I guess pretty-boy mileage varies.
When I try to describe what I find physically appealing in a man, I’m at loss of words that sound both hetero (as I’m a woman) and sincere to me. I like the softness under his eyes, the warmth*, the softness around the middle of a slightly chubby guy, lips, eyes, nibbling on an exposed neck, tenderness, silky hair… it’s like men are supposed to be these grotesque muscle machines, and if I like them for whatever else than they money or their hours spent in the gym (and money spent on steroids), then suddenly I’m a lesbian or something.
How do you tell a men that he’s gorgeous without implying that he’s not actually a man? The obvious answer is that you should pick up guys who are over all those programming, but restricting myself to them would be too much of a limitation, plus I myself don’t have such a nicely reprogrammed brain, either. :/
*isn’t they supposed to have more body heat than women? And still, even this sounds unmasculine. go figure.
just to be clear, secondary sexual characteristics like the shape of their chest, the narrowness of their hips and the wideness of their wrists are attractive for me too.
Actually, I might be wrong, but I honestly don’t recall calling DiCaprio or anything like that gay. Still loathed the guy, but that was because the year Titanic came out, there was about a half dozen girls in my class who absolutely would. not. sut. up. about him. I didn’t care that they thought he was cute, or whatever, I just got sick of listening to them yammer on about him. Especially since the longer they talked, the higher their voices became pitched to the point where I was pretty sure they could shatter glass.
As for Twilight, I proudly make fun of twilight. Not because of Lautner or Pattinson are considered hot, (hell, I think lautner’s hot too, come to that) No, I make fun of Twilight because it’s badly written (couldn’t get past chapter three of the first book before I wanted to chew my own face off) and takes a meat mallet to werewolf and vampire lore (sparkling? what the hell?)
It just occured to me, re my comment above about teen hearthrobs being considered “feminine” or “gay” simply because they’re young and still have their “babyface”, that this is could also be the reason why (famous) men are often concidered to become more attractive with age while women are often seen to be “past their prime” at thirty or whatever. People are simply seen to look more “masculine” as they grow up and grow older, which of course is acceptable for a man, but not so for a woman.
I’ll just point out that the image of Bieber is in theory enough to get this web site blocked from most net users in Norway – it doesn’t matter if it’s fake:
It also could fall under the “Project Cleanfeed Canada” filter. And probably several other countries have similar “voluntary” filters used by the ISPs as well.
It also seem to be edging pretty close on violating the wordpress terms of service.\ (http://http://en.wordpress.com/tos/):
You may want to consider the risk of having that image on this blog.
How do you tell a men that he’s gorgeous without implying that he’s not actually a man? The obvious answer is that you should pick up guys who are over all those programming, but restricting myself to them would be too much of a limitation [whoever]
That’s an interesting question! Applying what we know about how men are always supposed to be the actors in a relationship, and the women the passive objects, I suggest the following as a sneaky coded way of telling him what you feel:
“You excite me”.
Tada! Now it’s something he’s doing to you, not something you’re doing to him. 8^)
Anybody else have any suggestions?
[Disclaimer: I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, an expert on relationships.]
That’s a fair question as a critique of rigid gender roles. But might I also suggest that complimenting men on their appearance isn’t something that women spend a lot of time doing or thinking about. And complimenting someone on their appearance is actually not as easy as it seems when you actually try to do it, as you’re finding out. I’m sure that no woman would want to come off as the female counterpart of this: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=639#comic . Let’s take one of your examples and reverse the genders for a second. Let’s say that a guy came up to his girlfriend, who is very weight conscious, as many women are, and he said something like, “awww honey, I actually like that you’re a little fat… those love handles and the cellulite turn me on!” Probably wouldn’t end well, right? So while you may actually think it’s admirable of yourself to like out-of-shape men and maybe deserve a pat on the back for it, you still have to be careful in the way that you would compliment them for it.
I don’t want your pat on my back, I was just trying to show how talking about attractive men is a half-taboo, just as giving compliments to fat women is a taboo too. I do try to be careful, that’s why I have the problem in the first place, instead of just going around and maybe insulting men just by calling them graceful. I do want my compliments to not become insults in the complimented person’s brain.
I was writing my comment in the hope of a continued discussion, and not, I repeat, not in hope of any pats in my back whatsoever.
and I was thinking just as much about talking about these attractive men with third parties as with the men themselves.
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“It just occured to me, re my comment above about teen hearthrobs being considered “feminine” or “gay” simply because they’re young and still have their “babyface”, that this is could also be the reason why (famous) men are often concidered to become more attractive with age while women are often seen to be “past their prime” at thirty or whatever. People are simply seen to look more “masculine” as they grow up and grow older, which of course is acceptable for a man, but not so for a woman.”
Chris, I think there is solid evidence for this. I saw a TV program that went into the importance of neotonous features – small mouths, large eyes, as features of female atractiveness in models. It showed for instance how when magazines want to sex up an image of a female model, they go in a retouch the image to make the eyes look larger and the mouths smaller. These are all juvenile traits and the point is that they read as “female” in the mass market. I don’t think it’s cultural either, because this kind of thing can be demonstrated across-culturally.
big eyes small mouth…
“Big Eyes, Small Mouth is a roleplaying game that was designed to simulate the action of anime and manga. It is frequently referred to by the acronym BESM. The title alludes to the common anime drawing style of characters with huge, expressive eyes and comparatively small mouths.”
Anime style tends to look more feminine, so much that guys drawn in that style without the whole super muscles are considered bishonen (or ‘pretty boys’).
@whoever, (nice handle btw),
I think for a continued discussion, might be a good idea to move over to an open thread before the mods get angry. You’re totally right though, it is taboo to compliment men. It’s nice to hear that you see some value in trying to find a way to do it.
Taboo to compliment men and the worship of teen idols, is there a relationship? When I pointed this out in another thread, it got lost in a flame war. Guys learn that their gender role is to bring girls flowers and write poetry to describe their beauty in clever and unique ways, but then they show up to school one day and witness a spectacle fit to shatter glass over men who they could never hope to be. I guess it goes without saying, in order to make a compliment believable, don’t spend all day shrieking over Lautner’s newly buff body and still expect for pretty much anything to go over well with a slightly pudgy guy.
I’ll offer a 100% authentic script compiled from my own life as a simplistic example of how I do it, and how women in my life get it all wrong.
her: So what kind of women do you like?
me: Gorgeous ones, like you.
her: Do you think I’m fat?
me: Absolutely not
her: But this morning I weighed x lbs…
me: You’re absolutely, breathtakingly beautiful, I wouldn’t change a thing
her: But don’t you think I’m getting fat?
me: No… I want you, let’s have sex
[later, a few minutes after she climaxed, as she's laying there grooming my hair]
her: You’re so strong… Have you been working out?
me: You know, the usual…
her: I just wish you weren’t starting to go bald…
me: uh…
her: Don’t you think Leonardo DiCaprio is hot?
Brilliant post!
Just one little objection. You say, “It’s a phenomenon as old as mass media.”
But it’s actually much older. In Tirso de Molina’s 1615 play “Don Gil of the Green Breeches”, a man who looks like a woman, who is gentle, whose voice is soft and who doesn’t have a beard gets crowds of women to dump their bearded, smelly and rough suitors and fall for him. The traditionally masculine suitors are baffled and profoundly hurt.
Different ways of performing masculinity always existed. And the female preference for non-traditional ways of being male (just like male preference for non-traditional ways of being female) were always perceived by many people as profoundly traumatic because it upset the rigid gender norms.
Yes, but is that a good thing or a bad thing? 1600′s men who were slated to work in the mines probably didn’t see much room in their lives to emulate Don Gil. One of the caveats about male gender roles is that even though women will go crazy and pass out at the sight of babyfaced hearthrobs, when they wake up they still expect men to fulfill the provider obligations and pay for stuff like food and shelter. And traditionally there just weren’t a lot of ways for men to be both babyfaced and ensure the survival of a family. And there still aren’t. There still aren’t a lot of ways for men to escape their rigid gender roles, even if they tried. One in a million might be able to, but the rest become “losers.”
@Noah
Veeery good article. If I understand them correctly, I actually agree the most with Flyingkal. I think this plays right into the Myth of Men Not Being Hot. The snark and erasue likely comes from full-blown jealousy. I think it would even work with Ozy’s examples of hot men dancing. There’s no Myth of Gay Men Not Being Hot. Ice-skaters, gender swapped coreography – even the Metrosexual parody needed to paste groupies into the video to stand beside the men who were winning at sexy. Men aren’t hot, so men who try to embrace the hotness or accidently walk into it get gay-bashed. To try and have a little heart for the bashers, they probably feel like they’ll be trapped in the Not Hot box their whole life, so when you trot out super pretty men and swarthy buff dancers it probably like a thread where people are complaining about power imbalances for women and someone drops in a picture of Queen Elizabeth and/or a dominatrix.
In response to Argyle’s link:
Funny. I don’t remember the issue where Power Girl wore nothing but a pair of teeny shorts. Poor PG, she gets so much hate and when people do their gender swaps, they come face to face with the fact that her costume isn’t that bad and/or doesn’t work on men . At least they didn’t move the boob window to the butt on this one. They want folks to deal with their sexism and then the swappers can’t deal with their own. It’s the Myth of Men Not Being Hot- you’ve got to strip a man all the way down to his shorts to equate to a leotard with a cleavage portal because, c’mon, nothing he’s got equates to breasts. Certainly not his, y’know, breasts… That he has. Man, it reminds me of when they blotted out that slender runway model’s breasts when they used him for the cover of their book because people were concerned viewers would mistake him for a woman and think they were seeing lady nipples.
In the same vein, Wonder Woman’s corset magically turned into armor, the ladies all put on makeup, Flash is making sure you can see more of her face and hairstyle, and I’d swear Superman’s showing a lot more shoulder than (s)he used to. Those are also completely not cool for the point I think these swaps could be better making.
Another long post of random personal anecdata, offered in the hopes of providing alternate perspectives and interpretations, but not necessarily Great Universal Truths; my experiences in no way invalidate anyone else’s. (/disclaimer)
RE: Women complimenting men, there are actually a *lot* of women who think about complimenting/want to compliment guys on their appearance; the problem is so many of us have gotten such negative reactions when we try to do so, it ends up leaving a gal tongue-tied. Even something like, “Let’s leave the light on, I like looking at you, you’re gorgeous” can send an evening straight to hell, unfortunately (been there, done that, been accused of “demasculinizing” or even mocking the individual in question by taking the male role and complimenting appearance, oy . . .).
It does seem to be a trend. I’ve written some amateur online erotica as a hobby, and one story (totally pandering to my own fantasies) featured a guy who was feeling down about his appearance but trying to hide it from his girlfriend. She realized what was up and proceeded to take him to bed, undress him, and then, starting at his feet, work her way up his body while telling him exactly what she found gorgeous and sexy about every inch of him. Hot sex ensued, happy ending, yay.
I posted and figured it probably wouldn’t get much of a response since it was what I felt to be such a personal kink — but I got an amazing number of responses from gals who kept saying things like, “OMG, I would so love to do this for my husband/BF/etc., but I know he wouldn’t let me, and I’m sad.”
Gender Role Catch 22, sucks for us all.
RE: Women/girls idolizing pop stars and such . . . as I was kinda talking about earlier, from what I’ve seen on the “inside” of a couple groups, there are aspects of both (willing, and often self-aware) fantasy and female bonding going on that (I know this might sound horrible, but it’s the clearest way I can think of to state it) often end up having next to nothing to do with sex — or even men — at all. Often, within a fan group, distinctions are clearly made between the fantasy object and the *real guys* that represent actual relationship material. More often than not, the latter is greatly preferred in actual life since they’re, well, real. I think there’s a conceptual separation going on that isn’t always clear to outsiders. That’s one reason married, gay, or gay *and* married/civil partnered idols can still attract fans. It’s also a reason why, sometimes, a gal will try to share her squee with her male partner, not always with good results. She thinks she’s being inclusive, he thinks she’s being insensitive.
Now, that doesn’t make it any less potentially hurtful to the guys who have no way of seeing that separation, and I think a lot of gals would do well to consider their behavior and how it makes their male compatriots feel. It’s expected that the guys in one’s life will diss the object of one’s fantasy affections horribly . . . but I don’t think there’s an understanding of the hurt feelings that can be going on underneath the expressed disdain, thanks to the cultural assumption that Guys Don’t Feel That Way (or, in its more brutal aspect, Guys Don’t Have Feelings). It’s also a great example of objectification being taken to ridiculous extremes, but again, people aren’t always socialized to consider male objectification as a negative thing.
OTOH, I’ve seen a few situations where a gal has a big celebrity crush that her guy tolerates with a good-natured eyeroll for the sheer fantasy hobby it is. So . . . I guess YMMV.
@Jay Generally, RE: the gender-bent superhero costumes . . . I don’t think the group’s goal was to simply put the guys in the girls’ outfits and vice-versa; there was a bit of tweaking involved to put a slightly more “male” or “female” twist on a particular outfit — which is something *I* find clever and very well-done, from a design perspective. RE: Power Guy’s outfit, I think the rationale was that Power Girl’s outfit really boils down to being, essentially, a sexy swimsuit:
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Kara_Zor-L_%28Earth-Two%29
Hence, Power Guy wears the equivalent, a pair of sexy swim trunks. Now, that’s just my interpretation, obviously, and I can’t speak for the designers. Also, clearly, YMMV on whether or not the translation attempt “works.” But hey, that’s what opinions are for.
@Kollege Messerschmitt:
I was thinking of him when I read this article. I especially think he’s an interesting example because Bill has an identical twin brother, who was also considered pretty hot (there was some seriously disturbing fanfiction written about those two), but dresses and styles himself differently, and he’s practically never subjected to the hate Bill is. Here’s an image for reference:
http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/6500000/-KaulitzTwins-tom-and-bill-kaulitz-6596668-401-570.jpg
@Gaius:
@Leo Salloum:
This reminds me of something I once said to a mixed group (quoting myself from memory): “It seems like what’s required of me to be successful as a woman is in opposition to what is required of me to be successful as a person”. What I meant was the qualities expected of me because of my sex, and the qualities likely to make me popular with guys, were often ineffective or downright worked against every other area in my life (academic success, health, friendship, respect).
The girls could relate, but none of the guys. To them, if you were successful in other areas (confident, smart, rich, in good shape, popular with guys, etc.), they seemed to consider it given that popularity with women would follow. Or at the very least, that those other successes would work to their advantage, not detriment. I’ve often wondered if the almost instinctive hostility some guys feel towards pretty boys is because they present a similar dilemma.
@Argyle
The premise of the thing is cute and funny. You’re right; It’s all opinions.
I hope I don’t sound like I’m jumping on you for linking something fun and (in my opinion) relevant to a discussion about how shaming what women like and what men do in response is counterproductive to giving boys and men avenues for being sexual. I’m sorry if I do.
I do have more to say in response to the link, but because I think I sound a bit Moby Dickish I went ahead and put it in the Open Thread (it’s in moderation.) My pet peeviness is not directed at you, and I don’t even mean to sound mad at the JL Gender Benders, who are actually doing something I’m really fond of. But that’s exactly why I get all laser laser-targeted critical of it.
I do feel nice and guilty that I can write pages of criticism but my compliments would boil down to ‘Hawt! Moar this.’ :/
AB:
The girls could relate, but none of the guys. To them, if you were successful in other areas (confident, smart, rich, in good shape, popular with guys, etc.), they seemed to consider it given that popularity with women would follow.
I wonder if this has to do with the figurative blinders that guys have put on us when it comes to being successful. As in if you look at the things that are required to be successful as a man you see that some of the also run opposite to things that are required to be successful as a person.f
Or at the very least, that those other successes would work to their advantage, not detriment. I’ve often wondered if the almost instinctive hostility some guys feel towards pretty boys is because they present a similar dilemma.
I think that hostility is a matter of seeing guys that are achieving success while existing outside the norm of “acceptable masculinity”. Which may be what you’re trying to say.
Totally busted the italicizing on that one.
AB:
The girls could relate, but none of the guys. To them, if you were successful in other areas (confident, smart, rich, in good shape, popular with guys, etc.), they seemed to consider it given that popularity with women would follow.
I wonder if this has to do with the figurative blinders that guys have put on us when it comes to being successful. As in if you look at the things that are required to be successful as a man you see that some of the also run opposite to things that are required to be successful as a person.
Or at the very least, that those other successes would work to their advantage, not detriment. I’ve often wondered if the almost instinctive hostility some guys feel towards pretty boys is because they present a similar dilemma.
I think that hostility is a matter of seeing guys that are achieving success while existing outside the norm of “acceptable masculinity”. Which may be what you’re trying to say.
Someone can delete that previous version.
“As in if you look at the things that are required to be successful as a man you see that some of the also run opposite to things that are required to be successful as a person.”
For example, the quickest way to money and status is being a cruel asshole (closing off shops every time someone mentions unions, like Wal-Mart does, for example, lest their employees actually get humane conditions and liveable wages). Not exactly humanitarian. And being altruist usually plays against that – while it makes you a good person.
@Argyle:
This is in line with my experiences. I’ve heard a lot about how women on gender blogs are different than average women, and in this case, I think perhaps the same is true for guys on gender blogs. The wish to be considered attractive in a specific and very traditionally female way seems to be a niche, not a general male preference.
@Danny:
Perhaps guys have those blinders, but in many cases, I think the situations really are different (though I’d be very interested in where you think the conflict lies for men). Historically, we’ve had a patriarchal culture were men were usually given more status, which resulted both in most high status behaviours and positions being ascribed to men, and many typically male behaviours being linked to high status.
Today, people are often pretty OK with women doing most of what men do (and somewhat OK men doing most of what women do, though there’s a longer way to go there), but the roles are still there. This means that behaviours labelled typically feminine, and therefore sexy, are often less likely to get you ahead (in terms of career, status, power, respect etc.), but women are still encouraged to display said traits, and sometimes punished if they don’t.
It’s interesting that the most common expression used to describe male equivalent of a female sex-object (even, or perhaps especially, by guys on progressive gender issue sites) is success-object. Women are complaining that there are two demands made of them (to be sex-objects and not to be sex-objects) which are in conflict with each other, while men are complaining that the one demand made of them (to be a success-object) has come to overshadow everything else.
Somewhat yes. It’s simpler if you know what’s expected of you. You score the winning goal in whatever sport you’re participating in, and you get praise and respect from your surroundings, and girls swooning over your masculinity. Be pretty, groom yourself more like a girl, and learn to dance, and you get mocked by much of your surroundings and have people speculate that you’re mentally ill, but increase your chances with a large subset of girls. The first gives you and easy goal to strive for, the latter puts different interests in conflict with each other (general popularity/status/acceptance vs. sex).
@AB – “I’ve heard a lot about how women on gender blogs are different than average women, and in this case, I think perhaps the same is true for guys on gender blogs. The wish to be considered attractive in a specific and very traditionally female way seems to be a niche, not a general male preference.”
Dunno about that — I’m willing to bet that guys on gender blogs are more likely to *express* that kind of desire, certainly. It’s sheer armchair psychiatrist speculation, but possibly some of the really emphatic, even angry, rejections of physical compliments I’ve seen/heard about might be related to a underlying desire to receive that kind of praise fighting with the desire to maintain “masculine” status, which leads to a stronger-than-necessary negation . . . Or I might be full of it and those compliments are genuinely disliked. I don’t know — but when someone is clearly made uncomfortable, or flat-out says, “Don’t talk to me like that!”, all you can do is respect their wishes and not try to second-guess their motivations.
Oh, lookie, made the same typo in my email address as before, and got the same alt!critter icon. At least I’m consistent. :/
I’ve been called cute before, pre-transition, I had to look non-plussed or like it was an insult, or I lost masculinity points. I did lose a lot of those though, because I spat on the script early enough.
AB:
Perhaps guys have those blinders, but in many cases, I think the situations really are different (though I’d be very interested in where you think the conflict lies for men).
By blinders I mean things like that cutthroat attitudes, giving up family time for career, etc…
Historically, we’ve had a patriarchal culture were men were usually given more status, which resulted both in most high status behaviours and positions being ascribed to men, and many typically male behaviours being linked to high status.
But that more status came at the cost of extremely destructive behaviors. Like take ambition and its extreme cousin ruthlessness. A lot of people ascribe ambition to men but at the same time people ascribe ruthlessness to men as well.
Think of the genders like race car drivers. While it is true that women drivers have had their cars sabotaged, keys stolen, and who knows what else to keep them from taking off its often ignored that men drivers are run passed the point of safety where wear and tear, exhaustion, and fatigue set in.
Today, people are often pretty OK with women doing most of what men do (and somewhat OK men doing most of what women do, though there’s a longer way to go there), but the roles are still there. This means that behaviours labelled typically feminine, and therefore sexy, are often less likely to get you ahead (in terms of career, status, power, respect etc.), but women are still encouraged to display said traits, and sometimes punished if they don’t.
That plus men still being encouraged to display traits that are known to be destructive, damaged be damned. And those traits are often labeled as typically masculine.
It’s interesting that the most common expression used to describe male equivalent of a female sex-object (even, or perhaps especially, by guys on progressive gender issue sites) is success-object. Women are complaining that there are two demands made of them (to be sex-objects and not to be sex-objects) which are in conflict with each other, while men are complaining that the one demand made of them (to be a success-object) has come to overshadow everything else.
Even with that tally bear in mind the fact that that one demand is still relatively new ground. And apparently that one demand has cause a lot of destruction, well at least according to some parts of gender theory at least.
I was just reminded of this hilarious set of vintage 90s boy band pics: http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/reasons-why-boybands-were-better-in-the-90s
It’s worth reminding ourselves just how silly and kitschy some of this stuff was – every bit as WTF as Britney Spears in a Catholic schoolgirl outfit, posing slinkily on a wall of lockers. Oh the questionable taste we all had when we were 15…
Please, please remove the Bieber image. It’s actually seriously creepy and borderline child porn.
@Danny:
I don’t think it’s new, it seems to be have been around for a while. Anyway, I’m not trying to play the Oppression Olympic with you, and I’m not trying to deny that the gendered expectations on men have often been detrimental to their physical and mental health (and everyone else’s for that matter). All I’m saying is that the dilemma I have experienced many girls and women express, the contrast between being successful as a woman (especially romantically) and being successful in general, is not very present in the traditional male gender role.
Hence the complaint “In order to be successful with women, you have to be so damn successful”. The general success and the gendered success (including the romantic one) are usually presented as one and the same. But that changes when the traits that will make a man popular with women (sexually) start to contrast with what will make him respected in society and among other men. And I think that’s part of the reason for the hostility, that the sexual ideal is suddenly not achievable without a social (and in some case, professional and practical) cost.
AB:
I don’t think it’s new, it seems to be have been around for a while.
In rereading I actually said that wrong.
Even with that tally bear in mind the fact that that one demand is still relatively new ground.
should have been
Even with that tally bear in mind the fact that talking about that one demand is still relatively new ground.
As in the new ground isn’t the demand itself but conversation about that demand (and calling it for what it is).
(Who said anything about Oppression Olympics?)
@Danny:
Probably. I just don’t see why it’s relevant to what I said.
@Jay Generally — whoops! Sorry, missed this comment of yours, don’t want you to think I was refusing to reply or anything . . .
“I hope I don’t sound like I’m jumping on you for linking something fun and (in my opinion) relevant to a discussion about how shaming what women like and what men do in response is counterproductive to giving boys and men avenues for being sexual. I’m sorry if I do.
The premise of the thing is cute and funny. You’re right; It’s all opinions.’
Oh, hey, no worries, I didn’t think that at all. And just because I like something doesn’t mean I think it’s immune from criticism.
“I do have more to say in response to the link, but because I think I sound a bit Moby Dickish I went ahead and put it in the Open Thread (it’s in moderation.) My pet peeviness is not directed at you, and I don’t even mean to sound mad at the JL Gender Benders, who are actually doing something I’m really fond of. But that’s exactly why I get all laser laser-targeted critical of it.”
I understand. It’s why fans of a show or sports team or whatever can spend *hours* picking away at and hashing over the flaws in their favorite thing . . . without losing their love of it in the first place. Been there, done that.
“I do feel nice and guilty that I can write pages of criticism but my compliments would boil down to ‘Hawt! Moar this.’ :/’
Eh, that’s always a problem. When you really like or agree with something, it can be hard to come up with anything more than, “this is great!”, but serious criticism takes more verbiage.
As in it seeming like its overshadowing only because the conversation on it went from nearly non-existent to suddenly there.
Regarding that link. I’ve always wondered about that James Deen character. He didn’t look like your average pornstar (how did this lost looking jewish kid find himself on a porn set). I always thought he had a story to tell. Turns out he does.
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Why is that Bieber picture still up and why do you not answer people who ask for it to be taken down? We’re all familiar with this kind of shite, because we are all on the internet, But that picture, showing a grown-up man raping/having anal intercourse with Justin Bieber, who looks like he is in pain, has NOTHING TO DO ON THIS BLOG. Come on! Admit you were wrong putting it there in the first place and take it the fuck away. It’s not even funny. It does not convey a point, other than haters gonna hate on both Bieber and Twiligt, and you know, you could have just written that.
Yes, I know I’m a reader and shouldn’t purport to tell the writer what to write, but shit fucking hell that … fuck this. I’m out of words, and resorting to swearing in French at my desk.
@Martha Joy
It does not convey a point, other than haters gonna hate on both Bieber and Twiligt, and you know, you could have just written that.
It illustrates, unambiguously, exactly what the article is talking about. I’m kind of inured to that sort of idea, because I browse Youtube.
On the other hand, Noah has been accused of deliberately riling up readers.
Thinking about “haters gonna hate”….. it’s true, and possibly the verbal hatred is amplified online.
However, what gets hated changes from time to time.
In re the demands on men vs. the demands on women: I’ve heard a theory [1] that men are held to a single impossible standard (for example, having a high-powered career while also doing all the home repairs themselves) while women are subject to conflicting demands that can’t be fulfilled even in theory (being the perfect light-touch mother and the perfect disciplinarian).
[1] I’ve got two good books about social standards which lead to high levels of shame: _Compassion and Self-Hate_ by Theodore Rubin and _I Thought It Was Just Me (but it isn’t)_ by Brene Brown. The Rubin book is theoretically about everybody, but is stronger about the standards which mostly affect men, the Brown book is explicitly about women, but includes the results of a little research about men. I’ve found both of them to be useful, but the Rubin book more so.
The author of _Perfect Girls, Starving Daughters_ includes some blame of the feminism of the girls’ mothers, but I couldn’t quite get clear on what the issue was.
Here’s my guess: part of that feminism was the idea that it’s good for women to be ambitious, a natural reaction to the previous idea that women should have no ambitions outside the household. [1] However, it’s one thing to have a strongly felt personal ambition, and another to be told that one ought to be ambitious.
If you ought to be ambitious, but you don’t have an ambition, what do you do? You seek status, and for that generation of girls, part of status included being much thinner than was natural for the vast majority of them.
One of the more chilling bits in the book was about the girls who are hurting themselves with excessive exercise, and it’s not because they like the sports, and it’s not because they want to win, it’s because they’re proving they’re good people by pushing themselves.
Have there been any threads here about men and exercise?
****
A general theory about perfectionism: Karen Horney (an early psychoanalyst) believed that if a child is abused, neglected, or over-manipulated, then they conclude that being a human being isn’t good enough, and they invent an inhuman standard in the hopes of being good enough– standards include always winning, always being right, always being helpful. The standards can be anything, and one person can hold contradictory standards.
I don’t know whether Horney got into socially shaped standards, but it occurs to me that parents who are hooked by socially approved perfectionism are likely to transmit it to their children.
[1] _The Frailty Myth_ is about women and exercise, and it includes a lot about the Victorian ideal for upper class women– the ideal included something close to physical immobility.
Not really sure why I’m nitpicking this, but I keep looking at that sentence and seeing two standards that are both unrealistic and conflicting. And I’d throw on top of it that men are also supposed to be “financially responsible” by providing for the well-being of a family (i.e. being able to save) while being expected to buy diamond rings, bring home flowers, and go around town wining and dining various floozies in hopes that one will eventually “settle” for him. Then, in order to be good “feminist allies,” they not only have to work all day, do the home repairs, but also take care of 50% of the dishes and diaper changes – otherwise they’re chauvinist pigs. So… a single standard…?
while women are subject to conflicting demands that can’t be fulfilled even in theory (being the perfect light-touch mother and the perfect disciplinarian).
Oddly, I not only see this as realistic, but as a bare minimum requirement for an entry-level parent of either sex. Not just mothers… it applies to fathers just the same. Not beating the shit out of your kids is not a theoretically impossible demand that conflicts with the desire to raise well-behaved kids.
As an outsider, this seems to be the single biggest question that feminists have asked of themselves and criticized feminism on. I’ve often wondered about the nature of this question. Why is it, for example, that the default for a “non ambitious” woman is to be a housewife? Some of the most competitive, status-seeking women I have ever met in my life were housewives. Why is it that anything that has to do with a desire to please men, such as being beautiful, is seen as an extremely negative trait, possibly a psychological disorder?
These are questions I have asked myself as a man. Because as a man, I have no “default” position if I’m not ambitious and don’t want to work – homelessness, maybe, if you consider that an option. And as a man, if I don’t focus on being a perfect little husband, someone is going to come along and call me an irresponsible “man-child.”
So I often wonder, what would life be like as a man if, by doing nothing at all, by having no ambition whatsoever, I could just be a happily married father, supported by a loving wife who takes care of everything “outside the home” for me.
I know I’ve written this before, and I know this is an old post, but could you PLEASE remove or replace the first picture of Bieber? It’s not only offensive, but potentially illegal.
@Monkey, I think they already noted that. I don’t know about the legal status of that pic, but I’m pretty sure it’s okay because it is a) photoshopped, b) under “fair use”, and c), not really graphic… just suggestive.
Incidentally, IMO, this is an activist post denouncing the image. In the past, feminist anti-porn activists had gotten away with murder when it comes to violating copyright laws and reporting requirements when creating their derivative materials. So I think that as worried as you are about it, nothing’s actually going to happen here…
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“Incidentally, IMO, this is an activist post denouncing the image. In the past, feminist anti-porn activists had gotten away with murder when it comes to violating copyright laws and reporting requirements when creating their derivative materials. So I think that as worried as you are about it, nothing’s actually going to happen here…”
I don’t think a judge would make that distinction. In any case, comment or not it’s an offensive (and indeed potentially triggering) image.
@Noah: “This phenomenon can be seen as an example of our profound societal commitment to the Myth of Men Not Being Hot. Men are definitely not hot, so we will find any other explanation necessary.”
Yes! Thank you! If women just found us hot, instead of essentially “selling themselves” for some value only we could provide them, then the whole pack… uh… of… lies men believe… um… about having to “earn” love, affection, sex, etc. would collapse and society would… er… lose one of it’s biggest levers for dominating men.
Instead women like men for all and not just some of the same reasons men like women.
figleaf
@chrislittlesun:
“It could also be that teenage girls are more likely to be attracted to guys their own age (or who at least look their own age). Another word sometimes used for this guys is “babyface”, and guys who look like this generally look more like tetenage boys (if they’re not actually teenagers) than guys with more “masculine” features.”
Along those lines…I think there’s a general trend in our culture to sexually idealize people who look rather pre-pubescent. When it comes to hetero male attraction to women, this trend has been widely recognized in feminist circles. The current idealized standard for female beauty right now is women who shave their pubic hair and are so thin that they have no curves (obviously not all men subscribe to this standard, but it is the one that’s been depicted in mass media as the ‘ideal’ to be aspired to for at least the past 10 years or so–and I haven’t seen pubic hair on a female porn star since the ’80s). I think it’s possible that we’re seeing the same trend when it comes to female attraction to men. It’s not that these “androgynous” men are non-threatening, it’s that they resemble children. And when it comes to teenage fangirls, it’s totally understandable (and, arguably, preferable) that they’re attracted to men who appear to be their own age. But when it comes to a general cultural trend to idealize child-like features as the sexual ideal, then perhaps we have a problem. I dunno, I’d like to hear what other people think about this theory.