So I was reading this lovely Charlie Glickman piece about listening to Robert Jensen give a talk about how porn is a guy thing that’s bad for men, and how his own reaction to much of it was utter WTF. Now, Glickman’s too good a writer to phrase his criticism in quite those terms, and in particular he goes to some pains to be as fair to Jensen as possible. There’s still this yawning gulf of disconnection, though, lots of places where Glickman admits he has no idea how Jensen is constructing and prioritizing his ideas. The money quote, for me, is this: “It isn’t clear to me, though, why he left pleasure out of his list of things that we might want from sexuality.”
The respectful bafflement there is very telling, to my eyes, and it mirrors a similar bafflement I’ve seen in a lot of other places. I think there is an enormous, rarely-bridged communication gap between people of varying libidos, and I think it tends to result in conversations where both parties are talking completely past each other without realizing it.
Let me start by clarifying what I mean by varying libidos. Different people have different levels of horniness, and different ways of expressing that. For some people, sex is a relatively low priority; not getting off in their preferred manner is like giving up smoking or eating pork–maybe less fun, but not that big a deal. For others, sex is a very high priority indeed; not getting off is like giving up breathing or eating food–a seriously unacceptable plan. In between, you’ve got a whole spectrum of complex interactions of desire, which is, from a humanist perspective, totally awesome. Where this scale comes from is interesting, but not relevant to the subject at hand. A weird mix of biology, socialization, formative experience, and a visit from the Libido Fairy, perhaps.
Now, some will point out that I’m leaving out compulsive sex addicts from the high end of this scale, and leaving out asexuals from the low end. (Note: I am not trying to equate asexuals with people suffering from an addiction. It does not work the same, as far as I’m aware.) I’m leaving them off for a reason: those groups of people are aware that they’re outliers. They know that most folks don’t share their particular drives, and they deal with that in their own ways.
What’s key to this understanding is that everyone on that libido spectrum assumes they’re normal. It’s the Typical Mind Fallacy cranked up until the knobs snap off. It’s that blasted quote from Annie Hall about a guy and a girl who are having the same amount of sex and he thinks it’s too little and she thinks it’s too much. (I say “blasted” because that quote reinforces the idea that women aren’t that into sex and men are constantly horny, which is horseshit.) Therefore, if I’m normal, everyone who’s more or less horny than I am must be abnormal. It’s the old joke: A prude is someone who gets laid less than you, and a slut is someone who gets laid more than you.
Because of the weird blind spots in the ways our culture talks about sex, most people never really grasp that there’s a lot of variance in libido out there. That, combined with the Typical Mind Fallacy, means that most of us are working from some very wrong assumptions. I myself, when I hear about someone who’s happily monogamous with a single person, have to restrain myself from going “Yeah, but… really? I mean, you’re not really happy, are you?” I would not be comfortable in such an arrangement, therefore obviously no one else is either, right? And again, that’s from someone who knows that’s wrong.
Now, let’s look at feminism for a second. One of the deepest and longest-running schisms within the feminist movement has been, to oversimplify just a notch, the sex-positive vs. sex-negative fight. In the form of a brief dialogue, it’d look a bit like this:
Neg: …and we will be liberated from the bonds of economic oppression!
Pos: Yeah!
Neg: We will be liberated from having our own identities defined by others!
Pos: Hell yeah!
Neg: We will be liberated from having to pretend we like sex!
Pos: Y… wait, what?
Neg: You know, all that stuff about having to have sex to please men. We can stop doing it.
Pos: I don’t want to stop doing it. I actually kinda want to be free to do more of it. Also with women. And with myself. And combinations of the above.
Neg: It is completely alien to me that you would make sex such a high priority. I have no model to explain this, other than to assume you are brainwashed by the patriarchy.
Pos: …I brainwashed your mom’s patriarchy.
Obviously, from there the conversation does not go anywhere productive.
The flaw here is partly the flaw in so much gender thinking, the conceptualization of Men and Women as two monolithic, homogeneous groups. Thus, if any given woman thinks a thing, such as “I am tired of being pressured for sex when I’m just not that into it” then obviously All Women must think the same thing. Nobody quite sets out to model things that way, but damn, it keeps on happening, doesn’t it? There is something profoundly Manichaean in human cognition, and it tends to lead us into error.
The key issue about this dichotomy is that both sides have a hard time understanding the other’s premises, just as Glickman struggled to understand what the heck Jensen was basing his assumptions on. Thus, we have Pat Califia in 1981, with her seminal article “Feminism and Sadomasochism”, in which she answered the question “Why would any liberated woman want to be tied up and whipped?” with, basically, “Honey, if you have to ask, you ain’t never gonna know.”
Today we have the exact same conversation going on, with Naomi Wolf (who I do respect) and Gail Dines (who can take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut) still saying “Yeah, but Women aren’t really into that kinky stuff, that’s just something Men like.” Thirty years, zero progress in this conversation. Hell, even feminists like Ozy and me have been dismissed by some of Twisty Faster’s fans as “sexpozzies”, a derisive slur I had never previously heard, and in which I probably take too much delight.
That said, I don’t want to dismiss the sex-negative crew’s viewpoint out of hand. If sex is just not that high a priority for you, the constant barrage of sexual imagery in culture, the constant messages that sex is what defines you, that’s got to feel incredibly alienating. If you only masturbate occasionally and aren’t really into the freaky stuff, the rise of the Infinite Porn Machine, or the internet as some people call it, has got to look very weird indeed. Why the hell would people put this much time and energy and money into something that’s just not a big deal? The answer, of course, is that it is a big deal to them, but there we walk straight into the same old fallacy: I’m normal, you’re weird, let’s construct models to explain why you’re weird.
This lack of comprehension is very much a men’s issue, of course. Just that we tend to gender the same conflict in societally-taught male terms. Speaking personally, I’m a horny bastard, no denying it. I prioritize sex very highly, and I’m very much okay with that. So when I hear male friends talk about how they’re not really looking to date anyone right now, that’s gibberish to me. I cannot understand it. It’s very, very tempting for me to start thinking “Well, he’s a loser. He couldn’t hack it in the dating world, so he’s just punking out and giving up.” Not because I actually believe that, but because growing up male, I was taught to think of things in terms of winners and losers, and that it was bad, reprehensible, unmasculine to be a loser. I have to actively fight that programming, as do a lot of guys, I think.
At the same time, my friend is probably fighting the impulse to look at me as a dumb horny bastard, a two-bit Lothario who spends all his time chasing girls instead of doing something useful or productive. (A vicious lie: I can’t afford two bits.) That, too, is another male stereotype, another model of dysfunction created to explain why someone is different from ourselves. Again, I’m normal, you’re weird, let’s construct models to explain why you’re weird.
And boy howdy, do we internalize these models. Horny guys like me often feel like we’re sex-crazed beasts, inflicting our unwelcome penises on a world that barely tolerates us. Less-horny guys often feel like failures of masculinity, like they’re supposed to have lush Frazetta women clinging to their legs, or at least to want that more than they do. Both these things are bullshit, but we don’t have a good societal vocabulary to talk about them.
Here in the Social Justice League, the vague coalition of everyone-deserves-a-fair-shake terminology nerds that resembles nothing so much as the broke-ass low-rent version of The Culture, we’ve been working for a while on developing better ways of communicating about the things we’re bad at communicating about. We do skew kinda hard toward the sex-positive end of the spectrum, but then that may just be my perspective, from where I stand in the SJL.
What we need to let ourselves do is acknowledge that sex is a big deal for some people, and really not a big deal for others. We need to get better at saying “Eh, that’s not really my thing, but if you like it, rock on with your cock on” and meaning it. Otherwise, we will only continue to be opaque to each other. We will miss the enormous pain in someone who would really like to get some, but isn’t. We will miss the pain in someone who doesn’t want to have sex but feels obligated to. We will miss all the people who can’t reconcile the contradiction between their utterly filthy fantasies and the social role they find themselves in. Understanding can only arise from acknowledging our mutual incomprehension.
I don’t generally agree with the sex-negative crew, but I do think the way we view sex has historically been centered on male pleasure, and that has colored the way both men and women still tend to approach it. I mean, the female orgasm was considered a myth by many up until recently, and most people still tend to define sex as Insert Tab A Into Slot B, which apparently the majority of women (and some men, I’m sure) don’t come from alone. Women are still encouraged to be sexy, rather that sexual, and men still are expected to always want to get laid. We still get all these messages from our increasingly pornified world about the way sex should be, and I think that still has a pretty big impact on our behaviors.
Wow, this is extremely insightful and articulate. Great post!
I am absolutely enthralled by that article, Noah. I’ll Have fun reading it this evening.
Also this?
I’m really glad I’m in the privacy of my empty apartment because I laughed like a fiend.
Anyway, as a woman with an extremely high libido, on the one hand I’m am highly aware of my firm place as the “other” and the “wierd” one. After all, women don’t really like sex blah blah blah sexual marketplace blah blah blah don’t be a slut, respect yourself blah. But I also have been that asshole looking at my friend like she had two heads when she talked about dating for someone for four years and never having sex with him, or purposefully not having much sex in her current relationship because she wanted it to be “meaningful” and not “just about sex” as if those two things were mutually exclusive. And yea, looking back on it, I really did act like an asshole.
But as for that article…. So far I’m really creeped out by the “us vs. them” othering he created between men and women, or women and women who don’t conform to stereotypes. It just… i dunno. Gives me the heeby-jeebys.
mayfly -
Where on earth are you getting the idea that the female orgasm was, until recently, a myth? Until relatively recently in history, the overwhelmingly popular biological theory in the West (if such a strong word as theory can be applied to the idea) was that women had the same genitals as men, just inside out, and that their orgasms were just as necessary to procreation as men’s; their seed simply went into their body with men’s, and mingled. (As compared to the popular fictionalization of historical views of sex, that the woman was just a vessel in which the man’s seed grew.)
This puts into words something I’ve felt for a while now. Another interesting thing that has intrigued me is the use of sex in controlling behavior, a la 1984, as I’m sure there are things repressed for a social rather than moral reason. Finally the fact the the debate end in a “yo momma” joke made me laugh and facepalm at the same time.
Hmm, perhaps I’m wrong about the female orgasm being considered a myth, but I still stand by sex being historically defined by male pleasure. From The Technology of Orgasm by Rachel Maines:
The androcentric definition of sex as an activity recognizes three essential steps: preparation for penetration (“foreplay”), penetration, and male orgasm. Sexual activity that does not involve at least the last two has not been popularly or medically (and for that matter legally) regarded as “the real thing.” The female is expected to reach orgasm during coitus, but if she does not, the legitimacy of the act as “real sex” is not thereby diminished. That more than half of all women, possibly more than 70 percent, do not regularly reach orgasm by means of penetration alone has been brought to our attention by researchers such as Alfred Kinsey and Shere Hite, but the fact was known, if not well publicized, in previous centuries. This majority of women have traditionally been defined as abnormal or “frigid,” somehow derelict in their duty to reinforce the androcentric model of satisfactory sex.
More at http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/maines-technology.html
Oh, and more from the same:
Before the middle of this century, even in literature, references to female orgasm are conspicuous by their absence, even from works purportedly built around sexual subject matter. In the development of Western medical thought on the subject of sexuality, it has been thought both reasonable and necessary to the social support of the male ego either that female orgasm be treated as a by-product of male orgasm or that its existence or significance be denied entirely.
I’m not a historian, though, so perhaps you have some conflicting sources?
I also forgot to say I have big applause for the last paragraph of Noah’s piece especially.
Mayfly -
I’m a Cracked addict, so I already knew where to look:
http://www.robinwolfe.com/victorian-porn-friday-13/#more-183
“Her sighs of pleasure were not only echoed by my own” is a pretty clear reference to female orgasm.
The conspicuous absence is a result of relatively recent censorship.
Thanks– excellent article!
I have a notion that the Typical Mind Fallacy is amplified by an assumption that you’ll only get decent treatment if you’re “normal”, so the assumption that one is normal isn’t just ignorance, it’s cemented in place by the fear of what might be done to you if you aren’t “normal”.
I think there’s much more nuance with the sex-positive/ radical feminism and it’s rather problematic to imply this is all about libido. Even where it is, is possible to be both extremely horny, as a man or a woman, and be disinclined towards monogamy, not to enjoy to pornography, not to enjoy being objectified and so on – just as some people with low sex-drives can be into that stuff, just only on the full moon. Libido isn’t a sliding scale of horniness along which certain activities become desirable. I think the “different ways of expressing that” is far more important than the “different levels of horniness” when it comes to that stuff.
However, beyond all this, I may be deeply naive but I think most feminists land on their particular position through reason. Obviously, if you personally enjoy something, you’re unlikely to be against it and it’s easier to object to things that gross you out a bit. But then if you are a reasonable and moral person, you’re going to make sure that the things you enjoy aren’t causing anybody any (non-consensual) harm, and that you’re not trying to stop people doing harmless things just because they make you feel queasy.
Of course, I meant inclined towards monogamy, not disinclined. Sorry.
You know how people like to make these models of human sexuality, like this dot here represents homosexuality, and that dot over there is monogamy, and if you follow the lines you go toward polyamory, et cetera?
Well I think it looks more like this:
http://www.dekunsten.net/images/59lg.jpg
Or possibly this:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRs9BkObtT32Twg5rq9GA3VR_CjeGWJ0DZUZWpzqIASreKTUnqGWm5xGRtf
Pos: …I brainwashed your mom’s patriarchy.
This was the only part of that exchange that actually surprised me. I would have just ending with the usual “???” or “W. T. F.”. Thanks for mixing it up.
mayfly:
I don’t generally agree with the sex-negative crew, but I do think the way we view sex has historically been centered on male pleasure, and that has colored the way both men and women still tend to approach it.
A very narrow, damaging, range of male pleasure. A range that is basically drilled into our heads to get us to believe “male pleasure” is drilling her until you feel the tingling sensation.
Thank you for this article, it means so much for me.
I was forced to learn this the hard way. I am naturally a woman with a very high libido and over the years I came to think about my sexuality as one of my defining characteristics (as you probably do). A couple of years ago I started taking medicine, which completely destroyed my sex drive. It was horrible. I felt like someone lobotomized me and surgically removed a part of my personality, and for a while I had a major identity crisis as a result.
One of the hardest things I had to deal with was the way things that didn’t used to bother me before, suddenly started bothering me. For instance – I used to like porn. Now it troubles me in a deep emotional level that I cannot even understand. I used to be less monogamous, now I can’t think about other men. I used to fuck for hours and have screaming orgasms, now I can’t have orgasms at all. I used to feel sexy and like feeling sexy, now I am awkward and uncomfortable about it. I don’t masturbate any more.
This new state forced me to look at things from a different perspective. I understand sex negs – I am now, against my will, one of them. I understand “pozzies” – I was one of you.
But it took me a while and it was a long and painful process. As you said – I had to rethink my assumptions on what is normal, and learn to accept that it is OK to be the woman I’ve become. Learn that it is legitimate not to want sex, legitimate to be troubled by porn, legitimate to be “a prude”.
I have to say that your blog was one of the major resources that helped me go through it, so thank you for that.
@ apileofilth
I’d first like to say that I am really sorry for what you have gone and are going through. That sounds horrible, and I hope things go well for you.
I would like to ask a clarification on this;
Why do you now identify yourself as sex negative? I know many people who are asexual or minimally sexual who still identify as sex positive. Is it because of the (understandable) criticisms that the sex positive movement doesn’t seem to leave a whole lot of room for people who aren’t very interested in sex at all?
Because what I understand about sex positivity vs sex negativity is that us sex pozzies believe that sex can be a very good thing, and that everyone should be able to identify their sexuality in a way that best suits themselves without judgement from anyone. Sex negativity, from what I understand it seems to think that there is a “right” way and a “wrong” way when it comes to sexuality and that is generally a force that is damaging and dangerous.
Do you feel that that is accurate? Or am I way off base?
@Shora
It’s complicated. I don’t identify as sex-negative as much as I can identify with the kind of feelings that lead to this approach.
I always say that there are things you know “in your mind” and things you know “in your guts”, and if once both my mind and guts told me that sex-positivism is the right thing to believe and the right way of life for me, now I know it only in my mind.
Take porn, for example – yes, I think that if people want to make or consume porn, all the power to them. But I can’t help feeling bad when I think about porn, and I suspect that had I grown up feeling this way, it would have been much-much harder for me to hold the position that it should be allowed in general.
@apileofilth
Thank you for the clarification! That actually makes a lot of sense to me when you put it that way.
As a gay man, i would like to express just how much I hate hate hate</b it when feminists who critique porn ignore gay porn. Jensen’s choice to gloss over gay porn wouldn’t bug me so much if every single feminist critique I’ve encountered didn’t do it too. Is gay male porn inherently degrading like they say straight porn is? Does gay porn even exist, given that porn is defined as “sex in the context of male domination of females”? Are male performers in porn treated badly? Are male performers exploited?
I find a lot of the feminist critiques of straight porn very interesting, but I’m not sure how or if they apply to me. Some of the critiques seem like they could very easily apply to gay porn, but do they? I don’t know. I’m especially curious about exploitation and abuse in the porn I watch, as I’d like to avoid that if possible (I refuse to watch bareback for that reason).
Huh.
Leum, I say this with great shock and dismay: I never even thought about the issues you just raised. And that’s a problem.
@apileoffilth
You have my absolute sympathy.
The same thing happened to me with one of my psyche meds and I felt the same way, like I’d been lobotomized. (It didn’t help that it also stopped my mind from racing.) I was fortunate enough to find an alternative medication after a fairly short time. For me tho, I started producing more sexual artwork and watching more sexual media because… well, before that I didn’t really need that stuff. I had plenty of it in my own head, non stop. It was like I needed porn to remind me what sex looked like. Then after the correction I went back to hardly ever watching hard-core erotica.
I think that’s where my sympathy for the genuinely sex-negative fails a bit. I don’t really bother to look at most of what they’re talking about because of simple lack of interest. So maybe I don’t see the really horrible stuff they do or… can’t understand why they don’t ignore it.
Awesome post and a nice article. Whew, the comments on that article, though. o.O A fantastic reminder of why I used to never comment online.
I agree there should be more understanding the levels of desires for sex and interest in sex vary. But many of the sex negatives aren’t just ‘not positive,’ they really are outright negative. And it’s not just against sex, but also things perceived as sexual that are pointed out as automatic detractors. Sexiness is seen as something that makes any work base, shallow, unintelligent, unenlightened, purile, boorish, sexist, threatening, oppressive, or whatever one’s preferred term is for ‘thing that isn’t the way I want it to be.’ I don’t think it’s always confusion about priorities, but outright demonization of the sex positive that causes a lot of this strife. The narrative seems to go “well since sex scares me, but lack of sex doesn’t scare you, everything has to default to a sexless state and then marked as more and more dangerous the closer we get to sex.” From G to XXX, in other words. They use the same mark for adult material that they use for poison. .
And it’s all a base lie, anyway. Life does not default to a sexless state and a lack of sex does scare me. And I don’t just mean me not getting laid. Backstreet abortions, STD’s, teenage pregnancy, diseases, domestic violence, sexual violence, homophobia, sexual anxiety- silence and mystery foment these situations. Women have the madonna/whore paradigm and men have a horndog/enlightened grown-up problem of their own
And porn? Porn, porn, porn… Yeah, I remember when porn wasn’t quite so extreme and pervasive, but I also remember being able to see a little nudity in a PG movie without everyone having a moral seizure. I honestly believe the more you force under the domain of smut and pornography, more you empower smut and pornography. Pornography is the new Victorian prostitute: cheap, tawdry, mistreated, desperate, uneducated, impoverished, and everywhere. Why? Well, because a gentleman would never subject his wife to such bestial pursuits. I really don’t watch all that much of it though so I admit my comment should be read with heaps of salt, but that’s just it. I have a lot of sex in what I read, watch, play, draw, talking about with my friends, do with my wife – and I don’t care about double-Vag, double-anal or what the heck ever. Who’s the poster-child for too much porn? Creepy Basement Virgin, who gets no nothing from nowhere, and is the go to card for manshaming.
Hi Leum, that bothered me, too.
“Understanding can only arise from acknowledging our mutual incomprehension.”
This. This times a large number. Also, thank you, Noah, for another good article.
I recently commented on another NSWATM article and touched on the topic of dominant/subordinate groups, and how membership in either group tends to lead to sensitivity or insensitivity to a particular topic.
I think a lot of our miscommunication comes from the idea that we think, deep down, everybody really does agree with us. The pro-choice crowd really honestly believes the pro-life crowd knows, deep down, that they’re restricting womens rights. Theists really honestly believe that atheists, know, deep down, that God really does exist. Same for the reverse.
Understanding and respecting that people really do see things differently, and that there is no impartial judge to give a final verdict, has helped me communicate a bit better with others.
As far as libido goes, I think “Respect everyones sexual identity” needs to be a new commandment.
I don’t really have anything too important to add to the conversation, just to say that asexuality isn’t about having a low libido. Many asexual people actually have active libidos, it just isn’t directed towards any person (as the definition of asexual is “a person who does not experience sexual attraction”). Of course, there are asexual people who don’t have a libido as well.
(I also realize you probably just meant “people not interested in sex” which pretty much does cover asexual people, though)
@ Leum
I’ve thought about that myself, mostly because as a submissive male the larger majority of feminism was mostly ignoring the submissive male too. (It’s not quite so rare a topic as it use to be tho.’ But hey, sometimes when people talk about you they say bad things so… double-edged sword, I guess.)
I have read and heard a lot of women, up to and including (maybe even especially) lesbians, claim that they exclusively watch gay male porn because it’s the only ‘pure’ porn since its by men, for men, in a man’s world sort of thing, so they can relax just knowing everyone’s happy. Which is a great way to moralize fetishizing gay men, erase female agency, erase the male perspective of ‘gay-for’pay’ as some sort of excuse to stay in the closet, erase the possibility of victimhood for men in the porn industry, and imply men completely lack cross-gender empathy,
. I don’t think I’d really call that a ‘feminist’ perspective as much as I’d call it a stupid one. Every time I hear a woman just honestly admit ‘Cuz two hot guys,” I want to applaud.
In my darker and more bitter moments I have wondered in the past if it’s because some of them don’t consider men human enough to feel guilty about what they would feel guilty about happening to a woman. But I don’t want to be all misogynistic and accusatory here; in my darker, more bitter moments, before I got out there and started having fun and meeting like-minded people, I wondered if I was a submissive male for the same reason.
Jay: That’s a good point, one that I missed. I’d be willing to bet that the submissive straight male population is comparable in size to the gay male population, and that if good straight male-sub porn was as accessible as good vanilla gay porn*, would consume porn with their kink at roughly the same rates as gay men. But the only feminists I’ve seen critique straight male-sub porn are sex-positive feminists (generally for paying far more attention to the domme versus almost no attention to the sub). The sex-negative feminists ignore it, presumably because it violates their paradigm even more than gay porn.
*I’m assuming vanilla gay porn is easier to find and obtain, but I could be wrong. I haven’t exactly gone looking
OP:
I am not sure if I agree that this is necessarily an effect of growing up male. I have had many disparaging comments like that after I chose to opt out of dating and sex – and most of those comments were by women.
Personally, I have always had trouble understanding people who regard sex as a basic human need – after all, unlike food and water and oxygen, people can go for years or decades or an entire life without sex. I think I applied the typical mind fallacy in a sort of inverted fashion, in that I always thought that I must be the abnormal one. I do not view myself as having a “low libido”; I often think about sex. It is just that I do not really enjoy thinking about sex. When I was younger, I felt very ashamed and guilty when I thought about sex (and watching pornography would make me feel depressed rather than aroused). Now I mostly just get annoyed, because there are more interesting things I would much rather be thinking about instead of sex. I regard my sexuality as a distraction more than anything else.
I think it is necessary to adopt a live-and-let-live attitude in these things. While I have difficulty understanding why everyone seems to be so obsessed with sex, many people consider sex a very important part of their nature as human beings. Some people probably consider “more interesting things than sex” a bizarre and perplexing oxymoron. Whether or not sex is a basic human need is actually irrelevant, what is important is that a sexuality should be considered a basic human right. By this I do not mean that everyone is entitled to sex, I mean that people and societal institutions should not get to interfere in the sexualities of consenting adults. Sexuality as a human right also means that people have the right to not have a sexuality (or to not pursue one). Similarly, the human right to religion also includes the right to not have a religion. This is why I consider myself sex-positive, despite my personal views regarding my own sexuality. As long as nobody has their human rights violated (eg. sex slavery and trafficking), I really do not think these things are any of my business.
Orphan:
I think it can meaningfully be called a theory, since it provides an explanatory model, and it is possible to make predictions from it, throw empirical evidence at it and see whether it will still stand. This particular theory happens to be a wrong one, but it is actually substantially less wrong than the one which came before it. In Ancient Greece, many philosophers (notably Plato, who used an analogy of sowing seeds in a field) were of the opinion that the woman was in fact just a kind of passive biological “nursery” who provided a suitable environment for semen to grow into a child. If I remember right, Hippocrates made brief mention of the female orgasm, but he mentioned it mostly as a kind of odd little curiosity.
The Greek theory was quite wrong (but politically useful in a patrilinear society), but at least it correctly identified semen as a necessary ingredient in procreation. But it was unable to explain that children inherit traits from both of their parents. The later Roman two-seed hypothesis that you mention (which might have earlier precedents, but from what I know, it became popular in Ancient Rome) was also wrong, but it was considerably less wrong: It correctly held that both parents contribute biological matter to their offspring (which explained how children inherit traits from both their parents, which the earlier hypothesis failed to explain), but got the actual mechanism wrong. It was actually also less wrong about genital anatomy; after all, modern embryology shows that the genitals of both sexes develop from a common embryonic “base template” (which is why children are sometimes born with ambiguous biological sex). It held, as you mention, that female orgasm was necessary for conception – which is wrong. But at least they actually speculated that it had significance, rather than just noting that it existed.
The theories developed during medieval times tended to be more wrong though, with general opinion reverting to pre-Roman preformationist theory (in the guise of homunculus theory). I do not know what people in medieval times thought about the female orgasm, however.
Noah,
I’m pretty sure you’re right that libido influences people’s reaction and also the way they intellectually deal with it – to a degree. But I think you’re completely underestimating the effect of ideological convictions/delusions in this respect. I very much doubt Jensen is perceiving reality so differently from most men – and chose to use dated feminist language to describe it – because of his endocrinology. I don’t know enough about him to understand the process of his becoming a radical feminist and anti-porn activist, but I do believe that, once he accepted this ideology’s axiomatic structure and according answers he was merely intellectually honest enough and individually courageous? enough to accept the personal consequences thereof (at least in public).
Here’s some biographical information from page 152 of “Heterophobia: Sexual Harassment and the Future of Feminism” by Daphne Patai – books.google.de/books?id=31lrESwfKXUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=heterophobia&hl=de&sa=X&ei=t9kHT_jFJZHSsgb9sPyBDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=heterophobia&f=false – although I’m, of course, not aware whether that’s still his position on sexuality, particularly male sexuality.
Again, I reckon that such a position will be aided by a lower sex drive, but what I read here is about theory coming into practice (“from heterosexual, to homosexual, to celibate man now exploring impotence as the ultimate response”) rather than lack of desire for practice informing theory. The origin of his problems is with sex and porn, in my opinion, is less the lack of a sex drive but misapplied radical feminist Marxism and a strong will, possibly aided by a low libido.
I’m pretty sure that he’s not the only one, and that ideological conviction/delusion will usually have a bigger impact on radical feminists’ inability to consider the pleasures of heterosexual sex than their sex drive. But I’m also sure it’s an important variable to consider.
I’ve been thinking about something that hasn’t been mentioned here but I feel is relevent to the conversation. It is clear that it is not uncommon for those with low libedos, or who express their sexuality in more conservative ways, can think of those with high libidos, or who express their sexuality in more open and expressive* ways must have some sort of pathology around sex and vice versa. However, there are also many people on both sides of the spectrum for whom their particular way of expressing their sexuality does in fact stem from pathology, and this confuses the issue for many and makes things a bit more complicated.
There are people who are scared of sex because of experiances with sexual violence etc, or because they don’t relate to or don’t enjoy the culturally accepted ways of being sexual, and there are people who have lots of sex with random people or participate in porn and the like because they may be seeking affection/intimacy, or think that it means they are “sexually liberated”, even if it’s not truly what they want. These kinds of pathology are easily used by particular kinds of sex negative and sex positive people as a reason why their own philosophy is correct. It’s also very common for someone who has worked through these particular issues (or who is working through them) to assume that anyone who acts as they have/did to feel the same.
It’s very important to point out to both sides that just because someone is acting a certain way that doesn’t mean they have a messed up view of sex, but it’s also important not to forget that there are many people who may sit anywhere along the continuum (and around, between and undernieth it) who have ended up where they are because of issues and blocks they have which are preventing them from knowing what they truly want and seeking it out.
*awkward grammar there, but I couldn’t think of the right word
I’ve always had difficulty taking this as a genuine statement (though that’s my perception, not an accusation), since it’s usually quite clear that people don’t use “basic human need” to mean “basic necessity of survival.” After all, people can survive without a great many things; certainly without human contact of any sort. People can survive in horrific squalor, pain and misery, being tortured and stripped of their dignity. Still, few people would take issue with security, health, or emotional/intellectual stimulation being called basic human needs.
I recently had a similar debate about the differences and appropriateness of the phrases “sexual needs” and “sexual desires”. It seemed like there could be no resolution to the argument about whether sex was in fact a “need”, as different people define “need” in different ways, but many people pointed out that the presence of a “sexual need” implies that others are obligated to satisfy it, and that similar ideas have been and are used to pressure people into non-consensual acts. It also renders asexual/low libido people invisible. So in this case it wasn’t so much about defining whether or not sex is an actual “need” but on whether the term “sexual needs” is useful and free from baggage.
Personally I think the term “sexual desires” is better anyway, if only because it sounds more fun and less like sex is something people go through the motions with in order to function (I’ve met several people with an attitude like this towoards food, I don’t understand it personally).
“As a gay man, i would like to express just how much I hate hate hate</b it when feminists who critique porn ignore gay porn."
Yes, yes, this, this, a thousand times this. In my experience this is a great way to get ignored in any feminist discussion of porn. Most sex-neg theories of porn, that it is all about degrading women, seem to basically imply that homosexual porn simply shouldn't exist at all, so I guess they are not interested in trying to explain it (let alone explain why gay male porn, a subset of 'all porn', degrades women"
And Noah, add me to those saying I think you are unfairly characterising the sex-neg side. I don't think they are motivated by monogamy or low libido and very few of them think women pretend to enjoy sex. Actually in my experience sex-neg feminists are often quite outspoken about how much they enjoy sex with their partners and I have no reason to disbelieve them.
Really the debate isn't about sex-negative or sex-positive, in my opinion – almost everybody involved enjoys sex and even those asexuals present generally aren't claiming others should emulate their asexuality as a feminist necessity. Rather it's about the extent to which sex should penetrate the public arena in terms of sex on TV, sex for money, sex outside of strongly emotional relationships, etc etc. Sex-'negatives' tend to view sex as something that is private and special, that has a deep emotional resonance that can't really be commodified or understood casually, and that sex without emotional investment or commitment, let alone sex for money or viewing somebody else's sex are thus innately cheapening and degrading.
I sometimes think of it as a view of sex as "sacred" and that by viewing other's sex, or having sex for relatively shallow reasons we are somehow profaning it. Perhaps a less accusatory description of it is that sex is a very precious gift that we shouldn't give to somebody lightly. It's not a view I hold much truck with but this is actually one reason why I feel it's important to describe it accurately – whether you want to argue with sex-negative people or reach out to them, if you argue with or reach out to a strawman, your cause is lost.
And your statement "We will be liberated from pretending to enjoy sex" is not something that I can picture a sex-negative feminist saying. So basically you have missed the mark, and you sympathy to sex-negatives for the problems they face as people with low sex drives is unlikely to be taken as warmly as it is intended.
I’ve also heard of a lot of feminists who are against porn and want to legalise prostitution be very offended by the term “sex negative”, for exactly the reason’s Hugh said. Essentially, they see these and similar things as “sex negative” in themselves, which is why they think we should get rid of them.
birdrider:
In Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, sex is right at the bottom, along with breathing, food and water. That has always been baffling to me, precisely because I regard breathing, food and water as more basic needs than sex. This is not intended to downplay that some people have an intense need for sex – just to note that I am perplexed by this.
It is probably just different perspectives. I mean, I have known highly sexual people who say that their brains start going wonky if they do not have sex for a very long time. Those same people have trouble believing that I do not get all worked up about not having sex for a long time (including one who accused me of probably hiring prostitutes’ services in secret, because to her it was inconceivable for a man to go for many years without having sex without becoming terribly worked up about it).
I appreciate that Noah brought this up in a way in which my end of the “sexuality spectrum” is acknowledged as a thing that actually exists. (although as I said, I do have a sexual drive, it is just not particularly enjoyable for me)
By the way, I once read a feminist, who would probably be considered sex-negative, who presented a list of things that made a man a “rape enabler”, and one of them was precisely “considering sex a need”. Perhaps she, like myself, has trouble understanding how people can consider it such a basic and fundamental need.
I don’t know about every specific instance of a sex-negative person, but in general I would definitely dismiss them right out of hand, yes. For America, I think that calling it a sex-positive place is downright laughable. I was just in a sauna somewhere in Europe and 3 random American girls had to be coaxed to drop their towels before covering their bodies with salt… something they really wanted to do, but felt too ashamed of having the men see their bodies. The sauna master gently coaxed them into realizing that they are no longer in the sexually repressed United States and that everyone there thought it was okay to be naked. Yes, that’s how ridiculous the rest of the world thinks we are. The girls eventually loosened up and had a lot of fun. My point is, they were sex-negative but they didn’t actually want to be. Their American culture forced it upon them. And it had nothing to do with libidos or anything like that.
@RocketFrog
It might help if you realize that Maslow’s hierarchy is specifically about motivational needs and not about survival needs.
The idea, succinctly, is that we must satisfy our lower order needs in order to free ourselves to pursue higher order needs. Failing to do so causes psychological stress. For food, water, and air (and a few others), acute deficits also causes physical death.
The people making the “leads to death” distinction fail to see how there could be any equivalency between a need for sleep and a need for sex. If you recast it in terms of things that cause psychological stress, which is manifested physically, there’s little need for the distinction. That we will die without water but not without sex is somewhat immaterial to the type of psychological stress that ensues when there is a deficiency in either.
Let’s say you’re a little bacteria swimming around in a petri dish for the duration of your 10 second life. How would you view sex (i.e. reproduction) then? Pretty close to the lowest common denominator of basic biological needs. I would hope. We humans are also biological creatures who are driven to have sex by evolution, so our bodies tend to desire it the same way our bodies desire food and water. Think of it this way… pretend you were really hungry but no matter how much you ate, your body still sent signals to your brain that made you feel an agonizing hunger. Torture, no? Now imagine your body generating that same powerful drive for you to have sex, for 50 years or more, but the whole time you aren’t able to have sex even once. That’s not a basic need?
@Hugh, this may be a weird comment but I think that Noah was being a lot more charitable to the sex-negative view than your description of what it is. Because the “sex is sacred” point of view seems to me like it’s utterly idiotic. But you’re right, there are many sex-negative activists who claim to have that view. Personally, I don’t really believe them for a number of different reasons.
I have slept with sex-negative women and from those experiences I found that the anti-male bigotry comes first, the sex-negativity comes as a result. For example, a woman will tell me, “you just want me for the sex… I know it.” A few hours later she’ll get turned on, we’ll have sex and she’ll have an ecstatic orgasm. And a few hours afterwards she’ll get all depressed and accuse me of having used her body and oppressed her. It’s obvious that she has an incredibly strong sex drive, but her sex-negative outlook is what takes over when she isn’t turned on. These women are like having sex with Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde and it is really unhealthy for my mental health to be around women who are like that. I have always thought that you can tell the sex-negative woman who is prejudiced against men from the asexual woman who really doesn’t want sex just by looking at the massive quantities of chocolate some of them consume. At one point I dated a sex-negative woman who used to greeted me with, “did you bring me any chocolate?” Our sex lives improved after I stopped bringing her chocolate.
Yup, I am definintely one of those people
And to my deep regret I have definitely been one of those assholes.
@ Sam
Wow, that’s. Upthread I said I got the creepy vibe when I was reading about him alienating men and men’s sexuality in order to create a “bond” with women and that is exactly why. I HATE it when people demonize male sexuality like that, not only because I happen to ENJOY male sexuality very much, but because I know so many men who really, really do not deserve it.
I’d say I’d like to see his views on BDSM, but I really, really wouldn’t.
Very good article. I agree with most of it, but since people don’t write comments on the Internet because they’re happy, here’s one problem I had with the OP.
It’s far from decided that “sex addiction” is even a real thing, and I was disappointed that the OP referenced it. There’s tons of expert opinion out there to the contrary, starting with the APA deciding to not include it in their DSM-V. It’s mainly a pop psychology term, and it reeks of sex-negativity. I didn’t like the comparison between asexuals, portrayed nice and neutrally, and the incredibly stigmatizing descriptor of “compulsive sex addicts”.
Speaking of which, I think it’s revealing of ideological biases that “asexuality” has been accepted as a thing by progressives and the gendersphere, but “hypersexuality” has not. For the record, both terms remain contentious in professional opinion.
You may say that the sex pozzie big umbrella of everyone can have any kind of sex they want, as much or as little, with any kind of person, etc. etc. covers hypersexuality. But if that’s sufficient, then why isn’t it sufficient for asexuality as well? One side gets a legitimizing identity label and the other does not.
@pocketjacks:
I don’t think it’s that way at all. In fact, some of the worst responses to my asexuality were from people who identified as sex-positive. It’s really not accepted by a lot of people, and if it seems like it is, it might just be a few people who mention it regularly.
(I would also like to point out – there are some asexual folks who do have sex…it just seems like people are using it to mean “people who don’t have sex”, and there’s already a word for that: celibate. While it’s true that the group of “asexual people” and “people who don’t have sex” overlap a lot, they aren’t the same thing)
“It is probably just different perspectives. I mean, I have known highly sexual people who say that their brains start going wonky if they do not have sex for a very long time. Those same people have trouble believing that I do not get all worked up about not having sex for a long time (including one who accused me of probably hiring prostitutes’ services in secret, because to her it was inconceivable for a man to go for many years without having sex without becoming terribly worked up about it). ”
There’s always masturbation.
Tell someone you haven’t masturbated in over a decade (in fact, if we only count masturbation that leads to orgasm or ejaculation, it simply never happened ever), without getting worked up about it, without having sex either, and without caring that much about it (beyond the social stuff, or being in a relationship).
Shora,
“I HATE it when people demonize male sexuality like that, not only because I happen to ENJOY male sexuality very much, but because I know so many men who really, really do not deserve it.”
I’m pretty sure that’s also the case for a lot of radical sex-negative feminists in their private lives – and that it’s the cognitive dissonance of their axiomatic positions and their personal experience rather than lack of sexual desire/libido as such that’s a problem for them. I remember reading articles written by 60s/70s radical feminists from Germany about community meetings in which they discussed how horrible men are before going home to sleep with the enemy. Some of them pushed themselves to explore lesbianism, because that was the only way to be touched without feeling the cognicitive dissonance of ideoogically prescribed disgust and perceived pleasure. My point is basically – I’m not so sure the relevant personality difference is a consequence of libido – I think the relevant personality difference is a consequence of a person’s willingness and ability to delay/discard individual gratification in the name of an ideologically assumed public greater good. I’m sure that this will be harder for people with a higher libido, but I don’t think that libido is the decisive factor here. If we’re looking for a biological factor, I’d speculate something about serotonin imbalances, but I also reckon that there are plenty of psychological/sociological explanations for the appearance of such willpower in *some* people.
@Leum
But the only feminists I’ve seen critique straight male-sub porn are sex-positive feminists (generally for paying far more attention to the domme versus almost no attention to the sub). The sex-negative feminists ignore it, presumably because it violates their paradigm..
I think you’ve summed it up very nicely. It’s like the non-feminist sex negative mainstream conservatives- they won’t be quiet about gay porn, just because they want to demonize it, and then use homophobia to scare people away from sex. It’s all a big one-two punch, not from feminism, but from sexual antipathy.
@Sam
I agree with you, and I’m gonna take that theory a step further. I think the biggest cause of that cognitive dissonance is the idea that the personal is political, and I really do believe that’s true. However, I decided early on that even though the personal is political, my sexuality is not.
Sexuality is not up for debate, and I came to this conclusion largely because of the LGBT rights dialogue on whether gay is a choice or not, or whether you can “pray away the gay” or some such nonsense. I needed only look at stories of gay individuals getting married and having kids and everything going to hell in a handbasket to know that trying to wrestle with your sexuality and fit it into a box of “should” is one of the quickest ways to make yourself miserable.
Are a lot of the more “stereotypical” aspects of my sexuality (such as submissiveness, the desire to wear skimpy clothing, my attraction to muscled men) effected by the often toxic cultural messages I get about what it means to be not only a woman, but desirable? Almost certainly. Are they up for debate? Absolutely not.
That isn’t to say my sexuality or sexuality in general cant change, or that there’s no reason to analyze people’s sexualities. But that change (if there is any) must come naturally, and that analysis must not contain any judgement about what is “wrong” or “right” about what I do or want to do with my body. Not the least because that is the quickest way to piss us sex-pozzies right the fuck off.
@Hugh: “in my experience sex-neg feminists are often quite outspoken about how much they enjoy sex with their partners and I have no reason to disbelieve them.”
This is totally correct. I did a bunch of research for a school paper, and was blown away by the fact that most anti-pornography feminists in Canada in the 80s would follow up a diatribe against pornography with a diatribe about how much we need more ‘erotica.’ They aren’t against sex, or porn, they are radically IN FAVOUR of a very specific type of sex and porn. They are so far in favour of it, in fact, that they want other forms of sex an porn outlawed.
And to Leum’s point about gay porn — as soon as the anti porn side won the national debate (anti-porn feminism was much more influential in Canada than in the US), the pornography that was most rigorously censored was gay porn. Because the police took the new anti-porn laws as an excuse to crack down on gay men. This was a predictable result, and one that everyone saw coming except for anti-porn feminists who insisted on ignoring gay porn in their discussions.
Good article, first off. I certainly hope we’re learning to get around to the viewpoint that everyone should do what is right and feels good to them.
@dungone, I had to giggle at your comment because the farther I get away from my upbringing in the US, the less relevant discussions like this one become to me. Not to be all Europe Is So Evolved! because lord knows it isn’t exactly a social justice paradise, but yeah. Nakedness is MUCH less taboo. I think this goes along with environments like a sauna or a nude beach being places where it’s possible to enjoy bodily experiences that might be sensual, but are not in any way sexual. Where in the States, sauna-ing naked with dudes would automatically be OMG SLUTITUDE, here it’s more like, guess what, being naked and coated in salt in a sauna is a fun thing to do for yourself with your friends*! One of the most charming experiences I ever had was at a workshop in Finland, where our hosts from City Hall invited us up to their sauna overlooking the city, after the presentations were over. They kindly assumed that we’d want to gender-segregate, which was actually good considering how many Italian, Turkish, and American people were in the group. But they made it quite clear that they see their colleagues naked in the sauna all the time.
@Schala, that’s why I like the term “solo sex” for masturbation. I recently moved to a different city from my boyfriend and dang has it been difficult maintaining a “sex life” of my own lately. Without care and feeding, my libido just shrivels up, so yup.
*related: daaaamn I need to get to the sauna
I think Noah’s post is really very spot on re: the source of in the divide in feminism. Feminism is about freedom and permissions for women, but I think some women want to be free of sex, the male sex drive, and the obligation to have to be sexy. Some women wanted to be free to have sex, develop their own sex drive, and to be sexy. Those are both valid, but it’s not easy to express wanting something to go away, espescially when you get down to brass tacks and there’s not a real reason that what you want to go away shouldn’t be there. Women shouldn’t have to bend to, or tolerate real pressure to perform (anymore than men do) but they don’t really have the right to whip around and attack the legitimate desire that leads to the pressure. Kind of like I have to right to trim my neighbor’s tree branches that cross my property line but I don’t have the right to go chop his tree down. Or (at least in my state) ask him to pay to have the tree trimmed back. Neither can he complain about his tree looking lopsided when I trim it.
I’ve heard a lot of anti-feminists complain about women, y’know, enslaving men and then using the dominatrix as a metaphor for women doing that. But if you talk to sex positive feminists who are open to the concept of BDSM you would probably notice a trend along the line of most them either identifying as equals who prefer to think of BDSM as a flavorful game (totally valid, btw, anyone can own a pair of handcuffs without going gonzo with it), submissives, lesbian dommes, or switches (who y’know, really prefer to sub but don’t mind sharing the fun. I sort of fit in this last slot myself.) We’ve got a Nice Guy ™ perspective that accuses some feminists of having no room for reverse gender-script men who are passive/feminine in their approaches to dating. There’s seems, at first, to be a conspicuous absence of room for the submissive male in feminism.
However, if you go talk to het/bi/pan sexual female doms, many (I think most) of them will identify as feminist. Like I said, feminism helps women seeking liberation (mental, spiritual, physical, social, etc.) or permisssions. Sexually dominant women are not, ah, inclined to seek permissions for who they are. Not to erase the problems of the lonely lovelorn dominatrix (I’ve met a couple, and heard a lot of anecdotes) but they also do not tend to suffer from a lack of positive affirmation. There’s nothing inherently superior about dommes (/me flinches) but F/m is a numbers game they happen to sit on the better side of. In summary: It’s not that dommes aren’t feminists, but more that vocal feminist advocates who focus on feminism first are not likely to be dommes. So, I try not to rant at feminism too much about something that isn’t their fault- taking a step to the left doesn’t mean there was something repugnant on the right.
I think sex-neg feminists may be suffering in the same way. One sees all this noise, noise, noise about male lust in non-feminist spheres, and then one looks at the majority of material provided for said lust. A sex-neg feminist may see the shape of the things that aren’t there, like a footprint, make a plaster cast and get Sex is Oppression Bigfoot!!! (Just like some anti-feminists will make casts with feminism and get the Big Brother Enabling Misandry Yeti!!!) Then pro-sex feminists show and up and it must feel like your worst enemy is sitting on your couch like a 1980′s Commie sympathizing liberal Pinko.
Hyperbole aside, you can actually discover a true culprit in the absence of what’s being presented (like seeing through a magic trick) but the culprit isn’t likely to be a semi-mythical cryptid that’s no one’s ever actually proven the existence of.
tl;dr I think I called Bigfoot a Pinko Feminist. Where do I pick up my job as an AM Host?
P.S. Totally in agreement with dungone and f on the Euro thing.
@Shora,
Yeah, I agree. Yet to a Vegan this position will look like Vegetariasnism, to a Socialist it reeks of Social Democracy. Radical positions are certainly useful to advance thoughts, but rarely to advance lives – yet it is hard to make the argument you make above about how sexuality is not political when everything else is supposedly without getting one’s hands dirty with the axiomatic stuff and deconstructing problematic religious notions like “the personal is political” (and a whole lot of others) on a fundamental level.
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@Other Hugh,
I think you are getting closer to the heart of the difference in attitudes that Noah was pointing out. Rather than (just) being related to differences in libido, perhaps it’s related to differences in sociosexuality (i.e. propensity towards short-term mating).
Thanks for a great post and for the shout out. I think you’re right that differences in desire are one of the sources of miscommunications around sex, both within sexual relationships and in discussions of sexual politics. At the same time, that’s not really the source of my confusion with respect to Jensen’s leaving pleasure out of the reasons people have sex. After all, most folks who with low sexual desire will still experience sexual pleasure. They might not prioritize it as highly, but it’ll still be part of their experience. Talking about motivations for sex and leaving out pleasure is kind of like talking about reasons people eat and leaving out pleasure. In both sex & food, pleasure is one of the common motivations and I don’t think that a difference in appetite necessarily hinders one from recognizing that.
But yeah, difference in how much people prioritize sex is definitely one of the reasons for the difficulty we have in talk about it.
Another high-libido, sex-positive, porn-watching female here…and I am really enjoying reading the variety of responses here.
I think of sex and personal desires kind of like eating and food…all people eat food, but *what* we like to eat and when and with whom varies greatly, in our overall likes and dislikes and with daily fluctuations and cravings and convenience factors thrown in. I abhor mushrooms and fresh tomatoes, but I’ll pretty much eat most everything else. I prefer home-cooked food and mostly healthy stuff like organic meat, veggies/fruit but damn, sometimes a fast food burger or Taco Bell just really hits the spot too. Sometimes it’s fun to spend several hours preparing a creative meal with lots of courses, but sometimes at the end of a long day, I just want to shovel down some cereal or a PB&J to satisfy the basic need and go to sleep. Sometimes I like to have long chatty dinner with a group of friends, and sometimes I just want to sit down at the lunch counter and have a quiet lunch by myself. If only we could have the same level of comfort with ours and other peoples’ sexualities.
Re: Sauna…I am half Finn and can attest to the cultural pervasiveness of sauna (with friends, family, colleagues, complete stranger) and be naked whilst enjoying the sauna. And f. hit the nail on the head…in the Nordic countries and elsewhere, there is a distinction made between “sensual” and “sexual” as well as naked-without-your-clothes and naked-in-a-sexy-situation. In North America, naked=sexual, and that is just not the case everywhere. I also am feeling nostalgic for a good authentic sauna. A hot room at the gym does NOT count!
@Sam,
I agree. I will suggest a different solution to Shora:
I would say that sex and sexual preferences are political, but that the sexual fulfillment of people in the present is an importance political interest that can’t simply be thrown aside.
Some “sex-negative” feminists frame the issue as “women’s political interests vs. individual women’s pleasure.” If your individual pleasures are “constructed” by society and counter to women’s “class interests,” then you must abandon or restrict them in favor of a more politically-correct preference.
This framing is ridiculous, because it assumes that the sexual pleasure of individual women in the present is a not an important political goal, but rather a frivolous pastime that should be abandoned in favor of what is really politically important. The sort of person who might feel this way might indeed have a fundamentally different attitude towards sex (as Noah) suggests, or also a different ideological view (as Sam suggests).
Yet the freedom to enjoy sex (consensually) according to one’s present-day preferences is an important political goal, because sexuality is so important for many people’s mental health and relationships. Restricting people’s present-day sexual desires is not politically progressive, it’s authoritarian.
Analyzing people’s preferences, and their political consequences, shouldn’t be problem as long as fulfillment of present-day preferences is considered as politically important as it should be.
You know, I’ve emotionally accepted (as opposed to intellectually accepted) the fact that everybody views sex differently after I had an experience with a girl that demonstrated this fact.
Without going into too many details: we met; we took off our clothes; we commenced fooling around. Within a few minutes, she made a sound like she’d just bumped into something (maybe she had
) and gave a few twitches and said, “Oh.” That was it. She came and she was done. Then it was back to business as usual.
People have different indices for things. Some people need to talk; some people don’t. Some people want to listen; some people don’t. Some people want a lot of sex; some people don’t. Some people really like to have an orgasm (or two, or three >.<) during sex; some people don't need an orgasm to have good sex. Some people like challenges; some people don't.
Imagine that paragraph, continued ad infinitum, each sentence representing a spectrum of possible desire or need. Now imagine that each person exists somewhere on each individual spectrum.
Meaning that each person is a unique combination of positions on a transfinite number of spectra. And NO COMBINATION IS WRONG (unless it interferes with other people).
A clarification on the above:
By “emotionally accepted” I mean that that I understand it on an emotional level, which is different than understanding something intellectually.
For example, I tend to understand things intellectually much faster than I do emotionally — it takes a while before something I understand intellectually integrates itself into my emotions.
In this case, I understand both intellectually AND emotionally that “different people are different” when it comes to sex.
Dungone:
Bacteria do not reproduce sexually, and they do not have minds. They reproduce automatically by splitting into two when they have enough nutrients to do so. For them, it is just a chemical thing. A true sex drive only occurs in animals – plants and fungi also reproduce sexually, but they do so indirectly, eg. by pollination or by releasing spores. Unrelated but amusing fact: Fungi have up to 36.000 different biological sexes.
I honestly have problems imagining this. I mean, sometimes I start to think about sex as well, but it is not a “powerful drive”. Obviously it is a hormonal reaction triggering those thoughts, but I do not feel compelled to have sex, neither do I feel stressed or unfulfilled over not having sex. I have not had sex for years, and this does not bother me. (it *does* sometimes bother me that I feel lonely, but that is not usually due to sexual concerns). When my brain starts thinking about sex, I just get a bit annoyed with it.
I am not saying that there is anything wrong with feeling powerful sexual drive. Probably most people do. It is probably me there is something wrong with.
It seems to me that a logical corollary of your first statement – that the bodies of humans desire sex the same way as they desire food and water – is that people who do not feel that way are not truly human. Is this correctly understood?
Ramesses:
And that is exactly what I cannot understand. I am not very bothered about not having sex. I have not had sex for years. The only thing that bothers me about not having sex is that my brain still sometimes thinks about sex, which I find annoying. If I did not drink water, I would die of dehydration. If I did not sleep, my body would start shutting down vital functions. If I do not have sex, nothing happens. I do not think that I am asexual or even “low-libido”, because I do feel sexual attraction, and I do involuntarily start thinking about sex. But sex gives me no enjoyment (it can be fun, yes, but beyond that I do not really get why everyone is so obsessed with it), neither does thinking about sex.
I accept that others feel different about these things. But it is still hard for me to understand. As a metaphor, imagine seeing a hierarchy of needs with “orange juice” at the bottom. You would probably have the same “emotional understanding” (in Gaius’ definition) of this as I do about having “sex” placed down there. Life with orange juice is probably better than life without orange juice – but a fundamental human need, on the same level as oxygen? It seems incomprehensible to me. But that is perhaps because I have never felt that intense craving, so it seems as bizarre to me as it probably would to you if someone defined orange juice as a fundamental human need.
I once worked with a guy who would start to get antsy for lunch at 11:35. At 12:05 you couldn’t hold a conversation with him, his mind was so consumed with food. He wasn’t going to die without it, but he couldn’t focus if he didn’t have it. On the other hand, I can go three days without food and not feel an overwhelming urge to eat. We all share the same baseline metabolic needs, but how they affect us can be very different. What Maslow was attempting to do is set up categories of needs, where deficits in the lower categories tend to interfere with our ability to pursue higher categories. You appear to be fortunate enough that it’s easy to satisfy your need for sex.
“Because the “sex is sacred” point of view seems to me like it’s utterly idiotic.”
I don’t agree with this viewpoint but I find it more understandable than “All women dislike sex”
“I did a bunch of research for a school paper, and was blown away by the fact that most anti-pornography feminists in Canada in the 80s would follow up a diatribe against pornography with a diatribe about how much we need more ‘erotica.’”
Ugh, the whole ‘porn vs erotica’ thing, don’t get me started.
But I would go even beyond that, I think there are sex-negative people who are against all kinds of public or semi-public depictions of sex and still are very interested in sex with their partners.
It was pointed out somewhere (I think at PunkAss Blog) that the two of the major criticisms of sex work (which I would think includes pornography) run as follows:
From conservatives: “It’s having sex for money!”
From liberals: “It’s having sex for money!”
Hugh writes:
Sex-’negatives’ tend to view sex as something that is private and special, that has a deep emotional resonance that can’t really be commodified or understood casually, and that sex without emotional investment or commitment, let alone sex for money or viewing somebody else’s sex are thus innately cheapening and degrading.
I sometimes think of it as a view of sex as “sacred” and that by viewing other’s sex, or having sex for relatively shallow reasons we are somehow profaning it. Perhaps a less accusatory description of it is that sex is a very precious gift that we shouldn’t give to somebody lightly. It’s not a view I hold much truck with but this is actually one reason why I feel it’s important to describe it accurately – whether you want to argue with sex-negative people or reach out to them, if you argue with or reach out to a strawman, your cause is lost.
I think you more or less nail it here. It represents a view of sex that I ultimately would say is pretty puritanical, but it is not so much based on hating sex so much as idealizing it into something so sacred as see much of real existing sex as something quite profane and offensive. Of course, the obvious argument against this view is that you can actually repress something or someone very profoundly by putting them up on a pedestal. Much genteel sexism are very much built around the notion that women are “too pure” to vote/work/have sex outside of marriage/etc. One can repress sexuality while claiming to respect it in much the same way.
I also have little respect for feminists who hold such views and yet claim their views aren’t “moralistic” because they’re think so “highly” of sex and aren’t coming from a religious point of view. And yet, if you look at the official line of most religious conservatives (including official church documents like Humanae Vitae), they also take *exactly* the “sex is a sacred gift” line too! They in fact come much closer to religious conservatives than they seem to understand, and also lack any understanding that moralism can quite easily exist without religion.
I want to point out, though, that there is a small subset within the feminist antiporn movement that truly do hold outright antisex and otherwise deeply ascetic views. Basically, viewing sex as in some way “primitive” and standing in the way of “higher” human nature, of which some kind of feminist utopia is the highest aspiration. Check out this thread at the F-Word blog, in particular, the views of Komal, and Marv Wheale’s responses to Komal for a good example of this:
http://www.feminisms.org/4024/who-gets-a-say-the-sex-work-lobby-the-silencing-of-feminist-voices/#comments
I think there are also small hints of this kind of asceticism (albeit, not nearly so full blown as the above examples) in Hugo Schwyzer’s “sin and redemption” feminism, where men are expected to purge themselves of, for example, any kind of attraction to younger women, etc.
As to the antiporn feminist line on gay male porn, they don’t so much ignore it entirely as profoundly misinterpret it. The idea seems to be that gay men’s porn is still a form of discrimination against women because the receiving gay man is feminized effectively takes on the role of a woman. Their line on the subject really is that stupid and oriented toward making it all about them.
If you want to read more on it, look for the name “Christopher Kendall”. He’s contributed quite a bit to antiporn feminist anthologies on the subject and seems to be their go-to gay male writer. In fact, their *only* gay male author, to the point where his inclusion in radfem anthologies comes across as blatant tokenism.
“They in fact come much closer to religious conservatives than they seem to understand, and also lack any understanding that moralism can quite easily exist without religion.”
Yeah, this is why I am a little reluctant to use the term “sex is sacred” because it can be objectionable to people who hold this view and aren’t religious. But I do quite strongly feel that the language used is mystical, if not religious per se – it depends quite a lot on the fact that what makes sex different from other passtimes or commodities is just beyond human understanding, and to be me that’s a fairly mystical view.
I might be coming across as sex-negative or at least sympathetic to sex-negative feminism. I’m actually not, but the context of this post is about how to improve understanding between sex-negative and sex-positive people, so I’m engaging with it in that spirit.
Thanks for the name, using it I was able to find some stuff (not much, searching “Christopher Kendall” gets a lot of unrelated results and “Christopher Kendall porn” turns up more porn than Christopher Kendall). It was bizarre. No attention paid to the issue of abuse of performers, it was all about how “gay for pay” was an assault against homosexuality and how gay male porn is white supremacist and male supremacist. There are certainly legitimate criticisms of gay male porn as racist, but these weren’t explored. It was just “gay porn is white supremacist, next topic please.” Ugh.
Sorry to come late to the discussion, I’m afraid I skimmed through some of the comments (most of them are fascinating and I should probably read in more detail later).
This post reminded me of some conversations I had with a friend of mine with whom I have many, many differences. In one, she was telling me about a speaker who had come to her college (no idea who) who had spoken about how pornography is anti-feminist, pornography encourages rape, pornography IS rape, pornography must be stopped at all cost. And my friend had swallowed this philosophy hook line and sinker, and was parroting it back to me, saying “Who would want double penetration? Who would want to be part of the horrible things they show in porn? Who would choose something so painful? Those women are being raped on camera, there’s no way they can be consenting.”
Now, I happen to be a masochistic bondage fiend, but at the time I was a heavily closeted one, so I didn’t try to correct her assumptions from personal experience, but I did say something like “Well, there are lots of people of both sexes who really enjoy pain, and it’s unfair to assume they don’t exist.” I may have alluded to the possibility of being one such person myself, but the reminder of the existence of alternative sexuality was enough to get her to (reluctantly) reconsider the correctness of her assumptions.
But then a while later I was guilty of the same thing. We were discussing my friend’s lack of interest in dating at the time, and the pressures she was getting to start dating and start having sex, et cetera, and I suggested that maybe she was just asexual – I thought, if her libido is so low that she wasn’t interested in dating even at her age, when I was just as dateless and so sex-deprived that I could hardly think of anything else, then she must just have no libido at all. She told me in no uncertain terms that this was not the case.
So yes, I agree there’s a lot of arrogant assumptions going on even among us liberal, feminist, “open-minded” types. It’s time we face up to it and say “Okay, maybe I’m not normal, I need to stop thinking everyone’s like me or else there’s something wrong with them.” At the same time, we have to realize that even if we’re different from everyone else, there’s not necessarily anything wrong with US.
One side-effect of sex-pos people seem to be overlooking: Sex pos doesn’t just mean your freedom to do whatever you like with whoever you like*. It also means hearing things you may not want to hear from other people. Including but not limited to receiving advances from people you may not be interested in**. There are times when an outsider’s sexuality can feel like an imposition, and it’s interesting to see people’s stance on sex politics when that happens.
*Obligatory disclaimer about consent, and abuses of trust/power muddying things to hell and back.
**Harassment is harassment. Inappropriate contact certainly applies, as does badgering. But I recently had the amusement of reading a huge kerfluffle kicked off when a feminist who presumably identifies as sex pos was hit on one time by a colleague.
Hugh Ristik, I love what you’ve said here:
I think that the “sex-negative” idea that porn/erotic imagery that objectifies women (and to an increasing extent men) is much too prevalent in our day-to-day life is entirely valid. It’s pretty much unavoidable, and I do think it is damaging and unnecessary. (For srs, I do not need a naked woman to sell me mouthwash. Ugh.)
But at the same time, I have no problem with that kind of content–or more extreme content, provided the participants are all safe and consenting–being easily accessible to those who look for it. What bothers me about a lot of “sex-negative” commentary is how judgmental it is–Charlie linked to a discussion with Meg on her blog, and asked her what specific type of erotic nudity bothered her, and she responded <a href="http://www.feminisms.org/3765/on-sex-positivity-and-misunderstandings/#comment-5146"I mean, like, what comes up when you google ‘porn’. And I mean what most men watch when they watch porn." WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?? And how snobbish can you get?
The “sex-negative” view ignores the idea that our sexual desires may be related to our non-sexual ones. Some BDSM practitioners see the release they get from being tied up, or hurt, as separate from sex; it’s a different need. And then for others, it’s connected. But it’s still a desire of some kind, that they wish to have or see fulfilled. There is such absurd range within erotica and pornography that pinning it all to sexual desire alone, and specifically the desire to see women [or anyone] degraded seems far too simplistic to me.
“Sex-negative” commentary tends to assume that “sex-positive” feminists are running around going “I choose my choice! I choose my choice!” without any recognition of the context in which those desires are formed. That’s rubbish; understanding patriarchy (or kyriarchy) as a pretty much universal context is one of the very first steps in serious feminist thought.
In fact, what “sex-positivity” should really be about is examining one’s own desires to identify to what extent they are synthetic things we believe we want, and to what extent they are true desires. Jaclyn Friedman’s new book on sex-positivity is on precisely that.
Dismissing or mocking people for having a specific desire, even one which may intersect with others or representations that may be seen as degrading suggests that the critical understanding of “sex-positive” people extends more or less as far as “Woo, Girl Power! Bootylicious! Ginger Spice is my FAVOURITE.” That’s really insulting.
tl;dr–I think that “sex-negativity”, on a social, media-based level, makes some very good points about our interaction with erotic/pornographic imagery. But when you pull it down to an individual level, it is constricting and damaging. Of course, there is unavoidable interaction between these levels (a lot of it, as Charlie says in his post, enforced by the demands of the capitalism), and I think there is an important debate to be had on where we draw the line–at what point “sex-negativity” should step back from protecting us from the pressures of kyriarchal expectation, and “sex-positivity” should step in to help us define our individual sex lives–but both arguments can be taken to extremes which are unhelpful and damaging.
“I think there is an important debate to be had on where we draw the line–at what point “sex-negativity” should step back from protecting us from the pressures of kyriarchal expectation, and “sex-positivity” should step in to help us define our individual sex lives–but both arguments can be taken to extremes which are unhelpful and damaging.”
I guess I take a stronger, more classically liberal view of sex-positivity, because I don’t see “sex-negativity” as having any worthwhile role in “protecting” us from anything. The claim that sex-positivity is only about honoring “authentic” sex expression is a major difference I have with the kind of sex-positivity espoused by Charlie Glickman, Jaclyn Friedman, and the like. “Authenticity” is a subjective valuation broad enough to drive a steamroller through, and many an antiporn feminist does, running down anything and anybody they deem “inauthentic” in the process.
That said, I do think “I choose” is just the beginning of sex positivity, not the end of it. However, standing up for the rights of free sexual choices, no matter how frivolous or seemingly “inauthentic” or “patriarchal” from another’s point of view is critical. Of course, sex-positivity should also be about empowering people to realize what their actual desires and pleasures are, rather than what they’ve told they should like via socialization and are just going along with rather than enjoying. But ultimately, that’s up to the individual, and may or may not be congruent with expectations from the larger society, or from feminism for that matter.
In other words, you can’t help thinking about sex. I rest my case.
This would be a fallacy. It’s like if I told you that it only rained on Tuesday last week and it’s raining today, so you concluded that today must be Tuesday.
@ glitterary, Iamcuriousblue,
I just wanted to say I enjoyed both of your posts & the things you brought up. In one way, yeah I like the critical perspective that sex-negative thinkers tend to bring to sexualization, pressure to be sexy, sexiness as capitalist token, etc. But in another way, to bring all that to bear on individuals is super-ridiculous. I too have some sexual and even clothing tastes that long made me wonder AM I REALLY CHOOSING THIS FOR SERIOUS? and in fact in a heteronormative society, I’ve often questioned whether I’m actually even straight or not. Those things are worth interrogating from a personal perspective, but I strongly feel that nobody else has the right to interrogate them for me, unless I specifically ask them to do that.
As far as say, porn consumption, it is the same dilemma that comes up with any other type of consumption. Am I helping someone earn money through the exploitation of others? is really a question we should ask ourselves about T-shirts, fresh fruit, the buildings we live in etc. as much as when we choose what porn we are watching.
I want to say something about “pornography vs. erotica” but I think I have to stew on it a bit longer…
On further investigation, I think that the “sex negative” writing Glitterary linked to might violate one of the most basic tennets of more “mainstream” feminism.
Most feminism takes what I like to call the “postmodern problem” to heart. Put in other words, it is axiomatic that a person cannot know another’s ideas, feelings, etc. as thoroughly as the other person knows them, much less better. The way I was taught it, this is why standard feminist discourse places so much value on the stories of others as ways to express ideas and concepts. Feminist tools and models were functions of the “common” or “aggregated” stories, not visa-versa.
If I were to accept the “sex negative” philosophy, not only would my model start defining the stories, I would have to look every Sub Woman and every Dom Man in the eye and tell him or her that I know their deepest desires better than they do. That the sex they enjoy the most is really a function of society, and were they truly free, I can say for sure they would not choose the same things. I know this not because of daring lab work or insightful longitudinal study, but because of borrowed models and minimalistic, decades-old musings on the nature of choice. There is a fascinating question here of “to what extent can societal influences affect adult sexual expression,” but it is a question to be answered in the lab, not by philosophers in the gender sphere.
Now, the above *might* be acceptable were the “sex negative” philosophy falsifiable (or testable) in an empirical setting, but it doesn’t look like it is. So, at the end of the day, the “sex negative” apologist would have me, as a man, define a woman’s story for her in the most intimate way imaginable without grounding in empirical measurement.
I think I’ll pass.
f. writes:
“Those things are worth interrogating from a personal perspective, but I strongly feel that nobody else has the right to interrogate them for me, unless I specifically ask them to do that.”
Exactly. The whole discourse of “examine your desires until you come to our conclusions” just strikes me as bad faith on the very face of it. And the assumption that because we don’t come to the same conclusion that “sex controlling” people come to somehow means we haven’t actually thought these questions through is actually quite presumptuous.
What about the notion that “A woman with low to non-existent libidos just hasn’t met the right man yet”?
It’s a question I’ve struggled alot with, since several of my partners have had low libidos. None of them have expressed any dislike in it, or ever said that I did a bad job on my part of it. Yet none of them rarely, if ever, expressed an interest of their own in it.
And I think it plays straight into the myth about Real Men, and The Myth About Men Not Being Hot (as well as the “Well, he’s a loser. He couldn’t hack it in the dating world, so he’s just punking out and giving up.” notion)
But maybe that’s off-topic? Or it’s just me?
Coming in late here, but thank you for this article Noah. It helped me realise one of the things that most alienates me from sex-positive feminists, despite generally agreeing with them more. I think it’s related to how LGBT activists often present their sexuality or gender identities as inborn. It’s a useful attitude, because it counters the idea that they can be held responsible for their orientation as a choice, or that marginalising them will make them go away. And as a bonus, it’s definitely not without scientific merit.
I see a lot of the same attitude in sex-positives in regards to libido. The idea seem to be that sexuality is something which will assert itself automatically. High-libido people will automatically start wanting sex, and get enjoyment out of it when they get it. Low-libido people will automatically not want as much sex. Asexuals will automatically be completely uninterested in sex (at least with other people). And no matter where you fall on that spectrum, the important thing is that the associated behaviour should be acceptable.
This probably explains why I’ve seen so many people with an ‘extreme’ sexuality (extremely high libido, very kinky, completely asexual, etc.) in sex positive circles. And that’s part of my problem. Sex-positivity seems all to often ends up with high-libido people talking about all the sparkly rainbow sex (in lack of a better expression – I think a lot of outsiders looking at sex-positive discourse can relate to the term) they get or want to get, and then some off-handed comments going “Hey, if you don’t want sex/this kind of sex, you should not have to. We support asexuals too!”.
It’s like there are only four non-sex worker narratives (and even sex workers are usually just placed in the first category): High-libido/kinky people having a lot of sex/kinky sex, high-libido/kinky people wanting a lot of sex/kinky sex, low-libido/vanilla people having little/no/vanilla sex, and low-libido/vanilla people wanting little/no/vanilla sex. I happen to be one of the people who don’t fit any of those narratives, and your distinction between high and low-libido people doesn’t really do a lot for me, except helping me to get where most sex-positives come from. Which, in all fairness, isn’t a bad thing in itself.
@AB:
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction about what felt “off” about this article and the discussion that followed.
The model of sexuality presented here, one focused on intensity and frequency, doesn’t really fit the many nuances involved in any individual’s sexual desires and choices. It doesn’t quite acknowledge that someone may not be able to get enough of one sort of sexual relationship, could take or leave another sort of sexual relationship, and can be flat-out disgusted by yet another sort of sexual relationship. I’m not talking about specific sexual acts, but ways that people relate sexually and approach fulfilling their sexual needs (which may or may not include orgasms or even specific sexual acts).
@Schala:
Telling people who complain about not having sex in a long time ‘you can always masturbate’ is like telling a person dying of thirst to swallow their own spit.
I never orgasmed EE. Ever. As far as I know, I just can’t.
So I never masturbated to orgasm either. And I don’t masturbate period. I did “to see what it felt like”, figured it was too overwhelming sensation-wise, and just didn’t do it again. I felt I was not missing a thing not having sex and not masturbating.
I felt I was missing on stuff not being in a relationship, but that’s different. I need touch, I need comforting. I don’t need sex. So my libido is pretty much entirely reactive.
Unless I misunderstood that post, Schala wrote that as a reply to a post of mine, and if I came across as complaining about not having sex, then I expressed myself very poorly.
(I am fine with not having sex. I am annoyed about sometimes thinking about it involuntarily, since there are things I would rather be thinking of. When I was in a relationship and did have sex, this did not change, so it seems to me that at least for me it is not comparable to a thirst that needs quenching, just some kind of hormonal hiccup of the brain.)
Well then you might be able to relate more than you think you can.
An orgasm brought on by a person whom one cares for, and whom you find to be highly sexually appealing is one of the most spiritual experiences this atheist has ever had the pleasure to enjoy.
Masturbating is something I do to keep the angry little monkey in the back of my brain from flinging its poo at me.
Fulfilling sex with a person you are in love with and attracted to is something I do that makes me feel closer to God.
One is a chore, the other is enlightenment. At least for me.
Angry monkey in the back of the brain, that is a good metaphor.
Edit to add: I understand my preferences aren’t universal and maybe not even “normal” – as Noah spent so much time trying to explain in his post.
I suppose that for some people, the best, most soul-affirming sex could be 30 seconds of getting humped by a drunken stranger in the bathroom of a dance club.
I just want to say that sex with another person you are attracted to is fulfilling in a way (an important way, dammit) that masturbating is not. Attempting to put that into words here would do both sex, and Ozy’s servers a major disservice.
@Shora:
Since you’re so secure in your sex-positivity – I have to ask – is the sex you have with all these people any more … meaningful than with others? Or is your evaluation of them purely a mechanical-type of “this person best gets me off” kind of way?
The reason I ask is that if I lined up all of my past sexual partners, I could pretty quickly rank them by quality of sex. Assuming I cared about them all equally, I could also appreciate the variety of keeping a few of them around to keep things interesting.
But none of them could compare to the profound experience I have with my wife – she is head and shoulders above the rest in all “departments.” She is also the most fucking important person in the whole goddamn world to me.
When I hear you talk, you seem like you find small, quirky characters interesting in your mates – but you never seem to talk about any kind of profound OMG IT CAN BE THIS GOOD kind of way – which makes me curious if your sexuality is profoundly different than mine.
if I lined up all of my past sexual partners, I could pretty quickly rank them by quality of sex.
Wow, from my personal perspective that is actually one of the most bizarre statements about sex!
I sometimes do miss sex with a few of my exes, but not because it was better, just different in some ways.
Since I put it out there, I will say:
The number is 16, I know their first and last names and only one of them was a one-night stand. And I am on good terms with all but the ONS and my rapist.
You can rank 16 people and I am boggling my mind about 5 as if it were one of those 3 level chess games.
Other people’s sexuality: even the details are so foreign!
The paragraph about people with low libidos feeling alienated rang so true to me. I’d only recently heard of ‘asexuality’, but found it didn’t fully describe my views on sex. Sex is nice and everything, but it has never been very important to me. Often I found myself wishing it was just a one time deal, like checking a block. Meanwhile, it seems as if the entire world revolves around it at times, and I just don’t get it. I go years between boyfriends, and am always getting criticized by my male and female friends alike. One friend just simply could not grasp that I wasn’t constantly horny or in desperate need to be laid. It’s really enlightening to read your article and see that I’m not just broken or weird for once. The overall theme of varying libidos definitely seems true. Now it just comes to finding a man who will be okay with a so-called ‘frigid’ girl.
Oh yes, disparate libidos can cause such a gap in understanding. I’ve actually been thinking about this a lot recently because my roommate and I, who are the best of friends, absolutely cannot see eye to eye on matters of sex.
For instance, I recently started a friends with benefits relationship with my ex, because despite no longer being in love we’re still all kinds of attracted to each other and extremely sexually compatible, and both of us had gotten seriously sexually frustrated. My roommate has told me at length how she thinks I’m being entirely irresponsible and making a terrible mistake. And then she found out that I would unhesitatingly let homework slide if an opportunity for sex arose, and she was just like, “See, what did I say? Sex makes people irresponsible.”
Conversely, she had sex once, a few years ago, under circumstances she regrets. And she describes her assessment as essentially, “okay, I know what that’s like now. I don’t see any pressing need to do it again that can’t wait a while”. Me, I have days when I’m too horny to concentrate on studying once a month or so; I simply can’t comprehend that reaction.
Probably the most telling example, though, was a week or two ago when I was frustrated with my boy, and my roommate said to me totally seriously, “There’s an obvious solution to this. Just tell him you won’t have sex with him until he mans up and deals with [thing I was upset about].”
I just kind of gaped at her for a minute out of did you seriously just say that to me? before asking, “And why should I punish myself for his fail?”
And then she made a semi-joking comment about, “See, this is why we need more truth in stereotypes, for girls not to actually like sex so they can use it as a bargaining chip.”