Male Friendship

(hat tip to StartledOctopus)

This is an interesting video from Sociological Images (no transcript available and I don’t want to write an transcript of an hour-and-a-half video, sorry) about how gender affects friendship, although the audience appeared more interested in the fuzzy animal pictures. Also, just like the video, this article will come from a cisheteronormative perspective, simply because queers often have different friendship issues.

 The video’s discussion of men has some serious problems. It claims that male mate-guarding (i.e. “it’s so awesome your husband lets you have male friends!”) is rooted in the objectification and possession of women: in actuality, it’s probably rooted in the monogamous norm that you’re supposed to direct your erotic and emotional energy at one person at once– the same norm that causes women to be jealous of their husbands’ female friends, and that makes people dump their platonic friends as soon as a romantic relationship appears. (Queers, in my experience, are blessedly free of this stupidity.)

It also critiques video games using the overworked and cliche Grand Theft Auto and Rapelay examples (seriously, you’d think that if video games were so damn misogynistic they’d be able to find some new examples) and gonzo pornography: apparently they are not aware that what people choose to consume in their fantasy life is not the same thing as their actual opinions. It’s also interesting that they object to murdering sex workers in GTA but not, you know, all the other murdering you do in GTA. Is it somehow worse to murder people if they have a vagina?

This is not even to mention the sentence that was– I am not even joking– included in the video: “men have a hard time seeing women as human.” WHAT? I had to pause the video to glare at it. I think that that’s the epitome of how feminism without masculism is stumbling around in the dark unable to find a light-switch. Let me explain this in simple terms: the male gender role all too often involves treating (some) women as objects (see also: rape culture, catcalling). Men, being human beings, are fully capable of seeing women as human (I mean, what the fuck, have you not met a man?). The dissonance between the male gender role and what actual men do is a source of dissonance and role strain for many men. This is literally Sociology 101.

Also there’s a very tone-deaf defense of Nice Guys near the end, which I have no doubt will be rehashed endlessly in the comments for the edification and greater annoyance of everyone.

But my ranting aside, there are actually some really interesting points in the video– specifically, our culture serves to systematically devalue friendship in certain specific gendered ways.

The video roots the problems with male-female friendship from the male side in two issues: one, femmephobia; two, men being treated as hypersexual. Obviously, if society looks down upon generally on feminine things and specifically on feminine things done by men, you’re not going to see a whole lot of men participating in those sleepovers where you gossip endlessly about who said what to Janey and watch old Disney movies. Instead, if the men and the women want to hang out, the women will have to tag along to the dudes’ video-game-playing sessions, although of course they wouldn’t be allowed to play the video games because they’d probably, I don’t know, menstruate all over the controller.

…Or at least that was my high-school experience, which was the last time I hung around with significant numbers of straight cis gender-conforming men. Bleh.

A bit of a tangent: the video actually makes some really interesting points about sexualization in male-female friendship– that women are acceptable in the group as long as they’re pretty and don’t challenge the dudes– but I do think it misses another factor. A lot of women can become “one of the guys” by knowing their shit and deliberately desexualizing themselves such that the guys actively forget she’s female. I do that a lot.

The other factor is the hypersexuality of men, which plays out in this really crappy When Harry Met Sally way. Men can’t be friends with women, because of course they want to get in women’s pants. All women. Everywhere. Whether they’re attracted to them or not. Men are just horny beasts, you know. Obviously, this is untrue, as any woman who asks her male friends out (or for casual sex!) can attest. Even worse, this stereotype fucks things up for both men and women: men are less likely to become friends with women they don’t want to fuck, and women will assume a man befriending them wants to fuck them.

Male-male friendship has some serious other flaws, too. In part, men tend to do things with their friends, and women tend to talk with their friends. I would like to note, for anecdata purposes, that in my apartment right now there are two dudes playing Magic and two women talking about their feelings, so in my sample size of two friendships this video is exactly right. Men tend to do things with their friends because talking about your feelings is, well, kinda girly. It involves all sorts of gross unmanly stuff like admitting to weakness and vulnerability and emotions. Unfortunately, all that gross unmanly stuff is also necessary to build a strong, intimate friendship.

So instead men tend to do things together: sometimes the things they do together are problematic– binge drinking, excessive eating of “manly” and unhealthy food, gender-policing other men, objectifying women. But the problem goes deeper than that. In study after study, men report that their only source of emotional intimacy is their girlfriend or wife. Where does that leave single men? Men whose wives have died or divorced them, or whose girlfriends have broken up with them? Men whose wives are going through their own problems? Men who don’t want their wives to know about some trouble that they’re going through (perhaps a job loss or an infidelity)?

Nowhere.

One of the factors I found most interesting in the video is its discussion of “no homo.” No homo is obviously gender-policing and homophobic. However, the video argues that “no homo” actually creates a valuable space for genuine intimacy in male friendships: you can admit that (God forbid) you actually like your friends, but “no homo” reaffirms that it’s joking and that you’re really paragons of heterosexual masculinity. I hypothesize that the stereotypical drunk man saying “I love you, man” may also be a part of this.

The video presents an action plan for men to have better friendships. I have, of course, edited the list and provided my own commentary.

  • Stop trying so hard to be a real man. This is a “do what you can” situation. A lot of men experience a lot of negative pushback from denying masculinity ranging from mockery to violence, and you are not failing masculism by prioritizing your self-care over The Cause. Internal work is the most important work here: try to make yourself believe that simply by identifying as a man, you are a real man. No matter what you do, you can’t lose that status.
  • Befriend other men who “get it.” Human beings are social animals: that’s why kyriarchal shit has such power. If you’re in a group of people who are like “fuck social conditioning, we do what we want,” it’s easier to fuck social conditioning and do what you want.
  • Befriend women too. There’s a whole lot of social conditioning around the idea that women are pretty much for romantic relationships. We all know that’s bullshit, right? It’s only through intimate and non-romantic friendships that we can break this down.
  • Push back against other men who gender-police people. Men tend to gender-police men, and women gender-police women, so calling out your own gender’s sexism has a proportionately great effect.  It sounds kind of dorky, but I actually come up with semi-witty lines to shut down common kinds of female gender-policing (slut-shaming, prude-shaming, rape culture, beauty policing, diet talk); even frowning helps send the message that sexism Is Not Acceptable. As always, do what you can: you don’t have to call out every instance of sexism you see.
This entry was posted in blog responses, emotion, femmephobia, sexism and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

33 Responses to Male Friendship

  1. Schala says:

    “Instead, if the men and the women want to hang out, the women will have to tag along to the dudes’ video-game-playing sessions, although of course they wouldn’t be allowed to play the video games because they’d probably, I don’t know, menstruate all over the controller.

    …Or at least that was my high-school experience, which was the last time I hung around with significant numbers of straight cis gender-conforming men. Bleh.”

    I’m not too social, personally, but when my brother comes over, we don’t divide stuff in boy vs girl stuff. We’re all gamers here (me, my boyfriend, my brother), so it’s way easier to speak the same language without needing to actually say it. And we get drunk (my brother comes maybe twice a year) while making fools of ourselves playing retro games like Metal Slug, or having fun playing Marvel vs Capcom, or watching some movie(s).

    If I was more social and actually sought to enlarge my social circle. I’d find people who largely share interests with me, especially in the anime and videogame department, and people who are or accept non-normative people (like say, LGBT people) and even find it positive to buck social expectations (unrelated to LGBT stuff, but totally good to have). People who don’t think being manly or feminine is the thing to be or bust. People who don’t treat having sex with a trans woman as something that could only happen in drunken stupor and would never be agreed upon when sober. Or who think it makes them gay (or the trans woman, a man).

    Basically, I’d try to find a couple unicorns.

  2. ik says:

    What are the lines you came up with to shut down gender-policeing and slut shaming? I bitterly need some.

  3. Fizz says:

    I second the request for the gender-policing comebacks. Also:

    ‘A lot of women can become “one of the guys” by knowing their shit and deliberately desexualizing themselves such that the guys actively forget she’s female.’

    It doesn’t have to be deliberate. It also works if you know your shit but are “unfeminine,” or fat, or disabled, or anything else that causes the culture to desexualize you without your say-so.

  4. JE says:

    unfeminine in appearance. Traditionally unfeminine behavior not so much

  5. Jesus_marley says:

    ‘A lot of women can become “one of the guys” by knowing their shit and deliberately desexualizing themselves such that the guys actively forget she’s female.’

    I will be honest, I really don’t get this. Perhaps it’s because I’m not a gender normative kind of guy, but in my social circles, girls are just accepted no matter what we’re doing. My D&D group was 80% female and half of them were gay or bi. We all play video games. We all sit around and talk. Maybe not about our feelings but definitely how cool a villain Sephiroth still is x number of years later. There was never a need to desexualize anybody least of all yourself. It really never mattered to us if you were male or female, cis or trans, hetero or homo. The only time you would not be accepted was if you were a tool and even then you’d be given at least another chance.

  6. suturexself says:

    “Even worse, this stereotype fucks things up for both men and women: men are less likely to become friends with women they don’t want to fuck, and women will assume a man befriending them wants to fuck them.”

    This, god dammit this. I’m nearing a point where I don’t even bother trying to cultivate friendships with females because it’s inevitably assumed that I’m trying to get with them (actually had a female friend tell me the other night that I “have a crush on everybody”.. that was fun).

  7. dancinbojangles says:

    Jeez Ozy, it’s like you’ve got a direct line to my brain these days!. I had a similar reaction to the video, and was writing out an outraged comment… Until I actually got to the end and read the article proper. My brain’s alarms kind of started ringing when the speaker starts to talk about women “using men [to define their social worth,” but quickly changes it to “allowing men” as though she’s made a faux-pas. I also found it interesting that they were OK with talking about male-male friendships while not really having any input from men. It’s transparent that this comes from a non-masculist perspective, and there are some problems I have with it, but you’re totally right in saying that it has great points, especially about male-female friendships. Citation needed on the 44% figure on ATM porn though.

    Personally, I have a couple of close, intimate male friends, and it was extremely difficult to forge those relationships. To get to the point where I could cry in front of one of them or express any vulnerability took years of building trust, deep late-night conversations and, yes, manly bonding activities. We all want it not to be that hard, so we should all just… just make it not so hard. Troy and Abed are a great example, but they got that storyline wrong, as all the Community fans around will attest.

    Side note: Is anyone else tired of the term “problematic?” It’s just so dismissive. “I think this is a problem, therefore it IS a problem.”

  8. dancinbojangles says:

    Also, problems aside though, I think it’s great that they suggest that women be friends with men. They should be. Everyone should be able to be friends with everyone.

  9. “In part, men tend to do things with their friends, and women tend to talk with their friends.”

    I´ve always found this dichotomy a big hunk “whateveh” because it often ignores that much of the “doing” is only a social mcguffin to the more important part of male friendship, the talking. Of course sometimes playing Magic, videogames, or what have you are just examples of playing games. Though, I wonder, what we do with the example of women playing games together. Many of the women in my family have had weekly running card games, some of which are with a group that has been together for 30 years (yes, anecdotal, but still). Also, I´ve spent way more time sitting in pubs drinking and talking with my male (and female) friends than I´ve ever done “doing” stuff.

  10. dungone says:

    Ozy, friendship seems like a topic that’s ripe for exploration. I hope you do many posts on it. But, I have to correct you on something. This video does not offer a cisheteronormative perspective, it offers a feminist perspective. Big difference.

    I don’t know where to start even, but there are many reasons and many ways for making friends. You can make friends for friendship, for mating, for survival (or success), and for social status, and because you don’t have any other choice in the matter. You can try to retrofit existing friendships to serve new needs. You can also be the active or a passive participant in the process. And all of these things are crucial factors in friendships.

    On male mate-guarding, the video has a point, just for the wrong reasons. So what happens between men and women, I think, is a process of self selection. Women take on the passive role and don’t put any effort into making friends with men. And the vast majority of men meet new women in hopes of finding a new mate. Guys aren’t dumb, they pick up on this. They know when they’re dating a wallflower who tries to retrofit guys who have flirt with her into “friendships” and these sort of friendships are by and large unhealthy for the man, the woman, and the other men.

    So it’s nice to see some advice for what men can do in order to offer better friendships for women, but wouldn’t it also be nice to have a list of advice for what women can do to become better friends to men?

  11. dungone says:

    @havebookswilltravel, I want to echo what you said. Men determine whether or not they can trust another guy by doing things with him, which makes the process of doing things together important to the process of sharing feelings. Take games… you’re probably not going to want to share your feelings with a guy who blurts out inappropriate things when drunk and tries to cheat all the time. You can get a sense of how winners treat losers, how losers react to losing, who is more likely to cooperate, etc. It’s something that I would actually recommend that more women do with each other, not the other way around.

  12. Vicky says:

    Yes! long live platonic friendship! I believe that our culture prioritizes romantic relationships way too much. Not that sex and romance aren’t important, but let’s give equal time to other kinds of relationship. What about sibling relationships? friends? neighbors? mentors? I can think of at least two books-made-into-movies off the top of my head that were ruined when the writers shoehorned in a Hollywood Love Story.

  13. Ted says:

    Two, give me time and I’ll find dozens of ‘em

  14. kaija24 says:

    @Vicky, I agree! Friendships of different kinds give one a well-rounded network to draw on for favours, advice, social activities, support, shared interests, etc. One very detrimental thing that I see coming out of the emphasis on romantic relationships as the Holy Grail and the Only Important Relationship is that people often expect their partners to be everything to them and fulfill ALL of their needs when no one person is capable of that. This reliance on The Romance sets people up for disappointment and hurt that they project onto the other partner instead of placing it squarely on the unrealistic expectations. We should definitely value friends of all genders and try to give as much as we get from those relationships.

    I’ve always had a lot of male friends, usually much more than female friends, because many (though not all of) my interests, hobbies, and education/professional training have fallen in what are considered to be traditionally ‘male’ areas, but I suspect that having two brothers that I am close to has also influenced my ability to make and sustain male friendships. In fact, I have been rather disappointed that in adulthood, it gets harder to make and keep friendships with men in some cases because of the exact conflicts and expectations mentioned in the post. I would like this to change and am endeavouring to do my part!

  15. dungone says:

    @kaija24, did you just say that you’re into platonic friendships as a source of people to draw favors from?

    I had lots of female friends who only called me when they needed something and were very, very reluctant to do anything for me in return that wasn’t on their own terms. I have been friends with too many women who sort of weave rejection into the everyday interactions of the friendship. Sort of like, “sorry, I don’t want to see a movie with you tonight because that would give you the wrong idea and you’re not one of the men I’m dating right now… why don’t you ask one of your guy friends to go with you or go find a date? But listen, there’s some heavy boxes here and I was wondering if you could come move them for me tomorrow…” Let’s just say that I stopped being friends with those kinds of women long ago and I’m certainly not interested in that now.

  16. debaser71 says:

    As a “full fledged adult” (and sorry but I do not have a “nicer” way to say this…I’m open to what words I can use instead though) I find it almost impossible to make new friends. Acquaintances are easy to make but friends? I have my friends already. Other people have their friends already. Now add on things like work, children, responsibilities, etc, there’s not much time to just be hanging out bullshitting and having mindless fun with people such that they become friends. In college this was different. Even when I was a young adult at work this was different. But now, married, 40 years old, with three kids, making new friends is simply something I do not do often. Of the hundred of adults I have met over the past decade or so, only two have reached “friend” level. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that other full fledged adults have similar experiences. For example, I’ve read some forums for stay at home dads and one big complaint they sometimes have is that they moved to a new area and are now friendless and without any adult escapes to make new friends. My sister is in a similar situation. She and her family moved and now she’s stuck, friendless and without avenues to meet new people who want to make new adult friends.

  17. dungone says:

    @debaser71, I think that this is not a virtue of the type of adulthood you speak of, but one of the major faults. Both of my parents didn’t seem to make any new friends from their 40′s up until their 60′s, but now they are not only making new ones but also reconnecting with older ones. They had to learn a lot of very important life lessons before they got to that point. They also took charge of their health after they had “let themselves go” for nearly two decades. They also started dressing better. And their marriage has improved greatly along the way.

    I think that there is some hubris that comes with hitting one’s 40′s where people really think that they know what life’s all about by then, but I don’t see it that way. I think it’s a constant evolution. They may not see the value in a lot of things while they’re raising 3 girls, but eventually they’ll find themselves in the same position they were at in their early twenties – wondering what to do with the rest of their lives.

  18. debaser71 says:

    I was gonna comment that when people get older they do make new friends, like after retirement and when their kids are grown up. So I agree. Thanks for typing it out.

  19. kaija24 says:

    @dungone: Selective reading with the conclusion that it’s a plot against men by evil women…in other words, the usual. *le sigh*. Go back and read ALL the words minus your negative translation filter please. e.g., i.We should definitely value friends of all genders and try to give as much as we get from those relationships and Friendships of different kinds give one a well-rounded network to draw on for favours, advice, social activities, support, shared interests, etc. I didn’t think I had to explicitly state that the friendship exchange is a two-way street as I consider that to be a crucial part of “friendship”, in contrast to exploitative arrangements, paid services, etc. I don’t live in the same world that you do, by all your examples.

  20. dungone says:

    @kaija24, I should have put in a good word for the other things you said and I think I may have just been tired and a little distraught this morning – I didn’t really finish that comment, it wasn’t coming along very well, but I just posted what I had. Then I took a nap. Just one of those days.

    I don’t actually disagree with what you said, especially since you said that you were eager to do your part to improve the way in which you make friends. But many people go into friendships thinking themselves to be an equal contributor when they’re really not. And this often breaks down into gender role issues when it’s a friendship between men and women. Which is actually why, as a matter of fact, I feel that it needs to be said that it’s a two way street and that it takes a little bit of sifting through our collective gender filter to actually see what this means.

  21. Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant says:

    Everyone always wonders why The Shawshank Redemption is consistently at the top of the IMDb Top 250. I mean, it’s an excellent film, but among the best ever made? Of course not. But it strikes a chord with men because:

    - It is about a strong male friendship, and really, that’s it. It’s a narrow focus
    - The relationship is not sexual.
    - Nor played for comedy, with cheap gay jokes and other bullshit like that.
    - There is no gratuitous sex shit or scenes with women solely meant to establish the two guys as MANLY STRAIGHT DUDES, DON’T GET ANY IDEAS THEY REALLY ARE STRAIGHT.
    - It does not apologize for any of the above.

    I’m frankly having a hard time thinking of a single other movie like that. Certainly none as good as Shawshank. It’s actually a TV show that probably comes the closest (House and Wilson, although that’s slightly different, because House’s paramount relationship has always been with his work or some woman). Thanks Mr. King.

  22. Hugh says:

    There’s also a fair number of “LOLZ HOUSE AND WILSON ARE TOTES GAY” jokes, and even an episode based around it (although the episode was actually fairly good for what its premise was)

  23. Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant says:

    My favorite line (it’s in both the movie and the novella) is “I hope to see my friend and shake his hand” spoken by Red in the ending monologue. That’s it. No fucking bullshit or dancing around it. They are clearly the most important person in the other’s life, but simply as platonic friends. This never happens. And with that line (I know it’s not the intent, but I read it this way) it’s almost like the movie/book is pushing that, and challenging the viewer to object. Awesome.

  24. The_L says:

    “It’s also interesting that they object to murdering sex workers in GTA but not, you know, all the other murdering you do in GTA. Is it somehow worse to murder people if they have a vagina?”

    I think the reason so many people single that out in particular is so that they can point out the “this game has prostitutes in it” and “this game has murder in it” aspects with one example. It’s an easy way to say “Hey, giving this game to a small child is a REALLY BAD IDEA” without going through a long list. “You can kill prostitutes to raise your score” combines most of the things parents are concerned about: sex, violence, and the idea that you can get away with criminal behavior.

  25. dungone says:

    @The_L, that’s a real stretch. The game already has a rating on it for adults and that wasn’t the point. The comment that was made was in reference to the fact that this one video game is used by feminists to condemn the entire video game industry as being sexist in contexts where children are not given any consideration. Unless, of course, you consider adult men to be “children” which is apparently the entire problem here.

  26. Doug S. says:

    Unless, of course, you consider adult men to be “children” which is apparently the entire problem here.

    A sixteen-year-old is, physiologically, basically an adult, regardless of what our society would have you think. At the age of 16, Alexander the Great was ruling Macedonia in his father’s absence and defeated a rebellion. The popular image of “adolescence” and “teenage rebellion” is, at least in part, an artifact of modern culture and education. In particular, it’s an artifact of age-segregated education that’s conducted in facilities that possess the essential characteristics of prisons: you’re not allowed to leave, there are people who have absolute power over you, and you’re not allowed to choose your peer group.

    The grand champions of the Oppression Olympics are the class of people called “children”.

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  28. Schala says:

    @Doug

    Really really interesting essay on how schools are so damn screwed up nowadays. I agree with 100% of it, as one of those who “opted out” without being a nerd, nor a freak (at least, I wasn’t in any group). I was an alien, a “weird one”, a loner, an angel. That weird one who isn’t fat, with glasses or disabled. Just weird.

    And that world almost killed me. If you add being trans on top, it’s a wonder I even made it alive (I probably would have killed myself before hitting 20).

  29. writelhd says:

    debaser: “As a fully-fledged-adult, I find it almost impossible to make new friends. Acquaintances are easy to make but friends? I have my friends already. Other people have their friends already.”

    This. I’m in the “young adult at work” stage, but yes, this. It seems to me that “doing” things is how friends are forged in this new non-school life, no matter the gender, I am always struggling to come up with things to do with both male and female potential friends in hopes to create a reason for us to spend more time together rand maybe move past “acquaintance” stage, but I’d really love to just sit and talk with some folks and get to know him or her better without necessarily having to be doing something. I ought to just ask! I suppose…

    When I think about it, the prospect of asking a fellow woman to just sit and talk isn’t as daunting as the prospect of asking a man, and I suspect this is because I don’t think I understand how men make and maintain friendships as well as I understand how women do. I’m just afraid I’d bore him to tears or something.

  30. Dorkboy says:

    @dungone – It’s about the larger attitude toward video games in our culture. They are, as a whole, still regarded as “for children.” The people complaining about murder and prostitution in GTA, which legally cannot be sold to anyone under 18? They’re the parents who bought the game for their nine-year-old son because he asked for it, thinking that because it’s a video game it must be meant for him. Instead of looking at the game first to see if it’s appropriate, they assume it will be and then complain when it isn’t, even though it was never made for children in the first place.

  31. dungone says:

    Dorkboy, so let me get this straight… if a feminist author of a feminist gender blog writes about GTA being sexist, then it’s because she never heard of GTA having scenes where women get killed and bought it for her kid? Doubt it. That’s all I was saying.

  32. Schala says:

    I do agree with Dorkboy though.

    Videogames in general where at first pretty much “all ages”. It was pretty hard to have a target demographic when you could hardly make out what was on screen anyways. 4 bits and 8 bits (1st, 2nd and 3rd generation of consoles – Nintendo ‘s NES being in the 3rd), whoever or whatever the main character(s) were, the difficulty and addictiveness of certain games made them good for anyone (though you needed a LOT of patience).

    16 bits (4th generation, including SNES) was somewhat better. You could start to identify what those sprites on screen were, and they could talk, and have some 16 bit cutscenes, and some reasonable scenarios. I guess for-kids games started appearing there (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island), but the market was still a majority of “for all ages” stuff.

    32-64 bits (5th generation, including PlayStation 1 and Nintendo 64) had Nintendo specialize in more ‘kiddy stuff’ than its competition (which included Dreamcast, 3DO, Saturn and PlayStation 1), although it still had a large chunk of “for all ages stuff”.

    128 bits (6th generation, including PlayStation 2 and GameCube) crowned the PS2 as the best selling console of all times. It has all genres of games, and many 3rd party developers who wanted to push their tech to the metal, while delivering innovative stuff. GameCube kept using a sort of polygonal tech of display, reminiscent of Pokémon character’s puffyness.

    Parents saw them more and more as “for kids”, while probably not knowing for what market the other consoles were. But the people who grew up with the NES in their youth (like me, I’m 29) are adults now. Their tastes might include Kirby and co…but also might be desiring something more, like realistic looking Final Fantasy games, or more complex games than the lack-of-scenario games we had in our youth. The first Legend of Zelda was an exercise in guessing where to go and what to do, given the only people who talked to you at all were vendors and a few weird guys in orange togas in certain caves and dungeons, giving you cryptic hints. The scenario was in the booklet and in the ending (like two sentences), pretty much entirely.

    Like people who watch cartoons and anime specially made for kids (like Pokémon – though technically it was made more for young teens) and think everything is like that. They haven’t seen Elfen Lied or Princess Tutu. I’d give both of them at least a 16+ rating. They have blood, and death, and complicated dramas. Or Mai HiME, where pretty much the entire cast dies during it, fighting each other.

    And there’s an audience for those animes.

  33. Dorkboy says:

    Unless, of course, you consider adult men to be “children” which is apparently the entire problem here.

    This is what I was responding to, and Schala expanded on my point very nicely.

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