I often enjoy, and am often really frustrated by, Mistress Matisse’s column in the Seattle Stranger. This one, however, is bang-on and deals with an issue that people don’t talk about enough. (Well, we do around here, but that’s kind of our thing.)
She’s absolutely right that there’s a reading of male sexual presentation that we often overlook; we tend to think of it as homoerotic because of the assumed male gaze, but it’s also often presented as ridiculous or comical. Ha-ha, a guy thinks he can be sexually attractive! Talk about crazy, amirite?
Let’s look at two very different male stripping scenes for a moment.
First there’s this one from American Pie, a movie I remain fond of, despite its later becoming a dismal franchise. It has a nice implicit female gaze going on in the form of Nadia, but there’s no question that it’s essentially a joke. Indeed, the very existence of Nadia’s female gaze is presented as a that-never-happens joke: It’s so weird that she’d want to see Jason Biggs dancing naked! What a crazy turn of events!
This one from The Full Monty, however, is unequivocally positive. The movie is a comedy, but this scene isn’t the funny part, it’s the life-affirming happy ending. These men, all ages and types, are dead sexy, and everyone thinks so! Let’s all cheer for them!
(Really, all of The Full Monty is an interesting examination of roles of masculinity, as it’s a tale of economically displaced men who become strippers because there’s no jobs going. It reminds me of Sam’s insightful comment from a while back about men who can’t imagine a scenario where they’re actually wanted, and thus focus too much on being needed. The Full Monty is about a group of men who’ve been told by their society that they are not needed, and who instead discover that they’re still wanted. But that’s getting sidetracked.)
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: ladies, tell the men in your life that they’re sexy. Mainstream culture sure as hell isn’t going to do it.
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No, Seriously, What About Teh Menz? 
I’m a lesbian, but one thing I always liked about Queer as Folk was that they made men sexy. Although it was largely presented through the male gaze, men were the sexual objects as well.
Do straight/bisexual women have shows like QAF? Do straight/bisexual men have shows where they see themselves as being sexy through the female gaze?
It doesn’t seem like it.
Or to give a more recent example, this video that just came out from LMFAO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyx6JDQCslE
They’re being a bit ridiculous to try to play it up for laughs, so I’m not sure exactly how I feel about it.
Thor had some adorable female-gaze scenes in the beginning.
I particularly liked the line, ‘does he need CPR? Because I know CPR!’
Doctor Who has some very nice Female Gaze scenes too. Like in the Eleventh Hour, the very attractive Matt Smith (Eleven) is changing, Rory (the boyfriend who will eventually turn awesome but is for now Mickey V 2) wants Amy to turn around but she smirks out a “nope”.
dogpossum has a blog post about male sexualization and the female/queer gaze in (solo and partnered) blues dancing here: http://dogpossum.org/2011/05/hot-male-bodies/ (with videos, but only one of them contains a bit of stripping 😉 )
I’m not sure if I completely agree, but I found that post quite interesting.
Issue hits close home here. Would like to feel sexy but somehow couldn’t. Wife couldn’t help either as she appears to be very passive. Kind of sad…
Doctor Who has some very nice Female Gaze scenes too. Like in the Eleventh Hour, the very attractive Matt Smith (Eleven) is changing, Rory (the boyfriend who will eventually turn awesome but is for now Mickey V 2) wants Amy to turn around but she smirks out a “nope”.
Or the episode “The Doctor’s Wife” when the Doctor tells the TARDIS to call Amy and the TARDIS asks, “Which one is Amy?”. Doctor says, “The cute one.” TARDIS proceeds to call Rory…
^ Hee. The TARDIS has taste, she also called the Doctor her “beautiful idiot”.
As I once acted in an amateur performance of “Ladies’ Night” (which basically is “The Full Monty” as a play, although the legal aspects are a bit more complicated), I feel like I *should* have something to contribute to this.
Maybe the most surprising thing (to me) might be that the (female) cheers during/after the climactic performance (yes, we went the “full monty”, but there was a lot of light technics involved to blind the audience just before our willies would be visible, which, frankly, I thought a bit prudish) didn’t make me feel as sexy as some cheers/applause after I rocked a song at a Karaoke night, which in itself can’t hold a candle to a woman coming straight up to me and dancing with me.
Take from that whatever you want 🙂
I loved it when my gf would stare at my ass. I wanted to be someone she wanted to be rocked by.
Didn’t start feeling sexy or attractive until I dated an older woman. She doesn’t have so many hang ups about drooling over me. 😉
Dunno if I’ll ever date women my own age again… heh heh.
I’m a bit of a lurker, and I usually read through a feed, so I apparently missed this comment: “…men who can’t imagine a scenario where they’re actually wanted, and thus focus too much on being needed.”
It’s nothing to do with the article for which I apologize, but I wanted to thank you for reprinting it because a whole lot of what I’ve been off-and-on fighting with my husband over for the last six months, but he couldn’t put into words, just crystallized into understanding.
Contributing to this is the way that many women in our culture feel that they shouldn’t care about looks or physical attraction lest they be superficial or insufficiently nice. Many seem to see it as some kind of moral issue and as a point of pride in their gender – evidenced in derisive comments about how superficial men (supposedly) are. IMO this contributes to many men not experiencing the wonderful feeling of being intensely desired, and many women missing out on the equally wonderful feeling of intensely desiring, all adding up to crappier sex lives for everyone.
I think that’s why I insist that when I go clothes shopping my SO will come with me. It’s also that I don’t trust my taste some, but the way i can strut out of the changing stall is a major part of what makes it fun rather then pain.
I’m not sure I see the issue. The female gaze is getting more and more recognition and men are frequently sex symbols. Just watch any Twilight movie to see what I’m talking about, they’re rife with excuses to show Robert Pattinson’s prettily tortured sparkling face, and Taylor Lautner’s impeccably shaped abs. I watched New Moon with a woman in a her 50s, and despite the age difference, we could both appreciate it for what it was.
Now, the cases where a guy who’s rarely in good shape, or has a remarkably handsome face, or looks like he’s younger than 30, or use make-up or other enhancers, can walk up to a woman and immediately become a sex symbol to her for no reason are few and far between, but that’s not particularly gendered. The Full Monty is not about how the idea that men can be sexy is laughable, it’s about the humour and awkwardness of average men trying to be like the Chippendales (whom the women of the town had no problem sexualising).
And its female counterpart is not the many stories of a young, slim, and insanely attractive girl realising that she too can be sexy when she loses her glasses and dress for it, it’s movies like Calendar Girls, where much of the humour is also derived from the absurdity of ‘normal’ middle-aged women posing nude. And incidentally, I believe Calender Girls is mostly a feel-good movie for women.
A lot of the videos and examples of men pretending to act sexy in a humorous way are of men who’re not stereotypically sexy (or alternatively, are so over-the-top that many people all sexes find them ridiculous, like the stripper with the fake tan, absurdly pouty lips and gigantic fake breasts) and who act more sexual than sexy. I’ve seen youtube videos of average looking girls acting sexy and getting a lot of negative comments for it too, but generally, average looking women are more commonly treated as tragic and pitiful than humorous.
If I thought that I could make any kind of money off of it at all, I’d grab a webcam and start my own internet Amateur porn site.
Though at the moment, my videos are of the family (or at least non-porn) variety. But I’m not here to shill my wares.
@AB I think the main problem is that there’s still a mindset of “men are inherently trolls, women are inherently sexy”, even thought by men themselves. And pretty boy celebrities with fangirls are often derided, just look at early-style Leonardo DiCaprio or, ugh, Justin Bieber. (I only loathe him for being a marketing tool, not because other girls find him attractive.)
@Emmeline On Leonardo DiCaprio – I wouldn’t say he was so much Sproutface these days, possibly as he is maturing into a look, the beardy/facial-hairy thing working for him. (Sproutface being what British Comedians Stewart Lee (funny feller, wrote Jerry Springer the Opera) and Richard Herring once nicknamed DiCaprio)
@Emmeline:
“@AB I think the main problem is that there’s still a mindset of “men are inherently trolls, women are inherently sexy”, even thought by men themselves.”
I know there is a mindset of “there is a mindset of “men are inherently trolls, women are inherently sexy”” in places like here, but I’m curious about where people see that mindset expressed. The women who’re held up as being the epitome of sexiness are women like Megan Fox, who doesn’t look like anything most women could hope of achieving.
Models in magazines (and even images of movie stars) are usually of women who’re already unusually pretty, who work out and diet constantly, get beauty treatments most other women can’t afford, have gotten cosmetic surgery, wear make-up, get professional hairdressers and special products to make their hair look just right, wear clothes and shoes designed to give their body a certain shape, pose in order to look as sexy as possible, and are then photoshopped in order to adjust all the stuff that can’t be changed physically. And that’s after many of the images have already been discarded for not being flattering enough. I have a hard time seeing how that confirms the beauty of women, when these images don’t even look like the women they’re portraying, because those women weren’t pretty enough.
In The Full Monty, it was made clear that the local women were already willing to pay to see men naked (the Chippendales), so it seems pretty likely that those men were considered sexy. I think a movie where a bunch of frumpy housewives, who didn’t wear make-up or work out, started to practice stripping would be considered unusual too, though the line between humour and disgust would probably have been thinner.
In the stripping scene in American Pie hadn’t been of a female student who’s considered extremely hot and a male student who’s not, but had instead been about an assertive American school girl who made a shy British exchange student (played by Orlando Bloom) perform a strip-tease for her, I’m pretty sure the reaction would have been a lot different, especially if he turned out to be good at it. You’d have lustful girls screaming for more, not a bunch of guys acting like it was ridiculous.
“And pretty boy celebrities with fangirls are often derided, just look at early-style Leonardo DiCaprio or, ugh, Justin Bieber. (I only loathe him for being a marketing tool, not because other girls find him attractive.)”
But men who just have fangirls are not. In my childhood, Sean Connery was considered the epitome of sexiness even for many women, and yet he had more male than female fans. In my experience, there are two kinds of male sexiness which men like and generally respond positively to. The first is the superman who’s tough, cool, resourceful, macho, and gets the (hot) girl by doing something, or being someone, really impressive (Connery is in that category). The second is the average guy who doesn’t look very impressive but who’s sweet, funny, stands up for what he believes in, and shows that you don’t have to be especially buff or good looking to still get the (hot) girl.
The third mind of sexy, the kind where the guy is lusted after by women mainly for being young and having a cute face, smooth skin, and a ‘perfect’ figure, doesn’t appeal to most men, it’s more likely to disgust them. And that kind of sexiness is about 95% of female sexiness you see in the media too. Movies about an average/unattractive person who goes through some character development and end up with the guy/girl of their dreams seem more likely to use an actual average looking actor if the character is male than female, and more likely to have the character go through a physical transformation if the character is female, so I’m not quite sure where exactly the world tells me that I’m attractive enough as I am because of my sex.
AB:I know there is a mindset of “there is a mindset of “men are inherently trolls, women are inherently sexy”” in places like here, but I’m curious about where people see that mindset expressed. The women who’re held up as being the epitome of sexiness are women like Megan Fox, who doesn’t look like anything most women could hope of achieving.
Bear in mind that in the script of being a man while women like Megan Fox are at a standard of beauty that most women could never achieve as men we are supposed to find a much wider range of women sexy than just Megan Fox level women. Its related to the mixed signals of men supposedly being so picky about women that we commit various -isms (like racism against women that are “too dark”) while at the same time we supposedly want to have sex with any and all women (even when said women don’t want to).
You could just about replace that “men are inherently trolls, women are inherently sexy” with “women never lust for men, men are always lusting for women”. Now of course there are indeed women who lust for men and there are men who aren’t always lusting for women (and that’s before you even get to gay men).
Movies about an average/unattractive person who goes through some character development and end up with the guy/girl of their dreams seem more likely to use an actual average looking actor if the character is male than female, and more likely to have the character go through a physical transformation if the character is female, so I’m not quite sure where exactly the world tells me that I’m attractive enough as I am because of my sex.
In some of those movies with the female going through the physical transformation there’s sometimes at least one character that will bring up the point of, “you were sexy/beautiful/attractive already”. And it seems that character is sometimes a guy that’s deemed “undesirable” (and by that I don’t just mean that said female character wasn’t interested in him which is fine, I mean that he is presented in a matter in which it would seem almost impossible for anyone to find him desirable).
@AB: All I can say is, talk to the men around you about this issue. Or, if you have a male partner, just give him a frank compliment about his body and watch him go “huh??? wha????” Unless things are quite different in the place where you live, men are decidedly not used to being seen as beautiful, as something gorgeous to be appreciated and beheld. At least, not in my experience. It took my boyfriend a few months to get used to the intensity of my “female gaze”…
@kilo, that post is great! I love the partner dancing videos.
@Danny:
“Bear in mind that in the script of being a man while women like Megan Fox are at a standard of beauty that most women could never achieve as men we are supposed to find a much wider range of women sexy than just Megan Fox level women.”
But these women are just rarely shown. Sure, there are other women commonly presented as sex symbols, such as Angelina Jolie, Gwyneth Paltrow, Beyoncé Knowles, Natalie Portman, Scarlett Johansen etc., but average looking women are rarely portrayed as being these awesomely sexy creatures who’re loved just the way they are even by men who could have ‘better’.
“Its related to the mixed signals of men supposedly being so picky about women that we commit various -isms (like racism against women that are “too dark”) while at the same time we supposedly want to have sex with any and all women (even when said women don’t want to).”
I think it’s a difference between honestly finding someone attractive, and to consider them adequate for for the purpose of getting some physical relief. A male comedian here said that men had various levels of attractiveness, starting with the women who were so wonderful you felt like writing a romantic poem about her shoulder blades, going down to the woman who was merely hot, and then, as he said “Then it gets worse. It becomes “She’s kind of pretty…. for a hobbit” and then it becomes even worse, like when you go “Come on Carsten (his buddy), you’d do her. If you were on Ibiza and she’d passed out in a fountain somewhere, with a paper bag over her head… You’d do it””. And he has a point, it’s often not considered a testament to her attractiveness if a man wants to have sex with a woman, it’s just considered something he does as a reflex, almost like pissing, to relieve a need which has nothing to do with her.
I know you’re going to make some argument about how the male touch is not considered as precocious and rewarding as the female touch, and this is the reason it’s not as flattering for women to have men want to have sex with them, but it’s not that. I’ve never seen a guy gain status after being chased after by a girl who was not considered attractive, but I have seen plenty of girls whose status increased as handsome or popular guys showed interest in them. It’s all relative that way. No, the real reason is that a lot of the time, even the women who’re good enough to fuck are considered interchangeable. When I’m with a guy, unless he actively does something to make me feel special, I consider it a given thing that you could exchange me with practically every other woman in my age group and it wouldn’t make a lot of difference to him. And most of the time, I’m right.
If you’re hungry, you’re going to eat what’s in front of you unless it’s absolutely disgusting. That doesn’t make it a fine meal which you’ll praise the cook for and remember afterwards, it’s just filling a need. If men are just considered hungrier than women, having sex with them is not a testament to the tastiness of women, quite the contrary. Men who go out of their way to describe the women they’re willing to sleep with as disgusting (e.g. “I’d do her if she had a bag over her head”) are not saying that women are desirable, and neither are they saying that the woman they’d have sex with is special and worthy of regard. They’re saying that they attribute about as much significance to sex as they do to taking a dump, and consider the women they’re doing it with about as attractive as a toilet.
“You could just about replace that “men are inherently trolls, women are inherently sexy” with “women never lust for men, men are always lusting for women”. Now of course there are indeed women who lust for men and there are men who aren’t always lusting for women (and that’s before you even get to gay men).”
The problem with this is that with movies like Twilight, which are selling themselves almost purely on catering to the female gaze, and the explosion of erotic fan-fiction about both real men and characters portrayed by male actors, it’s becoming increasingly hard to sell the idea that women are not lusting after men. And it’s also becoming harder to argue that most people aren’t well aware of the fact that women lust after men. If men do not feel sexy because the men women are shown to lust after does not look like them, they’re only now beginning to discover what women have known for ages: Having people go crazy over some idealised version of a member of your sex does not make you any more confident in your own sexiness when you don’t fit that ideal.
We’re dealing with a general issue of the media setting the bar for attractiveness so ridiculously high, being so ridiculously narrow about what constitutes attractiveness, and being so ridiculously obsessed with only showing attractive people, that the rest of the population is feeling increasingly insecure and alienated. And that’s a real issue, especially when it’s quite possible to still make engaging stories with the characters showing a variety of physical appearances.
“In some of those movies with the female going through the physical transformation there’s sometimes at least one character that will bring up the point of, “you were sexy/beautiful/attractive already”. And it seems that character is sometimes a guy that’s deemed “undesirable” (and by that I don’t just mean that said female character wasn’t interested in him which is fine, I mean that he is presented in a matter in which it would seem almost impossible for anyone to find him desirable).”
I’m not sure what you mean by that. The point I was making was that it is rare to see a dorky girl get an attractive guy if she wasn’t beautiful all along, while it is pretty common to see a dorky guy get a an attractive girl without needing to change the way he looks, or looking that good to begin with. The moral of the latter kind of movie seems to be that it doesn’t matter that you don’t look like a model, you can still be popular and get a hot romantic partner. The point of the former kind of movie is that all women can become popular, desired, and treated as if they beautiful, as long as they were conventionally attractive to begin with. There is also often a moral about the girl learning to not judge her love on superficial qualities, which I don’t see replicated very often with guys.
@AB I have to just repeat what F says. A lot of your posts seem to be “I never notice this thing against men ergo it must never happen!” and it’s quite frustrating. Maybe it doesn’t happen where you live but think about it this way: in order for a man to have fangirls he has to be Sean Connery. In order for a woman to get (admittedly often unwanted) unsolicited compliments, she has to be… someone with breasts that are visible from thirty paces. This double-standard SUCKS as a man… and I’m pretty sure it sucks as a woman too.
I’ve only ever had the “female gaze” from girlfriend who were conscious about gender issues… and even then I almost always felt like it wasn’t spontaneous but as a response to the fact that I could honestly sit there for hours staring at my girlfriends because they are *that beautiful* to me. I still don’t feel like anyone in my life really looks at me and thinks, “damn, I wanna get in that guy’s pants.” The ones who do? Are probably gay men. *That’s* the culture that men are brought up with.
Hell, look at popular TV shows. Familiy Guy is about a fat arsehole who has a smoking hot wife. According to Jim: compare their relative attractive levels. How many attractive women are on Two and a Half Men, while Charlie’s “sexiness” is portrayed as this super-ridiculously-rare “gift” that never actually happens but LAWL HE INVOKES THE SAME HORNINESS IN WOMEN THAT WOMEN INVOKE IN MEN.
You talk about how Leonardo DeCaprio is positioned as sexy, to which I can only say, “… huh?”
You talk about Edward Cullen and the guy who plays him, but I promise his sexiness came from the fact that he was playing Edward, a character who it feels like the vast majority of teenage females fantasized about (and for god knows what reason… he set off my CREEPY detector within the first twenty pages of the first book).
So trust me when I say: men feel like they can’t be sexy… just like some women feel like shit because they’re not a size 0.
I tell the men in my life they are beautiful and sexy. I enjoy taking them to dinner, opening doors for them and reminding them how amazing they look when they’re wearing a special shirt I know they put on just for me. I’m a mostly gay woman and it takes a very rare man to hold my attention for very long. When one comes a long, I give him the same attention I enjoy receiving. Gender shouldn’t dictate behavior. My men are sexy and I tell them every time I see them and I know they enjoy hearing it.
@AB, re: your last post, I agree that all of those things are things that exist. It’s not much fun to be ranked as a sex object of varying quality all the time, nor to be told, “eh, you’re good enough for sex, but I’d never bring you around to meet my friends” – I agree.
But I don’t know, is any of that actually a rebuttal to the existence of the Myth of Men Not Being Hot? Why can’t the guys who put women through some shit, also be going through their own shit?
Also, I feel like there’s this thing where guys have to be movie star hot to actually be considered hot by most women? I mean, I know that there are plenty of male milieux where the same opinion is common when it comes to women and the only “10s” are, like, Maxim cover model lookin’. But as SG says, I definitely feel like even among progressive women, everyday hot guys are not considered hot enough to seriously comment on it.
Of course, this discussion wouldn’t be happening if there weren’t STILL stigma around female desire. Everyone loves it when the ladies are sexy… But when the ladies find you sexy? That’s still a confusing concept for some.
Like, when I saw this: http://www.buzzfeed.com/provincialelitist/hall-of-fame-football-player-covers-gay-magazine and sent it to a couple of friends (both women and men who I knew would appreciate) one of my female friends was like, “HOT DAMN, why don’t we get pictures like that on the cover of women’s magazines, instead of some airbrushed female model?” But I doubt that people in the publishing industry would seriously consider that. On some level Out does super sexy photographs of men because they know that they are making a publication for people who have a sex drive and appreciate being the “gazers”. Cosmo and its spineless sisterclones don’t do that, because they think their audience is mostly interested in being gazed at.
AB:
But these women are just rarely shown. Sure, there are other women commonly presented as sex symbols, such as Angelina Jolie, Gwyneth Paltrow, Beyoncé Knowles, Natalie Portman, Scarlett Johansen etc., but average looking women are rarely portrayed as being these awesomely sexy creatures who’re loved just the way they are even by men who could have ‘better’.
While it is true that that’s not what you see all over the media there is still the fact that when it comes to male sexuality there is a lot of, “You don’t want to have sex with her? What’s wrong with you?” And that “her” is not always a Megan Fox level woman.
I think it’s a difference between honestly finding someone attractive, and to consider them adequate for for the purpose of getting some physical relief.
Not quite because that range I mention applies to both to those one would want to just have meaningless sex with and those who they find deeply attractive.
I’ve never seen a guy gain status after being chased after by a girl who was not considered attractive, but I have seen plenty of girls whose status increased as handsome or popular guys showed interest in them.
I have.
The problem with this is that with movies like Twilight, which are selling themselves almost purely on catering to the female gaze, and the explosion of erotic fan-fiction about both real men and characters portrayed by male actors, it’s becoming increasingly hard to sell the idea that women are not lusting after men.
Its only relatively recently becoming a problem. Even the example you pick is one from only within the last decade.
superglucose:
You talk about Edward Cullen and the guy who plays him, but I promise his sexiness came from the fact that he was playing Edward, a character who it feels like the vast majority of teenage females fantasized about (and for god knows what reason… he set off my CREEPY detector within the first twenty pages of the first book).
That might be true considering that after the first Twilight movie he was in a film with Pierce Brosnan (which I can’t even think of the name right now). Oh and before Twilight he was a character in an entry in another major franchise but remained under the radar until Twilight.
I consider myself very lucky that I have experienced the “female gaze” from a few women. Very few things, imo, are better than having a woman you’re insanely attracted to lean over and purr in your ear “I want to devour you right now.”
Especially since i tend to lean more to the submissive end of the spectrum (especially with the woman in question *cough*)
Im not new to female gaze either. Bein a DJ I attract lot of women and girls….and befriend hundred of them. And I have also seen lot of guys getting chased around by girls (both in private parties -no drugs involved-, rave, clubs and real life). So the meme that women dont gaze or dont chase guys….I can calmly draw it off as a crock.
@Ken, so what you’re saying is I’m ugly?
superglucose: so what you’re saying is I’m ugly?
My good superglucose, it wasnt a reply on you personally, just some random experiences I had in thise few years as DJ. And it is impossible for me to claim your uglyness, since I dont even know you….
Unless Im misunderstanding your point, and instead asking me a opinion on your estetic, you may trying to tell me that you didnt experienced female gaze and therefore you most be ugly? correct me if im wrong. I think the explanation can be found in the cultural make up in your location. Skandinavian are known to be kinda free, and I personally didnt experience much female hunt before I settled in Denmark (im from Italy). So defently a cultural thing.
I worked as a club promoter for a couple of years, got the job by accident. The amount of female attention I suddenly got surprised me. Sadly, it had more to do with the fact that I was in control of the guest-list than with my looks.
@superglucose:
“@AB I have to just repeat what F says. A lot of your posts seem to be “I never notice this thing against men ergo it must never happen!” and it’s quite frustrating.”
And it’s frustrating for me that most of what I’m talking about is actually women, and yet people feel entitled to act angrily towards me and accuse of not showing enough understanding to men when I contradict their claims about what women experience.
“Maybe it doesn’t happen where you live but think about it this way: in order for a man to have fangirls he has to be Sean Connery. In order for a woman to get (admittedly often unwanted) unsolicited compliments, she has to be… someone with breasts that are visible from thirty paces. This double-standard SUCKS as a man… and I’m pretty sure it sucks as a woman too.”
Here we go again. It’s not enough for you establish what men supposedly have to do to be attractive, you also feel entitled to make unfounded claims about women. A lot of these shouts are not compliments. If they were compliments, men who heard accounts of street-harassment would be horrified that what they’d seen as praise was actually considered threatening for women, and they would immediately stop. Looking up compliment in the dictionary, it says
noun
1: an expression of praise, commendation, or admiration: A sincere compliment boosts one’s morale.
2: a formal act or expression of civility, respect, or regard: The mayor paid him the compliment of escorting him.
3: compliments, a courteous greeting; good wishes; regards: He sends you his compliments.
verb (used with object)
5: to pay a compliment to: She complimented the child on his good behavior.
6: to show kindness or regard for by a gift or other favor: He complimented us by giving a party in our honor.
7: to congratulate; felicitate: to compliment a prince on the birth of a son.
Notice words such as admiration, civility, respect, courteous greeting, to show kindness and regard. None of that match giving unsolicited and frequently agressive comments to women you don’t care about and who don’t like it. Calling harassment a compliment is only one step above calling rape a compliment.
“I’ve only ever had the “female gaze” from girlfriend who were conscious about gender issues… and even then I almost always felt like it wasn’t spontaneous but as a response to the fact that I could honestly sit there for hours staring at my girlfriends because they are *that beautiful* to me. I still don’t feel like anyone in my life really looks at me and thinks, “damn, I wanna get in that guy’s pants.” The ones who do? Are probably gay men. *That’s* the culture that men are brought up with.”
Again, you presume to know that women experience this more than you do. And just because it doesn’t happen to some men doesn’t mean it just doesn’t happen to men. I’m willing to give you that women are probably more often the targets of horniness. I might even be willing to concede that they’re more often considered desirable in themselves, rather then outlets for someone else’s horniness (though I believe the difference is smaller than you make it out to be, and the fact that many men seem perfectly willing to call women sluts and whores strongly indicates that they’re not exactly sleeping with them out of admiration or a sense of how wonderful they are).
But the way you basically say “I never got to feel attractive the way all you women definitely were, and that’s proof of how this is much worse for men” is just disrespectful towards women. Again, just because it didn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen to men, and just because you think it happens to women doesn’t mean women can actually count on experiencing it.
“Hell, look at popular TV shows. Familiy Guy is about a fat arsehole who has a smoking hot wife. According to Jim: compare their relative attractive levels.”
I’m sure how showing that even fat guys can get hot wives, while less hot women are not even considered fit to be on TV, is exactly telling us that women are automatically admired and desired just for being women, while men never get considered attractive unless they’re Sean Connery.
“You talk about how Leonardo DeCaprio is positioned as sexy, to which I can only say, “… huh?””
Why? When I saw The Man in the Iron Mask, girls my age and older where actually hooting the first time he was seen clean, shaved, and out of the mask. Considering that this was 13 years ago, I find it hard to believe people are still surprised that girls can lust over a guy who is (or was) mainly known for being hot.
“You talk about Edward Cullen and the guy who plays him, but I promise his sexiness came from the fact that he was playing Edward, a character who it feels like the vast majority of teenage females fantasized about (and for god knows what reason… he set off my CREEPY detector within the first twenty pages of the first book).”
Edward Cullen himself is a female sexual fantasy about male beauty. He might not be any more real than Helen of Troy, but he’s not any less relevant in telling us about the power male appearance can have over women. It’s also worth noticing that plenty of women have only seen the movies and still find him hot, not to mention that Jacob Black was described less pretty, but the guy who plays him (or rather, his abs) has become a bigger sex symbol. I also saw a old message board where girls were discussing potential actors to play Jacob, and Steven Strait was mentioned repeatedly for his hotness (though too old for the part), despite not having played any big sex object in a movie at the time.
I’ve also seen message boards of girls exchanging hot pictures of guys. In one case, a girl expressed her intention to start listening to a band only after having seen for the first time how hot the lead singer was. I’ve posted images which have immediately been considered hot by other women. It’s really not as uncommon as you think for men to be appreciated just for their looks before women know anything about them.
“So trust me when I say: men feel like they can’t be sexy… just like some women feel like shit because they’re not a size 0.”
Again with the generalisations. I happen to know guys who feel sexy. I also happen to have met guys who didn’t feel sexy unless they were admired for something other than their looks, who didn’t want women to chase them, and who considered it degrading to be thought of as pretty. I happen to have seen guys be considered extremely sexy and lusted over by girls. That you don’t think women lusting over men really counts, because you haven’t personally been the target, because you haven’t heard women talk about it, because you don’t see the sexiness of the men women admire, because you believe the men are considered sexy for a different reason than their physical beauty, does not invalidate that it happens.
You really have no right to conclude that men feel like they can’t be sexy, especially not when you then make the caveat that’s only SOME women who feel like shit because they’re not a size 0. Apart from your contrast between ‘men’ and ‘some women’, it’s also interesting that, even though the number one complaint from women who feel fat (and the number one nasty remark from men) is that they’re ugly and unsexy, you use the expression “feel like shit” instead of giving voice to their feelings of being undesirable. Your complaint about my posts only work if you start off the assumption that you’re right and I’m wrong, and that your claims about universal male experiences are therefore not arrogant or frustrating, and your off-handed remarks about what you judge women to be experiencing are valid and reasonable.
@Danny:
“While it is true that that’s not what you see all over the media there is still the fact that when it comes to male sexuality there is a lot of, “You don’t want to have sex with her? What’s wrong with you?” And that “her” is not always a Megan Fox level woman.”
But that’s not the same as claiming the women herself is hot or desirable. To put it bluntly, she has a cunt (she might even be a cunt for all you care), you can be used.
“Not quite because that range I mention applies to both to those one would want to just have meaningless sex with and those who they find deeply attractive.”
I’m not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that women are not often as deeply in love as men?
“Its only relatively recently becoming a problem. Even the example you pick is one from only within the last decade.”
Funny that you label it a problem while trying to argue that we need more of it. As I’ve already said, this was already happening 13 years ago. Teen and tween girls didn’t go to an action adventure movie about ageing musketeers because of the plot or the fight scenes. They almost certainly didn’t go to experience the amazing acting of Jeremy Irons or Gérard Depardieu. They went because that pretty guy from Titanic and Romeo+Juliet was in it. Even if you claim that Elvis only made girls scream because he was talented, Leonardo was not known for anything but prettiness at that time.
“That might be true considering that after the first Twilight movie he was in a film with Pierce Brosnan (which I can’t even think of the name right now). Oh and before Twilight he was a character in an entry in another major franchise but remained under the radar until Twilight.”
That’s not entirely fair. Before Transformers, Megan Fox was not considered the world’s most beautiful woman either.
@f.:
“@AB, re: your last post, I agree that all of those things are things that exist. It’s not much fun to be ranked as a sex object of varying quality all the time, nor to be told, “eh, you’re good enough for sex, but I’d never bring you around to meet my friends” – I agree.”
It’s not just that. That MRA moderator from the other thread (which I stay away from for the sake of my own sanity) has admitted to being so interested and eager to have sex with women that he has made them give in to him after saying no. By the standards of guys here, he’s giving women compliments and and a reason to feel sexy. But he also calls them cum dumpsters.
And believe me, it is by no means certain that he mysteriously manages to make the women whose “no” he doesn’t respect feel special and desirable, without giving a hint that it also comes natural to him to speak about them as he does with his MRA buddies. It is entirely possible to feel that a man wants to dump a load of semen inside you, while still feeling like he considers you to be some kind of garbage.
“But I don’t know, is any of that actually a rebuttal to the existence of the Myth of Men Not Being Hot? Why can’t the guys who put women through some shit, also be going through their own shit?”
How can people believe that men can’t be hot when there are so many books, movies, and TV shows featuring hot men whom women lust over? What you’re looking for is The Myth of Not All Men Being Hot. It exists for women too. Here’s an episode of a famous British sitcom, featuring a woman getting sexually assaulted as a joke, because men liking women at her age and weight is considered funny and bizarre (staring around 22:30): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9y-HXAx_BY
@ AB
“It is entirely possible to feel that a man wants to dump a load of semen inside you, while still feeling like he considers you to be some kind of garbage.”
A man who feels that his sexuality is a ‘load of garbage’ to be dumped into a dumpster certainly doesn’t have a very positive view of masculine sexuality either.
Typhonblue: or at least he suffer from a whery low self esteem and self hate. Not necessarely projected to all his gender.
Typhon: Ozy’s Law strikes again! XD
@typhonblue:
“A man who feels that his sexuality is a ‘load of garbage’ to be dumped into a dumpster certainly doesn’t have a very positive view of masculine sexuality either.”
May be, but if he feels like he’s on top of the world because he got the better of a bunch of dumb sluts, who am I to argue? Plenty of people get off on humiliating others or being in a position of power, and it’s not like they all feel terrible because of it. I’m more interested in whether I’m supposed to draw confidence in the power and beauty of my sexuality because a guy gets turned on thinking about me as a dumpster.
@typhon, that’s just it, isn’t it. If one sees sexuality as something that’s to be inflicted upon semi-willing objects… yiiiiikes. It’s the male body as a weapon, not something that can be enjoyable to look at or an instrument of mutual joy. There’s so much misogyny and man hatred wrapped up in there that I think we can safely just call such a worldview misanthropic in general.
AB you’ve got a point about how some of this stuff intersects with beauty standards, and all of this is clearly happening in an arena of evolving societal standards which do sometimes normalize straight men as attractive and deserving of straight female desire. but as I’ve said before, I don’t think you are listening to what men are saying about this.
I think localism is also an issue here. Different cultures and subcultures are going to differ in important ways when it comes to how men and women relate to one another sexually. Something for all of us to keep in mind. Personally, I probably relate so much to this particular issue because I am surrounded by gorgeous men who know how to style themselves, but are totally confused and even a little threatened by an overt female gaze.
Funny that you label it a problem while trying to argue that we need more of it.
No that means I should have added the ” ” quotes so as not to say its actually a problem.
But that’s not the same as claiming the women herself is hot or desirable. To put it bluntly, she has a cunt (she might even be a cunt for all you care), you can be used.
Unfortunately some think it is the same and I just led you to that conclusion by buying into myself. I quite used the wrong words on that so I don’t blame you for the response considering what I said. That “What’s wrong with you?” talk on male sexuality (and dating/companionship I might add) comes up on other things besides sex and covers more than just the Megan Foxes.
I’m not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that women are not often as deeply in love as men?
No just pointing out that the mixed messages I mentioned don’t just apply to casual sex partners.
That’s not entirely fair. Before Transformers, Megan Fox was not considered the world’s most beautiful woman either.
Fair enough so its often the role that turns the man/woman into a sexual being.
TB:
A man who feels that his sexuality is a ‘load of garbage’ to be dumped into a dumpster certainly doesn’t have a very positive view of masculine sexuality either.
Yes. Referring to one’s semen as garbage is rather toxic language about oneself. (This is also why I don’t like the way people refer to penises as “junk”.)
@ AB
“May be, but if he feels like he’s on top of the world because he got the better of a bunch of dumb sluts, who am I to argue?”
So you’re taking his PoV at face value here but elsewhere when men say something about their experience you don’t?
What’s the score here? What’s next?
@ AB
“I’m more interested in whether I’m supposed to draw confidence in the power and beauty of my sexuality because a guy gets turned on thinking about me as a dumpster.”
That’s only one opinion from one extremely self-hating guy.
In other places feminists have recognized the hurtfulness in being a black, fat, plain or otherwise sexually invisible woman. How is that different then seeing the hurtfulness in being a sexually invisible gender?
f. says:
“AB you’ve got a point about how some of this stuff intersects with beauty standards, and all of this is clearly happening in an arena of evolving societal standards which do sometimes normalize straight men as attractive and deserving of straight female desire. but as I’ve said before, I don’t think you are listening to what men are saying about this.”
And I don’t think you’re listening to what I say: You cannot talk about how bad a deal men get because of their sex unless you compare it to what women get. You cannot make that comparison without talking about women’s experiences. You and other men on this thread has repeatedly made sweeping generalisations and assumptions about all the unconditional validation women receive, in your case going so far as to suggest all sexual attention is a compliment, even when the receivers are treated like trash and called dumpsters.
The examples in the beginning of the article make it pretty clear that this is about taking something which is also unusual for women (being portrayed in a movie as desired despite being far from the mainstream ideal of beauty), and blaming it on misandry that it doesn’t happen more to men. The first two things that came to mind as female equivalents were Calendar Girls and the scenes from Keeping Up Appearances where the major lusts after the stout and elderly Hyacinth Bucket. I have not seen many non-comedic instances where women are showed to get that kind of validation if they aren’t conventionally attractive.
“I think localism is also an issue here. Different cultures and subcultures are going to differ in important ways when it comes to how men and women relate to one another sexually. Something for all of us to keep in mind. Personally, I probably relate so much to this particular issue because I am surrounded by gorgeous men who know how to style themselves, but are totally confused and even a little threatened by an overt female gaze.”
Actually, the part where women are called cum dumpsters is mostly American. Since I keep being told by American men that American women are so validated and complimented by the male attention they get despite being all fat ugly and and useless and thinking too much of themselves, while the women are telling me they’re harassed on the street, slut-shamed, and being compared to trash. Oh, and “A key that can open any lock is a master key, a lock that be opened by any key is a shitty lock”. So they’re shitty too.
AB: I can’t pretend to know much about what types of things teenage girls lust after.
However, I will say this: As a person who has listened to a lot of other men speak on this issue, and as a man who has experienced this myself: Many men have a hard time believing that their girlfriends or other women desire them in the same way that men desire women.
This has less to do with reality but more to do with men’s perceptions and how those perceptions are shaped both by how women communicate with their partners, and how society shapes men’s perception of the world.
Also, the idea that men are just looking for a cum dumpster is a deeply sexist thought. It sets up heterosexual sex as degrading, men’s sexuality as disgusting, and women as a mere recepticle to be used up.
I don’t doubt that some men might buy into this mode of thought, but ultimately, I think these men are as pitiable as they are wrong. What they’ve bought into is a story of misandry and misogny – with themselves cast in the leading role.
AB: At risk of this devolving into a match of “No. You!” – I don’t believe that you are fully listening either.
What people on this thread are saying isn’t “Men have it bad, women have it great” – they’re merely highlighting a perception that many men have which forms the foundation of a degrading and sexist model of relationships between men and women. The ways in which people have highlighted this has showcased how it harms men, but I believe everyone agrees that it profoundly harms women as well.
So why the argument?
@ AB
” being compared to trash.”
Being called a ‘cum dumpster’ isn’t being compared to trash, it’s being compared to something that holds trash. The trash being men’s sexuality.
Guys who say stuff like this haven’t thought it through. They’re like a minority who insults white people by calling them ‘white trash.’
AB, you need to check yourself before you wreck yourself.
You and other men on this thread has repeatedly made sweeping generalisations and assumptions about all the unconditional validation women receive, in your case going so far as to suggest all sexual attention is a compliment, even when the receivers are treated like trash and called dumpsters.
First off, AB. I am a bonafide lady, tittayz and all, so lay off your assumptions and inappropriate gendering.
Also, get your words out of my mouth. Find the place where I suggested all sexual attention is a compliment. Please.
What on earth is going on when we agree on so much and you respond by saying I am a dude who supports sexual harassment? I rest my case, you aren’t listening and this is not a conversation, it’s a monologue on your part.
@ Darque
“Also, the idea that men are just looking for a cum dumpster is a deeply sexist thought. It sets up heterosexual sex as degrading, men’s sexuality as disgusting, and women as a mere recepticle to be used up.”
I think it reflects a psychic wounding. We’re probably evolved to want to feel desirable to our sexual partners, when men are taught they can’t possibly be desired, a part of them is emasculated. And they deal with it by projecting outward this idea of men’s sexuality being filth.
‘Well, if I’m filth then you’re a filth-container!’
Being a woman in a sexist society sucks. Being a man in a sexist society sucks. There is no point arguing in which kind of suck sucks more; the point is to end the suck. Stop playing the Oppression Olympics.
And “women are cum dumpsters” is degrading to everyone..
@Typhon:
Interesting thought. We could probably play the same game with a lot of other sexist tropes:
“Girls only like asshole guys”
Guys are assholes Women associate with assholes.
Not to mention some common tropes about marriage, that when a man marries he ends up having to do everything that his wife tells him.
“Women usually wear the ‘pants’ in a relationship”
Women are bossy Their men are spineless wimps,
To believe in one part of the trope is to believe in the other part. And that is why, when a person is presented with a profoundly negative view of one part of their world, it tends to poison the other parts.
@typhonblue:
“So you’re taking his PoV at face value here but elsewhere when men say something about their experience you don’t?”
I take the men here at face value when they say they don’t feel desired. I take his words at face value when he expresses a fondness for sex and feeling of getting the better of the women he has sex with.
But I don’t take the word of men here at face value when they claim to speak for all men, and I don’t take their claims about women’s experiences, feelings, and desires at face value, because with all their talk about how important it is to listen to only men (and only men present here) when talking about men’s experiences, it would be hypocritical by their own standards to pretend they were qualified to talk about women.
“That’s only one opinion from one extremely self-hating guy.”
How about every guy who has ever used a slur referring to dirtiness or sexual promiscuity about women? Every guy who has ever treated the act of having sex with a woman as a form of victory over her? Every guy who has ever made sexual comments about a woman knowing she didn’t like it? And how on earth do you know he hates himself? What was it about not taking men’s POV at face value?
“In other places feminists have recognized the hurtfulness in being a black, fat, plain or otherwise sexually invisible woman. How is that different then seeing the hurtfulness in being a sexually invisible gender?”
I don’t recognise the pain of being sexually invisible as being equal to the pain of just being invisible. I usually describe it as the difference between seeing people as sex objects first, people second, and seeing them as sex objects first, nothing second. I have experienced guys who practically ignored girls they were not sexually interested in, despite having no problem socialising non-sexually with other guys.
I’ve even gone so far (in my teens) as to deliberately play up my sex appeal in the hope of getting a guy to talk to me, and then slowly easing away from the sexual stuff as we started talking more and more, until he’d came to regard me as a friend who was funny and interesting to be around in my own right, because I knew he would be unlikely to consider a friendship with a girl unless he was sexually attracted.
I’m generally much more focussed on the social ostracism aspect of it than anything else. My goal is not that men should find fat women sexy, my goal is that fat people should not be considered disgusting and less worthy of respect because of their weight. I’m not against men not finding me attractive, I’m against indications that I’m worthless as a human being unless men want to fuck me. If people are free to love as they want, and don’t condemn others for the way they look, sexual diversity will most likely follow, but from personal experience, shaming people for not feeling physically attracted to someone is not the way to go about it.
AB:
And I don’t think you’re listening to what I say: You cannot talk about how bad a deal men get because of their sex unless you compare it to what women get. You cannot make that comparison without talking about women’s experiences.
Who says that comparison must be made? I’ll agree that it can’t be talked about in a manner that dismisses or erases women’s experiences but considering how many other feminists spaces manage to talk about women’s experiences in relation to this topic without bringing up men’s experiences (and bear in mind the irony/joke behind the name of this site) why is it so wrong to do it here in a space where such talk is welcome?
I don’t recognise the pain of being sexually invisible as being equal to the pain of just being invisible.
Doesn’t have to be equal. Just pointing out that it happens. As someone who has been rendered invisible for reasons other then (and in addition to) sexually let me say that yes it does hurt. Hurts alot. I’m not trying to saying its the most painful for myself or anyone else but it does. And that’s what matters and what needs to be addressed.
And quick show of hands who here has ever heard anyone actually call a woman a cum dumpster? (I’m not saying it never happens but I’ve only heard it a few times in my life myself, and some of those times were actually by women about women).
Ehh, Danny, the “cum dumpster” motif is pretty ubiquitous in mainstream porn imo. It’s out there all right, and is indicative of the whole mentality AB describes. With all the implications typhon has mentioned, too.
Oh, and the fact that women are sometimes misogynists is… not exactly surprising. Sadly.
Darque: Yep. It’s called Ozy’s Law. 🙂 https://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2011/09/05/ozys-law/
Oh I have no doubt about the mofit of it (as part of the larger disregard of women as just sex toys with a built in life support system) existing. I was asking specifically about the use of the exact term cum dumpster. Again not trying to say its never used just wondering how often other people hear it.
I’ve never heard it used by someone in person, but I agree with f that it is a pretty strong motif that runs throughout pornography, and to a lesser extent, the wider culture.
@Darque:
“AB: At risk of this devolving into a match of “No. You!” – I don’t believe that you are fully listening either.
What people on this thread are saying isn’t “Men have it bad, women have it great” – they’re merely highlighting a perception that many men have which forms the foundation of a degrading and sexist model of relationships between men and women. The ways in which people have highlighted this has showcased how it harms men, but I believe everyone agrees that it profoundly harms women as well.
So why the argument?”
The argument is that things are being made gendered that are not. The examples in the OP are not gendered. The guy in American Pie is not considered funny because he’s a guy, he’s considered funny because he’s not very conventionally attractive compared to the girl he’s with. I can show similar scenes where the joke is that women normally considered sexually undesirable are put in a sexual position (though because of the general lack of women who’re not conventionally attractive in the media, it will be rarer).
In The Full Monty, the touching and positive message isn’t that men can be sexy, it is that ordinary men can be sexy. It was already established from the beginning of that movie that women can find men so sexy they’re willing to pay for them to take their clothes off. There was never any myth that men can’t be sexy, the Chippendales had already been there to dispel it.
And honestly, I’ve spent so much of my youth being made to feel guilty over being attracted the guys I was attracted to and not to others, and listening to guys in places like here talk about ‘female hypergamy’ (the phenomenon of women not being completely sexually indifferent towards men – thus enabling men to more fairly divide the communal pussy – but instead being drawn more to certain types of men than others. Aka: Women have preferences! That’s so unfair!), that I’ve just about had it with people linking it to some kind of oppression or hate that common looking dorky/middle-aged men are portrayed as being attractive roughly as often as their female counterparts are.
Perhaps if we stopped seeing (attractive) female attention as a reward to be given to men, and stopped expecting women to adjust their sexuality according to what seemed most fair and equal to men, but gave them a little more time to actually discover that they had a sexuality in the first place, they would become more capable of feeling and showing authentic sexual desire. And perhaps we should also acknowledge that there can also be something appealing about the less physical way men are more typically found sexy.
@Danny:
“Who says that comparison must be made?”
If you want to call something gendered, you must explain why it is. My point is that I also see conventionally unattractive women as the butt of a joke. In fact, considering the small amount of conventionally unattractive women I see on TV to begin with, I suspect a larger % of them are actually there as a joke than their male counterparts.
There’s a big difference between not addressing the problem of a certain sex, and addressing a problem as if it was specific to only one sex. Feminists have been blamed plenty of times on this blog for acting as if rape was a female issue. You were not ready there to defend their right to discuss the problems of whatever gender they choose, so I figure you agreed with the reason for the criticism.
“I’ll agree that it can’t be talked about in a manner that dismisses or erases women’s experiences but considering how many other feminists spaces manage to talk about women’s experiences in relation to this topic without bringing up men’s experiences (and bear in mind the irony/joke behind the name of this site) why is it so wrong to do it here in a space where such talk is welcome?”
Feminists blogs who’re even remotely open are usually filled with people complaining about feminism and accusing feminists of creating all of the world’s problems. Hardly welcoming. There are also plenty of places where such talk about men is welcome, including in a lot of mainstream culture and all over the internet (seriously, every time I’ve seen the topic of rape being brought up, discussions of false accusations have taken up at least half the discussion, unless the topic was male victims. And the day I see the issue of equal pay getting taken as seriously, as fast, and on as flimsy a pretence as paternal custody, I’ll count women lucky).
You yourself have spent years on feminist blogs, even after you admitted you didn’t like feminism at all, and most of your post have had criticism of feminism as one of their major themes. Don’t make a hypocrite out of yourself by complaining when one of the many, many men’s blogs on the web is visited by someone who doesn’t always agree.
@ AB
“But I don’t take the word of men here at face value when they claim to speak for all men.”
Alright. But wait:
“because I knew [men in general] would be unlikely to consider a friendship with a girl unless [they were] sexually attracted.”
So you don’t take the word of men here at face value when they claim to speak for all men but you can speak for all men?
“How about every guy who has ever used a slur referring to dirtiness or sexual promiscuity about women?”
Yep. Every man who’s ever slut shamed is likely self-hating. You can only see male sexuality as dirtying or damaging if you actually have a very low opinion of male sexuality.
“Every guy who has ever treated the act of having sex with a woman as a form of victory over her?”
Must, by default, consider male sexuality a weapon. Which, since the penis is the least weapon-like part of the human body (if it wasn’t we’d have peenjitsu–secret penis technique of instant death HUWAAAH!) means that the penis is a metaphorical weapon or a social one.
Which is a pretty damn ugly construct.
“Every guy who has ever made sexual comments about a woman knowing she didn’t like it? And how on earth do you know he hates himself? What was it about not taking men’s POV at face value?”
You’re right. I don’t know.
But I can infer. For example if a large woman said ‘my sexuality is so gross it damages people’ I could infer that she is likely self-hating.
@ AB
So you’ve laid out your game plan.
“Don’t make a hypocrite out of yourself by complaining when one of the many, many men’s blogs on the web is visited by someone who doesn’t always agree.”
You’re not interested in the topic of the blog, you’re interested in derailing the topic.
AB:You yourself have spent years on feminist blogs, even after you admitted you didn’t like feminism at all, and most of your post have had criticism of feminism as one of their major themes. Don’t make a hypocrite out of yourself by complaining when one of the many, many men’s blogs on the web is visited by someone who doesn’t always agree.
I don’t recall saying I didn’t like feminism at all. I can imagine you getting that impression but I’ve said before that while I acknowledge the good work that’s come from feminism its far from perfect. Oh I was close the point of declaring that I didn’t like feminism as all but I’m fighting that urge off. And you’re a part of why I’m succeeding in that.
@AB
Then we’re going to have to disagree on whether or not the problem is gendered. I think that gender as a whole has a LOT to do with the concept of who is viewed as sexually attractive, and for what reasons. Providing one counterexample to the many examples in which men have been de-sexualized, or whose worth to women has been consistently implicated as not being sexual does not disprove the existence of this trope in our culture. It simply provides a counterexample.
Also, I’m starting to get tired of the strawmen. Maybe you’re talking about other blogs, but saying that “guys in places like here” are out to “divide the communal pussy” is highly insulting.
Finally, you said :
“And perhaps we should also acknowledge that there can also be something appealing about the less physical way men are more typically found sexy.”
Which, I also disagree with. Because, as a man, I have a different perspective.
There can be something appealing about being found sexy for non physical ways, but it starts to smart a little bit when you think that women are only with you because you’re really good at doing X, or because you have a lot of money, or because of some other reason.
It starts to make you think stupid, sexist things like
“women just aren’t in to men’s appearances”
or stuff like
“women just want to be with me because I can do X, or because I have a lot of money. Not because of who I am or what I look like.”
I’ll tell you what: I just want to be treated the same as you, and I want you to be treated the same as me. I want us both to be treated with respect in our relationships, and for our partners/ potential partners to comment both on our appearances and sexuality, as well as our personality, and who we are as a whole/what we do. For people to treat us any less, I think is wrong.
THAT is the point of this thread.
The Full Monty is not a happy movie about sexuality. When I saw it, it seemed very depressing, though with some extremely funny bits. I thought it was about the loss of male power. Then I heard a radio interview with the director or possibly the writer, and found I’d gotten it half right– it was actually intended to be about the transfer of power from men to women.
I’ll grant that authorial intent and audience reception is a complicated thing, and the movie wasn’t simply grim about stripping, but I do think it didn’t let go of the idea that it was humiliating.
If it had been an American movie, it would have been about the guys starting a lucrative enjoyable career as stripping troupe. The actual movie was about them doing something emotionally difficult for a little money. Once.
Darque: …Many men have a hard time believing that their girlfriends or other women desire them in the same way that men desire women.
This has less to do with reality but more to do with men’s perceptions and how those perceptions are shaped both by how women communicate with their partners, and how society shapes men’s perception of the world.
With all due respect, I can’t make any sense out of that second quoted sentence past the word “reality”; it sounds like generic gibberish to me. I may be low of brow, but it seems to me that the phenomenon in the first quoted sentence is has everything to do with reality, so I think you’re really off the beam here.
The plain reality is, that for the main run of men in the US — not players, PUA’s or super-hotties, we’re talking about the wide swath of guys in the middle — getting a sex partner is a low-percentage business. On average he’ll have to ask/proposition/seduce at least X girls in order to get his next score, where X is much larger than 1; numbers from 20 to 100 are typically described. (Remember we’re talking about serious approaches here, not yells from the street.)
This is not necessarily an evil situation prima facie. But it does set up a gross asymmetry that can’t be ignored. If a guy has to proposition 99 girls before one will say yes, but those corresponding girls get 99 offers for every one they accept, then it’s undeniable that the two types are having very different experiences. So, yes, “she doesn’t desire him in the same way he desires her” is manifestly true, rooted directly in reality.
When the bilateral connection is made, then in her eyes he’s the rare 1 in 100 who had the right combination of whatever she was looking for at that moment; in his eyes she’s the rare 1 in 100 who can appreciate/desire him when the vast majority of women didn’t. Do you see the difference? If you’re being turned down 99% of the time, then you’re not hot, period. It’s not a myth, or some doofy consequence of “society and perceptions”, it’s just plain reality for a large majority of men; and I think using a term like “myth” is really insensitive and insulting to men’s lived experiences.
So sayeth the lowbrow corner, amen.
@AB et al
FWIW, I agree with most of what everyone’s said in this argument, and it seems to me the area of disagreement is not really so big.
I have to agree heartily with one thing AB just said: in my personal experience, I have met and spoken with quite a few generally progressive men who seem to view female sexuality as something that should be apportioned to men on merit. It is not altogether uncommon for these men to be frustrated, bitter even, about women they like being attracted to guys who the progressive guys perceive as less worthy as them, as though it’s not legitimate for us to be physically/sexually attracted to men on anything more superficial than merit or niceness. That’s a pretty crappy attitude, IMO. I think it’s related to the gendered expectation that women be nicer and purer than men, even in their sexuality – totally unfair expectation.
I also think that guys can have trouble grasping just how incredibly, incredibly difficult women have it with regard to standards of physical attractiveness. It’s true we are generally more likely to be the targets of sexual attention, even when we are not Megan Fox-hot (and I don’t myself think this attention is very often as hateful – in the cum dumpster vein – as you suggest, AB), but nonetheless, not measuring up to beauty standards exacts on many of us an extremely painful psychic toll. Anyone talking as though women have it easy in terms of attracting positive (non-hateful) sexual attention needs to stop and think about how difficult women have it in terms of beauty standards, and *especially* needs to remember that women who are of below-average attractiveness are not constantly showered with positive sexual attention – not even close.
But AB, I am not at all convinced by your argument that this post perceives something gendered about men less often being seen as objects of desire. Yes, there are examples in popular culture of men being desired, but I don’t think it’s as common as you suggest. And from my own extensive experience as an enthusiastic appreciator of the male body, I’ve found that many, many of the men I’ve slept with are not at all used to being enthusiastically, openly admired physically/sexually. I don’t think that it’s anywhere near as unusual for the average female than the average male.
Just my perception/experience…
@uncalledfor
I think there’s a lot of truth in what you say and regardless of what the precise apportionment of pain and distress is between the genders, I have real empathy for men who feel undesired.
But you’re also presenting it as though men approach each woman at a roughly equal rate. Not so. The men in the middle are approaching, in the main, more conventionally attractive women, and so these individual women get a disproportional amount of approaches. That’s only one female experience, and one that many, many women don’t have. Conventionally unattractive women are not, as a rule, choosing from a number of men propositioning them. They are more likely to get male attention very rarely, if at all. I’m sure they feel just as unattractive as the swathe of men in the middle, if not more so due to the added cultural emphasis on beauty as the main measure of female worth.
I think it’s important in discussions of sex/dating/relationship dynamics to remember that by definition, 50% of women are of below average attractiveness, their experiences *matter*, and they do not match the common narrative.
@uncalled for
My post was based off of the (optimistic) assumption that women desire men just as much as men desire women. I concede that the world could be less equal, or less optimal than I believe it to be.
However, I would ask that you don’t pull out the “lived experiences” card in this situation until you have any clue what my experiences are in this situation. That IS insulting.
Now that we’ve had a long discussion of who has it worse, who might have it worse, whether or not anyone has it worse, if we should even frame the discussion in terms of having it worse… I think it’s time for something different.
Let’s talk about how to deconstruct the ‘cum dumpster’ meme.
The idea behind it is that a woman is a receptacle for garbage, the garbage being male sexuality. How would we go about getting rid of it?
Well we could start by not assuming that because a man would enjoy having sex with a woman doesn’t mean he only sees her as an object, and secondly stop acting like cum is a disgusting weapon.
AB,
you say –
“I’m not against men not finding me attractive, I’m against indications that I’m worthless as a human being unless men want to fuck me.
I suppose that is pretty close to the problem I mentioned in the quote cited by Noah in the original post, except that I referred to men! How many of the problems discussed on gender-blogs start with the male feeling of *not being wanted*, ie feeling worthless, *because* they don’t get the feeling someone *wants* to fuck them?
Now you can say men went on to build an elaborate system to ensure they aren’t considered worthless even in the absence of being sexually wanted (ie needed) and that said option is less available for women (which I’d say is not the case, but you could make that argument).
But it would still be basically the point I made that Noah quoted. You’re basically restating my point here.
I loved that quote about cumdumpster so much that I posted it on my facebook… it’s the PERFECT example of what I’m talking about when I say that male sexuality is heavily degraded. More examples are when you say “lawll ur mom liked me last night.” As in, your mom is a lesser person because she had sex with this guy, and enjoyed it? And that’s supposed to be an insult to my mom?
Actually the vast majority of rape jokes can be summarized as “lol women are degraded whenever they have penises inside them.” Obviously this is degrading to women, but it’s *also* degrading to men. It’s just more hidden with men than it is with women.
Hell, when my (possibly ex) girlfriend said that she didn’t find penises attractive, I can promise you that the outcry on one forum (populated by feminists) to my concern about this was “don’t worry, NO WOMEN find penises attractive.” And my response was, “well, yeah, I guess they do kind of suck.” In fact, several women posted to say that they routinely have to suppress giggles because of how silly and stupid penises look.
Men as unsexy isn’t some obvious trope that can be seen by looking at Beer commercials (a la “women are sex objects”), but men as unsexy IS pervailant if just a little harder to see. A lot of it is heavily related to things that feminists should care about:
Men are the default audience, right? And since “all” men are heterosexual, “all” men find other men revolting. So media portrays men as revolting. Solution? Aim more media at women. Suddenly we’ve both legitimized females as an audience and men as possible sex objects.
In fact, if men are unsexy and male sexuality is degrading (that is, a woman is a lesser creature for having a penis inside her) this leads *directly* into more than just slut shaming. A wife is less than her husband because she’s had a penis in her. A little girl is worth less than a little boy because some day she’ll have a penis inside her. In turn this makes men feel rather… angry and upset. They want to have sex but any sex they have is degrading, and as soon as they have sex they can’t care about their partners because they just made their partners worse, which means that all sex is negative, which means who cares about consent, and suddenly rape culture.
AB, I think your first mistake here is you’re pushing oppression olympics.
But I think your SECOND mistake is you’re not seeing how *fixing this issue* can lead to fixing issues for women. By making consensual sex beautiful (which it currently is not portrayed as) you will find that the instances of rape will drop DRAMATICALLY, I predict. By giving men the ability to become sex objects, and in fact by encouraging more overt “female gaze” not only will you improve men’s sexual self-esteem (which again will, in my opinion, diminish rape culture and improve the status of anyone who finds men attractive… bi/straight women and bi/gay men as some examples) but men will also gain more empathy for women and for what sort of behavior is or isn’t ok when someone hot is walking down the street.
Men’s sexuality and whether or not men can be sexy is a huge issue for women… or rather should be. Both women who like to have sex with men and women who don’t.
More examples are when you say “lawll ur mom liked me last night.” As in, your mom is a lesser person because she had sex with this guy, and enjoyed it? And that’s supposed to be an insult to my mom?
And you don’t see women saying this much. Well except communitychannel, who manages to do so and mock Katy Perry at the same time with a I F#cked Your Mum, a parody of I Kissed A Girl.
Oh youtube links automatically embed. I did not know that, sorry.
@typhonblue:
“Alright. But wait:
“because I knew [men in general] would be unlikely to consider a friendship with a girl unless [they were] sexually attracted.”
So you don’t take the word of men here at face value when they claim to speak for all men but you can speak for all men?”
I didn’t say that, you put that into my sentence. How am I to answer your accusations when you replace words such as “he” with “men in general” and then use your own choice of words to argue that I’m generalising? I would not be explaining myself, I would be explaining something you invented, and you’re much better qualified to explain what you mean by it than I am. Also, I don’t claim speak for men, but I reserve the right speak for my own experiences with men without being met with what is essentially “That’s not what I/all the men I claim to speak for feel inside, therefore your experiences as a woman must be wrong”.
“You’re right. I don’t know.
But I can infer. For example if a large woman said ‘my sexuality is so gross it damages people’ I could infer that she is likely self-hating.”
Now you’re making up stuff again. When people say “My sexuality is gross” you don’t have to infer, it’s pretty safe to assume they’re being honest and saying what they mean. But when the point is instead “All those people I sexually abused were worthless and deserved it”, you have to do quite a bit of psychoanalysis to come to the point “I hate myself”. Also, if this is true, how does it fit with the way you treat women and feminism? You have never given even a sliver of that sympathy and understanding to anyone you’ve accused of misandry.
@Darque:
“Then we’re going to have to disagree on whether or not the problem is gendered. I think that gender as a whole has a LOT to do with the concept of who is viewed as sexually attractive, and for what reasons. Providing one counterexample to the many examples in which men have been de-sexualized, or whose worth to women has been consistently implicated as not being sexual does not disprove the existence of this trope in our culture. It simply provides a counterexample.”
Since most women who’re not considered sexually attractive are also not considered fit to be on TV, it’s pretty hard for me to give you a host of counter-examples of women who’re de-sexualised, because those women will not be shown in the first place. But I will say that expecting your sex to be constantly sexualised is an unreasonable demand. Men are sexualised. They are also shown in several capacities which has nothing to do with appeal. The presence of one does not invalidate the other.
“Also, I’m starting to get tired of the strawmen. Maybe you’re talking about other blogs, but saying that “guys in places like here” are out to “divide the communal pussy” is highly insulting.”
Guys here have talked about female hypergamy and treated it as if it was an actual phenomenon. None of them have ever given an explanation of why ‘hypergamy’ is any different than what’s called ‘preferences’ when men engage in it.
“Which, I also disagree with. Because, as a man, I have a different perspective.
There can be something appealing about being found sexy for non physical ways, but it starts to smart a little bit when you think that women are only with you because you’re really good at doing X, or because you have a lot of money, or because of some other reason.”
How is that any different than being judged on your appearance? Do you really think “he’s only with me because I’m skinny” or worse “he’s only with me because I look/am young” is that much better? If a rich man started making less money, he would lose a lot of his admirers. It Taylor Lautner became fat, he would no longer have a career as a sex object.
Don’t you think it would be wonderful to be seen as sexy for something you’re actually good at and/or like doing? Something you know wont start disappearing when you turn 25? Don’t you think it can be easier and more validating to be considered sexy for something you naturally are, than to feel like you constantly have to change yourself just to be good enough?
You want to deny that there can be something appealing about being found sexy in a less physical way. As a woman, let me tell you that if you can’t find validation in being thought sexy for anything but your body, you’re probably not going to be able to find validation in being thought sexy for your body either (it’s OK, lots of women aren’t either). Just because it’s the kind of sexual evaluation which women are subjected to more than men does not mean it’s some mythical path towards feeling truly wanted. “She’s only with me because I’m good at doing X” does not magically become less problematic when transformed into “He’s only with me because I look like X”.
I have tried both (and I know for a fact that your disagreement that the less physical way of being found sexy can be appealing is untrue), and I can tell you, as a woman, that NOT being considered sexy for all the many things you’re good at and want recognition for, and having no choice but to start develop a part of you which you have never cared much about or thought representative of who you are as a person, just to be considered worthy of attention, ends up smarting more than just a little. The guys I’ve met who’ve been actually interested in me, who’ve complimented me on my D&D optimising skills, my singing voice, my intelligence, etc., have felt far more validating than the ones who’ve just checked me out and appeared to categorise me in some one-sided hierarchy of hotness.
“It starts to make you think stupid, sexist things like
“women just aren’t in to men’s appearances”
or stuff like
“women just want to be with me because I can do X, or because I have a lot of money. Not because of who I am or what I look like.””
And I happen to know that many of the guys who’ve wanted to be with me did not want it because of who I am. Quite the contrary, at least “because I’m good at doing X” leaves the option open for a lot of Xs, increasing the chance that something which you consider a core part of your self-concept (being funny, being smart, being strong, being powerful, being rich, being artistic) will be the X this person likes. My ability to make money is not inherently less a part of me than my ability to stay on a diet.
@Sam:
“I suppose that is pretty close to the problem I mentioned in the quote cited by Noah in the original post, except that I referred to men! How many of the problems discussed on gender-blogs start with the male feeling of *not being wanted*, ie feeling worthless, *because* they don’t get the feeling someone *wants* to fuck them?
Now you can say men went on to build an elaborate system to ensure they aren’t considered worthless even in the absence of being sexually wanted (ie needed) and that said option is less available for women (which I’d say is not the case, but you could make that argument).
But it would still be basically the point I made that Noah quoted. You’re basically restating my point here.”
We’re dealing with a conflict of philosophy here. I don’t believe that human feelings of worth are derived solely from sexual worth. In order to survive, humans rely on the process of reciprocal altruism, which means that even in framework of evolutionary psychology, feelings of belonging, acceptance, and status not related to sexual acceptance are crucial and would have developed early and shown up consistently throughout human history. Which they have.
Making such feelings dependant on sexual worth is a cultural process, not the other way around. It’s the difference between seeing it as starting with only a sexual value, and then try to make it dependant on a non-sexual value, and seeing it as starting with a non-sexual value, and trying to make sexual value depend on it. Imo, no one has the right to deny others one just because they do not have the other, but no one is justified in expecting to get one on account on the other. Or in other words, you should not shame people for feeling sexually attracted to those who are not ‘worthy’ of it, but neither should you demand sex from others on account of perceived worthiness.
What I’m thinking of when I make the argument that one’s sexual worth should not determine one’s value in other areas, are things like the comments I have seen about Hilary Clinton’s inadequate appearance when she ran for president of the USA. It is in no way related to ms. Clinton’s right to feel sexually valued, or the duty of the haters give her sexual validation. They can find the thought of having sex with her perfectly disgusting for all I care, but if their criticism of her as a politician is dependant on that, they need to shut up. Ms. Clinton does not have the right to receive praise for her looks or sexual offers from men, but she does have the right to not be treated as if she entered a beauty pageant when she’s running for office.
I really don’t understand Katy Perry (just as an aside): she doesn’t have all that much talent (yaaaay autotuuuune), her songs vary from “really stupid” (I Kissed A Girl) to “ragingly offensive” (Teenage Dream and that other one where she says she wants to be a victim), and she’s not even all that pretty. I can’t figure out what makes her popular… because she misses on all three traditional merits of stardom.
@AB
It doesn’t have to be one thing or another. If I was with someone who only was in a relationship with me because of something I did, and 0 sexual attraction, I would dump them because that is what we call a friend and not a sexual relationship. Maybe I’m crazy, but I think a sexual partner should be with you for the attraction that they feel, AND for who you are.
I’m sorry that women get treated that way, and that you have been treated that way, but I recall having said that in each previous post.
I also recall saying that the problem of women’s oversexualisation is related to the problem of men’s undersexualisation. Again, this is the point I keep trying to make that you don’t seem willing to engage with.
If you disagree, fine. But don’t pretend you know more about me or others on this. We have different opinions and that’s it. It would be more honorable to disagree and walk away, or try to engage and think on the topic than to feel the need to offer a rebuttal for the experiences of every man or woman that posts here.
You said: “and I know for a fact that your disagreement that the less physical way of being found sexy can be appealing is untrue”
I will give you credit for not writing anything condescending until now. That though? Extremely condescending.
Let me tell you this: You know nothing about what dating is like for men, and I don’t think you care to know. I honestly don’t think it’s worth my time engaging with you anymore on this issue. So I’m going to play nice, and talk with other people here instead.
@ AB
This is the full quote AB:
“I’ve even gone so far (in my teens) as to deliberately play up my sex appeal in the hope of getting a guy to talk to me, and then slowly easing away from the sexual stuff as we started talking more and more, until he’d came to regard me as a friend who was funny and interesting to be around in my own right, because I knew he would be unlikely to consider a friendship with a girl unless he was sexually attracted.”
You are talking about men in general. You are saying that men, in general, are not interested in a girl unless they are sexually attracted.
“Also, I don’t claim speak for men, but I reserve the right speak for my own experiences with men without being met with what is essentially “That’s not what I/all the men I claim to speak for feel inside, therefore your experiences as a woman must be wrong”.”
You are not speaking about your own experiences; you are conjecturing on the motives of men. Namely that they are not interested in a girl unless they are sexually attracted.
” Also, if this is true, how does it fit with the way you treat women and feminism? You have never given even a sliver of that sympathy and understanding to anyone you’ve accused of misandry.”
Where the hell did this come from?
@ AB
“But I can infer. For example if a large woman said ‘my sexuality is so gross it damages people’ I could infer that she is likely self-hating.””
Now you’re making up stuff again.
Not really. ‘Cum dumpster’ = men’s sexuality is garbage. I used gross instead of garbage but the sentence works as well with garbage.
‘My sexuality is garbage therefore it damages people.’
“But when the point is instead “All those people I sexually abused were worthless and deserved it”, you have to do quite a bit of psychoanalysis to come to the point “I hate myself”.”
What was said was that a woman was a ‘cum dumpster’. Being used as a cum dumpster was what made them ‘worthless’. Being in intimate proximity with men’s sexuality is what made a woman worthless. Being in intimate proximity with men’s sexuality turned a woman into something suitable only for holding garbage because that’s what men’s sexuality is, garbage.
A glass of wine is a desirable thing but as soon as you throw a cigarette butt in there, it becomes a garbage container. Does that mean we think glasses of wine are worthless?
Incidentally, you’re adding in all this ‘sexually abused’ stuff. Sex with a man does not equal sexual abuse.
After reading the whole back and forth (whew!), I’ve come to the conclusion that the problem of most men not feeling sexually attractive is not at all a gendered thing, but the EXACT SAME THING THAT MOST WOMEN FEEL. All the examples cited in pop culture only underline how women are MADE to feel unattractive because the standard of female attractiveness is set so ridiculously high. And as others have mentioned, while many women get sexually harassed (unwelcome & disrespectful attention), that does not in any way make them feel attractive. And the kind of attention that does make someone feel attractive (respectful attention) mainly happens only to certain people (the few who are conventionally attractive) – and this is true of BOTH men and women. The majority of BOTH genders feel unattractive. So how is this a gendered issue?
I do believe this is a major societal problem, that affects the majority of people in modern society. But I don’t think its caused by gendered memes – instead I think its caused by something that has nothing to do with gender: the unrealistic standard of beauty that is perpetuated by Hollywood and the fashion-beauty complex, which uses “attractive” people (according to a completely unrealistic standard) to sell things. In Hollywood’s case, attractive people are used to sell media (box office sales), and in the case of the beauty industry, its making people feel unattractive (compared to the standard) in order to convince them to buy xyz product.
I think this has translated to personal experiences of people not treating us as attractive (unless we are a member of the conventionally-attractive minority) because like it or not, consciously or not, people are heavily influenced by the wider culture (i.e. Hollywood & advertising), including what we find attractive. Also, a more hidden aspect of enculturation is the way people are taught to relate to others of the opposite gender in general. The gender division most people are taught to conform to from a very young age tend to make people relate to the opposite gender as love interests only, rather than friends (as they do those of the same gender), and as such the attention given members of the opposite gender is determined by how attractive they find the person – with the result that the majority are often ignored as “sexually invisible”.
But I think that the way people are actually treated by others plays less of a role in why they feel unattractive, than people’s own perceptions of themselves. Again this comes back to the influence of pop culture and capitalism (advertising). We are made to feel unattractive, because that way we can be motivated to consume (we won’t buy something we don’t feel that we need), and that way the corporations can make money off us.
Ultimately, I think the root cause of every social phenomenon can be traced to the same source – money. More particularly, who controls it, and how they get more of it.
Oh my god.
Can we make a rule, people? Is that a thing we can do?
Everyone leaves their Cartesian dualism at the door. Anyone caught in violation will be ejected from the premises.
I can’t even count the number of times the mind-body dichotomy has caused people to talk past each other on this thread alone.
Jessica: I’ve come to the conclusion that the problem of most men not feeling sexually attractive is not at all a gendered thing, but the EXACT SAME THING THAT MOST WOMEN FEEL. All the examples cited in pop culture only underline how women are MADE to feel unattractive because the standard of female attractiveness is set so ridiculously high.
Pardon me, but WTF? Just from reading this thread, as well as anywhere else in the world, we’re looking at two types of experience:
1. Typical women feel unattractive because they believe they can’t measure up to the beauty standards presented to them in the media (just as you say here).
2. Typical men feel unattractive because the vast majority of their approaches and advances to women are rejected.
Before, before, *before* breaking out into any arguments about whose experience is worse or less bad or more important or less justified, etc. etc., can’t we just first agree that these are two different kinds of experience? Seems rather blatantly, inescapably obvious to me, and if it’s not the same to you then I really don’t know what to say next.
I think the difference is this and it sort of ties into something I said on the Bouquet thread.
A man is expected to be able to get all the sexual pleasure he needs from a woman’s body. A woman is not expected to be able to get all the sexual pleasure she needs from a man’s body.
@Anniceris:
While I agree that no one has any obligation to divvy up their affections (sexual or otherwise) based on merit, I certainly do my best not to keep friends around that are not good friends even if I enjoy their company in some circumstances, and I do my best not to date women that treat me badly or that otherwise have important shortcomings even if I am very attracted to them. And this involves making conscious adult choices rather than just fluttering about based only (or mostly only) on my feelings. And if I consistently fail to do this, resulting in bad decisions that I fail to learn from over and over… well, yeah, I’m going to expect a certain lack of sympathy from people.
I expect the same from women.
The difference, I guess, is that I don’t complain about women that fail at this. I just think they’re children in that regard, and are less likely to be stable adult people in general. And I therefore avoid dating them. In fact, even if a woman is attracted to me, but I know she has an as-of-yet unbroken history of consistently bad dating choices, I will be quite wary of her.
So what I find hardest to understand, is why these guys don’t avoid these women instead of complaining about not receiving their affections. They should count it as a blessing that these women ignore them! Move on! They should follow their own advice and use rational thinking to find other more deserving women, even if they aren’t immediately attracted to them, and give them a chance! Leave these woman-children to their self-inflicted cycle of bad relationships.
Now, having said all this, I think there are also guys that complain about this with regard to women that are actually making perfectly sane dating choices. It’s sort of a defense mechanism against feeling worthless and unattractive (“it’s not me, it’s her!”). But this is also not specific to men. You hear women complaining about how men are all just pigs, and go for big boobs, and why are they dating that slut/bitch/whatever, etc. as a “it’s not me, it’s them!” kind of defensive reaction. In both the male and female case, sometimes these people really do just have things that make them unattractive to most of the population (some of which can be worked on). But also in both cases, it is often just because they aren’t putting themselves out there. Often because they’re afraid.
AB,
“We’re dealing with a conflict of philosophy here. I don’t believe that human feelings of worth are derived solely from sexual worth. In order to survive, humans rely on the process of reciprocal altruism, which means that even in framework of evolutionary psychology, feelings of belonging, acceptance, and status not related to sexual acceptance are crucial and would have developed early and shown up consistently throughout human history. Which they have.
Making such feelings dependant on sexual worth is a cultural process, not the other way around. It’s the difference between seeing it as starting with only a sexual value, and then try to make it dependant on a non-sexual value, and seeing it as starting with a non-sexual value, and trying to make sexual value depend on it.”
See, I don’t believe that human feelings of worth are derived solely from a feeling of sexual desirability, at least in psychologically healthy people they aren’t. I’m not going to go “survive and replicate” on you, but whichever way you look at the Maslow pyramid or any other motivational classification, you won’t get around the fact that sexual desirability is a pretty important aspect for most people, women and men, and very likely the most important aspect of self-esteem for people who are in the theoretically reproducively active bracket of their life. And there is an imbalance with respect to how women and men are experiencing this part of the human experience, I suppose we agree on that. I mean, that’s what you’re saying, aren’t you?
“What I’m thinking of when I make the argument that one’s sexual worth should not determine one’s value in other areas, are things like the comments I have seen about Hilary Clinton’s inadequate appearance when she ran for president of the USA. It is in no way related to ms. Clinton’s right to feel sexually valued, or the duty of the haters give her sexual validation. They can find the thought of having sex with her perfectly disgusting for all I care, but if their criticism of her as a politician is dependant on that, they need to shut up. Ms. Clinton does not have the right to receive praise for her looks or sexual offers from men, but she does have the right to not be treated as if she entered a beauty pageant when she’s running for office.”
Right. I agree. It’s not rarely hard for people to separate different dimensions (beautiful people of either sex do get more money) but in principle, sure. But I’m not really sure how that relates to the quesion of a general imbalance and social structures being the consequence of “men not believing they can be wanted so they cling to a world in which they’re needed.”
You’re arguing from a position in which you perceive your/women’s sexuality to be the only perceptible defining aspect of personhood. You say that is damaging, which I agree with, although I don’t think it’s still as bad as you seem to imply. And I’m saying that *not* having sexuality as a perceptible defining aspect of personhood (ie not *feeling* wanted) is equally bad, which you can’t seem to relate to.
If we could end that imbalance, the world would very likely be a better place.
@sam yeah, I think we’re pretty much in agreement. I think everyone is entitled to their preferences and attractions, male or female, and I have just as little truck with complaints from women that men are superficial or whatever (and have called friends out for this) as I do with guys who think they “deserve” women’s sexual attraction because they are nice.
But of course recognising people’s right to be attracted to whom they will doesn’t mean anyone else must be sympathetic to their repeated romantic fuckups, or must put up with ill-treatment. Those are very distinct matters, to my mind.
@sam yeah, I think we’re pretty much in agreement. I think everyone is entitled to their preferences and attractions, male or female, and I have just as little truck with complaints from women that men are superficial or whatever (and have called friends out for this) as I do with guys who think they “deserve” women’s sexual attraction because they are nice.
But of course recognising people’s right to be attracted to whom they will doesn’t mean anyone else must be sympathetic to their repeated romantic fuckups, or must put up with ill-treatment. Those are very distinct matters, to my mind.
So what I find hardest to understand, is why these guys don’t avoid these women instead of complaining about not receiving their affections. They should count it as a blessing that these women ignore them! Move on! They should follow their own advice and use rational thinking to find other more deserving women, even if they aren’t immediately attracted to them, and give them a chance! Leave these woman-children to their self-inflicted cycle of bad relationships.
This looks very close to how I’ve always felt. If Party A thinks they’re a good person and valuable enough to receive sexual attention from Party B, but Party B likes Party C, and Party A judges Party C to be some sort of moral failure, then isn’t Party A lucky enough to have dodged a bullet since they obviously have such a different moral code from Party B? Their complaints do feel a lot like sour grapes when Party A can’t recognize that.
Regarding the OP, I think it’s been evident for a long time that heterosexual women find men attractive. There’s no shortage of media, mythology, or children that would indicate otherwise. I wonder if huge numbers of heterosexual men writing off their own sexuality doesn’t come from the meme that society ties men to their professions. If a heterosexual man is a firefighter, and thinks of himself as a firefighter, he may confidently pursue romantic relationships secure in the fact that he has a societally approved place in the world, and not bother to address his own sexuality much outside of a clean shave and a little body spray. This leaves the door open for ‘sexy men,’ men that heterosexual women want because they are sexy, which is acceptable in this paradigm because sexy is their career (e.g.,Chippendale dancers, actors, pop musicians, jiggalos, etc.). So “normal men” achieving their romance the “normal way” can ignore these exceptions to the “men aren’t sexy” meme because those men are just professionally sexy and “normal men” have “normal jobs” they have to do so they can earn heterosexual women’s attention “the normal way.” As for the “Average Guy Makes Good, Gets Girl,” storyline doesn’t come from younger men who haven’t found themselves yet, or men who been forced to settle for a paycheck in a job that isn’t “them” getting a little wish fulfillment. I’m sure society is largely happy to purport a “keep your head down, behave yourself, do your job, and good things will come your way” as a sort of modern-day masculine targeted Cinderella story.
With regards to the cum dumpster thing.
I find poop gross, even my own poop. That does not mean that I hate myself.
I find urine kind of icky, even my own urine. That does not mean that I hate myself.
In fact I find the majority of bodily fluids gross and it doesn’t mean that I hate myself.
So, if I (and many other people) find bodily fluids and their receptacles gross without self hating why is it that when a man calls a woman a cum dumpster it’s ::obviously:: because he hates his own sexuality?
@Sisyphus: I think I have to agree with you there – Male sexuality? All fine and awesome. Semen? Proof of a Divine Creator that hates sex, or at least wants it to be really, really hard to clean up after. The stuff seems to have about five different physical states, and can adopt whichever one is going to be least pleasant/hardest to clean up at will.
I suspect y’all might be taking “cum dumpster” too literally. It’s about viewing women as nothing more than a hole to fuck. There are a few leaps from that to, “my sexuality makes me nothing more than a brainless fuck machine who fucks stupid hole owners” but personally I don’t find it to be implausible.
Also, re: semen, do the majority of bodily fluids present themselves at the moment of orgasm? I mean I’m not going to argue that you can’t find something gross if I don’t think you should find something gross, but… anyway… well I’m definitely not going to go oversharing right now. Anyway!
@typhonblue:
“This is the full quote AB:”
No it’s not, it’s the part of a longer post which you chose to quote. And what came after it, the “you are talking about men in general”, is your statement, not mine. Sorry, but no matter how often you quote something and then afterwards interject “And what you REALLY mean is…..” it does not make your accusation correct. I’m going to quote a longer part of the post and explain it to you. Since I don’t know how to bold text, I’ll instead write the parts that are important for you to notice with capital letters. Here it is:
“I don’t recognise the pain of being sexually invisible as being equal to the pain of just being invisible. I usually describe it as the difference between seeing people as sex objects first, people second, and seeing them as sex objects first, nothing second. I have experienced GUYS who practically ignored girls they were not sexually interested in, despite having no problem socialising non-sexually with other guys.
I’ve even gone so far (in my teens) as to deliberately play up my sex appeal in the hope of getting A GUY to talk to me, and then slowly easing away from the sexual stuff as we started talking more and more, until he’d came to regard me as a friend who was funny and interesting to be around in my own right, because I knew HE would be unlikely to consider a friendship with a girl unless HE was sexually attracted.”
In the first part, I describe my experience with some guys. Since you did not accuse me of talking about all guys there, I will take the liberty to presume that my intention (i.e. “I have met guys who did X” rather than “Guys do X”) in that sentence was clear enough. As for the latter, the use of ‘a guy’ is supposed to refer to a particular guy (or actually a couple, since it happened more than once), hence why I used the singular expression, which is, as far as I know, close to the only way in the English language to communicate this.
If I had wanted to communicate that this was my behaviour towards guys in general, or that the reason I felt this way about said guy was that I considered it the behaviour of all guys, I would have said ‘guys’, or just told that I acted more flirtatious than I really felt in general, in the hopes of getting the attention of a guy, any guy. This is especially obvious if you compare it to the upper part of the quote (the one you left out).
Now, there is always the possibility that misunderstandings occur. Even though your first assumption was rude and very suspicious towards me, I could forgive you that, since this is a heated topic and I was equally rude back at you. But when I made it clear that it actually made a big difference whether we used my choice of words, ‘a guy’, or your choice of words, ‘guys in general’, this should have made you consider that maybe you had read too much into your own interpretation, and maybe I was actually just talking about ‘a guy’.
There are several ways to make that clear. You could have asked “When you say you have experienced ‘guys’ who do this, do you mean that there are some guys who act like this, or that it is the general male sentiment?”. Or: “When you talk about ‘a guy’ do you mean a specific guy or all of them? And do your conclusions about him come from observations on this guy in particular, or is it your general assumption of guys in general?”. This would have avoided a lot of hostility, and in contrast to reacting to being told that you’re interpreting a text wrong by quoting it again and making the exact same accusation with the same lack of an explanation as the last time, it would have made it clearer that you were actually interested in getting my point, not just in scoring points.
“Where the hell did this come from?”
That I have never seen you speculate about the pain of a misandrist, a feminist, or even a woman, to the same extent you do with this guy, despite him being more openly misogynitic than most of the people you’ve accused of misandry. You condemn them, hold them responsible for everything they say and do, as well as everything you think they mean, and make no excuses. It seems like whenever someone says something bad about men, it is to be taken as proof that men are unfairly victimised, but when someone says something bad about women, it is to be taken as a sign of self-loathing and used to show how bad things are for men.
@typhonblue:
“Not really. ‘Cum dumpster’ = men’s sexuality is garbage. I used gross instead of garbage but the sentence works as well with garbage.”
But the guy you’re comparing this hypothetical woman with did not say “my sexuality is garbage”, he called women dumpsters. That he meant to denigrate his own sexuality is an interpretation, whereas your hypothetical example “my sexuality is gross”, is pretty straightforward. Give an example of a fat person talking contemptuously about their slim sexual partners, and we’ll have a better comparison.
“Incidentally, you’re adding in all this ‘sexually abused’ stuff. Sex with a man does not equal sexual abuse.”
I actually think it’s a lot safer to conclude that some of the times he made his partners say yes after they had already sad no were probably a case of sexual abuse, than it is to conclude that because he speaks dismissively of women, he must have low thoughts about men.
@Xakudo:
“Now, having said all this, I think there are also guys that complain about this with regard to women that are actually making perfectly sane dating choices. It’s sort of a defense mechanism against feeling worthless and unattractive (“it’s not me, it’s her!”). But this is also not specific to men. You hear women complaining about how men are all just pigs, and go for big boobs, and why are they dating that slut/bitch/whatever, etc. as a “it’s not me, it’s them!” kind of defensive reaction. In both the male and female case, sometimes these people really do just have things that make them unattractive to most of the population (some of which can be worked on). But also in both cases, it is often just because they aren’t putting themselves out there. Often because they’re afraid.”
I have spoken to quite a few guys, and heard accounts from quite a few guys, and none of them seem to be as personally affected as the girls I’ve heard. Perhaps it’s because guys react more aggressively. They don’t mope around, eat chocolate, and cry on a friend’s shoulder, they’re more inclined to go “Punish the bitch! Punish the bitch!” as in the case of Nice Guys(TM).
Their ideology also seems to be different. Most women I’ve met seem to think that life’s unfair, but they’re more inclined to spend their time advocating a more non-sexual judgement of women, or try to live up to society’s standards of beauty. I have seen a lot fewer women who argue that it is ideologically wrong for men to have preferences than I have seen men argue about women. They might present male sexuality as dirty in order to dismiss what they miss out on, but they do not suggest that society needs an equal distribution of dick and make men responsible for it.
@Darque:
“It doesn’t have to be one thing or another. If I was with someone who only was in a relationship with me because of something I did, and 0 sexual attraction, I would dump them because that is what we call a friend and not a sexual relationship. Maybe I’m crazy, but I think a sexual partner should be with you for the attraction that they feel, AND for who you are.”
And you don’t think anything but being, well, a cum dumpster can possibly be sexually attractive? That someone who’s with their parter mainly because of the partner’s non-physical qualities can’t be sexually attracted to those non-physical qualities? You don’t think people can do something sexy?
“You said: “and I know for a fact that your disagreement that the less physical way of being found sexy can be appealing is untrue”
I will give you credit for not writing anything condescending until now. That though? Extremely condescending.
Let me tell you this: You know nothing about what dating is like for men, and I don’t think you care to know. I honestly don’t think it’s worth my time engaging with you anymore on this issue. So I’m going to play nice, and talk with other people here instead.”
What do you want me to do, lie? I know for a fact that your claim that being appreciated and found sexy in a less physical way can’t be appealing is wrong, because I have tried it and it was appealing to me. Do you want me to pretend it wasn’t a good feeling? Do you want me to say that the kind of sexual attention women get is always based on admiration and appreciation for them, and is always a compliment, even though I personally know from having been on the receiving end and talking to other women about it that it is not always the case? And to simultaneously say that the things you don’t enjoy are objectively unenjoyable even though I enjoy them?
What is it with people here assuming that because I’m not a man, I’m not even fit to talk about MY OWN experiences? How come it can’t be pleasurable and exiting for a woman to be told “you’re so cool”, “I really feel I can talk to you”, “you’re so smart”, “I trust you”, “you’re so funny”, and “wow! that was really impressive!”, as opposed to being groped and leered at? Why can’t it be a feeling of validation for a woman to help the shy guy, who’s way hotter than she’ll ever be BTW, get over his fears and sexual hangups, breaking through his shell, gaining his trust, courting him, and making him slowly become more and more sexually adventurous?
How come pretty much every man on this thread can go on and on about how perfectly wonderful it would be to be seen as a body to slake someone’s sexual need, despite many of them admitting to not even having tried it, and yet a woman can’t talk about how pleasurable and validating it can feel to attract people based on non-physical qualities, despite having actual experiences with it? I’m not saying you need to feel good about it, but please stop acting as if that means it can’t be good for anyone.
“What do you want me to do, lie? I know for a fact that your claim that being appreciated and found sexy in a less physical way can’t be appealing is wrong, because I have tried it and it was appealing to me. ”
Lie? No. But you might try understanding people’s points and responding to them now and then. What your experience has been is completely irrelevant to Darque’s point. he is tlaking about his experience, and there is no reason why your and his expreiences would have any point of similarity. It is not as if we are talking about some simple-minded Platonic ideal of Appealing.
@Jim:
“Lie? No. But you might try understanding people’s points and responding to them now and then. What your experience has been is completely irrelevant to Darque’s point. he is tlaking about his experience, and there is no reason why your and his expreiences would have any point of similarity. It is not as if we are talking about some simple-minded Platonic ideal of Appealing.”
I am not the one responding to Darque, he is the one responding to me, and my experiences. This line of conversation started when I, September 24, 2011 at 9:25 pm, said the following:
“And perhaps we should also acknowledge that there can also be something appealing about the less physical way men are more typically found sexy.”
It was not making any claims about whether men found it appealing (though considering that I have seen only pleased reactions, I’ll say it’s likely), let alone whether Darque found it appealing, only that with all this talk about how validating it is to be wanted just for your looks, I think it’s only reasonable we don’t act as if the other part isn’t good too. On September 24, 2011 at 10:41 pm, Darque quotes this and answers:
““And perhaps we should also acknowledge that there can also be something appealing about the less physical way men are more typically found sexy.”
Which, I also disagree with. Because, as a man, I have a different perspective.”
He then go on to talk about how it’s ultimately hollow or something, as if he’s feelings were the objective truth. We continue to talk, me talking about the feeling itself and what it can be (CAN be, not what it must be for everyone), and Darque talking about it as if we were only discussing his personal feelings and experiences, and continuously stretching his sex as making him more qualified to talk about whether it can feel good or not. On September 26, 2011 at 10:00 am, I say:
“I’m not saying you need to feel good about it, but please stop acting as if that means it can’t be good for anyone.”
Which I do not in any way see as claiming our experiences should in any way be similar. IN fact, I see it as exactly what you accuse me of not doing: acknowledging that one person’s experience is irrelevant to those of another. It was just that, in my case, I was trying to explain to Darque how repeatedly stretching his experiences (and his sex) did not invalidate mine, which, as should be obvious by now, was about being found sexy for something non-physical.
I never agreed to discuss Darque’s feelings, he brought them up as a counter to an objectively true claim I made (and yes, “it can feel good” is objectively true when you’ve felt it), and have tried to discredit me by stretching how much of a man he is and how I’m a woman who couldn’t possibly know about these things. He has also made arguments which have nothing do with his feelings, such as re-interpreting my “the less physical way men are often found sexy” to mean a completely platonic relationship.
Maybe I misunderstood him, maybe his misunderstood me, but one thing I know for certain is: I did NOT make claims about Darque’s feelings or the validity of them, but he sure as hell made them about me when he made his sex into an argument for disagreeing with my experiences with less physical sexual validation. And I’m already bloody pissed about it, so if you want to continue to pretend your accusations have any merit, you need to give concrete proof it.
I didn’t notice Sisyphus’s post before (I was too busy answering all the posts directed at me), but I’ll second (or rather, third) it. I don’t find myself disgusting because I contain spit and menstrual blood, even though both of these fluids are considered gross and are inside some very intimate parts of my body. I also know my boyfriend has ingested both those fluids, and I don’t think less of him because of it, but I have no trouble seeing scenarios where it could be considered humiliating for him to be exposed to, or ingest, spit and menstrual blood, such as if I spat on his face. Even though some people like to be spat on sexually, it’s usually considered humiliating, and not because it shows that the spitter contains spit.
I also have no trouble picturing the scenario of a woman pressing a man’s head down between her legs while telling him to lick it up like a good little man-whore, without having low thoughts about the body fluids down there. It’s more about the perception of power than anything else. If you’re considered dominant, you’re often afforded more respect (many people in the BDSM scene will attest to this), and if you’re considered to be the one who make the other pleasure you, you’re also implied to have dominance over them. Men are usually considered dominant in bed, so it’s easier for a man to present himself as such, and talk derisively of the people he has sex with.
“How come pretty much every man on this thread can go on and on about how perfectly wonderful it would be to be seen as a body to slake someone’s sexual need, despite many of them admitting to not even having tried it, and yet a woman can’t talk about how pleasurable and validating it can feel to attract people based on non-physical qualities, despite having actual experiences with it? I’m not saying you need to feel good about it, but please stop acting as if that means it can’t be good for anyone.”
You came in here denying that there’s a problem. Don’t pretend that you came in here trying to merely talk about your experiences in a positive, additive way. It wasn’t so much “men may have this problem, but women have this other one, too”, as “men don’t have a problem, they just think they do because of the MEDIA and privilege, but women have this huge problem, which would be twice as big as the problem as the one men think they have if they actually had one, which they don’t”.
“I have spoken to quite a few guys, and heard accounts from quite a few guys, and none of them seem to be as personally affected as the girls I’ve heard. Perhaps it’s because guys react more aggressively. They don’t mope around, eat chocolate, and cry on a friend’s shoulder, they’re more inclined to go “Punish the bitch! Punish the bitch!” as in the case of Nice Guys(TM).
Their ideology also seems to be different. Most women I’ve met seem to think that life’s unfair, but they’re more inclined to spend their time advocating a more non-sexual judgement of women, or try to live up to society’s standards of beauty. I have seen a lot fewer women who argue that it is ideologically wrong for men to have preferences than I have seen men argue about women. They might present male sexuality as dirty in order to dismiss what they miss out on, but they do not suggest that society needs an equal distribution of dick and make men responsible for it.”
I suppose the “I talked to many guys, seriously, you don’t know them, but what they said totally confirmed that women are better than men” argument is unassailable, albeit in a shallow and unconvincing way. Many, many guys deal with this stuff quietly and it’s against guy culture to ever talk about insecurities in this area. It takes compassion and understanding to coax it out of them.
Women complain all the time that men’s preferences are ideologically wrong, much more than men talk about women’s preferences. I know many, many women, older friends who are slightly getting up there in years, who think it an objective wrong for their male peers to date women over five years younger than they are. (Some of them don’t even grant them that.) They aren’t mum about voicing these opinions either, after we all finish eating and a glass of wine or two.
Weight is a bit thornier because there are many fat men and women both and it is not as clearly a gendered issue as age. Yet, as I’m sure some of your favorite bookmarked sites will tell you, fatness is seen as more of an issue for women (while height is more so for men). Thus naturally, in what would be considered polite company, I’ve heard people talk about a literal numerical cutoff for height that would be considered unacceptable and crass if the same language were used for weight.
Finally, for every guy who thinks his “niceness” will earn him favor with women and becomes upset when it doesn’t, there’s a girl who thinks that way about her alleged “smartness” or career accomplishments. I could write much more on the parallels between “nice guy” and “smart girl”, as well as more examples, but I’ve written enough here and I’ll only write more when prompted by an actual intelligent, thought-provoking post. Women aren’t fairer than men, men don’t believe that “pussy needs to be shared equally”, and for every man who’s said an outrageous thing a female counterpart could easily be found, but I’m wasting my time saying this because anyone worth talking to already knows this. You’ve already made up your mind that men are bad and that you’re a victim, so there is little point – I’m sure you’re just about to remember that even more guys in your past have retroactively said something even more outrageous that would just “NUH-UH!” everything I just said. Rather than get bogged down in that, I hope some readers and lurkers can take assurance in the fact that this sort of drivel WILL get pushback. And now onto someone who’ll likely be more rewarding to talk to…
“After reading the whole back and forth (whew!), I’ve come to the conclusion that the problem of most men not feeling sexually attractive is not at all a gendered thing, but the EXACT SAME THING THAT MOST WOMEN FEEL. All the examples cited in pop culture only underline how women are MADE to feel unattractive because the standard of female attractiveness is set so ridiculously high. And as others have mentioned, while many women get sexually harassed (unwelcome & disrespectful attention), that does not in any way make them feel attractive. And the kind of attention that does make someone feel attractive (respectful attention) mainly happens only to certain people (the few who are conventionally attractive) – and this is true of BOTH men and women. The majority of BOTH genders feel unattractive. So how is this a gendered issue?”
Jessica, are you seriously denying that perceptions of physical attractiveness aren’t gendered? That there isn’t this general idea out there that “women are more beautiful than men”? I find that hard to swallow, because feminists often reference it when they’re complaining about its downsides. Not one person I’ve ever talked about these issues with was unfamiliar with this idea. Very few men don’t think it (to their detriment, I say), and no woman on the street would feign ignorance of it, either to go on to argue for it, against it, or be passively mildly annoyed by it.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re saying here – if you’re saying that most men and most women feel unattractive overall and that we should all be in this together, I certainly agree with you. If you ‘re saying that the unmarked woman may be considered better looking than her exact male counterpart, but that the very top, photoshopped pinnacle of female beauty is celebrated much more than the male version, and that the bar for an acceptable level of physical attractiveness is set higher anyway, and that all this simply moves the whole female beauty scale upward so it’s all a wash anyway, I’ll agree with that also. But it sounds to me like you’re denying this part – that any random woman is likely to be considered better looking than her exact male counterpart – as well. (Or, in other words, more women are considered beautiful than men are.) Are you?
Because I have data. There’s that OKCupid study that you may have seen before, which showed that the average woman found the average man physically unattractive, which wasn’t true the other way around. There’s an evo psych study that showed that girls are more likely than boys to be considered beautiful by their teachers growing up, while boys are more likely to be considered ugly. (I hesitate to link to it, though I will if I have to, because I disagree with the way this data is interpreted – that “women are better looking than men” is an actual, objective fact, rather than a *perception* and social bias on the part of the teachers. But it at least provides evidence that this social bias exists, especially if you consider that most schoolteachers are likely heterosexual women.) And there were other studies that I’ve forgotten about, but I could find again based on vague general memories if you give me some time. I’m just wondering whether or not I should take that time because I’m still not sure if someone’s denying something so patently obvious – that this idea that “women are better looking than men” exists and is out there – that I don’t think it necessary yet.
I agree that the majority of most men and women probably feel unattractive, but it’s likely to be for slightly different reasons. And I’ll echo any sentiment of solidarity, compassion, and understanding on this issue – the typical male “7” probably knows exactly how a female “4” feels, given that they probably received the same amount of positive feedback about their appearance growing up. (She probably received a lot more negative feedback about it, though, while his experience was most likely one of very few people commenting on it either way.) So there could be natural understanding between conventionally unattractive women and most men that’s being unaddressed.
Finally, btw, @anniceris, I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said on this thread, just thought I’d let you know. Shine on, you crazy diamond.
– “Jessica, are you seriously denying that perceptions of physical attractiveness aren’t gendered? That there isn’t this general idea out there that “women are more beautiful than men”?”
I don’t deny the cultural meme that women are considered “more beautiful” than men, as a whole. I just don’t think that’s relevant to this discussion – or at least to the points I was trying to make, and the thrust of this thread, which I thought was about people’s feelings of attractiveness. Yes women spend FAR more effort (and money) making themselves look “beautiful”, and are far more likely to wear clothes and accessories specifically designed to achieve that regardless of comfort, utility, etc – and that is totally a gendered thing (a women’s measure of “success” = how they look, while a man’s measure of “success” = status, power, wealth, etc. I just don’t think that changes the fact that most men AND women BOTH feel unattractive. Women just spend a lot more time and effort trying make themselves be seen as more attractive, where men don’t so much. That too is a gendered difference, but I wasn’t addressing it in my post, and neither have others on this thread that I’ve noticed.
Basically, attractiveness does not equal beauty. Just because men as a gender are less beautiful overall than women doesn’t make them any less attractive (as a gender) to women – women don’t expect and need men to wear makeup, style their hair, wear tight-fitting clothes, “flattering” shoes, etc in order to consider them attractive. That’s totally 100% a culture thing, and a gendered thing, but again not what I considered the topic of this thread to be about, and not what I was talking about in my post.
Oops, I should have said “just because men as a gender are CONSIDERED less beautiful overall…” – and I should probably have defined the word “beautiful” more, because how I’m defining it based on what I said above makes it non-synonymous with attractive, but others could totally define it differently.
@ Uncalledfor: I described both of the types of experience you refer to in my post. I just didn’t posit them as being clearly gendered, i.e. women experience messages of unattractiveness from the media & advertising, while men experience messages of unattractiveness from interactions with women. I think this dichotomy is ridiculous – both men AND women experience such messages from interactions with people of the opposite gender (as at least one woman on this very thread clearly described experiencing throughout her life, and I have as well), and both men AND women are subjected to an unrealistic standard of beauty, and advertising specifically designed to make us feel unattractive (so we’ll buy stuff). If you haven’t noticed how the latter is aimed at both genders, then honestly, you just haven’t been paying attention very well.
@pocketjacks:
“You came in here denying that there’s a problem. Don’t pretend that you came in here trying to”
I’m going to cut you off right there. If you have nothing to add except evaluations of my personal character and motivation, and if you believe you do not need to listen to what I say or evaluate my actual words objectively, but are instead free to infer whatever the hell you want because you know my real motivation, there’s no point.
I made some very concrete, and ungendered, points, not responding to anyone’s feelings of experiences but based solely on my own, and got the answer that I was wrong because I was a woman and speaking about it would be to dismiss the experiences of men. Whether or not you think I’m denying that there is a problem (my actual post said that the examples in the OP and the issues they supposedly illustrated were not particularly gendered, but I don’t expect you to see the difference) does not have any influence on that. And if you think it has, I have no reason to believe you’re arguing in good faith.
@ AB
Fine, AB, I’ll let you clear up the misunderstanding for me.
Do you believe that most men won’t pay attention to women if they don’t have a sexual interest in them?
“That I have never seen you speculate about the pain of a misandrist, a feminist, or even a woman, to the same extent you do with this guy, despite him being more openly misogynitic than most of the people you’ve accused of misandry.”
LOLWUT? I said he’s probably self-loathing. I think his statements are so obviously self-derogatory that it’s hilarious. I think he should be laughed at and, also, pitied.
Believe me, I’ve also felt this way about misandrists, feminists and women. So no worries for you there.
Re: Cumdumpster
If a woman derisively referred to a man who liked preforming oral sex as a ‘sewage slurper’ or a promiscuous man as a ‘sewer snake’ I think we could reasonably infer she has a low opinion of her genitals and by extension her sexuality.
“I actually think it’s a lot safer to conclude that some of the times he made his partners say yes after they had already sad no were probably a case of sexual abuse”
And his sexual bullying is irrelevant to the discussion of the euphemism he used.
@Jessica:
“Basically, attractiveness does not equal beauty. Just because men as a gender are less beautiful overall than women doesn’t make them any less attractive (as a gender) to women”
I can’t help thinking about that OKCupid statistic about women evaluating most men as being below average in appearance. Even disregarding all the reasons this could be affected by something other than attraction, it’s worth noticing that when it came to showing interest, the women’s actual behaviour was less discriminatory than the men’s.
@ AB
“Even disregarding all the reasons this could be affected by something other than attraction, it’s worth noticing that when it came to showing interest, the women’s actual behaviour was less discriminatory than the men’s.”
Or it was discriminatory based on other factors.
@typhonblue:
“Fine, AB, I’ll let you clear up the misunderstanding for me.”
That’s very gracious of you.
“Do you believe that most men won’t pay attention to women if they don’t have a sexual interest in them?”
No. But in my experience, it is more common for men to mainly show the same degree of interest and regard to women as they show to men based on the woman’s physical attractiveness. Perhaps homosocial women are merely less obvious, because they’re usually approached rather than approaching, so they don’t spend a lot of time acting friendly or interested in men they want to date. Perhaps my experiences with women are simply not as extensive. Nevertheless, that is my experience.
“Re: Cumdumpster
If a woman derisively referred to a man who liked preforming oral sex as a ‘sewage slurper’ or a promiscuous man as a ‘sewer snake’ I think we could reasonably infer she has a low opinion of her genitals and by extension her sexuality.”
She referred to her nether area as a sewage. The man did not refer to part of himself being dirty, he referred to the women. In Danish, spitlicker is an insult, and spit is generally considered to have almost as much ‘humiliating’ power as semen, despite being in everybody and being exchanged via kisses all the time. It’s not the presence of body fluids, it’s the context in which they’re used. When my boyfriend spit on my chest as improvised lubrication before Spanish sex, it could be considered humiliating for me. But it could also be considered humiliating for him if I spat on him.
And if I had my boyfriend eat my… I’m not sure there is an English word for it, but ‘udflåd’, the slimy stuff between women’s legs. Anyway, if I made my boyfriend eat that and then mocked him for it afterwards and called him dirty because his face was covered by it, it would have a lot more potential for humiliation for him than if it had been more equal.
I’ve said it before, I strongly believe it’s a power issue more than anything. Being submissive is seen as more embarrassing and is given less status. Many people do not make a big distinction between dominating someone and taking advantage of them (and to be fair, they often go together), and both are considered more humiliating for the submissive/victim. In some ways, there is a point to it. Victims of sexual abuse often report feeling extremely dirty, and this includes men who were abused by women. It’s not the physical act, or which sex performs it, it’s the emotional context.
“And his sexual bullying is irrelevant to the discussion of the euphemism he used.”
First off, I was answering your own question of why I referred to his sexual partners as being someone he abused. And secondly, I think it’s damn relevant. If a woman bullies a boy to have sex with her and then calls him filthy for it, he’s not likely to infer from that “Clearly she hates herself and believes that her body and sexuality is dirty, and this must be because she wasn’t told enough how wonderful and pure she was”. And neither would we.
@ AB
“She referred to her nether area as a sewage.”
Sewage usually refers to liquid garbage. Therefore what’s she’s referring to are the secretions coming off her vagina.
And he referred to his ‘cum’ as something that belonged in a dumpster, aka. garbage.
“The man did not refer to part of himself being dirty, he referred to the women.”
Is a woman a garbage container until she has cum inside her? No. She’s not. It’s the act of receiving ejaculate that turns her into a dumpster.
Ejaculate does not correspond to spitting. Spitting is not a unique marker of your gender and it likely references the process of vomiting. Vomit isn’t seen as an integral part of a person’s identity; it’s usually seen as a byproduct of sickness.
Ejaculate is not the byproduct of sickness, it’s part of a healthy process that symbolizes the sexuality of half the human race.
What corresponds to ejaculation are the natural secretions of an aroused vagina(which are generally just as voluminous as the average ejaculate if not more so). Is the process of a man ingesting these secretions or getting them on his body or up his urethra considered a way of defiling and humiliating him?
No.
Why not?
And if we lived in a society that regarded vaginal secretions as defiling and humiliating, what would you think about that society’s attitude towards women?
” If a woman bullies a boy to have sex with her and then calls him filthy for it, he’s not likely to infer from that “Clearly she hates herself and believes that her body and sexuality is dirty, and this must be because she wasn’t told enough how wonderful and pure she was”.”
Irrelevant to discussing the sexual euphemism he used; when he used it he was simply referring to a woman being ‘used’ as a cum dumpster, as far as I remember no other context was referenced.
Jessica: “both men AND women are subjected to an unrealistic standard of beauty, and advertising specifically designed to make us feel unattractive (so we’ll buy stuff). If you haven’t noticed how the latter is aimed at both genders, then honestly, you just haven’t been paying attention very well.”
I certainly agree with the “make us feel unattractive, so we’ll buy stuff” part. But within that advertising system there is still a big, decidedly gendered difference in experiences.
When I go to a magazine stand (yours may differ), most of the offerings are from one of two types: (i) mags selling things to women, with beautiful women on the cover, and (ii) mags selling things to men, which also have beautiful women on the cover. Yes, there are exceptions, but of the mags that might influence your idea of what constitutes attractive these two fill nearly all the space. The covers’ message for women, obviously, is: “if you don’t look like this, then you’re unattractive and unworthy”. The covers’ message for me, equally obviously, is: “If you’re not dating or sleeping with a woman who looks like this, then you’re unattractive and unworthy.” Both are a means of pushing products by making people feel unattractive; but the presentations are not sex-symmetric and the experiences men and women each have with these media are not at all the same. If you can’t see this much, then I think it’s you who haven’t been paying attention.
Uncalledfor, I think your analysis is one of the most on-point in this thread. 🙂
A bit related to the cum-bucket thing, and the men-aren’t-sexy thing, and the men’s sexuality isn’t valuable:
I feel like that is pretty representative (even if caricatured) of some of the major attitudes our culture has about sex and men and women. (Still love the song, though, ’cause it’s hilarious… and in fact it seems like they’re making fun of those attitudes, too.)
Related to “Cum-dumpster” argument: Both the male “seed” and the female “receptor” (help me out with a better analogy/euphemism here, that just feels so wrong) are sacred and wonderful, IMO.
Zie who fights with me shall be my blood-sibling. All who love me unconditionally shall see their love returned.
And ladies, copliment a random guy on the street today. Ya never know…
Uncalledfor, I agree with Ozy.
They says sex sells products, but that’s not what’s going on. They aren’t selling sex, they’re selling sexual and emotional frustration.
Jim:
Unfortunately, Consensus on what is traditionally “attractive” leads us away from the more average woman/man/intersex (especially the intersex!) being used to sell what are at best aspirational products.
Like, “Drape tits over that Stereo! Dudebros will go mad for it!” or “Drip yoghurt on them abs! Hormonal chicks will cream their drawers for it!”
I dream of a world where a better percentage of people (like, 90% or over) are considered, if not beautiful, then at least “Un-ugly”. (Ungly? does that even work?)
AB,
There’s a lot wrong in your posts. For starters, you’re trying to play the victim now by saying all you’ve done is talk about your own experiences, and “you can’t attack me for my experiences!!!!” Except… much of “your” experiences are not your own but those of the men you know (or at least what you claim about them), and the nasty motivations you’ve imputed on them that you couldn’t possibly be privy to. (Funny because ascribing motivations is what you accused me of doing.) Such as:
[they’re] more inclined to go “Punish the bitch! Punish the bitch!”
… for just one, randomly misandrist example. Don’t make sweeping generalizations or attacks upon whole classes of men, stick an “in my experience,” or “I know this guy who,” before it, and expect it to be treated with the deference reserved for actual personal experiences.
But let’s play along with what you’re saying.
“Whether or not you think I’m denying that there is a problem (my actual post said that the examples in the OP and the issues they supposedly illustrated were not particularly gendered…”
I can parse this a number of ways. I’m not sure what you mean by “the issues they supposedly illustrated” here. If you mean something specific to the examples the OP used, such as the male-striptease-played-for-laughs type scene in comedies, then I don’t really have an opinion either way. I’m not married to those examples myself. But if you’re referring to male vs. female beauty in the most general terms, I’ll ask you the same question I asked Jessica:
“Jessica, are you seriously denying that perceptions of physical attractiveness aren’t gendered? That there isn’t this general idea out there that “women are more beautiful than men”? I find that hard to swallow, because feminists often reference it when they’re complaining about its downsides. Not one person I’ve ever talked about these issues with was unfamiliar with this idea. Very few men don’t think it (to their detriment, I say), and no woman on the street would feign ignorance of it, either to go on to argue for it, against it, or be passively mildly annoyed by it.”
Now, when you say things like “I know there is a mindset of “there is a mindset of “men are inherently trolls, women are inherently sexy”” in places like here… “, it implies that that mindset *doesn’t* exist amongst the general public. It certainly sounds like you’re denying that there’s a general idea out there that “women are more beautiful than men”. When I asked for clarification, Jessica, being a card-carrying inhabitant of the real world and also someone arguing in good faith, readily agreed that the “women are more beautiful than men” idea exists. Do you agree with her? If not, why do you think she so immediately recognized the problem when I asked her? Did I zap her with my patriarchy rays?
It’s true that there are classes of women that are viewed as uglier than other women, including some that are seen as worse than the vast majority of other women OR men (women above 200 lb., for instance). But to deny the “all else held equal” difference between the genders, to deny that the average, unmarked man is seen as uglier than the average, unmarked woman, is to deny that there is a problem – because the specific problem we’re talking about is precisely that difference between genders.
Jessica,
“I don’t deny the cultural meme that women are considered “more beautiful” than men, as a whole. I just don’t think that’s relevant to this discussion – or at least to the points I was trying to make, and the thrust of this thread, which I thought was about people’s feelings of attractiveness.”
I have a feeling we agree far more than we disagree here. I agree that both genders are equally insecure about their appeal to the opposite sex. When I say that “the average, unmarked man is seen as uglier than the average, unmarked woman”, that doesn’t mean women necessarily have an attractiveness* premium. The man may not (be considered to) have the looks but he can make up for it in other ways, ways that are often denied or minimized in women. Summing it all together, it’s probably a wash. Men are seen as less beautiful but can have stuff like money and influence that make them attractive. Women are seen as more beautiful but have less to add on to that.
But I disagree that this post was talking about attractiveness in general. I think it was talking about beauty and hotness (physical hotness, that is; many use the word more broadly than that) specifically. There are issues that arise from being seen as lacking in beauty that are different from those of lacking attractive qualities in other areas, and to talk about them we need to restrict the discussion. It’s not saying one is better than the other; when you want to talk about liver failure, you restrict the discussion to that. It doesn’t imply that heart failure is somehow better, but there are pathologies specific to each ailment and you may need to compartmentalize.
But then again, at 100+ posts it probably doesn’t matter and we can talk about whatever the hell we want. 😀
@pocketjacks:
“AB,
There’s a lot wrong in your posts. For starters, you’re trying to play the victim now”’
No, if the feelings I express are called ‘playing the victim’ then I’ve been that way from the beginning. I was pissed when Darque responded to my statement “the less physical way in which men are often found sexually attractive can be appealing too”, a statement which not only doesn’t claim to be universal (“can be” as opposed to “is”) but is also based on my own experiences (as a woman who has been found attractive for non-physical qualities), by trying to invalidate it on the count that he was a man.
I chose to not act as pissed as I was feeling at the time, but that doesn’t mean I wasn’t pissed or that I don’t think Darque is a sexist jerk. But when you and Jim decided to butt into a conversation you didn’t appear to have followed in order to defend Darque’s right to debunk a gender neutral and factually correct statement by referring to his sex, I got even more pissed.
And I still am, I think you’re acting like sexist idiots, especially in light of how tu quoque had recently made an absolutist statement about the intentions of people using the word ‘creep’ despite not being among those people himself, and actually had people defending him (including Jim, fancy that). The fact that you accuse me of ‘playing the victim NOW’ as if being angry over this is just an act I’m putting on just convinces me further that your feeling of entitlement to make personal attacks is only surpassed by your ignorance of what you’re attacking.
“by saying all you’ve done is talk about your own experiences”
I was saying that Darque attacked me on my experiences, not the other way around. I hope I didn’t claim that I only ever talk about my own experiences (then again, talking to guys actually is my own experience), but I was attacked by Darque for a statement which was based solely on my personal experience, and your and Jim’s attacks were based on the premise that Darque had a right to dismiss my statements and that I was not showing the proper respect for men by not letting him get away with it. In that context, yes, I was referring to my own experiences at least as much as the person I was accused of attacking.
“Don’t make sweeping generalizations or attacks upon whole classes of men, stick an “in my experience,” or “I know this guy who,” before it, and expect it to be treated with the deference reserved for actual personal experiences.”
I did. Darque didn’t, Jim didn’t, and you didn’t, especially not when referring to me. The statement which started it all was based on my experiences only. I didn’t say “in my experience” because I figured it would be obvious. After all, if every guy who said that being physically desired could be a good thing had to always make it clear that they were speaking from personal experience only, most of their statements would be invalid.
“But let’s play along with what you’re saying.”
I don’t want to play with you. I never did, I only answered because you made a personal attack on me and came up with a bunch of accusations about my moral character, which not only weren’t relevant to the discussion, but also didn’t seem rooted so much in the actual conversation you were commenting on (which I gave directions to) as in your wish to see misandry everywhere. If you keep it up, I’ll probably answer you back until the mods ban the discussion, but only because I’m disgusted with your accusations.
I have no intention of standing trial for you. You can take as many unconnected and out-of-context statements from me, from old conversations whose context I can barely recall any more, as you want to. But I’m not going through even more old posts of mine to provide context which you didn’t bother to look up, and as long as you have not even responded to my comments about why I think Darque was dismissing my experiences, but have just made up new attacks, I’m not going to play along.
“I don’t want to play with you. I never did, I only answered because you made a personal attack on me and came up with a bunch of accusations about my moral character…”
That’s a real Greek drama you’ve got going in your head there. Frame it as “personal attacks” if you wish, and keep playing the victim. I as well as others am upset with you because you make misandrist statements such as the one I highlighted in my previous post, and we come off a bit harshly, then so be it. The problem is not your position, otherwise someone like Jessica would have gotten the same reception that you have. The problem is that your obvious hostility to men comes out in million little ways in every wall of text you post, and it leaves us unwilling to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I was not responding to your conversation with Darque – whatever’s between the two of you stays between the two of you. I was responding to the poisonous influence you were being by attacking the characters of men in damn near every post – and the specific snide attack I chose to use as an example happened to occur while you were responding to him. But it’s otherwise immaterial.
Wow, I get 6 direct name mentions, and a sentence about how much of a sexist jerk I am for a post that I made halfway upthread.
Not to mention that I was simply defending my opinion.
Let’s try this on for size: You said “and I know for a fact that your disagreement that the less physical way of being found sexy can be appealing is untrue”
I am repeating this again because I’m incredulous that you could find a disagreement with an opinion untrue.
I said (and I will continue to say) that guys who value a woman only for her looks are generally sexist assholes. I agreed with you that the kind of objectification and marginalization that you experienced sucks.
But when I also make the point that I feel men are not, perhaps, considered as attractive as they should be, you decided to say that my disagreement was unfactual .
Well no duh! It’s not factual because it’s an opinion. An opinion that a lot of other guys in this thread share. An opinion forged out of being treated like a fucking atm or a ________ where that ________ does not include “sexy human being”.
I don’t mind being a financial support for someone I care about. But when I’m treated as this to the exclusion of feeling attractive, it very much dampens the mood in a relationship. This has been the quintessence of what I’ve been saying in every post. Yet somehow, I’m the bad guy.
I’m not gonna say anything about your posts, your character or anything else. You’re a wonderful person. All I’m going to say is a.) leave the strawman with the big bold letters “DARQUE” which you have set on fire and have been beating up on with a baseball bat. Out. Of. The . Thread.
@Darque says:
“Let’s try this on for size: You said “and I know for a fact that your disagreement that the less physical way of being found sexy can be appealing is untrue”
I am repeating this again because I’m incredulous that you could find a disagreement with an opinion untrue.”
Your opinion was relating to a fact. It is a FACT that the less physical way of being found sexy can be appealing. I know this fact because I have had guys be sexually interested in me for reasons other than my looks, and it was a good feeling. I’ve also experienced plenty of people reacting positively to it, which is a strong indication that they find it appealing too, but I based that sentence on my own experience.
You acted as if I had somehow said that it must always be appealing for everyone no matter the context, but that is not what the actual statement says. The words “CAN be appealing” are right there. You can’t dismiss that statement on the grounds that you have a penis, which was basically what you did. Just because you can get away with it doesn’t make it OK, you were essentially dismissing my experiences by disagreeing that the option I mentioned was even possible, on the grounds of my sex (or rather, yours), which is the same behaviour you (and Jim and pocketjacks) accused me of engaging in.