Social Justice Part Fish: Gender Egalitarianism

Every oppression, like an unhappy family, is oppressive in its own way. Each is a unique snowflake of kyriarchal crap.

One of the ways that gender is unique, as an axis of oppression, is that it is one of the few forms that totally sucks for everyone. As a white person, I can inform you that I have never actually had a disadvantage noticeably related to the color of my skin. As an upper-middle-class person, neither having health insurance nor my parents being able to retire sometime this century have left me in a particularly marginalized position.

But gender roles just fuck it up for everyone. 

 
Shown: gender roles fucking it up for everyone.

That’s why I believe we have to have feminism and masculism.

Feminism is the movement for gender liberation primarily focused on women. Feminism’s focus on women is a good thing. For one thing, a lot of the most pressing issues during the second wave in America were primarily women’s issues: sex-segregated Help Wanted ads, company policies that kept women out of top-paying jobs by forbidding them to lift more than 35 pounds, facilities that refused admittance or service to women, rules that forbid women from getting credit cards in their own name. Prioritizing those issues was a smart move, politically, and often benefited men as a side effect– say hi, paternity leave and stricter rape laws!

Fortunately, a lot of the glaring inequalities between men and women have been corrected. (Not all of them, but a lot.) We still have the gender liberation movement primarily focused on women, though, which is excellent. Because we still have way too few movies that pass the Bechdel Test, and the idea that a woman’s worth is defined by her hotness, and that damn Mississippi Personhood amendment, and so it’s nice to have a movement that’s focused on ending that shit.

On the other hand, we also have problems for men: they’re far more likely to die on the job than women, and are the vast majority of deaths in the military, and often have their rapes or abuse downplayed, and have their roles as fathers to their children devalued, and are less likely to get custody of their children, and so on and so forth. However, there is only a very small movement for gender equality focused on men, and quite a lot of it is under the impression that Amanda Marcotte is the single worst enemy, bar none, that men face today.

We need masculism.  

I also like the term “gender egalitarian”, as an overarching umbrella term for feminists, masculists and other people concerned with gender. For the purposes of this blog, I’m defining gender egalitarian as a person who believes that the genders are more far similar than they are different, that gender roles should be eliminated and that such ideas as killing off 80% of men or replacing all women with sexbots are both stupid and evil. Gender egalitarianism, as a term, is cool for a couple of reasons:

First, it reminds us that we’re all far more similar than we are different. Whatever my political differences with Feminist Critics or Sady Doyle, we are all generally on the same side. Feminism, masculism and related movements (such as “hey, how about we not discriminate against trans people for employment?” or “for Christ’s sake, can we queers just get married already?”) have intertwined goals. Even if we have different foci, victory conditions look the same for all of us. You can’t liberate women without liberating men; you can’t liberate men without liberating women. If you try, you’ll only end up with a bunch of women coming home from work to a second shift taking care of children and doing household chores, because the men still won’t fucking do them if it makes you a sissy to pick up a dishrag.  

Also, the concept of gender egalitarianism allows us to simultaneously condemn and recognize the importance of certain people in the beginnings of our movements. For instance, consider Mary Daly. Her work was of tremendous importance to feminist theology: she also compared trans people to Frankenstein’s monsters, suggested that the male population ought to be reduced to 10% and was called out by no less a light than Audre Lorde for her racism. It’s dishonest in the extreme to kick Mary Daly out of feminism: she identified and was identified as a feminist and concepts she came up with are still used in feminist theology. More importantly, just saying she’s not a feminist because she’s a racist, transphobic, misandric asshat means that we won’t face up with and engage with the racism, transphobia and misandry in the feminist movement even today.  

Fortunately, there is a solution here! Mary Daly was a feminist, yes, but she was not a gender egalitarian feminist. She was part of feminism-the-political-movement, sure, but she was sadly mistaken, blinded by her prejudices, about its overall and eventual goals.

(Digression: yes, trans rights are an integral part of gender egalitarianism. If you deny someone the right to be taken as the gender they identify as, you are saying they cannot do particular actions (be referred to by certain pronouns, have certain surgeries), simply because of the bits they were born with. That’s… not very gender-egalitarian.)

A similar process can be used about many masculist (defined broadly, as “the movement for gender liberation focused on men”) people. The Spearhead is certainly masculist, but it’s not gender egalitarian masculist, and therefore its commenters should not be held against people who do not actually hate women.

I think gender egalitarianism is, ultimately, an aspirational thing. We all have bits of sexist shit floating around in our subconsciouses, courtesy of the society we grew up in; anyone who says they treat the genders perfectly equally all the time is lying. But as the wise man once said, “try again, fail again, fail better.” Right now, our society is in the “fail better” stage of fighting sexism, and that’s really, really good.

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196 Responses to Social Justice Part Fish: Gender Egalitarianism

  1. Blackhumor says:

    So, we’re taking back that old Dr.Mindbeam post that kicked out Mary Daly? Shame. Even since Ozy’s Law implies she had to have been a crappy feminist in addition to being a crappy person?

    I think we actually should be EXTENDING that to MRAs, by retroactively kicking out the vast majority of them for being unapologetically misogynistic. But then, that post kicking out Mary Daly was kind of inspired by me (I think), so maybe I’m biased.

  2. DysgraphicProgrammer says:

    It’s not that Ozy’s letting Mary Daly back in, it’s more like Ozy is clarifying what we kicked her out OF. It always seemed silly to me to kick her out of feminism. It introduces definitional squabbles. But she is sure as heck not Gender Egalitarian. That we can all agree on.

    re: killing off all of men and replacing all women with sexbots

    I seem to recall reading a science fiction book where they did both. It didn’t turn out well.

  3. ballgame says:

    With allowance for some ‘terminological’ translations, we appear to be on the same page, broadly speaking, ozy.

  4. f. says:

    This is great, and would save everyone a lot of No-True-Scotsman fallacy abuse.

  5. Uncalledfor says:

    “we also have problems for men: they’re far more likely to die on the job than women, and are the vast majority of deaths in the military, and often have their rapes or abuse downplayed, and have their roles as fathers to their children devalued, and are less likely to get custody of their children, and so on and so forth.”

    Time for a visit to Sesame Street: which important things are not on this list? (and so presumably relegated to the infinitely stretchable “so on and so forth”; except, not). Hint: imagine the man who’s not in the military, not yet a father, isn’t in a dangerous job and has never been abused and doesn’t expect to be; in short, about 80% — ? — of college-age men. What are the most important gender-roles-related problems that they face?

    If your leading answer is still “He’ll be teased if he tries to go into musical theater”, then you are not only still on Mars, your rocket ship to Earth is still on the drawing board.

  6. Improbable Joe says:

    It is tough, because even talking about the problems from a men’s perspective is looked down on. And because there aren’t spaces for it, men tend to wind up commenting in feminist spaces and immediately attacked as trolls and misogynists. Of course, that impression is understandable, since so many of the men who are vocal about men’s issues actually are misogynists who see things as a zero sum game and can only feel good as men by tearing down women.

    Then you throw in LGBT stuff, all the complexities of gender beyond the straight male/female roles, race and class issues, and it is just a disaster trying to even start having conversations. I’m sure there’s one couple out there who are ‘perfectly normal and average” by societal standards, and the other 99.9999999% of us are struggling with unfair expectations of some sort or another. Egalitarianism is good for everyone, even the people who are best suited for more traditional roles.

  7. monkey says:

    I don’t particularly like the terms Feminism or Masculism. I do like Gender Egalitarian, but I think it should be that full-stop.

  8. Schala says:

    It’s dishonest in the extreme to kick Mary Daly out of feminism: she identified and was identified as a feminist and concepts she came up with are still used in feminist theology. More importantly, just saying she’s not a feminist because she’s a racist, transphobic, misandric asshat means that we won’t face up with and engage with the racism, transphobia and misandry in the feminist movement even today.

    I don’t know, but ballgame is constantly ‘kicked out’ of feminism by even moderate feminists like Barry Deutsch, because he criticizes feminist ideas.

    Why would Mary Daly have a pass when she advocated for gendercide and getting rid of trans women? Seems like it criticizes feminist ideas (equality) way more than someone who wants DV to be more recognized for male victims. Because advocating for a sort of eugenism is not that feminist. It’s extremely right-wing.

  9. Vejuz says:

    I really have nothing to add, because I feel you’ve captured what I feel are my core beliefs beautifully. I’ve always been a Gender Egalitarian first and foremost, with Feminism and Masculism representing more or less half of the greater whole. I honestly wouldn’t feel comfortable holding one or the other exclusively, nor holding one in higher regard than the other*.

    Tangentially, I think Improbable Joe brings up a good point about male perspectives being looked down upon and even shunned in many feminist spaces. Recently, I got into an argument with a feminist on male characters in video games. Her argument was basically that there are so many male characters in video games because men are the ‘default’ gender. My counter argument was basically that in violent games, the ubiquity of male characters could be due, in part, to the Disposable Male paradigm. You tend to see many more female characters in non-violent games. From there, the debate descended mostly into her trying to invalidate the language I’d used. (Disposable Male paradigm apparently somehow suggests that men don’t spread it….which I refuted, but with the caveat that women spread it as well. Also, she attempted to tell me that misandry wasn’t real – There is only PHMT**.)

    I was recently reviewing the conversation in hind sight, and I realized….we were arguing the same point from different perspectives. We were both arguing, basically, that we wanted to see more female characters in games, even as mooks***. But we were arguing from different paradigms; She was focusing on how it effects women, I was focusing on both but arguing mostly for men since she had the female half pretty well covered. But it’s the same damn issue, just from a female perspective vs a male perspective****. You can tell this is the case because our solution is more or less the same; more women in video games please!

    I think when Feminism or Masculism fails hardest is when they fail to ask themselves “How will/does this indirectly effect the people who are not directly effected?” and “Does this directly effect more than the just the group I’ve already identified as effected?” These questions should be asked both the problems and the solutions.

    *At least, on the Ideals level. My favor tends to shift in the communities of one or the other depending on which has annoyed me less recently.
    ** although, to her credit, she did not use this highly condescending acronym.
    *** For those unfamiliar: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mooks
    **** Or, more accurately, Patriarchal Theory vs Egalitarian Kyriarchal Theory

  10. fannie says:

    Maybe people can clarify what it even means to “kick someone out of feminism (or masculism).” Like, is there some sort of governing body I don’t know about that gets to be the arbiter of who is and isn’t a real feminist?

    I just find the concept of kicking people out of social movements curious, which is why I appreciate that ozy was very clear limiting her definition of gender egalatarianism to what it means at this particular blog (as opposed to, like, the whole entire world).

    Regardless of how a person is defined as a feminist, masculist, or gender egalatarian, I think hir work should stand or fall on its own merits.

  11. ozymandias42 says:

    Uncalledfor: The phrasing of your question is rather dishonest: I have no idea why masculism should be focusing on four rather unrepresentative years, as opposed to the entire lifespan of a man. Also, the framing of the question as “college-age men” instead of an alternative, such as “young adult men”, erases the three-quarters of men who don’t go to college.

    That said, as it happens, I am a college student and I have two college-age men right outside my door. One of them reported “not being masculine enough, because people still tease me for that”; one of them said “I don’t know,” pondered the question for about half an hour and reported that he couldn’t see any way that he had suffered because of his gender, really, except that he guessed that his occasional dry spells were kind of sucky. Given that he was reporting this while snuggling with two naked women, I’m not sure how credible you want to make his testimony. 🙂

    When another college-age man wakes up, I shall ask him the same question! In the name of SCIENCE!

  12. Solo says:

    @Uncalledfor
    Could you enlighten us with a list?

  13. ozymandias42 says:

    fannie: “Kick out of feminism” is, I suppose, a more dramatic way of phrasing “do not consider a feminist (despite their self-identification as such).” For instance, Sarah Palin is regularly kicked out of feminism. 🙂

  14. Schala says:

    I regularly kick TERFs out of feminism, but have no authority or credibility to the eyes of those it would concern sometimes. People who gave up on doing what I try to do have started Womanism and trans-feminism.

  15. I can’t quite use the word “masculist”–until people have a more well-developed sense of what it means, and accept the meaning you have given here. Right now, the term is used by too many MRAs to make it comfortable for me. Also, most people simply aren’t familiar with it; it can sound like you are saying men need to be “more masculine” or something, and that certainly isn’t what I think should happen. But I have NEVER heard the word used in real life, for instance, only here in Blogdonia, so I am not ready to be the first, I have enough political-explaining going on to take on still another explaining-task (that I am not really ready for).

    As I wrote some time ago, it isn’t just Daly, but the Dalyites. In comments HERE
    http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2010/01/mary-daly-1928-2010.html
    I compared her to Ayn Rand (whom I called by her original name in the thread-comments)… is it really all Ayn, or is it the Randoids? (What does it mean when certain heavy-thinkers have such obnoxious followers? I think we react to the followers even more than the thinkers themselves, since it is their followers who invariably foist their words on us as Gospel.)

    Besides Daly, Margaret Sanger is another “problem”–she was a eugenicist and racist, but yes, it was NICE for women to have birth control for the first time in HISTORY! I also appreciate the way she told the Church to fuck off, but then again, much of that translated into “We have to keep these low class Italian/Irish/Mexican women from having so many babies!”…. like you say, the good and bad can easily blend together, and right before your eyes.

  16. I just realized I was still a Catholic when I wrote that obit. Nonetheless, I have not changed my opinion.

    Off topic, kinda sorta: Do not want to derail, but for a future thread, Ozy and other atheists might consider how we might support women in various religions who fight for equal rights within those religions. Or do you think it is unprincipled to support them at all? This was once the argument within leftist-feminism about the military… and the leftist GLBT community recently had the issue again with Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. If we think an institution is basically unethical and/or bad, or is currently doing a bad thing/supporting bad causes, can we support the people seeking equality WITHIN this institution? This is the question regarding support of women priests or women imams… is it a GOOD thing, at base? I have to say, I dunno, which is why I think it would make a good thread, especially from an atheist. I count on the atheists to keep us starry eyed woo types on the straight and narrow!

  17. ozymandias42 says:

    Uncalledfor: The third boy woke up and announced that “gendered expectations” were his biggest problem with being male! So I think I would say that oppressive masculine gender roles are probably the biggest problem that college-age men face?

    Daisy: I believe that making oppressive institutions less oppressive is a net gain. It is not impossible to simultaneously think that religion ought to wither away and die, and that while it’s here we might as well make it cause the least suffering possible, the same way that Marxists can support the eventual withering away of capitalism and also work for strong unions and higher minimum wages and shit.

  18. noahbrand says:

    @Solo: It’s Uncalledfor. He’s going to say inability to get laid as much as they want. He kinda only knows one song.

    I do empathize; the related feelings of unattractiveness and worthlessness are pretty awful, and can really get down into your brain in bad ways. I wouldn’t call it the worst problem men face, but I’m not Uncalledfor.

  19. Uncalledfor says:

    I wouldn’t call it the worst problem men face, but I’m not Uncalledfor.

    Interesting, NB; what would you say is the worst problem? Keeping in line with the OP, what do you think is the worst/most severe gender-related problem faced by single, childless, never-married men? (This is not to say that non-single men don’t also have problems! but some of those were already mentioned in the OP and here I’m talking about what’s missing from the OP). Can you name something that is, simultaneously, (1) widespread, ie affects a large number of men in the main, not just small minorities; (2) serious, ie impacts their lives in an important way; and (3) concrete/specific, ie “gender expectations” or “pressure to be masculine” are way too vague, which doesn’t make them unreal but ropes in way too much; for the problems you’re thinking of, what are the specific, discernible and nameable hardships or deprivations it causes?

    I’m curious for your answer. If you don’t have one (as Ozy clearly doesn’t) then it’s hard to take this “masculist” business all that seriously.

  20. Blackhumor says:

    @Ozy: I can third that; not that I’m unbiased, but definitely for this college-age man the expectation to be masculine is the biggest drawback.

    Luckily, it’s an expectation that I can often ignore without consequence! It’s much worse when you’re a kid; then you kind of have to go along with the bullies. Once you’re an adult you can just say “fuck ’em”, for the most part. Still can’t wear skirts or anything (lucky for me I don’t particularly want to) but I’m doing pretty well with super-long hair and no musculature to speak of.

  21. noahbrand says:

    @Uncalledfor: It’s gracious of you to concede that I called your theory so accurately. I respect that.

    As to the worst single problem, that’s not necessarily even a fair question, as it requires separating problems into discrete sets when, in practice, they’re not really separate. I could say “performative masculinity” as others have, or I could say “emotional repression”, but those are really too entangled to be separated. Repressing emotions is an integral part of performing masculinity.

    One of my particular hobbyhorses is the Success Myth, I admit. I think the notion of men as success objects is perhaps the most pervasively damaging sexist assumptions in our society today, but even there it’s tricky. Would the Success Myth be so harmful if it didn’t come coupled with the notion of masculinity as competition? Indeed, is one a subset of the other? Certainly the Success Myth might lead to fewer suicides if it weren’t also bundled with emotional repression.

    Regardless, I’d consider all of the above to be worse problems than suffering from dry spells, though again, I don’t say that to minimize the pain and feelings of worthlessness that dry spells can give rise to.

  22. Chelsea says:

    @Uncalledfor: with respect, the conditions you place on responses that will sufficiently convince you of the validity of the masculist perspective are rather derailing. (See also: http://derailingfordummies.com/#represent and http://derailingfordummies.com/#sensitive) The absence of a single, specific problem that will resonate with the majority of men is a red herring, I think, especially when we take into account that the myriad issues that are all attributable to the same thing — that is to say, sexism/misandry/gender inequality. Let’s say sexism manifests in Moe’s life as biased custody battles while it manifests in Chen’s life as disbelief in his sexual assault, while it manifests in Brian’s life as the suspicion (and thereby decreased income) he faces in his chosen profession as a child care provider. Just because Brian has never been raped and Chen has never faced workplace discrimination doesn’t mean they aren’t facing the same problem, and your insistence on that point strikes me as willful disbelief.

    It makes me sad that you feel that an issue must affect the majority before you will consider it valid (as per your condition 1). As far as I am concerned, one man having experienced discrimination due to his gender is too many, and that one instance merits having conversations about it. Because you never know who else will come out with a similar experience. And it makes me sad that you feel comfortable judging what qualifies as a serious matter (as per your condition 2). The loss of a relationship because of gendered romantic expectations may not seem serious to you, but to someone battling perpetual rejection it could be catastrophic. Something that would not greatly impact me might seriously impact my neighbour. It also makes me sad that you require issues to adhere to some sort of non-specified standard of specificity (as per your condition 3). As far as I am concerned, one man feeling weighed down by the constant pressure to “be a man” is too many.

    I will say that from the years I spent working with university students (undergraduates, mostly), I can say that both the dismissal of addiction, and the commonality of assault (both sexual and non-sexual) are significant and vastly under-reported problems. Widespread, serious, and specific. And from my current work in white-collar environments I can say with absolute certainty that the Communications and HR industries are biased against men in terms of recruiting and retention. This has huge implications when taken into account with the current state of the world economy and the pressure on men to be high-earners.

  23. Schala says:

    Anybody else sees tons of male wrappers and female cashiers in grocery stores? I bet some of them choose their position…and others have it imposed on them with a “But it’s a physical job, it’s not feminine” or the chivalric argument “Do the physical job to impress the women, don’t let them do it themselves and maybe hurt themselves”.

    Please do note that my mother, a pretty open person of 53, believes in the argument that physical jobs are unfeminine and thus not jobs she would consider or have considered. As for me, well, I physically can’t do it to the extent that they ask for (I ended up being fired for underperformance).

    Note that no one offered me a cashier or a clerk or a computer data-entry job pre-transition, I was supposed to lift crates even if I weighed 100 lbs wet. And if I couldn’t, I just had to ‘eat more’ and ‘man up’.

  24. Aside: And now I learn I am older than Schala’s mother. Did I really need to know that? (sigh)

    A reply to Uncalled For: the touch-starvation that we have discussed on this forum, seems something that most single men (of all ages) deal with, according to the comments. I know a massage therapist who says this is the real reason massages are big business now. She thinks it is worse than ever before, since in the past, single men could always touch children (usually in play or giving piggyback rides, etc) who were neighbors or nephews or something… and now such behavior is suspect.

    I started thinking about how much I loved my affectionate uncles as a child, and how much I loved my piggyback rides and being thrown up in the air for fun. 😦 If such things are suspect now, that is a real loss for everyone concerned.

  25. Jay Generally says:

    I’ve largely got to agree with Daisy. If I feel dishonest labeling myself a feminist because the definition gets a bit misty and shadowy around the edges, and really I’d like to see more objective, concrete evidence of my contribution to said ideals (attending rallies, raising awareness, etc.), and my claiming the term even offends some people who claim the title with much more vehemence than I would; then I’d feel double dishonest with ‘masculist.’ But like ‘feminist’ it doesn’t hurt my feelings if someone else happens to label me such because they saw something I did or a mindset I held as contributive to whatever they think those terms meant. In the right circumstances I’d be flattered, but I find people tend to label in order to libel, more often than not. A categorization is as much a prison as any other small confining space, I suppose.

    I’d also concur with noah about the Success Myth being the real killer, if that means anything, especially since it rather covers everything rather well, particularly the Disposable Male. (A male victim deserves his fate because a real man would have succeeded in averting it, sort of logic.) I can’t even think of a way to completely divorce any other form of masculine targetting oppression from it.

  26. Improbable Joe says:

    Obviously, the worst thing that college-age men* face is the draft… OMG, we’re all off to Vietnam!!! They’re going to put a rifle in my hand, send me off to a foreign land, and then I’m going to come home and the hiring man’s going to say “son, if it was up to me,” and then something somewhat unclear about a penitentiary… yeah, that’s the worst thing we face.

    *I’m 37, but I’ve gone back to college, so do I count**?

    **Not for the draft, mind you… I’ve already served a voluntary hitch.

  27. davenj says:

    @Uncalledfor

    “Can you name something that is, simultaneously, (1) widespread, ie affects a large number of men in the main, not just small minorities; (2) serious, ie impacts their lives in an important way; and (3) concrete/specific, ie “gender expectations” or “pressure to be masculine” are way too vague, which doesn’t make them unreal but ropes in way too much; for the problems you’re thinking of, what are the specific, discernible and nameable hardships or deprivations it causes?”

    Yes. The Success Myth/Expectation, full stop. That boys grow up with expectations about their future economic success, and that society maintains that pressure up until age ~66, is widespread, and seriously impacts the life of every man by either forcing them to buy into it or punishing them when they don’t.

    The expectation that boys will, upon achieving adulthood, work consistently until they either die or are ~66 years old, and that they will be successful enough at this work to provide for themselves at the very least (and often more), has a major impact on their lives, starting as early as pre-school.

    So with that (wholly unreasonable) expectation of yours out of the way, what now?

  28. Hugh Ristik says:

    UncalledFor, I don’t think we need to give people here a test on gender politics. Let’s just tell them the answers. I’m not sure what you think are the biggest issues affecting college men, but I’ll tell you one of the biggest one I know of:

    Colleges routinely discriminate against men’s due process rights in cases of sexual harassment and sexual assault. (well, due process for everyone is hurt, but there is special bias towards men). And sadly, second wave feminist activists are partially responsible. Yet things have gotten so bad that some feminists are starting to stand up against the discrimination.

    Here is a report from a feminist who served on a disciplinary panel (emphasis mine):

    We break men and women up into two different groups and go over the code. Each time I have participated in this, students have peppered me with lots of questions, in particular, the women have pointed out that the examples taught of sexual misconduct are always men preying on drunk women. And, they wonder if this code puts the onus on the boy to get verbal consent rather than the woman. I have never had a satisfactory answer to this. The last two levels of sexual misconduct–(3) physical contact of a sexual nature that results in reasonable apprehension of a sexual assault or physical harm and (4) coerced sexual activities, including rape–have often struck many of the young women students that I am educating as likely to find only men guilty of sexual misconduct rather than women. I wasn’t sure I necessarily agreed, until I sat through my own Student Conduct Review Board (SCRB) hearing. During that hearing, where two students, who had been dating, engaging in regular sexual activity (except intercourse), the female student was in no way found responsible for violating the sexual misconduct policy, even though she admitted to initiating much of the activity, nor had she gotten his verbal consent at any point of the sexual experience.

    Yeoch.

    I used to get annoyed by male students who would tell me that their deepest fear is to be falsely accused of rape. I would point out to them, over and over again, how rarely women who were raped go forward. I pointed out how horrific rape cases are for victims. And all of that is true. But, then I saw first hand my first false accusation case. And, I learned exactly why men are terrified by false accusations. I don’t think that they occur alot. Nor, do I think that this problem is more pressing than actual rapes (don’t put me PLEASE in the MRA camp!). But, it is a fact that we have created college policies and employment policies that make it easy to get an accused off campus or off the work premises without any real investigation. Once a student is accused, his reputation is forever ruined; there is no innocence until proven guilty.

    Here are some particular cases:

    A male student at the University of North Dakota was banned from campus after a sexual assault accusation that the local police department considered false. It took over a year and a lot of legal battling for the school to let him back.

    At Stanford, a male student was found guilty of sexual assault when both people were intoxicated, due to a ridiculous and legally inaccurate policy with a broad definition of “intoxication.”

    To make the nightmare even worse, the training materials for disciplinary jurors at Stanford are blatantly biased against men, and written in language that genders abusers as male:

    Plus, the campus panel that heard the case had been “trained” using documents boldly proclaiming that “everyone should be very, very cautious in accepting a man’s claim that he has been wrongly accused of abuse or violence” and that one indication of an abuser is that he will “act persuasive and logical.”

    At Franklin and Marshall College, the administrators can punish you if they think an accusation is credible, and according to their policy, they don’t have to give you a hearing unless they want to. Despite the fact that expelling or suspending or expelling students without a hearing is illegal. Of course, this policy undermines the rights of both men and women, but it’s probably more likely to be abused against men.

    Duke still hasn’t learned, and holds a blatant disdain for due process in its sexual misconduct policy:

    “Duke’s new sexual misconduct policy could have been written by Mike Nifong,” said FIRE Vice President Robert Shibley. “Members of the men’s basketball team could be punished for consensual sexual activity simply because they are ‘perceived’ as more powerful than other students after winning the national championship. Students who engage in sexual behavior after a few beers could be found guilty of sexual misconduct towards each other.

    Here is a more detailed writeup of the problems with college sexual misconduct policies, and how they harm accused students (mostly men, but not always), and sometimes even harm accusers.

    The policies sound like the fantasies of second wave feminists… but they are real, and college men are especially vulnerable to having their education and reputation harmed without due process. Even though I doubt these policies represent the views of feminists in general (plenty of whom are flabbergasted when they find out, like the feminist in my first link), somehow, second wave feminist activists managed to sneak them in, aided by chivalrous men, and college administrators trying to save their own asses.

  29. SpudTater says:

    > One of the ways that gender is unique, as an axis of oppression, is that it is one of the few forms that totally sucks for everyone.

    I respectfully disagree. Any form of oppression is based on stereotypes, and stereotypes hurt everybody who doesn’t conform. Let’s take a trivial example: a widespread modern stereotype holds that black men are good dancers, but that white men only ever succeed in looking ridiculous. This is of course a self-fulfilling prophecy; a white and black man performing exactly the same moves to the same will be viewed through a different lens; the former will be mocked, the latter admired.

    But of course, what’s success in dancing, compared to the serious problems that black people face in America and Europe? Less career prospects, police suspicion, racist slurs and outright attacks? Say “racism hurts white people too”, and you’ll be laughed at at best.

    However, the situation with regards to gender is not, essentially, any different. I don’t think any of the writers of this blog would argue that women have the same career prospects or political power that men do, nor that gendered violence is anything like as much of a danger for men as it is for women.

    Certainly, men have problems being accepted as child-rearers, or problems seeing themselves as desirable, or problems with being expected to live up to macho expectations. And these are serious problems that deserve to be talked about, and which I have talked about with gusto on this blog. But fundamentally our society is — like most other societies before it — one that oppresses women. All other gender problems spring from this.

    This is why I don’t describe myself as a masculist, but a feminist. I mean, I’ve suffered from gendered bullshit too, and I want to fight against it for my own happiness and the happiness of all those like me — which is most men, in one way or another — but the root of all this shit is that our culture does not value or respect women. That’s what I want to fix. That’s why I’m a feminist.

  30. ML says:

    @noahbrand and @Uncalledfor:

    Isn’t there a significant overlap between Noah’s hobbyhorse, the Success Myth, and Uncalledfor’s, the “getting-laid-is-too-hard problem”?

    “Success” is often measured not only in monetary terms, but in the quality of partners one can attract. Noah sorta brushed past this a couple of posts ago, when he talked about looking at one’s partner appreciatively and thinking “at least I got *that* going for me”.

    College – and I think it’s significant that college was brought up – is a peculiar sort of environment. Nobody is earning, so success is not measured by earning power, but the pressure to achieve it remains. Without money, other things – such as sporting prowess, grades, and in particular romantic/sexual success – assume much greater importance. I can’t speak for the non-college experience, but I would imagine that it’s at least part of the cocktail. The pervasive idea of “showing off to your mates about how hot your girlfriend is” (hello, objectification) is evidence of this.

    Thus, a good chunk of the frustration of the involuntarily single/celibate young man is probably to do not just with sexual frustration, but the pain of missing the social standards of studliness. Like monetary success, this is an often publicly-visible “achievement” (given the convention of male pursuit etc) which has a major impact on social status, and which we’ve set up such that it *hurts* not to get it.

    I doubt Uncalledfor will be hugely comfortable with this – I suspect he’d far rather talk about ways of having more sex than about ways of changing society so that men do not feel (or get treated as) worthless for not doing so. But, to take the economic comparison, one can simultaneously attempt to “raise living standards” (all-round sexual liberation = a good thing, sez I) and also talk about our attitudes to uneven distribution (this comment).

    And I’m going to stop here, but not without noting that the “sex as currency” thing has been done before, often with quite scuzzy/misogynistic/misandristic implications, and that I don’t mean any of these.

  31. Schala says:

    but the root of all this shit is that our culture does not value or respect women. That’s what I want to fix. That’s why I’m a feminist.

    That’s where I’ll disagree.

    Our culture values women, but disrespects them. And our culture respects men (who do stuff anyways), but does not value them.

    A woman is only valuable alive, a man can sacrifice his life to gain value… but too bad he won’t benefit from it afterwards, only his family (if any) will.

    Society oppresses both men and women, in rather systemic ways for both. Men’s oppression is not a side-effect of a willful oppression of women. It’s “as-designed”, a parlance used in videogame testing when questioning wether a certain game feature is a bug or is supposed to be that way…like Snow White having a voice very similar to a 3 years old girl in a Zippity (Leapfrog) Disney game.

    Apparently, her voice is as designed, it represents the voice of the original 1937 singer, who had such a high childish-soprano voice.

  32. Geo says:

    I find it ironic – that you Oxy – a young woman are able to seemingly reach a lot of (often) young men and get at their issues with incredible insights. With all the debates back and forth about – “women are” or “women are not” a major part of the problems faced by us as men, we really do relatively little sharing our “real” lives with other men.

    With how much things have changed in recent years and decades I would hope and think that we might be able to say: “Aha, talking with other men doesn’t make me Gay” – when we are Het. Similarly, I would think we could learn that exposing our feelings to other men wouldn’t need to lead to putdowns and “losing face”.

    Unfortunately anger, often directed at women, has seemed so far to be the only unifying force for organizing and focusing upon men’s issues (besides the Mythopoetics and those who embrace Feminism).

    I would hope that the insights that you are sharing and how you help some of us in thinking about our issues might reach some of us to the point that we would seek out and find other men both locally and online to really begin to open up with and move forward with in our lives.

    I doubt that things have changed that much in the research findings that at least older single men are the unhappiest amongst up and single women are amongst the happiest. We do need to learn much better how to take care of ourselves and find support amongst men. When we do that we will, I think, find that we can have better and happier relationships with women.

    Thanks!

  33. Danny says:

    One of the ways that gender is unique, as an axis of oppression, is that it is one of the few forms that totally sucks for everyone.
    I think Ozy may have been trying to point out that unlike most other forms of oppression gender is not a day/night difference between the two sides involved.

    SpudTater:
    But fundamentally our society is — like most other societies before it — one that oppresses women. All other gender problems spring from this.
    And I think this is what she is saying at work (i think). This attitude that while some things suck for men when it comes to gender oppression women are the ultimate victims of everything. Personally I disagree with the idea that all gender problems come from oppressing women, if for no other reason than this reasoning treats oppression of men not as a feature of a system meant to keep us all down for its own sake (because contrary to popular belief the powers at the top aren’t looking out for men as a class, they are looking out for themselves and will mow down any man, woman, child, etc… to keep it) but instead treats it like a side effect or collateral damage of the “real” goal of oppressing women.

    This is why I don’t describe myself as a masculist, but a feminist. I mean, I’ve suffered from gendered bullshit too, and I want to fight against it for my own happiness and the happiness of all those like me — which is most men, in one way or another — but the root of all this shit is that our culture does not value or respect women. That’s what I want to fix. That’s why I’m a feminist.
    I can respect that. But respectfully speaking this is part of precisely why I won’t identify as feminist.

  34. Improbable Joe says:

    See, and this is why I don’t sweat labels so much.

    I also see the more top-down oppression of women as being part of the oppression of everyone. There’s an idea that I think I’ve heard referred to as both “bottom rung” and “last place” avoidance. Inside that idea, people can tolerate massive amounts of oppression so long as they have someone below them that they can beat up on. I’ve actually heard working class Southern whites say “at least I’m not a n*gger” as some sort of salve in bad situations. I think as a culture we’ve been trained to watch our backs and kick down at the people right below us, instead of looking and really understanding the source of our problems. A similar dehumanizing and scapegoating goes on against women as goes on against non-whites.

  35. RickyTicky says:

    Spudtater said:

    “This is why I don’t describe myself as a masculist, but a feminist. I mean, I’ve suffered from gendered bullshit too, and I want to fight against it for my own happiness and the happiness of all those like me — which is most men, in one way or another — but the root of all this shit is that our culture does not value or respect women. That’s what I want to fix. That’s why I’m a feminist.”

    Seriously? Please, then, how in the world do you feel that the very gendered nature of conscription shows how societies value men more than women? Especially considering that war has *always* been apart of human history, and still is. I’m sorry, but this oppression olympics myopic world-view in my opinion tends to *validate* erasure of male victims, because, well, they aren’t the ‘real’ victims. And it is precisely why *many* individuals, especially men, will find it *very* difficult to ever identify as a feminist – at leas if identifying as feminist means you must hold this world view (not that I believe that this is the case).

  36. Schala says:

    I’ve actually heard working class Southern whites say “at least I’m not a n*gger” as some sort of salve in bad situations. I think as a culture we’ve been trained to watch our backs and kick down at the people right below us, instead of looking and really understanding the source of our problems. A similar dehumanizing and scapegoating goes on against women as goes on against non-whites.

    I’ve heard mockery for feminine cultures like obsessing over shoes and gossiping, but never heard “At least I’m not a woman”. I’ve also heard mockery for masculine cultures like obsessing over TV sports and “appearing manly” (like Man Card etc). I also don’t think I’d hear “At least I’m not a man” outside specific circumstances (being sent to die through conscriptions, being killed on the spot in war, instead of being a refugee).

    We as a culture bash feminity as vain and useless, and bash masculinity as cruel and brutish. Nothing’s good, all’s tainted.

  37. Schala says:

    “at leas if identifying as feminist means you must hold this world view (not that I believe that this is the case).”

    According to Alas, a blog’s feminist definition, yes you must hold this worldview to be seen as a feminist (that women are more oppressed than men).

  38. Improbable Joe says:

    @Schala:

    Sure it is all bad, but it is also all of a piece. It keeps us fighting among each other instead of banding together for the good of everyone. Let’s not pretend that all of it is equal though. Women in general have it worse than men, the same way that different ethnic groups have it better or worse than others depending on the location. That doesn’t mean that every woman is magically being oppressed by every man, because that would be ridiculous.

  39. RickyTicky says:

    Schala said:

    “According to Alas, a blog’s feminist definition, yes you must hold this worldview to be seen as a feminist (that women are more oppressed than men).”

    Yeah…and it seems a rather substantial portion of feminists believe this too. Sigh. But then again, I think this type of pigeon-holing is *precisely* why there are not more self-identified feminists out there – even if much common ground could be found in other realms of feminist thought. Identity politics and oppression olympics combined are fairly counterproductive to egalitarian ideals, but I digress.

    By the way, I like the OP (to be more on topic;)). Although I do think there are some things which I believe can disqualify someone from being considered a feminist. Not being a halfway decent human is one of those things. I’m sure many people may disagree about what makes one a decent human being, but I would hope that support or even tolerance for the concept of gendercide would fall squarely into what would disqualify an individual as a decent human being for most people.

  40. Sigh.

    According to Alas, a blog’s feminist definition, yes you must hold this worldview to be seen as a feminist (that women are more oppressed than men).

    This isn’t true.

    I don’t know, but ballgame is constantly ‘kicked out’ of feminism by even moderate feminists like Barry Deutsch, because he criticizes feminist ideas.

    Also not true. (Please read the paragraph beginning “If you’d like to change my mind on this…”).

    * * *

    I pretty much agree with everything in Ozy’s post.

  41. SpudTater says:

    @RickyTicky: Simple; men have a value to the army, that’s why they’re on the front lines. Women have traditionally been seen more as a liability than an asset to the army.

    I think we’re working from slightly different definitions of “value” here, though — women seem to be valued more as objects to be protected and fought for, which disempowers them.

    I care as much about men’s issues as women’s, and I think my continued presence on this blog speaks to that. But when I say that the larger social picture is the oppression of women, I’m saying that this is the framework by which you have to understand both women’s and men’s issues.

  42. I care as much about men’s issues as women’s, and I think my continued presence on this blog speaks to that. But when I say that the larger social picture is the oppression of women, I’m saying that this is the framework by which you have to understand both women’s and men’s issues.

    Can you give me a concrete example of a policy issue that would be changed?

    I mean, I believe that sexist beliefs oppress both men and women. I’m not sure I believe that there is such a thing as “the larger social picture” — I mean, when the men of a village in a war-torn country are gathered and executed, is that part of the larger social picture? I don’t know what the appropriate measuring stick is for saying one sex is more oppressed than the other.

    But I’m also not sure it matters.

    So you believe that “the larger social picture is the oppression of women,” while I don’t. But are there any actual, specific policy differences between us as a result of our differing views? Or between you and Ozy?

  43. Schala says:

    From Barry’s blog post about the definition of feminism (linked above):

    3.Doesn’t believe that men are the primary victims of inequality and sexism.

    Point three is intended to exclude men’s rights activists and their fellow travelers. My previous definition excluded the MRAs in a slightly different way, by saying that feminists believe that sexism and inequality “on balance disadvantages women.”

    But I now think that excluded too much; although many (perhaps most) feminists think that sexism and inequality primarily oppress women, I know sincere feminists who think that both sexes are significantly oppressed by the gender binary system, and that making a “whose worse off” comparison is not a useful approach. My modified definition no longer excludes those folks, but still excludes MRAs.

    I think I can get onboard that definition, and I’m glad I was wrong, then.

    Though it still seems to have to be taken as an article of faith for many, unless one wants to be accused of misogyny.

    And @Spud

    Yes…I’m sure the only problem with women in the army is their liability…

    You know what was a problem that got talked about? That men would (and this has been observed) refuse to obey normal rules if a woman’s life (on their side) was in danger – thus putting the mission in jeopardy for possibly no good reason (unlike action movies, typical war villains just kill their enemies, they don’t have endless speeches before the heroes save the day and the damsel(s) right from under their nose).

    So women are a liability because men value their life more, *and have been taught since very young to value it more than a man’s life*. This is part of chivalry, and chivalry is usually bad because it reduces agency…but being saved and having people who would fall over themselves to save you, when in real danger…that can be nice (mind you, this comes from someone who didn’t get saved, because she wasn’t perceived as female when young – it was acceptable to physically beat me up with no intervention).

  44. JE says:

    @Spud Tater: Men are valued because they are usefull, and in fact can be sacrificed to capitalize on that usefulness and yet it’s women who are being treated as objects?

  45. D says:

    @ SpudTater

    Yes, because having a higher unemployment rate (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm), a shorter life expectancy and a higher likelihood of being the victim of a violent crime (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv10.pdf) are all exactly just like being told you can’t dance.

    And I say this as someone who agrees that women are more oppressed.

  46. Schala says:

    @D

    The game of saying that “all the problems men face are all like ‘reversed’ racism” is playing into the game of “sexism is zero-sum, and so is the help towards fixing it”.

    But this is not the case. Fixing only women’s problems won’t even achieve the aim of fixing only women’s problems. It will only appease the “help women” crowd, but it will leave subtle discrimination because fixing only one side of the equation in a dichotomous system always leave the other hanging…and when the other is hanging, they go back to the one side who is not – in short, as much as you might want to make not being a stay-at-home mom more acceptable, without the corollary of making being a stay-at-home dad more acceptable, women will still be overwhelmingly be responsible for childcare.

  47. Uncalledfor says:

    Ah, so much stuff! since my last remark. Let me start with Noah, who’s been so polite

    @Uncalledfor: It’s gracious of you to concede that I called your theory so accurately. I respect that.

    Actually I don’t see that I’ve conceded anything about my own “theories”; unless you are taking a hard-line “silence is consent” view, ie anything on which I don’t outright contradict you I have then effectively agreed with. Well, whatever floats your boat, go right ahead. It doesn’t matter, since for the purposes of this exchange I’m not originating any content; strange though it may sound, I’m much more interested in what you have to say.

    I could say “performative masculinity” as others have, or I could say “emotional repression”, but those are really too entangled to be separated. Repressing emotions is an integral part of performing masculinity.

    One of my particular hobbyhorses is the Success Myth, I admit. I think the notion of men as success objects is perhaps the most pervasively damaging sexist assumptions in our society today, but even there it’s tricky.

    I think this is a fair answer to my question above (and the same goes to davenj), in that it’s clearly something that’s both widespread and potentially serious. But I’m not quite seeing the concrete/specific part here, and that’s because I’m slow. Since you’ve thought about it so much, you have to help me out here; let me explain.

    Being but a Bear of Little Brain, I see things much more readily in terms of real-world, measurable consequences rather than other people’s imagined internal states. When you speak of something like a boy or man experiencing “pressure to be masculine” or “pressure to show success”, that’s certainly real but seems kind of nebulous to me. It won’t really make sense to me as a concrete thing until I hear about some real-world consequences, ie until you extend “he feels under pressure to act masculine” to some version of “he feels under pressure to act masculine, because he fears if he doesn’t then he will suffer X”. To me, “feeling pressure” has to involve fear of a bad consequence. So, what is X? Could be different things in different cases, of course, and the fear need not be rational to be real. But for your favorite hobbyhorse, what are you imagining as the real-world consequences? that a man fears will happen to him if he doesn’t display sufficiently well as a success object. That his friends will ridicule him? his girlfriend will leave him? his family will disown him? I’m curious to hear your thoughts along this angle.

  48. Uncalledfor says:

    And now to Chelsea:

    ” And it makes me sad that you feel comfortable judging what qualifies as a serious matter”

    Do you feel similarly saddened by Noah, for example, who also seems to feel no hesitation in judging some problems as being more serious than others? The same is true of Ozy, of course, as well as many other people who write here. Do you really think you can lead an effective life without ever passing any judgements on whether someone else’s complaint is serious or not?

    Fortunately, though, in this case it doesn’t matter! The sense of my question above remains exactly the same if you define “serious” to mean “self-identified as being serious,” so neither my judgement nor Noah’s is required to approve an example (as he has done, and so have others, including you).

    “It makes me sad that you feel that an issue must affect the majority before you will consider it valid (as per your condition 1).”

    My intent may be clearer here if you read “majoritarian” rather than strictly “majority”. Basically, my ongoing complaint with NSWATM is that Ozy never seems to care about the gender-related problems suffered by plain, vanilla straight white single men, that happen just because they are plain vanilla straight white single men, and not due to some other, specific minority circumstance (e.g. dangerous jobs, military, abuse victims, inclined toward musical theater, etc). To me, this is a strong indicator that her heart is still back in “bad old feminism,” where no one was supposed to care about the problems of vanilla straight white single men, because they were either so highly privileged, or they were the enemy, or both. Noah and some of the commenters here have done a better job of differentiating themselves from that mind-set; but to me Ozy, for all her egalitarian pretensions, still reeks of being on “team feminism” where plain, vanilla straight white men can be freely ridiculed without hesitation (witness her remarks on this very thread, which are unquestionably shitty and contemptuous; so much for caring about men).

  49. davenj says:

    “Being but a Bear of Little Brain, I see things much more readily in terms of real-world, measurable consequences rather than other people’s imagined internal states. When you speak of something like a boy or man experiencing “pressure to be masculine” or “pressure to show success”, that’s certainly real but seems kind of nebulous to me. It won’t really make sense to me as a concrete thing until I hear about some real-world consequences, ie until you extend “he feels under pressure to act masculine” to some version of “he feels under pressure to act masculine, because he fears if he doesn’t then he will suffer X”. To me, “feeling pressure” has to involve fear of a bad consequence. So, what is X? Could be different things in different cases, of course, and the fear need not be rational to be real. But for your favorite hobbyhorse, what are you imagining as the real-world consequences? that a man fears will happen to him if he doesn’t display sufficiently well as a success object. That his friends will ridicule him? his girlfriend will leave him? his family will disown him? I’m curious to hear your thoughts along this angle.”

    Tangible consequences? Sure.

    The social pressures to conform to a success/provider model start early on, when adults reinforce the model. A boy who expresses himself outside of this model will be met with silencing and shame tactics at best, and violence at worst. Note what happens when boys play with dolls: they’re not supposed to be caregivers, as it deviates from a path of economic success.

    The pressure rises from that point onward to earn money such that one can be fully autonomous at the very least, and ideally such that one can support others, too. It’s a sign of how pervasive this notion is that there are few examples of men violating it. How could a man violate this system? By being a failure in one way or another. A decent amount of these men end up in prison, as they seek the economic success required of them, but don’t have the tools to attain it legally. A significant chunk of men end up in the military/mines/other dangerous professions, risking their lives in order to generate economic value.

    Otherwise? A man is likely to face the social pressure of starvation, which is a pretty significant pressure. It is more difficult, and less encouraged, for men to get public assistance. A majority of the long-term homeless are men.

    Also, suicide. Women may attempt it more, but men are statistically more serious in their attempts, and this is borne out in the suicide fatality data.

    The bad consequences of not participating in the success system for men are castigation, marginalization, and annihilation.

    Those are some significant consequences.

  50. pocketjacks says:

    “I’ve also heard mockery for masculine cultures like obsessing over TV sports and “appearing manly” (like Man Card etc).”

    Yes, and this is exactly the type of misandry that well-intentioned sites like this can be blind to. (“Football is a brutish farce that takes no intelligence and appeals to our worst instincts. We believe men can be better than that! Who really hates men here?” *eyeroll*) For a certain vocal subset of women and their male allies, freedom for men is the freedom to be feminine and to be “less powerful”. Which are both important, of course. Feminine men are often seen as acceptable targets for violence, and while being powerful sounds nice, it can come with atavistic expectations of what “powerful” means: constrained relationships, bottled up emotions, constant failing to meet expectations, and eventually, a gun in your mouth.

    But that’s still missing the whole other side. I’m referring more to the creator of that pink-and-black letter image with the skunk-haired dude(tte) than to the OP. (I agree with the OP herself and find nothing to disagree with.) The image was clearly crafted with the best of intentions but they’re operating under some fucked up starting assumptions.

    “For every girl who is tired of acting weak when she is strong, there is a boy tired of appearing strong when he is vulnerable.”

    This is one of the least objectionable ones and there’s a large degree of truth to it; i.e., men and boys have trouble reaching out for help, which leads to the aforementioned higher suicide rates. But the thing is, many men who fall short of the kyriarchal ideal – fat men, minority men, short men, gay men, shy men, unemployed or “underemployed” men, frail-looking men – while not allowed to be weak (no man’s allowed to cry), are also not allowed to be strong, either. Or at least, strong compared to more culturally normative people, many of whom will be women (who, despite femaleness, have fewer of the above social “flaws”). If they try to do something that’s the prerogative of their social higher-ups, many will try to tear them back down to keep them in their place. What would be considered bold or decisive or evidence of leadership from another, would be considered rude, overly aggressive, overcompensating, or otherwise offputting if done by one of these men.

    Especially since the way it is said often carries the unpleasant implication that for us non-kyriarchal men, our predominant gender-related problem is that people think too highly of us. Being the president of a country is undoubtedly a very stressful job, and having its duties foisted upon you can’t be fun. To too many people, this is what they assume the burden of being male must be like – and they’ll say it as sympathetically as you please. But overwhelmingly, our experience isn’t one of being expected to be the “president” of any situation. Overwhelmingly, I’d wager the experience of more men than not is of people taking one look at them and assuming inferiority.

    “For every boy who is burdened with the constant expectation of knowing everything…”

    This one enters into seriously WTF territory for me. Seriously? Boys are underperforming at every level of education. Many people, seeing a boy and a girl of school age, will assume the boy is dumber. Being stereotypically masculine in some way can compound this in many ways, with most people nowadays associating it with stupidity.

    “For every girl who is tired of being called over-sensitive…”

    In my experience, “oversensitive” and related pejoratives are far more likely to be openly aimed at men and boys. Now, I very much believe that the notion that women are too emotional and hyper-sensitive is quite ingrained, and that they’re in all likelihood suffering from the soft bigotry of low expectations. Everyone expects women to be oversensitive, so it’s rude to say it out loud. But on the flipside, “oversensitive” or some variation is the go-to slur for men, and “insecure” in particular is very close to becoming a gendered insult.

    The rest are similar. For the sake of brevity, I’m going to omit them. I think you can get the hang of how I’d object to each one.

    I’m not saying this to say that boys have it worse across the board. As in, “everything they say boys suffer, we do, but we also suffer the ‘girl-related’ ones, so we get it bad X2!!” No, the reverse is true, too. Women and girls can get tired of appearing strong when they’re feeling vulnerable. Take every single mother who needs to be strong for her kids, or any mother or eldest daughter who needs to be the “emotional centers” of the types of families that can be heard by everyone on the block at night. Girls can be burdened with the expectation of knowing everything, in old-fashioned minority households that give more slack to their brothers for slacking off. And so forth. What I’m disagreeing with are the false, or at least ludicrously overemphasized gendered dichotomies the writer is drawing. They all play into this mindset that men’s gender oppression is the psychological burden of being overestimated all the time, which is honestly pretty damn insulting. Many men can attest that they’ve never been overestimated a day in their lives. It’s not the result of malice, it’s the result of cluelessness and thoughtlessness, and to be fair it’s the form of cluelessness that’s understandable in a single-issue advocate whose single issue is not us, but that’s why people like me need to be there to challenge it.

  51. ozymandias42 says:

    Everyone, the pronoun I use is “zie,” not “she.” 🙂

    pocketjacks: Thanks for your critique. Tbh, I was just using the first image I could find that conveyed the message “gender roles fuck it up for everyone.”

    Uncalledfor: Um… you wanted to know what the problems of college-age normative men were. I asked some. I’m not sure what’s so mocking about that. I mean, it’s hardly a scientific sample, since it was “the men who were in shouting distance of Ozy”, but I think it’s not bad to start with. And if it’s vague or otherwise unsatisfactory, blame them. I took it down verbatim. 🙂

  52. Pocketjacks, who are you quoting about football? J/C.

  53. Jay Generally says:

    @ Pocketjacks

    I actually agree with most of what you say, so far as that seems to be how several people I’ve met interpret masculine oppression. The examples in that image do fall into an odd gender binary of presumed competence for boys and incompetence for girls, but I see the good intention of most of them. (I rather outirght like the EZ bake oven example.) The only one that makes me chuckle cynically is the ‘expected to know everything’ one. Anyway, yes, it’s all a sort of, “It must suck to have to be so constantly awesome. I bet its really stressful and you just wish you could be weak and not be punished”

    However, in regard to the Success Myth, I know that’s not how I interpret it. I don’t think I’ve gotten that vibe from noah either. The Success Myth, rather, is about how someone else’s subjective standard of success is used as a judgement against one’s character and validity as a person. Your example of someone being punished for acting against the interest of their superior plays into it rather perfectly. The logic would go that the lesser deserves the station they’re at and they deserve the chastisement of the superior, because if they didn’t deserve they wouldn’t be at that station and would be the superior. It’s an illusion of freedom used to dismiss someone else’s concerns against your own.

    As an example: Tim works the midnight to 8:00 am shit at a 24/7 data entry center where the employees all key in faxes to create pdf copies of valuable information. His employers institute a numerical quota of 50 faxes keyed in a day. The faxes received during the midnight to 8:00 am shift only average 35 a day. When Tim fails to meet quota, his explanation that there aren’t enough faxes to enter falls on deaf ears. They point out that he is the only employee who fails to meet quota, and they insist that he correct his behavior. When he fails, they decide to ban casual internet usage after midnight, force him to punch out for bathroom breaks, and install a camera near Tim’s desk. It is recorded that Tim is very difficult to work with because he makes excuses and argues with his superiors. Tim eventually gets fired. They replace him with Jim, Pym, Grim, Mim, and Vim in succession. Eventually a district manager crunches numbers, finds out about the 35 faxes a night average, and presents the numbers to the board. They’ve been told the same thing dozens of times before, but, now that the DM has presented the numbers, they believe what was always true and waive the 50 faxes requirement for that shift. Vim keeps his job, but the punitive-oops- ‘correctional’ policies put into place for Tim remain. Promotion and raises are still based on the number by which employees exceed quota, so Vim is still punished for taking a shift that is already hard to fill. The district manager is promoted for fixing the problems with high turnover.

    As boring as my example may be, that’s the Success Myth. There’s no overestimation of individuals. If they held Tim in high esteem they would have believed him when he told them why he couldn’t make quota. They didn’t overestimate what number of faxes an employee should be able to enter if there are faxes to do. Rather a measure of success was determined and then all failures to meet that measure were regarded solely as the onus of the person failing. The employees in question never had any desire to be weak. They just wanted their postions considered with proper context.

  54. monkey says:

    Ozy, no offense but when I hear “zie” I think of an exaggerated French accent 🙂

    Here’s my problem with terms. I can’t get behind the term Feminism because I feel that along as there’s the “Fem” it won’t be equal. Masculism has the exact same problem.

    For me, it doesn’t matter who is more oppressed. I think that in most ways women are more hurt by patriarchy, but that shouldn’t discount men’s suffering. I think the main thing is we should regard all this suffering as *human* suffering first and foremost.

    I guess my other thing is about privilege, and my one problem with Second Wave feminism is that men’s only acceptable response is to shut up and listen and acknowledge their privilege, which is something that hurt me growing up and made me for a while quite anti-feminist (how much “priviledge” does a young boy really have? True, there was a lot of talk about “children’s rights,” but they often were tied in with mother’s rights.) I also resent that Gloria Steinem, while continuously saying ” Men should be saying,”We can do anything that women can do.'” is constantly undermining that idea by saying that men and women are completely different.

    I don’t think the answer is the Good Men Project, which seems to be the sort of Men’s Auxiliary of mainstream feminism. I guess what I’m saying is that recognizing one’s privilege should not automatically require denying one’s identity. No one – no one – should be made to feel bad for what they are.

  55. Schala says:

    Or at least, strong compared to more culturally normative people, many of whom will be women (who, despite femaleness, have fewer of the above social “flaws”). If they try to do something that’s the prerogative of their social higher-ups, many will try to tear them back down to keep them in their place. What would be considered bold or decisive or evidence of leadership from another, would be considered rude, overly aggressive, overcompensating, or otherwise offputting if done by one of these men.

    and

    Your example of someone being punished for acting against the interest of their superior plays into it rather perfectly. The logic would go that the lesser deserves the station they’re at and they deserve the chastisement of the superior, because if they didn’t deserve they wouldn’t be at that station and would be the superior. It’s an illusion of freedom used to dismiss someone else’s concerns against your own.

    Both illustrations that say what I’ve said before. If maleness is a higher station, trans men would be prevented as much as possible, and shamed, shunned and beaten to not be recognized as male. While if femaleness is a lower station, no one would care that trans women exist, because who would punish someone who wants to permanently go into a lower cast (ie it’s not slumming, it’s permanent, and there is a difference: the slummer does it for fun, temporarily).

    This is why I have a big problem with seeing femaleness as a lower cast here. Because it sure isn’t in the minds of people who want to defend the boundaries of femaleness but don’t care one bit about the boundaries of maleness (all conservatives, and right-wing rad fems aka TERFs*).

    *Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminists

    Both TERFs and conservatives see femaleness as morally good (Victorian attitude) and claim maleness is the reason of wars and all that debunked shit.

  56. debaser71 says:

    Does anyone want to know what happened to me when I said “fuck the success myth”? (and no, i didn’t say that, i’m just using the language already in use here).

    Nothing.

    So without getting into details I’ll just paraphrase Gandhi, “you must become the change you wish to see in the world”.

  57. ozymandias42 says:

    Monkey: There are no good gender-neutral pronouns in English. I picked the least bad. 🙂

    debaser: Yes. And when I said “fuck the beauty myth,” nothing particularly happened to me (except that my sister and mother felt the need to complain about my armpits). But that doesn’t mean that the beauty myth isn’t real in the life of, say, someone who feels like they have to put on three layers of makeup to be presentable leaving the house. Just because it’s a bit of cultural debris floating around in someone’s brain doesn’t mean it’s not real. 🙂

  58. Barry: I mean, I believe that sexist beliefs oppress both men and women. I’m not sure I believe that there is such a thing as “the larger social picture” — I mean, when the men of a village in a war-torn country are gathered and executed, is that part of the larger social picture? I don’t know what the appropriate measuring stick is for saying one sex is more oppressed than the other.

    The measuring stick is who is doing it.

    Are the men in the village gathered up and executed by women or men? On the orders of women or men? Sent by male or female politicians, from cultures/countries dominated by—? Are the religions/ governments that support this war largely run by men or women? What is the percentage of people on the front lines (of both sides) that are men vs women? Further, what is the percentage of the citizenry that actively supports this war, and are they mostly male or female? Who is more likely to vote for warmongering politicians, men or women?

    That readily tells you who the oppressor is, not always who the oppressed is.

    But that is why feminists say women are more oppressed; we have little or no representation among the oppressor class. When we do, it’s heralded as a fluke and/or a barrier broken (i.e. Golda Meir, Margaret Thatcher) and is not usually followed by another woman in the same position.

    Men sending men to war is a unique form of oppression, properly called colonialism and imperialism. But it is not a elite coterie of women who decide these things. It IS a coterie of men that decides.

    I am profoundly uncomfortable with the constant denial of these basic gender-facts, that I continually read here.

  59. Schala: While if femaleness is a lower station, no one would care that trans women exist, because who would punish someone who wants to permanently go into a lower cast

    I don’t think the punishments have anything to do with you or any particular individual trans woman, but the fact that a cis het man was “fooled” and his own fear of “being gay”…i.e. if he is attracted to a woman who is “really a man”–then the fear is that he must be gay, or he would somehow have been able to”tell”. I am older (older than your mother!), and I have heard literally hundreds of men (especially bikers) brag that they could never make such a “mistake”–often called “dating Lola” after the Kinks song — as if it is proof of masculinity or some core unconscious heterosexuality that inevitably triumphs. And then, they start talking about “how you can tell”–I’ve heard all about elbows, waists (and elbow-waist ratios!), feet, hands, fingers, you name it. (Its funny, first they brag that they can “always tell”–then they share HOW they can tell, so I guess it’s something they had to study, not something they instinctively KNEW, which is how they initially present it.)

    In short, its all about them. Trans women are punished because of what the men attracted to them are afraid of in themselves, nothing about lower castes. This is what “Trans Panic” and “Gay Panic” legal defenses mean.

  60. Schala says:

    Ahem, I’m speaking of radfems, who also fear “being fooled” by trans women who are bisexual or lesbians. And conservatives are more afraid of having a trans woman in their bathroom with their daughters than of dating one.

  61. Schala says:

    The measuring stick is who is doing it.

    Someone from the country of the victim, very often. Or from the same continent, and barring anything else, the same race (the human race).

    I don’t think saying “men oppress themselves hahaha, let them die then!” is productive.

  62. Ahem, I am speaking of what you said above, your “proof” of why femaleness can not be a “lower station”. And I am speaking of men and who they are attracted to and how they handle that, not radfems.

    Radfems have not killed a single trans woman in “Trans Panic”–if one has, I missed it.

  63. Schala says:

    And people who would police the higher station of manhood…would be men. They would want to prevent intrusion, additional competition and removal of resources.

    Funny enough I only see women policing the station of womanhood. I see some chivalric men also doing it. On the basis that being female is something essential, and that having a penis means that this essence definitely doesn’t exist…but this essence is somehow not about the body, either.

    Nobody says “You can’t be a man!”. They say “Only men can do this” when speaking of actions, maybe, but never the state of ‘being’. It seems men are defined by action, inaction is inexistence. Men are not, they do. But still, no one policing the group identification. There is policing within it, without it, but never that excludes from it.

  64. Schala says:

    “Radfems have not killed a single trans woman in “Trans Panic”–if one has, I missed it.”

    TERFs have advocated for the same things conservatives argue for, that trans women are really men and we don’t want them in women’s space.

    What do you think some yahoo is going to do to a trans woman based on that advocacy? Words they mean something, and they can incite hatred and violence.

  65. Schala: I don’t think saying “men oppress themselves hahaha, let them die then!” is productive.

    Excuse me, I said NO SUCH FUCKING THING. Quote please? Stop putting words in my mouth.

    And you have been an anti-war activist for 40 years? If not, you do not have the right to say such a thing to me. Exactly what have you done to stop wars, Schala? Have you demonstrated?Have you signed petitions? Anything? Jail? Arrests? Teargas? Hiding how many men from the draft? (As a Canadian, how many American men fleeing the draft did you house?) Have you even written a freaking letter to the editor? Yes, asking for the creds, and they better be good.

    If you have none, an apology for that extremely tactless, offensive and insulting fucking comment is in order.

  66. Schala: Nobody says “You can’t be a man!”

    Of course they say this. Do you want the link to a Christian thread about Chaz Bono, where I got in an argument over DANCING WITH THE STARS?

    Funny enough I only see women policing the station of womanhood.

    Really? So could you name the female murderer of trans women? I don’t seem to remember a single one.

  67. “Radfems have not killed a single trans woman in “Trans Panic”–if one has, I missed it.”

    This point stands.

    Your continuous grudge against all radfems, who have little power in the real world, while granting murdering men a pass, is pretty misogynist itself, Schala. I’m getting a little tired of it.

  68. Waiting on those antiwar creds, Schala. There must be a lot, since it is taking you so long to post them.

    I can’t believe the sheer arrogance of some political dilettante who would say such a thing. Suffice to say, I’ve done a helluva lot more for men fighting wars than you have ever even THOUGHT ABOUTokay?

  69. Schala says:

    I’m sorry I responded in anger in my first post (it touched some of my buttons), I should have known better than to reply at all. Because now I’m not replying to that.

    You call me when your average trans man gets denied access to male-only pharmacies or victim-advocacy services. Dancing with the stars, seriously? We’re all Hollywood-level stars you see.

  70. Schala says:

    Schala: I don’t think saying “men oppress themselves hahaha, let them die then!” is productive.

    Excuse me, I said NO SUCH FUCKING THING. Quote please? Stop putting words in my mouth.

    This: “The measuring stick is who is doing it. “

  71. Darque says:

    Daisy, I think you’ve crossed a pretty fucking egregious line here. Schala hasn’t granted “murderous men” a pass on anything, she’s just holding women to the same standard of hate speech that she would hold to men. Its not like radical feminists aren’t being singled out – they can simply be added to the list of right wing evangelicals, homophobes, and other assholes who posit that transgender individuals are fakes or sub-human.

    Regarding war: I don’t give two shits about the kind of real-life “cred” that you’ve built up. If you say something stupid on this blog, in all likelihood you’re going to get called on it. You clearly delineated a difference between men and women as oppressor and oppressed class – even though people keep bringing up evidence to the contrary.

    Thank you for your activism, but please, go fuck yourself.

  72. Schala: I don’t think saying “men oppress themselves hahaha, let them die then!” is productive.

    Asked when I EVER said such an inflammatory, evil, vicious, genocidal and disgusting thing, I get:

    This: “The measuring stick is who is doing it. “

    Those are two different motherfucking sentences. What the hell are you talking about? I am talking about Marx’s concept of oppressor and oppressed, and how one figures out which is which. As Gramsci said, you have to analyze each situation anew, separately, and that is what I was doing with Barry’s statement OF COURSE.

    Wait, why am I expecting a clueless political dilettante to recognize dialectical materialism? HAHA! I forgot who I was talking to. I should have made it about ANIME or CLOTHES and then maybe you’d recognize it.

    Where is that apology, and/or list of antiwar creds? Are you saying you have done exactly NOTHING against war your whole life and yet feel entitled to accuse an activist of 40 yrs of being pro war and laughing about it “hahaha”???

    You got some nerve.

  73. Darque: Daisy, I think you’ve crossed a pretty fucking egregious line here. Schala hasn’t granted “murderous men” a pass on anything, she’s just holding women to the same standard of hate speech that she would hold to men. Its not like radical feminists aren’t being singled out – they can simply be added to the list of right wing evangelicals, homophobes, and other assholes who posit that transgender individuals are fakes or sub-human.

    I am tired of Schala’s constant attacks on radfems as the worst transphobes of all time, while she sing the praises of men as perfect and trans-accepting. Where I come from, its the opposite, and I therefore said so.

    In this thread, she even claims it is women, not men, who are the “worst” gender police. And so, I asked where the radfem/women murderers of trans people are, since they ARE “the worst” of the worst, aren’t they?

    Responding to her hyperbole, with hyperbole. (However, if she is serious, then so am I.)

    Darque: Regarding war: I don’t give two shits about the kind of real-life “cred” that you’ve built up.

    I’d be stunned if you cared about me in ANY way. You’ve made it clear how much you dislike me, multiple times.

    If you say something stupid on this blog, in all likelihood you’re going to get called on it.

    Excuse me, but you do NOT get to accuse me of being pro genocide and pro war without my asking what YOU have done to earn this power to condemn me. WHO are YOU and WHO is Schala, that you feel entitled to judge me in this way–and imply that I “hahaha” about death and war, when I have spent a good deal of my life fighting it?

    This is extremely offensive and insulting after 40 years of hard work, but no, I don’t expect young people to understand that.

    You clearly delineated a difference between men and women as oppressor and oppressed class – even though people keep bringing up evidence to the contrary.

    And there are other people here who agree with me; are you addressing them also?

    I am entitled to my opinion and to share it without being intimidated or silenced.. I gave my evidence, and you could respond to what I actually said instead of issuing more personal attacks.

    Further, if I am mistaken, could you answer the Gramsci questions in the post? I actually got them all straight from him. Who is declaring wars and having standing armies in the first place and why is it “stupid” to discuss this? (BTW, Barry is the one who asked about war, I was addressing his particular comments.)

  74. tovyasagain says:

    @Daisy Deadhead

    Schala’s wording made it pretty clear that they weren’t quoting you, they were trying to sum up how they felt the attitude you were conveying wasn’t helpful. I can see why you interpreted it the way you did, especially if war is an issue you feel passionate about, but I don’t think they meant to offend you at all, let alone to the grievous degree you felt offended.

    I think there was crosstalk to begin with. The conversation had been much along the lines of talking about how men might feel pressured to *volunteer* for military service, to fit the “success myth”, or feel they need to be violent to be manly, and that those norms aren’t *only* being enforced by men – and then you redirect the conversation to talking about how men are the ones in charge. We were talking about soldiers/victims of war, and how low income men suffered as a result of gendered expectations. You were talking about War, capital letter.

    In the context of a discussion about a man who signs up for war because he feels like a failure, talking about men being the ones in charge of nations can seem like a dismissal (thus misinterpretation and poor paraphrasing, leading to offense and anger).

  75. Danny says:

    Daisy:
    That readily tells you who the oppressor is, not always who the oppressed is.

    But that is why feminists say women are more oppressed; we have little or no representation among the oppressor class. When we do, it’s heralded as a fluke and/or a barrier broken (i.e. Golda Meir, Margaret Thatcher) and is not usually followed by another woman in the same position.
    So sharing gender with the people that are gathering you up for execution because of your gender means you don’t have it as bad?

    It seems like its a matter of those in power doing what they can to stay in power. They do certain things to men and boys and certain things to girls and women. But somehow at the end of the day because those men and boys share gender with the oppressors “women have it worse”.

  76. 2ndnin says:

    Daisy, from what I read (and please correct me if I am wrong) Schala hasn’t said women are the worst oppressors but rather that RADICAL FEMINISTS should be put up there with other people who have a strong dislike of trans identified individuals.

    “In this thread, she even claims it is women, not men, who are the “worst” gender police. And so, I asked where the radfem/women murderers of trans people are, since they ARE “the worst” of the worst, aren’t they?”

    You don’t need to be a murderer to be amongst the worst of the worst, I’m pretty sure we could all name at least one person who didn’t directly kill anyone but who was responsible or incited others to do so. If we risk godwinning the thread we can name lots so actually performing a deed yourself is I would say not a very good estimation of someone’s evilness. I wouldn’t put any radical feminist I can think of at the same level of evil as these people but I think we must at least consider views which are gendercidal to be a little off colour.

    Also considering men in general have been the enforcers for both male and female hierarchies considering them complicit simply because they are the enforcers of another’s will doesn’t seem fair. To lay blame on the backs of ‘men’ when the majority of those men have little real agency (see feminist arguments on the ability of women to consent in a patriarchical society) seems like a double standard to me. The majority of men (like women) are born into a system they are nearly powerless to change unless they resort to violence and gain popular support. Our political systems are almost all designed to suppress small parties and maintain a status quo and the way we draw ‘political sub areas’ helps this – look at the recent furore in the US over some redistricting…

  77. noahbrand says:

    Everyone take a couple deep breaths and simmer down a bit. Daisy, I mean you in particular.

    Being polite about this warning this time, but I am serious. Deep breaths.

  78. Improbable Joe says:

    I think the whole claim of there being an “oppressor class” is nonsense. It is a ladder, with people on the higher rungs kicking people on the lower rungs, while being kicked by people on higher rungs. So let’s not pretend that women aren’t engaged in oppression or capable of enjoying metric shit-tons of privilege. At the same time, all other things being equal women tend to fare worse than men, so not too much boo-hooing from the guys either.

  79. 2ndnin: and then you redirect the conversation to talking about how men are the ones in charge.

    See, I thought I redirected the conversation to men (soldiers in particular, in this situation) being oppressed by colonialism and imperialism, and named these things specifically as causes of male oppression. I do think that is qualitatively different than mere “sexism”–since some men are the oppressed and some are the oppressors. If it was all “sexism”–this dialectic would apply to everyone, not just some (i.e. the soldiers in question. Why are the “winning” soldiers not executed?).

    Danny: So sharing gender with the people that are gathering you up for execution because of your gender means you don’t have it as bad?

    Who said THAT?

    Improbable Joe: I think the whole claim of there being an “oppressor class” is nonsense.

    You don’t think the people of Afghanistan are oppressed by the class that is “the USA”? We have systematically brutalized them with our bombs and artillery. (Have you asked them what they think?) What exactly have they done to deserve this? What have the Iraqis done to deserve this?

    Of course there are oppressor classes, and as I said, in each situation, you have to analyze which social group has been placed in these positions. At least, much socialist theory has operated on this concept. For example, when it comes to Afghanistan –*I* am in the oppressor class, of course. I do not exempt myself.

    I feel like I am speaking another language. (?) Maybe I am. (sigh) Look, never mind.

    I didn’t realize Marxism was unacceptable here, and I will not discuss these ideas again. But I thought these were pretty standard ideas about men’s oppression; I did not expect such a negative reaction. Stunned actually.

    As I said, I didn’t invent these ideas. Some MAN did, believe it or not.

  80. Improbable Joe says:

    Oh noes Daisy… actually, “oh, yeah…” What you’re feeling right now? I feel like I get that a lot too, so I apologize for that. Maybe the same language, but you’re using a shorthand that works in your smaller social group but fails outside of it?

  81. Danny says:

    Daisy:
    Who said THAT?
    Those exact words? No one did and I didn’t try to accuse you of so hence putting it in the form of a question.

    You said that who is doing the oppressing matters and then talk about how women have little to no representation in those ruling/oppressor classes.

    So I ask again.

    Does sharing gender with the people that are gathering you up for execution because of your gender mean you don’t have it as bad?

  82. Joe, I didn’t think Marxism was a small social group. Again, shows what I know.

    Danny: You said that who is doing the oppressing matters and then talk about how women have little to no representation in those ruling/oppressor classes.

    So I ask again.

    Does sharing gender with the people that are gathering you up for execution because of your gender mean you don’t have it as bad?

    (sigh)

    I thought Barry was asking a specific war-related question. I have thought, prayed, meditated, read and studied a LOT about war: how it works, who wages it, against whom, etc. I have lost a great deal of sleep over the years, thinking about my country’s propensity and EAGERNESS for war and how this state of affairs came to be. It is the first political thought I ever had.

    This is why I got angry at Schala for saying I am laughing about it, when no, I have mostly sobbed my heart out. For years. (And since she is a Canadian of younger age, I doubt Schala has thought about war even 5% as much as I have, so I was extremely offended by the casual callousness of her comment.)

    Here is what Barry said: I mean, I believe that sexist beliefs oppress both men and women. I’m not sure I believe that there is such a thing as “the larger social picture” — I mean, when the men of a village in a war-torn country are gathered and executed, is that part of the larger social picture? I don’t know what the appropriate measuring stick is for saying one sex is more oppressed than the other.

    I was trying to provide that “larger social picture”–since I was also startled he said he didn’t believe in one. OMG, really? (Do even political bloggers in liberal places like Oregon really not think about how war comes about and the “larger social picture”? No wonder we’re in trouble.)

    Answer to Barry–

    Why are the “men in a war torn village” executed? Does this mean the women were separated out? And for what? Rape? Or does he mean (as I assumed, I could be wrong) SOLDIERS are specifically being executed? My point is that men run wars, always have and still are. Women are not “represented” in wars. War is not usually an axis of sexist oppression, except as fallout, or what is brutally referred to as “collateral damage”. (“women and children”–children are not represented in war either) One must look for the oppression axis in any given situation. Women are not even in this situation, as “prime movers”. Do you agree that women do not run countries and religions? Then we are not the prime movers and we are patently unable to oppress men in war.

    When I hear MRA-fellow-travelers reply to the charge “women make less money than men” (which is a situation decided on by male employers or business-owners, usually) with “but more men get killed in war!”–these situations are not analogous. Men are killing other men, women are not killing men. Who then is oppressing these men in war settings?

    To analyze oppression, one must look for the axis of power in any given situation, and the axis of power in war is colonialism and imperialism. This is one government or system oppressing another. The archetypes would be the so-called “First World” (doncha love those imperialist words) oppressing continents like India and Africa, for their natural resources. The men killed in these places are therefore oppressed BY COLONIALISM, not by sexism, unless you want to get into this whole political/philosophical inquisition about how intrinsic sexism is to colonialism (and yes, I’ve been there, and I can go there, if you want). I am personally of the opinion that the sexism in this dialectic is secondary to the racism and the ideology of IMPERIALISM, that a so-called “World superpower” can do whatever they have decided is necessary, to continue holding onto its powerful position and standard of living. If they need slaves, oil, diamonds, furs, land and water rights, poppies/heroin, cocoa leaves/cocaine, gold, silver, bananas, etc etc… well, they go get it, and fuck whoever is in the way.

    THIS is what oppresses men in the situation Barry described. This does not account for ALL PLACES AND ALL TIMES. I was replying to a specific question about war and soldiers.

    This is a standard Marxist analysis of who is oppressing whom in war, and I didn’t make it up. As I said, I understand that as an American, I oppress people all over the fucking world... otherwise, why would I sob my heart out over war? I’m not fighting the actual war, after all, mostly men are. Right? So why should I care? (NOTE: I am assuming that you are aware of the separatist/second wave hoopla over pacifism being “about men” right? And the feminist button/bumper sticker that said “Leave men, their wars and their garbage”–yes? Some radical feminists believed anti-war positions were taken by women like me only to please men. We developed political arguments worthy of their respect, by pointing out that war ALSO impacts women, which it seemed had never occurred to them. Arguments referencing stats and accounts of women being raped in war, etc, were developed by Barbara Deming, Catharine MacKinnon and others, as a REPLY to these dogmatic separatists who wanted women to leave the antiwar movement.)

    Thus, your question is bizarre, in the context of what I was saying.

    Does sharing gender with the people that are gathering you up for execution because of your gender mean you don’t have it as bad?

    Of course not. (?)

    And I have to say “because of your gender” is not in Barry’s original statement, you added that. Is it due to their gender or due to the fact that they are supposed to be terrorists or Viet Cong or something? That is due to where they live, not their gender, and what the imperialists WANT, that they have decided to steal. As the males, they are assumed to be “in charge”–so they get executed. How else to get the furs and the women and the spoils of war?

    I do not expect that this explanation will go over any better than what I have attempted so far, but if you don’t like this, yall can take it up with: Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Antonio Gramsci, Frantz Fanon, Rosa Luxemburg, and all of those people.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism

  83. Danny says:

    As bizarre as you think the question is you actually did answer it.

    You seem to be just talking about who is in power and not making that leap.

    Thanks.

  84. Schala says:

    Why are the “men in a war torn village” executed? Does this mean the women were separated out? And for what? Rape? Or does he mean (as I assumed, I could be wrong) SOLDIERS are specifically being executed? My point is that men run wars, always have and still are.

    All able-bodied males between 15 and 65 usually. Not all soldiers I’m sure.

    Women are either raped or let go as refugees. UN and other such organizations will arrange for women and children being liberated as much as is possible. Men are all considered combatants (wether they are or not), because the penis is a weapon, or something.

    They (the ones who attack the village) also assume that women won’t rebel (or that it would be highly ineffective), but that men are more likely to. So add misogyny into it.

  85. Schala says:

    Daran wrote at least a piece about it on FC, something about gendercide. Interesting stuff even if not at all heartening.

  86. AB says:

    @Darque:

    Since everybody has been dog-piling on Daisy, I feel like I need to do something different.

    Daisy, I think you’ve crossed a pretty fucking egregious line here. Schala hasn’t granted “murderous men” a pass on anything, she’s just holding women to the same standard of hate speech that she would hold to men. Its not like radical feminists aren’t being singled out – they can simply be added to the list of right wing evangelicals, homophobes, and other assholes who posit that transgender individuals are fakes or sub-human.

    Actually, Schala had specifically said that although she knows there are conservatives and MRAs who’re just as bad or worse, she has chosen not to do anything about it because she believes it’s pointless, and that she has chosen to focus on criticising feminism instead. It’s not (according to her) because she wants to give these people a pass, it’s purely because she thinks there’s nothing she can do about anything except feminism. But the result is pretty much the same, and I can’t say that the reasoning that feminism needs to be attacked more because it’s an easier target is that much better.

    And while I don’t doubt there are strange radicals out there who believe transpeople are gender traitors, I also think she’s being unfair and taking it overly personal when some feminists have told her she is disruptive and unwelcome, because that’s the standard everybody else has to abide by. It often feels a lot like she has a personal grudge against feminism (which she’s also said multiple times), and it really shines through in her priorities. She’s not holding anyone to the same standards, she’s focussing one on group at the expense of everything else, and she’s even said as much herself.

    Regarding war: I don’t give two shits about the kind of real-life “cred” that you’ve built up. If you say something stupid on this blog, in all likelihood you’re going to get called on it. You clearly delineated a difference between men and women as oppressor and oppressed class – even though people keep bringing up evidence to the contrary.

    From what I can understand, she seemed to say that men getting killed in war is more about colonialism and imperialism than sexism. If all it took for something to be sexism was something bad happening to some members of one sex over another, then it would be sexism against men every time the male businessmen of one country screw over the male businessmen of another country. Or sexism against women if a woman from a first world country pays a dodgy adoption company to get her a child, tricked away from a single mother in a third world country.

  87. Darque says:

    Here is what I don’t understand: My operational definition of sexism is based off of what is being done to who and for what reason. Not who is comitting the sexist behavior. In my worldview, if a man is singled out for execution because he is a man, that is done to him for sexist reasons. Violently sexist reasons at that. I can understand how it might be hard to understand according to a marxist paradigm of class based oppressions, but seriously, Karl Marx isn’t a god, and he got plenty of things wrong. The world is more complicated than that.

    What is convenient in this context, is how feminist theory always tends to propose that oppression and harm toward women is sexist in nature (and thus, in the purview of feminism), but similar oppressions done to men (for who they are) are just because of some other reason. (But no, it can never be because of sexism, because that means it might be a relevant issue to be discussed in the context of gender.)

    As you know I will say: Fuck that. It is gendered, it is relevant, it hurts, and it should be discussed. But I can see why, as a feminist , you would say that it shouldn’t be.

  88. Schala says:

    1) MRAs who are specifically anti-trans? Don’t know that many.

    2) I also don’t dialogue with most TERFs given that going on their turf means not being published and being ridiculed for logical ideas, if they even get published in the first place. I’ve also been called a lesbian-hater because I didn’t focus on women-born-women (ie everyone but trans women) space to my own detriment. It’s not like I regularly venture on Heart’s blog. At best I go on MWMF forums and get piled on and reply to ignorant arguments with the intention of maybe swaying fence-sitters and people with no stake in the debate.

    3) The argument of religious conservatives for how trans people are wrong:

    Sex is immutable at birth, and decided by what the doctor who slapped you at birth said, who only recognizes the work of God, the rest is just pure fantasy meant to destroy Christianity and bring forth Hell. (all faith)

    The argument of Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminists (ie not all radfems) for how trans people are wrong:

    Sex is immutable at birth, and decided by what the doctor who slapped you at birth said, and then carried on by parents (how they raise you) and biology, the rest is pure fantasy meant to destroy womanhood and rape all women. (some faith, some scientific)

    I can at least argue the essentialist LOGIC bullshit, the religious are well aware of their sophistry and will not change. I will still try to correct egregious stupidities from those conservatives, but I left TOPIX to people with more patience than me. TERFs try to twist logic around to call all trans women perverts who want to do harm to women and are more dangerous for women as a whole than the most sexist chauvinist men.

    Some scientifics align with that belief (Blanchard, Bailey, Lawrence), claiming all trans women are perverts in one way or another (either sex-starved very gay men or men so imbued of their own female fantasy version of themselves that they modify their body to vicariously live their fetish, their attraction to women only proves that they’re not real women, on top), while saying that trans men are not at all (ie they ignore trans men, claiming they’d be too boring to study).

    Much of this line of thought, the religious conservative OR the TERF OR the bigot scientific argument all depend on a few misused tropes:
    -All men are perverts
    -Men only do important things because of their sex drive (even marry!, just ask conservative people about buying cows and milk…)
    -Trans women are not, have never been and will never be like “real” (ie cis) women, they only try to usurp the higher station (the most often named objection to female identification is the non-possession of birthing equipment, from whichever group – pre-empting even the possibility that a penis-bearer could be female-identified) of femaleness, to get sex easier (I seriously got told that by someone in my extended family), or get gifts and other chivalrous marks from men…or to rape unsuspecting children, or women (in bathrooms, or rape crisis centers, or DV shelters – depending on who makes the argument, when), or turn honest straight men gay.

    In any case, the last one is always perceived as some kind of fraud for an ulterior motive, only the motive changes.

  89. AB says:

    A general question here: Where did people (in America, it seems) get the idea that when something is of high status, imitating it should be frowned upon, while low-status behaviours are acceptable in everyone?

    It seems to me that colonial powers have always attempted to make the inhabitants of the countries under their command adopt the way of the colonising country. Aboriginals and native Americans have been sent to schools to learn how to become white and forbidden to speak their own languages, and native people all over the world have been subjected to various attempts to ‘civilise’ them. And immigrants here in Denmark are usually measured according to how well they absorb the dominating culture.

    And it doesn’t just appear to be happening in regards to cultures, the same seems to apply to black people in the USA. From what I’ve heard, the ideal for a long time was to be white, and the (historically) recent surge of black pride is a counter-reaction to that. I recall reading about Vogue (I think) advising professional women to avoid ‘political’ hairstyles like afros and dreadlocks at work, which basically amounts to telling a lot of black women to straighten their hair (or cut it very short).

    Barack Obama, the first non-white person to ever become the president of the USA is half white, and was raised by a foreign father and white mother, which probably exposed him to a lot less African American culture than most black Americans. He’s also not exactly noted for his ‘black’ manners. There’s also the issue of how, even among many black Americans who consider “acting white” to be a betrayal of their race, “acting white” is still often synonymous with the behaviours (more) common to the upper classes.

    And that’s not to mention expressions like “that’s so gay”. If having low status meant it was OK for all people to act like it, while the traits associated with a higher status was only allowed a few, then gay people should be admonished for acting straight, not the other way around. And people should frown on disabled people trying to overcome their disability and act like ‘normal’ people, because as a low-status group, they shouldn’t be allowed to become able-bodied.

    While it’s certainly true that there are social positions which low-status groups are often denied access to, and certain indulgences that only high status people are allowed, that’s not quite the same as saying that the behaviour ascribed to high status people is automatically something low-status people are told to avoid. There’s an old saying which goes “It’s hard to be a woman, one has to think like a man, act like a lady, look like a girl, and work like a horse”. And believe me, the “think like a man” part was not put in there because women had such a high status.

  90. AB says:

    @Darque:

    Here is what I don’t understand: My operational definition of sexism is based off of what is being done to who and for what reason. Not who is comitting the sexist behavior. In my worldview, if a man is singled out for execution because he is a man, that is done to him for sexist reasons. Violently sexist reasons at that.

    If, during a war, the nobility is executed while the peasants and slaves are not, is it then oppression against said nobility? They’re targeted with a violence which the rest of society is not, so there must be some -ism at work. But which is it?

  91. Improbable Joe says:

    That’s a weird way of looking at the world, Daisy. I’m an American, and last time I checked I’ve not oppressed anyone in at least a couple of years.

  92. Schala says:

    f having low status meant it was OK for all people to act like it, while the traits associated with a higher status was only allowed a few, then gay people should be admonished for acting straight, not the other way around.

    Gay and lesbian people ARE admonished for ‘acting straight’, by other gay and lesbian people.

    Bisexual people ARE admonished for *dating* straight, by other LGB people, as well. If you’re a bisexual woman, a lesbian woman will claim you’re fickle and you might leave her for a man, and a man would say the same to her about leaving for a woman.

    They don’t want ambivalence.

    It seems to me that colonial powers have always attempted to make the inhabitants of the countries under their command adopt the way of the colonising country. Aboriginals and native Americans have been sent to schools to learn how to become white and forbidden to speak their own languages, and native people all over the world have been subjected to various attempts to ‘civilise’ them. And immigrants here in Denmark are usually measured according to how well they absorb the dominating culture.

    That’s true. The British have tried to do this to us in Quebec, after the Seven Years War and up until very recently, there were measures meant to favor English-speaking and to defavor French-speaking, to assimilate us faster.

    Except it’s a bad analogy to sexes. Neither men or women are ‘savages to be civilized’ as a group (though it’s quite a Victorian meme that men are horny beasts that need women’s civilizing influence, it was the reverse before, women were hypersexual and would give men problems because of their lust, men were the rational ones, thinking beyond sex).

    Men are encouraged, through shame, guilt and beatings, to adopt the trappings and attitudes of a beast of burden, lest they luck out and strike it rich (risk-taking). Encouraged to not make too many waves, unless they’re the leader, encouraged to blend with others, and look as bland as possible (no colors, no styles except in extremely limited amounts, all clones of each other, with the leader looking somewhat better probably because of wealth). Seeking socio-political or economic power augments one’s mate possibility because more people will seek that plus value, the myth of men not being hot makes tons of men focus highly on their job or career to not end up old and alone, or never marry (wether that attitude is true or a myth, it seems to be widely believed).

    Women are encouraged, through shame, guild and I’m not sure there are beatings, but I’m pretty sure there is some equivalent and I just have not seen it due to evading female-female school bullying, to adopt the trappings and attitude of a mother first, worker second. Encouraged to look her best, pay attention to her appearance at all times, and attract the most high-quality mate mainly through being pretty and homemaker skills (the latter is going out of style here, but it’s strong elsewhere). They don’t need to seek leadership to augment their mating chances because socio-political or economic power are not that attractive to men, and many (not all) seek their socio-politicial or economic equal in a mate, thus making the point moot for people who shunned the rat race. Many will focus highly on their looks through excessive make-up and fashion purchases, because society tells them it’s how you go up and to not end up old and alone, or never marry (same as with men, wether its true or myth, it is widely believed).

    Motherhood is more valued than beast-of-burdenship for many, including mothers themselves, often. Women can do motherhood, and beast of burdenship, men can only do beast of burdenship, if they don’t, they fail life according to governments and its societies (and yes, this includes trans women at least, who are often considered unemployable by employers – and most can’t be mothers either).

  93. Darque says:

    In AB’s worldview, I can only guess which gender represents the “nobility” and which one represents the “peasants and slaves”.

  94. AB says:

    @Schala:

    Gay and lesbian people ARE admonished for ‘acting straight’, by other gay and lesbian people.

    Bisexual people ARE admonished for *dating* straight, by other LGB people, as well. If you’re a bisexual woman, a lesbian woman will claim you’re fickle and you might leave her for a man, and a man would say the same to her about leaving for a woman.

    They don’t want ambivalence.

    But what exactly does that say about their status in the outside world? Do they also look down on straight people for being straight? You’re not exactly proving anything about status by pointing out that members of almost every group are admonished if they stick out from said group in the wrong way, usually by in-group members.

  95. AB says:

    @Darque:

    In AB’s worldview, I can only guess which gender represents the “nobility” and which one represents the “peasants and slaves”.

    I was asking you a question. If you think sexism is solely about bad things happening to one sex more than another, why is it different from any other group? Why is something bad happening to one group over another suddenly not oppression or an -ism when that group is not men?

  96. Darque: Karl Marx isn’t a god, and he got plenty of things wrong.

    If people are going to talk blasphemy, I can’t continue on this thread. 😉

    But at least I see why we have wars in three countries simultaneously (doesn’t count all the covert actions)–you and lots of other people don’t take any responsibility for what your country does in your name. So it doesn’t change.

    To the non-Americans: see what we put up with it? “War? What war?” Certainly nobody HERE is responsible for any war. (vomits for emphasis)

  97. Joe, so you are not an American? If you are, did you know there has been a solid decade of war? Waged with war machinery purchased with our money? Yes, they take your money, and drop bombs on babies (both genders) with the bombs purchased by OUR money. They do this to steal oil at cheap-ass prices, to keep YOUR (and my) car running.

    If bombs are not oppressive, I don’t know what is.

    If you are not an American, my apologies and please disregard.

  98. Improbable Joe says:

    I’m an American. I’m not the president, or in Congress, or within a hundred million degrees of separation between me and the oppression.

  99. Joe, but do you eat meat? Drive a car? Buy things in stores? You can start there. Of course, if you think everything is fine, there is no reason for you to start, right? Must be nice!

    Like I asked Dungone (and never got a reply), if everything is so good in your life, I wonder why you are participating here? Ain’t nothing that needs changing, right? (That includes MALE GENDER ROLES, right?) But for those of us who believe things need changing, there are ways to stop collaborating and oppressing RIGHT NOW. And ways to address the issues we are talking about here on this blog.

    Joe, I take it you do not believe you have any type of privilege? White privilege? Straight privilege? Cis privilege? Educational privilege? Any other kind? Because of course, that privilege comes at the expense of someone else. Some would say this means you oppress people over whom you have this privilege.

    As an American, can you at least admit that you (and I) take a great deal more than our share? Our carbon footprints are huge and we can’t deny them. We make most of the pollution and waste in the world, although China is gaining on us.

  100. Darque says:

    “:Why is something bad happening to one group over another suddenly not oppression or an -ism when that group is not men?”

    Not true, it clearly is sexism regardless of whether it is occurring to men or women. My operational definition takes into account that whether or not it’s men or women, if it’s targeted behavior that depends on the sex of the person in question, it’s sexist. Rape in war. Deaths in war. Slut shaming. Virgin shaming. Gendered insults.

    Whereas, it appears that your definition is some mealy-mouthed bastardization of Karl Marx that places women’s oppression on some higher level plan of existence than men’s. Oh no, let’s not call it sexism against men sexism. That would dilute the purity of my class war paradigm.

    You know AB, if you want to prove me wrong, how about you explain to me that royalty and peasant analogy? Are you going to be the 1001st feminist that tells me, “Women have it worse?”. Go ahead, I dare you.

  101. Danny says:

    AB:
    If, during a war, the nobility is executed while the peasants and slaves are not, is it then oppression against said nobility? They’re targeted with a violence which the rest of society is not, so there must be some -ism at work. But which is it?
    If in your example the nobility is being executed because they are nobility then I would be willing to call it classism. Others would probably call it “justice” or “revolution” but by the definition of doing something to members of a groups because they are that group is an -ism as well as those other colorful words.

  102. Darque: But no, it can never be because of sexism, because that means it might be a relevant issue to be discussed in the context of gender.

    Did you read my comment? I specifically asked if you wanted to talk about how colonialism and imperialism may have arisen out of sexism and gender, but I doubt I can do as well as Engels:

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/

    Now, study that. “study, study, study or bunk bunk, bad kid!” (extra points for geeks who spot the line)

    I take it you think these ideas are just wrong, so didn’t see any reason to pursue it. But as I said, I can go there if you want.

  103. Darque: Not true, it clearly is sexism regardless of whether it is occurring to men or women.

    And capitalism is socialism, and down is up, north is south, green is red and a Cadillac is really a BMW…

    No, this is clearly WRONG, and explains why your politics are …. the way they are.

    Every bad thing that happens to men is sexism? You can’t be serious.

  104. Danny says:

    Hold up. Maybe I’m out of mind here but I get the feeling that we are about get to arguing over what is and is not sexism. We’ve done this before. The very definition of sexism is one of those things where you just can’t please everyone.

    Let’s do that deep breath thing noah was talking about…

  105. AB says:

    @Darque:

    Not true, it clearly is sexism regardless of whether it is occurring to men or women. My operational definition takes into account that whether or not it’s men or women, if it’s targeted behavior that depends on the sex of the person in question, it’s sexist.

    And again, why is it not oppression when groups of people have bad things happening to them because of something other than sex? What is it that makes sex/gender so special?

    Whereas, it appears that your definition is some mealy-mouthed bastardization of Karl Marx that places women’s oppression on some higher level plan of existence than men’s. Oh no, let’s not call it sexism against men sexism. That would dilute the purity of my class war paradigm.

    I don’t recall saying anything about Marx, or giving any definition of anything. Quite the contrary, I’m asking you about your definitions. Do you believe every bad thing which is more prone to happening to one group over another is oppression of said group? Why/why not? And if no, where do you draw the line?

    You know AB, if you want to prove me wrong, how about you explain to me that royalty and peasant analogy? Are you going to be the 1001st feminist that tells me, “Women have it worse?”. Go ahead, I dare you.

    The analogy is simple: Sometimes bad things happened to the aristocracy more than to the peasants. For instance, peasants were less likely to become sick because of toxic make-up which has been mandatory for the aristocracy in certain time periods. And while peasants had a bigger chance of losing their position if they screwed up, they didn’t have as much chance of dying from it, whereas royalty was often murdered before it was replaced.

    So if we’re to define sexism and oppression solely in terms of “Some bad things are more likely to happen to one group over another” and there are no degrees of oppression, then it would be an obvious conclusion that the aristocracy has always been just as oppressed as the peasantry. Which is not a conclusion I’m necessarily against, I just want to be clear which definitions you use.

  106. Darque says:

    Daisy is like one of the tea party establishment or a bible-thumper. Everytime that you try to engage them in a conversation around a certain topic, they always revert to quoting their favorite dead philosopher(s). It’s either quoting the founding fathers in order to reference modern politics, the bible when talking about philosophy, or in this case, Karl Marx when talking about gender.

    Yes, Marx, interesting fellow. Wrote some very interesting things about social and economic theory. However, dare I say, he is not the magical solution to every question or argument.

    I think it reflects poorly on one’s critical thinking skills to use the same dead man as a crutch in an argument.

  107. Improbable Joe says:

    Oh no, I chose not to starve and/or freeze to death, so I’m an oppressor.

    Daisy, there’s something seriously broken in your thinking. I live in America. I got laid off a couple of years ago and haven’t found any work that pays more than the gas to and fro, so I don’t drive except to buy groceries once every two weeks. I’ve sold off most of my personal belongings, up to and including old clothing. I’m wrapped in a blanket because I can’t afford to run the heat too much. Tonight my wife and I split a can of beans and a cup of rice for dinner. We’re up to our eyeballs in debt with almost nothing to show for it.

    Maybe I would feel better if I felt like I was oppressing someone, because it seems to make you feel awesome to proclaim that you do. The reality is that the same folks with the huge carbon footprints that are oppressing people overseas aren’t doing me any fucking favors either.

  108. Darque and Joe, our standard of living, the one that allows us to type on these contraptions and talk to each other, while these contraptions were likely made by slave labor, is what I refer to. As bad as we have it (and I am unemployed also), this means other areas of the world have it much worse, at our expense.

    Does this mean the answer to my questions is “no”–and you do not believe you have, say, white or straight privilege? Just trying to get a head count.

    Darque: I think it reflects poorly on one’s critical thinking skills to use the same dead man as a crutch in an argument.

    If some of the living men on this thread, such as yourself, had any critical thinking skills and didn’t use ancient, reactionary sexist arguments that I thought were long-discredited, I wouldn’t have to.

    Move up to Foucault if you must, but please get a clue.

  109. AB says:

    @Danny:

    If in your example the nobility is being executed because they are nobility then I would be willing to call it classism. Others would probably call it “justice” or “revolution” but by the definition of doing something to members of a groups because they are that group is an -ism as well as those other colorful words.

    I’m talking about war here, not revolution. The peasants have no say in it, the only people in power are the nobility. And the victorious nobility needs to get rid of the defeated nobility in order to take over the land. They don’t execute the peasants because they want subjects to tend the land, but they execute many nobles because they’re in the way. Of course, in real life there are often things like ransoms and compromises to consider, but it’s definitely not unheard of kill the ruler of a land but let other inhabitants live. And taking it further, it’s definitely not uncommon to kill people but spare their cattle.

    Hold up. Maybe I’m out of mind here but I get the feeling that we are about get to arguing over what is and is not sexism. We’ve done this before. The very definition of sexism is one of those things where you just can’t please everyone.

    Oh no you don’t. I’ve had to listen to that “There’s no wage gab, women just choose different jobs because they’re so privileged and have so many more options”-crap too often here to buy that we shouldn’t discuss the definition of sexism.

  110. Darque says:

    Good, at least you didn’t quote Marx or Engels this time. I’ll quit the argument now and call that a victory :).

  111. tovyasagain says:

    I think the (I’m not quoting, stating my opinion about this approach)”If you aren’t 100% part of the solution you are part of the problem” approach is unproductive at best. For example, the “Think you can eat meat and still care about the environment? You’re WRONG” posters my college campus had didn’t reduce meat consumption. The “This is how eating meat hurts the environment, try reducing how much you eat!” campaign actually had an impact on meat consumption.

    @Daisy
    So your quote, “Joe, but do you eat meat? Drive a car? Buy things in stores? You can start there. Of course, if you think everything is fine, there is no reason for you to start, right? Must be nice!”… that isn’t how it works. Not everyone has power just because of their gender or class. Sure, a tall, white, cis-gendered male born into wealth can do a hell of a lot of good or bad. But not everyone can, and blaming them for the decisions of said male isn’t going to change that. [Hell, not eating meat alone can have significant economic impact – maybe not if you have time to prepare balanced meals (and enough forward-economic power to buy some ingredients in larger quantities), but if you don’t have time because you’re working 18 hour days… even being able to go vegetarian is a sort of economic privilege, with the costs meat tends to have].

    It doesn’t matter how dedicated or focused he is, the homeless guy who hangs out down the street from me isn’t going to be able to make the slightest impact on whether America goes to war or not. That doesn’t mean he can’t try to impact the world, but if the best he can do is show compassion to everyone he meets, *that isn’t a bad thing*, and that *doesn’t* make him responsible for the decisions of those in power, whether he shares gender or race with said person. [And this is all discounting the fact that not everyone is even capable of being assertive or has the social confidence for activism].

    Activism needs people who are really passionate like you, certainly. But looking down on people who aren’t activists doesn’t usually help – ideas and opinions tend to be contagious, so simply *meaning well* will and does make a difference, in the long term. If I hear someone denounce some sort of discrimination or bias, I’m not going to think “Well, what the hell are you doing to make a difference?” – I’m going to think “Well, that’s one more pebble to make a ripple in the pond… hope they raise their kids with that attitude”.

  112. Danny says:

    AB:
    I’m talking about war here, not revolution. The peasants have no say in it, the only people in power are the nobility. And the victorious nobility needs to get rid of the defeated nobility in order to take over the land. They don’t execute the peasants because they want subjects to tend the land, but they execute many nobles because they’re in the way. Of course, in real life there are often things like ransoms and compromises to consider, but it’s definitely not unheard of kill the ruler of a land but let other inhabitants live. And taking it further, it’s definitely not uncommon to kill people but spare their cattle.
    Either way why were those defeated nobility killed? Because they were nobility. When a ruling power comes in people are killed, enslaved, etc… many times based on some characterstic. As you say the peasants are spared because their usefulness is in tending the land of the new rulers. The defeated nobility is a threat, no ifs ands or buts about it. Leaving them alive means the chance of them rising again. They are of no use to the ruling power other than their execution serving a “We run this now.” gesture.

    Oh no you don’t. I’ve had to listen to that “There’s no wage gab, women just choose different jobs because they’re so privileged and have so many more options”-crap too often here to buy that we shouldn’t discuss the definition of sexism.
    Contrary to what you may have already decided I wasn’t trying to shut you out but fine then lets talk about it. Let’s start with the basics. What’s your definition of sexism?

  113. Daisy wrote:

    I was trying to provide that “larger social picture”–since I was also startled he said he didn’t believe in one. OMG, really? (Do even political bloggers in liberal places like Oregon really not think about how war comes about and the “larger social picture”? No wonder we’re in trouble.)

    I do believe there is a larger social picture which can answer some questions, like “why is the US at war so much?” However, I’m not certain that “which sex is more oppressed, women or men” is a question that has such an answer. Nor do I think it’s a useful question to ask.

    (I do think it’s meaningful and important that most of the people in positions of authority in society are men. By that measuring stick, women are definitely the more oppressed class. But I don’t think that’s the only measuring stick, or the only important measuring stick, although I do think it is AN important measuring stick.)

    Answer to Barry–

    Why are the “men in a war torn village” executed? Does this mean the women were separated out? And for what? Rape? Or does he mean (as I assumed, I could be wrong) SOLDIERS are specifically being executed? My point is that men run wars, always have and still are. Women are not “represented” in wars. War is not usually an axis of sexist oppression, except as fallout, or what is brutally referred to as “collateral damage”. (“women and children”–children are not represented in war either)

    Thanks for your answer.

    To clarify, I didn’t mean soldiers. I was talking about a situation in which all the men of a village, except for the very young and the very old, are rounded up and killed. (There are many documented cases of this happening.)

    The reason to do this is to prevent the men from becoming soldiers. Nonetheless, what happens is that the men are singled out according to their sex, and murdered. To me, that’s an obvious systematic harm that happens primarily to men.

    (I don’t in any way deny that other systematic harms — such as mass rape — happen primarily to women).

    I’m not sure what you mean by “axis of sexist oppression.” To me, “axis” means lynch pin; it means the core event that shapes the paths other events move along. It’s that what you mean, then I’d say, war can be an axis of sexist oppression. In general, the people pressed into service as soldiers are men; that’s sexist. When there is sex-selective mass slaughter, the people slaughtered are usually men; that’s sexist. Mass rapes, such as MacKinnon has written about, generally happen to women; that’s sexist. Etc, etc.

    One must look for the oppression axis in any given situation. Women are not even in this situation, as “prime movers”. Do you agree that women do not run countries and religions? Then we are not the prime movers and we are patently unable to oppress men in war.

    I never said women were oppressing men (in war or elsewhere). I think men are oppressed as men, but I don’t think women are the oppressors.

    It’s true, as you say, that the people doing the murdering are also men. But, obviously, that doesn’t make being selected by sex and slaughtered less oppressive for those being slaughtered.

    The men killed in these places are therefore oppressed BY COLONIALISM, not by sexism, unless you want to get into this whole political/philosophical inquisition about how intrinsic sexism is to colonialism (and yes, I’ve been there, and I can go there, if you want).

    This makes it sound like colonialism and sexism are an either/or choice; people are oppressed by one or the other, but not by both. But I don’t think that’s an accurate way of looking at things. I think people can be oppressed along multiple lines at once, and the oppressions — far from being mutually exclusive — are often mutually reinforcing.

    So yes, slaughtered male victims aren’t victims ONLY of sexism. The reasons they were slaughtered may have to do with their ethnicity, with their class, and with other factors. But ONE of the factors is sexism. And they ARE victims of sexism.

  114. AB says:

    @Danny:

    Either way why were those defeated nobility killed? Because they were nobility. When a ruling power comes in people are killed, enslaved, etc… many times based on some characterstic. As you say the peasants are spared because their usefulness is in tending the land of the new rulers. The defeated nobility is a threat, no ifs ands or buts about it. Leaving them alive means the chance of them rising again. They are of no use to the ruling power other than their execution serving a “We run this now.” gesture.

    Exactly. But the question is, is nobility killing nobility an example of classism? Is people killing people and keeping the cattle alive an example of speciesism? How about the Gor novels, which are filled both with speeches about how it’s women’s nature to be slaves and serve men, but also have damsels in distress getting rescued?

    Or to add a different aspect, women in Denmark don’t live as long as women in many less equal (and less wealthy) countries. Experts say that of the biggest reasons for this is that women have taken over many of the bad habits which were previously reserved for men, such as smoking and drinking alcohol. According to some people here, men’s shorter life expectancy is an example of misandry and oppression of men. But that begs the question, when women’s life expectancy is shortened, even when it’s because they get more freedom and more luxuries, is that an example of misogyny and oppression of women?

    What I’m objecting to is tracing every single bad thing that happens to men anywhere back to some claim that men aren’t held in as high regard as women. Adult men getting killed in war is terrible. Depending on the definition, arguably more terrible than women (and sometimes children) getting raped, mutilated, or enslaved. But I seriously doubt that the men who made the decision to kill those other men decided to settle for just raping the women because they’re so chivalrous and have so much compassion and respect for the female sex.

    Contrary to what you may have already decided I wasn’t trying to shut you out but fine then lets talk about it. Let’s start with the basics. What’s your definition of sexism?

    Didn’t say you were trying to shut me out especially, just that no-one seemed to care to stop it when it’s alleged that bad things which happen to women aren’t sexism. As for a definition of sexism, that’s a bit harder because I’m not of the school which denies that there are inborn statistical differences between the sexes (I just believe that focussing on it is usually detrimental), so for me it would be decided on a case-by-case basis, just as I would decide the line between observing significant cultural differences and being nationalistic.

  115. tovyasagain says:

    @AB
    “Or to add a different aspect, women in Denmark don’t live as long as women in many less equal (and less wealthy) countries. Experts say that of the biggest reasons for this is that women have taken over many of the bad habits which were previously reserved for men, such as smoking and drinking alcohol. ”

    Except they’re being compared to *women* in other countries, not men in their own country. If the only issue is smoking and drinking views in Denmark, that could imply not that women were oppressed, but that now they are on the same social level (expected to drink/smoke) as men were in their country, when it comes to those particular norms.

    The first google result I was able to find on Denmark life expectancy (I didn’t spend a lot of time, admittedly) indicated that Men lost 2 months average life expectancy primarily due to liver cirhossis (compared to men in other European countries), and Women lost one month compared to women in other European countries.

    If women’s shorter life expectancy is the result of gendered expectations of behavior and stoicism, that would certainly be sexism and the negative impact of gendered expectations – but if it was instead a society-wide attitude towards alcohol and drugs, it isn’t. Then, it’s just an issue with the attitudes of the country as a whole, and has nothing to do with gender. “Women in X country have a shorter life expectancy than Women in Y country” doesn’t mean anything, if there’s also a “*People* in X country have a shorter life expectancy than people in Y country”.

  116. Danny says:

    AB:
    Exactly. But the question is, is nobility killing nobility an example of classism? Is people killing people and keeping the cattle alive an example of speciesism? How about the Gor novels, which are filled both with speeches about how it’s women’s nature to be slaves and serve men, but also have damsels in distress getting rescued?
    I’d say yes on the nobility. I supposed you could say that about the people/cattle thing too. Not familiar with the Gor novels from what you say here I’d call that sexism against women.

    According to some people here, men’s shorter life expectancy is an example of misandry and oppression of men.
    I would disagree that the shorter life expectancy is misandry in and of itself. Where I think that comes in is despite the difference people still act like with it comes to health care its all about the menz. Or not caring about that gap. Or to the extreme an article I saw a while back where the writer recommended that men should put off retirement a few extra years in order leave more to their wives with they die..

    But that begs the question, when women’s life expectancy is shortened, even when it’s because they get more freedom and more luxuries, is that an example of misogyny and oppression of women?
    In an ideal world the life expectancy of women would go up, just as it would for men…I hope. In and of itself I’d say not, however as I said with men if it starts dropping and its getting dismissed or pushed aside then yes misogyny would be in effect. Personally I’d like to work on getting men’s expectancy up and if in the event women’s expectancies did start dropping we might have something to work from.

    As for a definition of sexism, that’s a bit harder because I’m not of the school which denies that there are inborn statistical differences between the sexes (I just believe that focussing on it is usually detrimental), so for me it would be decided on a case-by-case basis, just as I would decide the line between observing significant cultural differences and being nationalistic.
    Case by case basis you say. I take that to mean that in each given case you would look for things that could possibly disqualify that case as an instance of sexism? Could I ask what such things would be or is that too wide of a question without an actual case to look at? (If that’s the case then I’ll let it go before getting bogged down in “how about this?” “or that” “okay what’s up with this one?”.)

  117. AB says:

    @tovyasagain:

    Except they’re being compared to *women* in other countries, not men in their own country. If the only issue is smoking and drinking views in Denmark, that could imply not that women were oppressed, but that now they are on the same social level (expected to drink/smoke) as men were in their country, when it comes to those particular norms.

    Doesn’t matter. If the shorter average lifespan of men is proof in itself that men are oppressed and subjected to misandry, then it is implied that a shorter lifespan is the result of oppression. So when women’s average lifespan decreases, shouldn’t that be an indication of an increase in misoygyny?

    If women’s shorter life expectancy is the result of gendered expectations of behavior and stoicism, that would certainly be sexism and the negative impact of gendered expectations – but if it was instead a society-wide attitude towards alcohol and drugs, it isn’t. Then, it’s just an issue with the attitudes of the country as a whole, and has nothing to do with gender. “Women in X country have a shorter life expectancy than Women in Y country” doesn’t mean anything, if there’s also a “*People* in X country have a shorter life expectancy than people in Y country”.

    No, but from what I’ve heard, the difference between Danish men and women is smaller than in other countries (though our life expectancy is getting better, so I suspect there’s less of a gab now than when i first heard about it in the late 90s). If part of this is too many smokes and too much alcohol, is that oppression and misogyny? Or just oppression, since it applies equally to both sexes?

  118. AB says:

    @Danny:

    I’d say yes on the nobility. I supposed you could say that about the people/cattle thing too. Not familiar with the Gor novels from what you say here I’d call that sexism against women.

    And that raises the question if sexism is per definition misandry/misogyny and oppression. Most of what I hear called misandry here is about how men aren’t respected enough, or believed to be competent enough, or adored enough, or valuable enough etc., and that just doesn’t fit those scenarios. Not even the part about not being valued, since potential soldiers are often very valuable to nations at war.

    I would disagree that the shorter life expectancy is misandry in and of itself. Where I think that comes in is despite the difference people still act like with it comes to health care its all about the menz. Or not caring about that gap. Or to the extreme an article I saw a while back where the writer recommended that men should put off retirement a few extra years in order leave more to their wives with they die..

    If people die because of their lifestyles, there’s very little to do that doesn’t come off as moralising. A lot of the shorter life expectancy also seems to come from more men/boys dying at a young age, including from things like traffic accidents. Again, not a whole lot to do except lecturing and moralising. From what I can see here, there is some degree of unhealthy habits being considered masculine, such as drinking way too much alcohol and not eating vegetables, but I don’t see men pressured into it to such a high degree. Perhaps it’s different in the USA.

    In an ideal world the life expectancy of women would go up, just as it would for men…I hope. In and of itself I’d say not, however as I said with men if it starts dropping and its getting dismissed or pushed aside then yes misogyny would be in effect.

    I disagree here. I’ve heard a lot about Danish women are unhealthy compared to other women, and while I find the comparison with foreign women to be a bit sexist (against women for being held to higher standards, and against men for being held to lower standards), most of it is just a conclusion. Danish women smoke (or at least used to smoke) a lot, and experts point out that it reduces their life expectancy. If they were denied treatment for lung cancer I could see the problem, but pointing it out is not a big deal.

    Case by case basis you say. I take that to mean that in each given case you would look for things that could possibly disqualify that case as an instance of sexism? Could I ask what such things would be or is that too wide of a question without an actual case to look at? (If that’s the case then I’ll let it go before getting bogged down in “how about this?” “or that” “okay what’s up with this one?”.)

    One example could be killing female infants. If a society is completely dependant on hunting/fishing for large game, and there’s a period of starvation, and possibly a shortage of men as it is, I could see how, from a purely pragmatic POW, it could be necessary for survival under extreme conditions. But in cases where it’s a tradition that the woman moves in with the man and his parents, working for them her whole adult life, while her own parents gets no compensation for the resources used to raise her (and sometimes even have to pay a dowry), it would instead be institutionalised sexism.

    If the potential soldiers in a war are killed off to prevent an uprising, it’s evil and tragic, but I’m not sure I’d call it sexism. It’s not placing one sex above the other, and it’s not untrue stereotyping, it’s just removing the biggest threat. In the same vein, if someone decides that a gay man is less of a threat in some medieval family feud than his straight brothers, because he’s not as likely to get heirs, I’m not sure I’d call it heterophobia if the straight people were targeted first.

    But then again, perhaps I just view threats as different from other dilemmas. I mean, if I walked through an immigrant neighbourhood where I knew crime was high and there was a lot of hostility against white people, I wouldn’t call myself racist for being more careful and suspicious of strangers. But if I caught myself thinking that the only reason so many immigrants live in these areas in the first place is that they’re lazy or something like that, I’d call it racist in a heartbeat.

  119. Darque says:

    Isn’t there a direct analogy to the lifespan gap with that of the wage gap?

  120. Danny says:

    AB:
    Most of what I hear called misandry here is about how men aren’t respected enough, or believed to be competent enough, or adored enough, or valuable enough etc., and that just doesn’t fit those scenarios. Not even the part about not being valued, since potential soldiers are often very valuable to nations at war.
    So some men having value as potential soldier cancelled out not being valued? Perhaps it changes it to “only valued for what they provide”?

    I disagree here. I’ve heard a lot about Danish women are unhealthy compared to other women, and while I find the comparison with foreign women to be a bit sexist (against women for being held to higher standards, and against men for being held to lower standards), most of it is just a conclusion. Danish women smoke (or at least used to smoke) a lot, and experts point out that it reduces their life expectancy. If they were denied treatment for lung cancer I could see the problem, but pointing it out is not a big deal.
    Hold on. When I said, “In and of itself I’d say not…” that’s what I meant, or at least thought I was saying. The existence of the gap in and of itself isn’t misogyny/misandry. Its when the gap exists and its being actively denied/ignored (as you say with your ” If they were denied treatment for lung cancer I could see the problem…”). that the problems start.

    If the potential soldiers in a war are killed off to prevent an uprising, it’s evil and tragic, but I’m not sure I’d call it sexism. It’s not placing one sex above the other, and it’s not untrue stereotyping, it’s just removing the biggest threat.
    To me it is, just as keeping the women in sexual slavery would be. Because they were killed because they were men (as the women were kept in sexual slavery because they were women). By this line of logic the “biggest threat” is being determined solely on gender (which I think is a big mistake myself). They are basically acting with the thought, “Woman? Sex slave. Man? Firing Squad (or maybe Make him join us under threat of death if he’s young enough).”

    I mean, if I walked through an immigrant neighbourhood where I knew crime was high and there was a lot of hostility against white people, I wouldn’t call myself racist for being more careful and suspicious of strangers.
    Now if you were walking around thinking that everyone in that neighborhood was going to attack and any other white person (ie jumping to a presumption of worst faith…) I’d say its a problem and then say, started protesting to city hall to get rid of them (….and then acting on it) there’d be a big problem.

  121. AB says:

    @Darque:

    Isn’t there a direct analogy to the lifespan gap with that of the wage gap?

    Sure, if you assume that all the women reporting discrimination at work are lying, that all the studies which find that men and women are evaluated differently (usually to men’s advantage) when their performances and qualifications are the same are false, that the tendency for employers to avoid hiring women of childbearing age doesn’t exist, etc., etc..

    Or if you started to actually list some reasons for men’s shorter life expectancy that weren’t linked to biology, unhealthy habits, increased risk taking behaviour etc., etc.. I guess breast cancer vs. prostrate cancer would count, though I’m not sure I’d label it sexism, at least not in the same people usually do.

  122. Solo says:

    @AB
    1) Not sure where you are getting these life expectancy numbers, but life expectancy for both Danish men and women has increased for every single year of the last three decades.

    2) The Danish gender gap is 4.5 years, two years under the OECD average. Mind you, this average includes gender gaps of over a decade(!) in some OECD nations. It isn’t unusual and is in line with ‘Old Europe’.

    3) The Danish-OECD gap for women is 7 months(Danish women die early). The Danish gender gap is 55 months. The gaps aren’t comparable.

    FTR, I don’t think that life expectancy differences are necessarily indicative of sexism, though I don’t like the fact that this gap isn’t considered an important issue by a lot of gender-equality people (sadly not even by a lot of self-identifying MRAs). For instance, the 2007 EU report on population group health pointed out that there was a depressing lack of government policies targeting men’s health issues. So, they got together in Brussels to discuss the EU’s strategy on health care and “to take into account and integrate the gender dimension”. The Council’s minutes were titled “Council conclusions on women’s health”, You can guess what they focused on.

  123. AB says:

    @Danny:

    So some men having value as potential soldier cancelled out not being valued? Perhaps it changes it to “only valued for what they provide”?

    No, being valued as a soldier is being valued. Men aren’t killed off because they have no value period, they’re killed off because they’re too valuable for the other side.

    Hold on. When I said, “In and of itself I’d say not…” that’s what I meant, or at least thought I was saying. The existence of the gap in and of itself isn’t misogyny/misandry. Its when the gap exists and its being actively denied/ignored (as you say with your ” If they were denied treatment for lung cancer I could see the problem…”). that the problems start.

    But are men denied access to treatments for illnesses that women are treated for?

    To me it is, just as keeping the women in sexual slavery would be. Because they were killed because they were men (as the women were kept in sexual slavery because they were women). By this line of logic the “biggest threat” is being determined solely on gender (which I think is a big mistake myself). They are basically acting with the thought, “Woman? Sex slave. Man? Firing Squad (or maybe Make him join us under threat of death if he’s young enough).”

    I’d say it’s oppression towards a whole people, not sexism. If they’d killed the men because they thought men were too noble to be enslaved and deserved a clean death, or if they’d let the women live because it’s dishonourable to kill women, it would be more clearly sexist. But in the cases we talk about here, it’s usually just about inflicting as much damage as possible, and if traumatising and impregnating the women works better than killing them, I wont say it’s a personal attack on either sex. Then again, it’s so horrible that it really doesn’t matter either way.

  124. Darque says:

    Even if men aren’t outright denied access to treatments for illnesses that women are treated for, don’t you think that this means that the gap is somewhat worth investigating? Fixing? How can we find injustice and correct it if the knee-jerk reaction always tends to be, “Well, I don’t see it, therefore it doesn’t exist.”

    Fyi, I think there is a paygap, and it’s worth fixing. What I’m asking you, is if you have a similar committment to men’s issues? (or at least, aknowledgment that they’re worth investigating.)

  125. AB says:

    Solo, I didn’t say the Danish life expectancy wasn’t good or increasing, just that there was a smaller gap between the sexes than in many other countries (especially the ones we usually compare ourselves to), and that this didn’t seem to be a result of oppression or misogyny. I don’t really care, I’m just curious if a decreased life expectancy (compared to what it ‘should’ be given the living standards) as a result of unhealthy habits can be called sexist.

    Also, while there often isn’t as much focus on men’s health as women’s, “men’s health” is frequently equated with “people’s health”. One example here in Denmark is that heart and vascular diseases are more common among men, but often end up killing more women, at least partly because they don’t get the right treatment. It’s not categorised under “men’s health”, but the vast majority of studies done on these diseases and the treatment for them are done on men, and doctors are better at diagnosing men, leading to an inequality in treatment arising without any aid of any counsel about men’s health.

  126. tovyasagain says:

    @AB
    “Doesn’t matter. If the shorter average lifespan of men is proof in itself that men are oppressed and subjected to misandry, then it is implied that a shorter lifespan is the result of oppression. So when women’s average lifespan decreases, shouldn’t that be an indication of an increase in misoygyny?”

    Not when the context is “Men have a shorter lifespan than women” and then the opposing point is “Women have a shorter lifespan than these other women”. You’ve changed the context from comparing gender within a culture to comparing culture itself. You can’t go “In X culture women live 65 years, men live 64, then in our culture women live 67 years, men live 66 – women in X culture are oppressed because they live less than women in our culture!” In any sort of scenario that crosses both gender *and* culture, context is exceptionally important.

    Bringing up Women in Denmark is a red herring if the reason those women face a shorter lfiespan is because they conform to otherwise traditionally masculine ideals – feeling obligated to smoke or drink, for example.

  127. tovyasagain says:

    @AB

    Sorry, my response didn’t take into account your most recent comment – guess the last time I refreshed this page was before that post.

    “I don’t really care, I’m just curious if a decreased life expectancy (compared to what it ‘should’ be given the living standards) as a result of unhealthy habits can be called sexist.”

    If those unhealthy habits are the result of gender norms, I think it’s fair – I know I’ve got a scar I wouldn’t otherwise have, because I figured “Other people deserve the emergency room more than me, I shouldn’t waste their resources if I can deal with my injury” – it didn’t occur to me at the time, but it was pretty cliche attempt-to-be-masculine. And I’d be really surprised if there weren’t gendered expectations relating to smoking and drinking in the country you’re talking about.

  128. Danny says:

    AB:
    No, being valued as a soldier is being valued. Men aren’t killed off because they have no value period, they’re killed off because they’re too valuable for the other side.
    I can get with that. So does this apply to women as well?

    But are men denied access to treatments for illnesses that women are treated for?
    I’m not sure how it is in Denmark but in the States its “understood” that breast cancer is something women get. Not too long ago a man in the States was denied insurance coverage for breast cancer treatment because he’s a man. About a year or two ago one of out military bases was discovered to have had contaminated water the contamination dated back 30 years (try to imagine how many people come and go on a military base over 30 years). Its been discovered that a lot of the men who were on that base during that time span have been diagnosed with breast cancer and even some of those men have stories about how they we’ve been dismissed, because “men don’t get breast cancer”.

    Mental health is another big one. Most of what you see when it comes to talking about depression, suicide, etc… is usually featuring women (or at least what I see)….despite men being more likely to successfully commit suicide and if I’m not mistaken in the States boys are more likely be diagnosed with mental disorders. On this one its no so much being denied treatment than, I guess, not wanting to talk about it (which I suppose could be the same thing).

    But in the cases we talk about here, it’s usually just about inflicting as much damage as possible, and if traumatising and impregnating the women works better than killing them, I wont say it’s a personal attack on either sex. Then again, it’s so horrible that it really doesn’t matter either way.
    Interesting. Often times I come across people who think neither case would be sexism or (and more commonly) will argue to the death that one is and other isn’t. I myself see them both as sexism. One who would it possible that neither is sexism…

  129. AB says:

    @Darque:

    Even if men aren’t outright denied access to treatments for illnesses that women are treated for, don’t you think that this means that the gap is somewhat worth investigating? Fixing? How can we find injustice and correct it if the knee-jerk reaction always tends to be, “Well, I don’t see it, therefore it doesn’t exist.”

    First, I’m more interested in finding out where the complaint is. The vast majority of times, all I hear is “Men don’t live as long as women so stop complaining”, or alternatively “Men don’t live as long as women and it’s feminism’s fault”. It would be nice if people could be a little more concrete, instead of citing the difference as proof of a general sexism against men which was then again used to justify demands in various other areas (usually “Women need to have sex with me”).

    And it’s hard to figure out when the standards for what constitutes sexism are as fluid as they are right now. I’ve been subjected to a lot of things which would have been labelled sexism if they’d happened to a man instead, and I’m not quite how I feel about it yet. So I’m not sure I can take a stand either way right now.

  130. AB says:

    @tovyasagain:

    If those unhealthy habits are the result of gender norms, I think it’s fair – I know I’ve got a scar I wouldn’t otherwise have, because I figured “Other people deserve the emergency room more than me, I shouldn’t waste their resources if I can deal with my injury” – it didn’t occur to me at the time, but it was pretty cliche attempt-to-be-masculine. And I’d be really surprised if there weren’t gendered expectations relating to smoking and drinking in the country you’re talking about.

    That’s funny, because I’ve often postponed going to the doctor because I wanted to make sure whatever ailed me wasn’t something which would have gone away by itself. Once a guy remarked that I limped slightly, and I said I’d had some problems with my foot but I wanted to see if it wouldn’t pass, and he said that it was a very male way of looking at it, not wanting to waste public healthcare, and thinking about others. And I was really surprised he thought self-sacrifice was manly, because I’d grown up with the role of putting others above yourself being feminine, and the men I’d seen not taking care of their health were usually either lazy or trying to show off.

  131. Darque says:

    The complaint is that men die at younger ages than women because of social stigmas surrounding masculinity and stoicism, increased risk taking, and self-destructive behaviors like excessive smoking and drinking. (not to mention mental health and suicide) Do I need to further elaborate the complaint for you, or do you get it yet?

  132. D says:

    @AB

    Here’s an article on the subject . http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1827162,00.html, with at least one expert suggesting that much of the difference is cultural. Shockingly, feminists are not to blame, unless they are force-feeding men red meat and cigarettes.

    And I didn’t want to use it to demand anything other than “Let’s not dismiss the idea of ‘sexism hurts men too’ with a dismissive comparison to the idea that white people can’t dance.”

    ” I’ve been subjected to a lot of things which would have been labelled sexism if they’d happened to a man instead.”

    I, obviously can’t speak for you but I think I can somewhat relate, as much as someone from another country with vastly different life experiences can. I have a less than healthy perception of my body, part of which is due, no doubt to a cultural pressure to have a ‘perfect’ body. But I can’t really understand how a woman of my cultural background with body issues would feel, because (it’s my perception that) greater pressure tends to be placed on women to ‘look good.’ Just because I have body issues, doesn’t mean that sexism doesn’t play a role in a woman facing a superficially similar, greater, pressure to ‘look good.’

  133. Danny says:

    And I was really surprised he thought self-sacrifice was manly, because I’d grown up with the role of putting others above yourself being feminine, and the men I’d seen not taking care of their health were usually either lazy or trying to show off.
    Its true that “putting others above yourself” can be seen as either masculine or feminine (but I can see where that friend of you thinking it was manly). Most of the guys I see not taking care of their health do so because they try to tough it out even when something is seriously wrong because they they don’t have the insurance, or don’t want to risk missing work, or can’t afford to miss work, etc… But yes that bravado “just walk it off, be a man about it” toughness (that I think you’re calling showing off) does factor into it sometimes as well.

    I held off on a bad wisdom tooth for nearly 10 years because I had no health insurance. Finally got it about 2 years ago, found out how much it was even with insurance, and basically put it off for about another year. And even then the only reason I was able to do it was because I qualified for a line of credit with my dental office.

  134. Jay Generally says:

    Oh… It’s sexism. Maybe just lower case ‘s’ sexism, tho’.

    Ahem.

    Merriam Websters:
    1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
    2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

    If you think only men can be soldiers, you’re a sexist. It doesn’t even matter if you’re right or not. (Hint: not)

    Is it misandry? Maybe not. That’s where the practicality vs. motivation arguement comes in. Besides, the survivors are also victims of sexism, unless this is some village where the women, children, and eldery dance in the street now that their reproductive aged menfolk are dead; and/or their culture and economy experience some sort of fantastic boom.

    Sexism? Yes. Oppression? Well, if this was an excessive abuse of power or authority it would be, so probably yes. Oppression based on sexism? Hmmm. I don’t think so, personally. I mean, I see the dead as oppressed, the survivors as oppressed, and the soldiers themselves as likely oppressed even as they’re instruments of oppression. So, yes, the oppressor is probably imperialism, colonialism, genocidal racism, militarianism, expansionism, classism, or some other force. But they are are using sexism in their decision making policies.

    I can see why some people would rather not label a diamond a facet, but be careful about implying that facets don’t exist or that a discussion of the facet can’t be had because diamonds are more important.

    In conclusion, or ‘tl;dr’ if you prefer, those men are victims of sexism, but were not oppressed by sexism. Have I disagreed with everyone, yet? 🙂

  135. AB says:

    @Danny:

    I can get with that. So does this apply to women as well?

    Of course. I’ve been one of the people most strongly objecting the idea that women should be privileged because they’re valued as assets for somebody else. It’s usually not a good position to be in.

    I’m not sure how it is in Denmark but in the States its “understood” that breast cancer is something women get. Not too long ago a man in the States was denied insurance coverage for breast cancer treatment because he’s a man.

    With public healthcare, we don’t have the same problems with insurances. I think I’ve said it once already, but I read an article about men with breast cancer, and while I thought it was going to be about how the illness wasn’t discovered early enough, or how all the treatments were tested on women and didn’t have the same effect on men, but it turned out the biggest complaint from one of them was that his medicine didn’t come in special man-packages where there were no references to the menstrual cycle among the side-effects.

    Mental health is another big one. Most of what you see when it comes to talking about depression, suicide, etc… is usually featuring women (or at least what I see)….despite men being more likely to successfully commit suicide and if I’m not mistaken in the States boys are more likely be diagnosed with mental disorders. On this one its no so much being denied treatment than, I guess, not wanting to talk about it (which I suppose could be the same thing).

    I recently saw an add about stress featuring a man, and I’m sure I’ve seen some about depression before. I think the coverage of mental illnesses in general is a bit more balanced here. I only ever hear about men from the USA (how they’re not getting enough help, how they falsely diagnosed with ADHD, etc.), except when it comes to eating disorders, whereas the problems for women (such as not getting diagnosed because their symptoms don’t match, not being discovered because they don’t create as much trouble etc.) sometimes get covered here. But then again, maybe I’ve just been exposed to more Danish material about the subject.

  136. Solo says:

    @AB:
    You are half right on the CVD issue. As far as I remember CVD mortality is more for men than women at every age group (usually by 1.5x) and controlling for circumstances they are more likely to have a heart attack as well as die of a heart attack once they have one. The issue is that CVD mortality is highest in the 75+ age group and women outnumber men in that group 3 to 1. It’s really a case of more (old) women dying of CVD because the men are already dead of everything else.

    You are also correct about the value of men as soldiers and the reasons for them being killed. I completely agree that it’s hard to apply misandric motives to the killers, especially when the majority of this happens under conditions where misogyny is also prevalent if not dominant. The problem is how we treat this stuff in the west in our news media and aid campaigns. It’s not uncommon to read something to the effect of “Women suffer the most because they have to live after the conflict”. Again women suffer because the men are already dead.

    None of this means the west is some sort of miserable matriarchy or that women don’t get the short end of the stick. In a lot of areas it is incorrectly assumed women need extra help, while men don’t. Even in areas like health care where differences are huge (Ozy’s law). I’ve wondered what’s down to sexism and what isn’t and by now I’ve considered too hard to answer and not useful enough, but a lot of people use ‘sexism’ as a catch all reason for any difference across gender lines. My rule is “If it affects more than 1% of the population, it better be matched across gender, race, religion, nationality and everything else, or there’s a problem somewhere, and I don’t care what it’s called”.

    In the end I think you and I agree that men die way earlier than women, that it isn’t women pushing them into the grave. Would you agree that this is something where men need extra help catching up to what women (through better habits) have shown to be attainable?

  137. Jay Generally says:

    @ Danny

    I’m going through the exact same thing with the wisdom tooth right now. It’s not that I can’t afford it, by itself, but my wife and my kids have medical issues they need taken care of also. How do you decide who goes first, y’know?

  138. Solo says:

    @Jay, Danny
    How much money/time does it cost to pull a tooth? Get in that dentist’s chair and cut the dental care gender gap!

  139. AB says:

    @D:

    Here’s an article on the subject . http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1827162,00.html, with at least one expert suggesting that much of the difference is cultural. Shockingly, feminists are not to blame, unless they are force-feeding men red meat and cigarettes.

    Thank you.

    And I didn’t want to use it to demand anything other than “Let’s not dismiss the idea of ‘sexism hurts men too’ with a dismissive comparison to the idea that white people can’t dance.”

    Actually, some of the things I’ve seen black people say about white people on American TV have been really off-putting for me, and I wouldn’t doubt for a second that anyone white finding themselves outnumbered in a crowd like that could be the subject of racial bullying. But then again, it could be a cultural difference.

    I, obviously can’t speak for you but I think I can somewhat relate, as much as someone from another country with vastly different life experiences can. I have a less than healthy perception of my body, part of which is due, no doubt to a cultural pressure to have a ‘perfect’ body. But I can’t really understand how a woman of my cultural background with body issues would feel, because (it’s my perception that) greater pressure tends to be placed on women to ‘look good.’ Just because I have body issues, doesn’t mean that sexism doesn’t play a role in a woman facing a superficially similar, greater, pressure to ‘look good.’

    Well, for me, it’s more like I get to hear all these guys complaining about ladies’ night or some other way women get discounts in bars and how sexist it is, and then I go to the hairdresser and have to pay extra solely because I’m female. And while I’m complaining about the hairdresser, a friend of mine talks about this great hairdresser he goes to, who unfortunately only cuts men, while the TV news are running a story about this hotel being accused of discrimination because 20 of its 800 rooms are reserved especially to women.

    Also, I’m from a family where the women have worked every bit as much as the men for at least 4 generations, but every time I come here, I get to see the work of women like my mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother ignored, while people talk as if men made up all the workers and providers. And around the same time that happens, someone (usually the same person who’s just ignored the existence of most women in my family) will start talking about how the work of men is not appreciated enough.

  140. AB says:

    @Solo:

    @AB:
    You are half right on the CVD issue. As far as I remember CVD mortality is more for men than women at every age group (usually by 1.5x) and controlling for circumstances they are more likely to have a heart attack as well as die of a heart attack once they have one. The issue is that CVD mortality is highest in the 75+ age group and women outnumber men in that group 3 to 1. It’s really a case of more (old) women dying of CVD because the men are already dead of everything else.

    I looked it up, and the Danish numbers are slightly different. There are about the same number of men and women below the age of 65 diagnosed with CVDs as a long-term illness. There are less women than men dying below the age of 65, but more above (consistent with your numbers), and more women dying overall. More men have been hospitalised with CVDs as the main diagnosis.

    You are also correct about the value of men as soldiers and the reasons for them being killed. I completely agree that it’s hard to apply misandric motives to the killers, especially when the majority of this happens under conditions where misogyny is also prevalent if not dominant. The problem is how we treat this stuff in the west in our news media and aid campaigns. It’s not uncommon to read something to the effect of “Women suffer the most because they have to live after the conflict”. Again women suffer because the men are already dead.

    I agree that those statements are tasteless. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with giving aid to the living, especially the traumatised living with children in need, but there’s no need to downplay the significance of being killed.

    In the end I think you and I agree that men die way earlier than women, that it isn’t women pushing them into the grave. Would you agree that this is something where men need extra help catching up to what women (through better habits) have shown to be attainable?

    I think encouraging everyone to develop better habits is a good idea. If one group is more prone to engage in said habits, or more likely to suffer for it if they do, I see nothing wrong with targeting them specifically. I’m a bit curious about whether men in America are actually shamed into these habits, because I’ve never observed it happen here, but any lessening of pressure to conform to gender stereotypes is good in my book.

  141. Hugh Ristik says:

    @AB,

    If, during a war, the nobility is executed while the peasants and slaves are not, is it then oppression against said nobility? They’re targeted with a violence which the rest of society is not, so there must be some -ism at work. But which is it?

    Yes, that’s oppression, and it’s classism. “Classism” means discrimination based on class, which is usually upper class vs. lower class, but can often be the other way around due to revolutions.

    So if we’re to define sexism and oppression solely in terms of “Some bad things are more likely to happen to one group over another” and there are no degrees of oppression, then it would be an obvious conclusion that the aristocracy has always been just as oppressed as the peasantry.

    Not necessarily… it would depend on what the class upheaval looked like. “Just as” would be a tough conclusion to make. Even in a society with constant turmoil, where each class took turns murdering the other, the results might not be symmetrical. It would be most common that both the lower classes and upper classes are oppressed in different ways in such a culture, and it might be difficult to figure out who is “more” oppressed (unless one class gets mostly enslaved or murdered, which can happen to either upper or lower classes depending on where we are in history). If the units aren’t similar, you can’t make a comparison.

    Same thing with gender.

  142. Hugh Ristik says:

    @Barry,

    Great comment.

    However, I’m not certain that “which sex is more oppressed, women or men” is a question that has such an answer.

    That’s the conclusion I’ve come to. Now we just have to convince more feminists to stop thinking they have the answer.

    I do think it’s meaningful and important that most of the people in positions of authority in society are men. By that measuring stick, women are definitely the more oppressed class. But I don’t think that’s the only measuring stick, or the only important measuring stick, although I do think it is AN important measuring stick.

    To clarify, I didn’t mean soldiers. I was talking about a situation in which all the men of a village, except for the very young and the very old, are rounded up and killed. (There are many documented cases of this happening.)

    For those interested, check out this and this.

    It’s that what you mean, then I’d say, war can be an axis of sexist oppression. In general, the people pressed into service as soldiers are men; that’s sexist. When there is sex-selective mass slaughter, the people slaughtered are usually men; that’s sexist. Mass rapes, such as MacKinnon has written about, generally happen to women; that’s sexist. Etc, etc.

    I’ve used the concept of “dimensions of oppression” in a similar way.

    I never said women were oppressing men (in war or elsewhere). I think men are oppressed as men, but I don’t think women are the oppressors.

    That depends. In cases of violence, it does indeed seem that men are the direct agents of violence. However, why are men being violent? Perhaps they are trying to protect their families from real or perceived attack, gain resources to support their families, or gain status and resources to attract women.

    Just because the people doing a lot of the direct dirty work of oppression are male, it doesn’t necessarily mean that women aren’t oppressors. Women can be standing directly behind oppressive men, and in some cases egging them on, benefiting from oppression enacted by male agents, or even choosing the winners of male competitions as mates (which is violent and oppressive in many parts of the world).

    No, I’m not saying all women do this, and it’s less stark in the West. But worldwide, think of the male gangsters, criminals, and militants who have girlfriends and wives who are being protected by them, or profiting by them. Those women don’t necessarily like violence and oppression by men, but they like it when men bring home the bacon, and try not to think to much about where it comes from. That’s complicity.

    And no, I’m not saying it’s all women’s fault. In some parts of the world, it might be practically necessary for women to mate with men who engage in violence. What I’m just trying to show is how women are participants in violent and oppressive cultures, even when they aren’t the ones holding the rifles. The fact that men are more often agents of violent oppression doesn’t mean that women aren’t oppressors, it just means that they are a layer removed (think of how criminal bosses are a layer removed from doing the dirty work, because their henchmen do it for them).

    Men are most often the violent henchmen during oppression, but they are henchmen of cultures created by both men and women.

    I think people can be oppressed along multiple lines at once, and the oppressions — far from being mutually exclusive — are often mutually reinforcing.

    So yes, slaughtered male victims aren’t victims ONLY of sexism. The reasons they were slaughtered may have to do with their ethnicity, with their class, and with other factors. But ONE of the factors is sexism. And they ARE victims of sexism.

    Good stuff… I’m heartened to see you coming to these conclusions from within a feminist perspective.

  143. The_L says:

    Re: what is sexism, I always defined it in my head as “treating somebody differently based on the organs between their legs, or on societal concepts of gender.” Thus, treating a transwoman differently than a ciswoman for not having a uterus and/or vagina is a form of sexism, as is treating a transwoman differently from a cisman for not being “manly enough” (whatever the FUCK that means). Similarly, treating a ciswoman differently from a cisman is also sexism.

  144. Danny says:

    AB:
    With public healthcare, we don’t have the same problems with insurances. I think I’ve said it once already, but I read an article about men with breast cancer, and while I thought it was going to be about how the illness wasn’t discovered early enough, or how all the treatments were tested on women and didn’t have the same effect on men, but it turned out the biggest complaint from one of them was that his medicine didn’t come in special man-packages where there were no references to the menstrual cycle among the side-effects.
    As I said the tough guy act does come into play sometimes.

    But then again, maybe I’ve just been exposed to more Danish material about the subject.
    Varying mileage and all that.

    Jay:
    I’m going through the exact same thing with the wisdom tooth right now. It’s not that I can’t afford it, by itself, but my wife and my kids have medical issues they need taken care of also. How do you decide who goes first, y’know?
    I don’t have kids so I can’t speak too much on that pressure but if you’re trying to decide how to proceed on that dilemma I would definitely agree that you are not just looking out for yourself, a common charge made against men.

    Solo:
    How much money/time does it cost to pull a tooth? Get in that dentist’s chair and cut the dental care gender gap!
    I had 4 wisdoms and 1 molar (despite only going in for the wisdom and the one molar they wanted all five and showed me xrays that they were coming in wrong). removed. Before insurance it would have been almost $1400. After insurance it would was just a bit under $800. Both are pretty big sums of money in my current financial situation.

    Oh and Barry:
    So yes, slaughtered male victims aren’t victims ONLY of sexism. The reasons they were slaughtered may have to do with their ethnicity, with their class, and with other factors. But ONE of the factors is sexism. And they ARE victims of sexism.
    I can dig it. Problem is its like people intentionally deny the sexism when it comes to men in a lot of cases. You can even see it in (well at least in the states) coverage of violence in Africa or The Middle East. How many times have there been some major act of violence and the casualty report goes something like, “….many of them women and children”? Its like in those situations men are only counted when they are committing violence and as a result men that were forced to commit the violence (what do you think they do with those very young boys they keep) are pretty much silent and apparently innocent male civilians just don’t exist.

  145. Improbable Joe says:

    My last word on the idea that I’m oppressing people because I don’t live in a hand-built shack and yank fish out of a stream with a pointy stick, as Daisy seems to suggest we all do:

    When you redefine terms to cover too broad of a meaning, you dilute the meaning of the word to the point that it becomes useless. If you define “oppressor” to mean “anyone who benefits in any way from any process or any source that has anything to do with oppression anywhere”, then you’ve just defined 99.99999999% of the human race as an oppressor. If everyone is an oppressor, than the word ceases to have any real value. When you make that sort of sweeping use of a word, you set yourself up to have to defend patently stupid positions… like someone pointed out, even homeless people could be considered oppressors of wide swaths of people, on account of their second-hand shoes being made in a sweatshop or accepting a meal from a Catholic soup kitchen or ducking into a government-funded building to get some warmth and maybe apply for help on a computer. If your definition of “oppressor” can include guys sleeping under bridges or a single mom living on food stamps, your definition is wrong.

  146. pocketjacks says:

    @ Barry Deutsch,

    The part about football wasn’t a direct quote, just my voicing an example of a certain line of argument that I’ve grown weary of. The sport itself was chosen randomly.

    @ Jay Generally,

    Thanks for the +1. Yes, that particular statement about being “pressured to know everything” I found to be the worst of the bunch. The other ones, I basically think “they’re FAR more gender-neutral than you suppose”, but that’s the only one where I went “if anything, the genders are EXACTLY REVERSED on that one these days”.

    As for the rest, sorry, but I really don’t get how what you said has anything to do with what I said. It seems like you’re trying to contradict something, but I can’t really tell what because I never talked about the Success Myth directly. Could you clarify what you were responding to?

    That is, if you’re still reading this thread. I know, I have a habit of only logging on once a week or so, which makes it hard to participate in these kinds of threads.

  147. AB says:

    @Hugh Ristik:

    Yes, that’s oppression, and it’s classism. “Classism” means discrimination based on class, which is usually upper class vs. lower class, but can often be the other way around due to revolutions.

    I wasn’t talking about revolutions, I was talking about war. Nobility executes nobility and the peasantry has no saying in it.

    Not necessarily… it would depend on what the class upheaval looked like. “Just as” would be a tough conclusion to make.

    Again, no class upheaval, just war. Are members of the nobility oppressed when other members of the nobility see them as rivals in the fight over who gets to rule the peasants? Is killing a member of the same group in order to gain ownership of their slaves, wives, serfs, or cattle an example of one’s own group being oppressed?

    If the units aren’t similar, you can’t make a comparison.

    Same thing with gender.

    Except it doesn’t work that way in praxis. Take the different practices of male and female genital cutting. People claim that it’s useless, even oppressive, to take about degrees, because both are wrong. Then they use that claim to conclude that since FGC is more condemned than MGC, it’s an example of misandry and placing women above men. You should have seen it happen enough to be familiar with the pattern.

  148. Schala says:

    Except it doesn’t work that way in praxis. Take the different practices of male and female genital cutting. People claim that it’s useless, even oppressive, to take about degrees, because both are wrong. Then they use that claim to conclude that since FGC is more condemned than MGC, it’s an example of misandry and placing women above men. You should have seen it happen enough to be familiar with the pattern.

    This is in response to people who claim that FGC is horrible, while MGC has health benefits and helps for hygiene, so it can’t be that bad.

    People who say it doesn’t matter how physically horrible it is because it’s a violation of bodily autonomy without consent usually don’t downplay MGC. I’ve never seen FGC being downplayed.

  149. pocketjacks says:

    Sigh… and what I’m about to do is much like scrubbing down the gunky line of floor between the fridge and the wall. I debate whether or not it’s really necessary, but ultimately I decide I can’t let it just stand.

    @AB,

    “If, during a war, the nobility is executed while the peasants and slaves are not, is it then oppression against said nobility? They’re targeted with a violence which the rest of society is not, so there must be some -ism at work. But which is it?”

    If the captured nobles and their families were sodomized by the conquering soldiers, and again repeatedly by the tower guards where they were imprisoned, doesn’t that make them more oppressed than the non-getting-raped peasants working outside?

    If noble sons and daughters had to marry who their parents chose while the peasantry had (comparatively) more leeway, then is that oppression against the nobility?

    If you’re trying to imply that getting killed at a differentially higher rate is not a historical marker for oppression (because NOBILITY), then neither are rape or de facto sexual slavery.

    “Most of what I hear called misandry here is about how men aren’t respected enough, or believed to be competent enough, or adored enough, or valuable enough etc., and that just doesn’t fit those scenarios. Not even the part about not being valued, since potential soldiers are often very valuable to nations at war.”

    “No, being valued as a soldier is being valued.”

    If being valued as a “sex object” or a baby-making machine also counts as being valued, then sure.

    “Isn’t there a direct analogy to the lifespan gap with that of the wage gap?”

    “Even if men aren’t outright denied access to treatments for illnesses that women are treated for, don’t you think that this means that the gap is somewhat worth investigating? Fixing? How can we find injustice and correct it if the knee-jerk reaction always tends to be, “Well, I don’t see it, therefore it doesn’t exist.”

    Fyi, I think there is a paygap, and it’s worth fixing. What I’m asking you, is if you have a similar committment to men’s issues? (or at least, aknowledgment that they’re worth investigating.)”

    “The complaint is that men die at younger ages than women because of social stigmas surrounding masculinity and stoicism, increased risk taking, and self-destructive behaviors like excessive smoking and drinking. (not to mention mental health and suicide) Do I need to further elaborate the complaint for you, or do you get it yet?”

    I agree with Darque here. Men choose to smoke and drink. Women choose to major in art history and take more time off work. AB asks if anyone saw a man being shamed into adopting these habits. (Actually, yes, but even if I didn’t, my answer would still be:) Please. Show me the college girl who was forced – FORCED, I tell you! – to take art history or education. No? Then she deserves her lower wages, nothing to see here folks.

    The very nature of these phenomena is that finding that one proximate cause is next to impossible. Even with a laser-measuring tape and a slow motion camera run by Rain Man, I bet you couldn’t pinpoint the straw that broke the camel’s back.

    “if you assume that all the women reporting discrimination at work are lying”

    Please. You deny that many things men complain about are real or that they’re really misandry/discrimination. Is that also (scare chord) ACCUSING people of LYING???!!!?!

    “… that all the studies which find that men and women are evaluated differently (usually to men’s advantage) when their performances and qualifications are the same are false”

    There are also plenty of studies that once you control for the right variables, the wage gap mostly goes away, as well as those that show that people are more likely to help a woman in need than a man. (“Subtle Sex Bias in Empathy and Helping Behavior”, Oswald, Patricia A. (2000). “Studies Show People Still Willing to Help a Stranger, But Especially a Woman”, Fedler, Fred (1984). “Effects of Sex, Conversation, Location, and Size of Observer Group on Bystander Intervention in a High Risk Situation”, Howard & Crano (1974). Among others.) The argument is that the latter effect plays a big role in greater male mortality and poor health. Often this gets framed as “men less likely to *ask for help* when depressed”, etc., but that’s a two-way street.

    I also think that it’s revealing how some American liberal feminists get so nit-picky and wax philosophical about the causes of different life expectancies when it comes to gender, when they swallow it wholesale when it comes to international health comparisons and why the US needs universal health care. (Personally, I’m nothing if not consistent. I think the wage gap exists, though not in the pure discriminatory sense of unequal pay for equal work. Rather, through the mommy track and occupational segregation. And life expectancy matters, period. There’s a reason why every public health authority on the planet uses it, along with infant mortality, when assessing the health of a population.)

    “… that the tendency for employers to avoid hiring women of childbearing age doesn’t exist,”

    By your standard, there should be nothing wrong with this. They’re just being pragmatic, right? If it’s just pragmatism for an invading army to kill off all the men because the men could fight back, then it’s just pragmatism for an employer to not commit long term to a future pregnancy risk. (Furthermore, it’s just pragmatism to delegate most child-rearing tasks to the mother, given that since she’s the one who nurses it, not to mention existing cultural inertia means that she’s more likely to *want* to do it in the first place. It’s even *more* pragmatism to specialize labor such that one parent does most of the earning and the other most of the caretaking.) No “-isms” or oppression occurring anywhere along this. If women were as likely to be insurgents, then the invading army would kill them off, too. If men could get pregnant, employers would discriminate against them, too.

    I had no idea that it was suddenly the feminist position that if you make a decision on coldly practical terms, you weren’t exactly motivated by a *hatred* of one gender, but nonetheless your choices lead to vastly disparate outcomes that disfavor one gender, then in no way can it be called sexist.

    “Actually, some of the things I’ve seen black people say about white people on American TV have been really off-putting for me, and I wouldn’t doubt for a second that anyone white finding themselves outnumbered in a crowd like that could be the subject of racial bullying. But then again, it could be a cultural difference.”

    You tow the rad-fem party line to such an extent as to deny that selective gender-cide of men is in any way a gender problem, and yet you find the time to break with ultra-left radfeminism to blurt out something like this.

    You’re a white woman, yes?

    @ Jay Generally,

    “If you think only men can be soldiers, you’re a sexist. It doesn’t even matter if you’re right or not. (Hint: not)”

    Err… sexist towards whom? To the women? Because they’re being underestimated? So if I’m shot and you’re not, the real victim is you?

  150. This has turned into a fascinating thread, kudos to all, especially AB and Hugh.

    Speaking personally, I have had to force three husbands, a father, a stepfather, grandfather, uncle, brother and several male friends–to go to the damn doctor. I have called EMS twice when they refused, and on one occasion, it was an actual heart attack (grandfather) and he was sitting there insisting he was fine.

    The gender-role of men includes masculine stoicism and insisting you are fine when you are ready to drop dead, so abolishing this role ASAP (or at least seriously modifying it!) seems to me one immediate way to lengthen life and get rid of the health gap. But I agree that it is VERY REAL!

    As one dealing now with a baby-boomer male who, yes, is FINE FINE FINE all the time, this male trait is of more concern to me as we both age. I am vigilant about my health, and he is intermittently so, but he still resists doctors. What IS that? Submitting to another authority or (in his case) a certain almost-pathological privacy thing? I think that is also part of the male gender role, not “telling your business” to “strangers”…

    Excellent discussion!

    Barry, thank you for your thoughtful and polite (ahem) reply!

  151. pocketjacks says:

    “That depends. In cases of violence, it does indeed seem that men are the direct agents of violence. However, why are men being violent? Perhaps they are trying to protect their families from real or perceived attack, gain resources to support their families, or gain status and resources to attract women.”

    Not only that, Hugh, but there’s a simpler analogy here that can be made. Most would agree that growing up in a violent, unstable neighborhood is an example of oppression. Blacks in America and disadvantaged minorities all over the world suffer from it. Yet when you actually look at the statistics, it’s mostly those minorities “oppressing each other”. Black-on-Black remains the most common form of murder in the US today.

    So these young Black kids, who all too often have to worry more about safety than history or math while at school, who had to work while studying to help support their older brother who can’t walk anymore after he was shot, are they not oppressed by living in violent conditions? But who’s the oppressor? “Themselves”? White people? Well, perhaps in a broader, historical sense, but no white person pulled the trigger, now they did they…

    If liberal feminists can accept that something can be racist or sexist without someone being racist or sexist – an argument I hear all the time when I hear about “systemic” or “structural” racism or sexism – then I don’t buy that they suddenly find it inconceivable that someone can be oppressed without there being a direct oppressor.

  152. If liberal feminists can accept that something can be racist or sexist without someone being racist or sexist – an argument I hear all the time when I hear about “systemic” or “structural” racism or sexism – then I don’t buy that they suddenly find it inconceivable that someone can be oppressed without there being a direct oppressor.

    Ironically, this is a response to Hugh’s response to me, in which I (the feminist) was arguing that men’s oppression was systemic, and Hugh (the non-feminist) was the one straining mightily to find a way to blame women for men’s oppression.

  153. dungone says:

    Been following this thread without comment, but thought I’d jump in for a moment here:

    Ironically, this is a response to Hugh’s response to me, in which I (the feminist) was arguing that men’s oppression was systemic, and Hugh (the non-feminist) was the one straining mightily to find a way to blame women for men’s oppression.

    Barry, the operative word here is direct. Just because a form of discrimination is systemic does not mean that everyone’s off the hook and we no longer have to look at who is ultimately responsible. I.E., whose behavior ultimately has to change in order for the systemic discrimination to be alleviated. In the case of blacks, consider federally subsidized mortgage practices in the 50’s that were only available to whites, thus creating a black underclass in the inner cities from what were once mixed race communities. To add to the problem, extremely dense “projects” sprung up around the country that concentrated all of that poverty into an even smaller space, making these neighborhoods into a veritable powder keg of social problems. To that poverty for blacks had nothing to do with whites and policies that were enacted at the behest of whites would be a grievous misjudgment of American history. To say that it’s “blacks doing it to themselves,” as feminists are often fond of saying about injustices that happen to men, is also just as wrong. It would be like saying that black women are victims of racism but black men are only victims of themselves.

    So in my opinion, Hugh was not doing anything wrong in examining the role that women play in creating violence among men. Consider, for example, that in extremely poor neighborhoods, the most violent men are also more likely to be successful in mating. I think you are remiss for trying to say that because the violence is systemic, then women have nothing to do with why it’s there.

  154. Daran says:

    Ironically, this is a response to Hugh’s response to me, in which I (the feminist) was arguing that men’s oppression was systemic, and Hugh (the non-feminist) was the one straining mightily to find a way to blame women for men’s oppression.

    I think Hugh takes the possition that social systems are the aggregate behaviour of people, men and women together. If he wishes to emphasise those aspects of women’s behviour which have harmful to men, I suggest it is a reaction to the common feminist practice of 1. blaming all men’s problems on men, and 2 dismissing said problems for this reason.

  155. Danny says:

    pocketjacks
    “No, being valued as a soldier is being valued.”

    If being valued as a “sex object” or a baby-making machine also counts as being valued, then sure.
    Oh I questioned that earlier and she actually does hold women to that same standard. No squirming and trying to use institutional power to make one nonexistent.

    I had no idea that it was suddenly the feminist position that if you make a decision on coldly practical terms, you weren’t exactly motivated by a *hatred* of one gender, but nonetheless your choices lead to vastly disparate outcomes that disfavor one gender, then in no way can it be called sexist.
    While I won’t deny there are some out there that probably do think this but AB’s not a feminist.

    Daisy:
    What IS that? Submitting to another authority or (in his case) a certain almost-pathological privacy thing? I think that is also part of the male gender role, not “telling your business” to “strangers”…
    While what you say may be the case there are other reasons. As has been mentioned here a lot of men will foresake taking care of their own health for the sake of others. Some might be afraid of doctors and hospital settings (as in serious phobia scared). Also to go to a health professional for an issue is to admit there might be something wrong. With the stoicism that the male gender role has ingrained it most of the time when something is wrong or something might be wrong and there’s the choice between speaking up or staying silent silence will be the way to go.

    Schala:
    This is in response to people who claim that FGC is horrible, while MGC has health benefits and helps for hygiene, so it can’t be that bad.

    People who say it doesn’t matter how physically horrible it is because it’s a violation of bodily autonomy without consent usually don’t downplay MGC. I’ve never seen FGC being downplayed.
    Pretty much. A violation of bodily autonomy is cited as a reason for why FGC is wrong (and I agree with this). Yet when it comes to MGC suddenly violation of bodily autonomy isn’t a good enough reason to not do it? Even with this violation happening we still have people would want cultural exemptions, trying to push the supposedly health benefits (which are contested at best), and claims that since he’s so young the pain’s not that bad.

  156. The_L says:

    @pocketjacks: Are you seriously going to argue that women AREN’T being systemically passed up for raises, or paid $.75 for every dollar that their male coworkers earn for the exact same job? Wage gap statistics aren’t measuring “male surgeon vs. female elementary-school teacher.” They’re measuring male teacher vs. female teacher, male HR department chair vs. female HR department chair, and so on. Simply saying “the average of all men earns more than the average of all women” is stupid and pointless, because unemployed men, stay-at-home moms, and the fact that 99.99% of CEOs are male all skew things dramatically.

    A woman should earn exactly the same thing as a man doing the exact same job earns. This doesn’t always happen; therefore, there is sex discrimination with regards to pay.

    A woman should have exactly the same opportunity for promotion as a man with her same job and the same qualifications. This doesn’t always happen either; therefore, there is sex discrimination with regards to job position.

    How many male CEOs can you name? Can you even name a single female CEO? Do you honestly believe that there is no woman on earth who wants to run a large successful business? Because if you do, I’ve got a bridge to sell you…

  157. Schala says:

    @The_L

    I also remember those male co-workers accepting horribly long schedules of 60-70+ hours a week, schedules that I personally refused out of choice, of favoring my personal time over having more money (and being favored for a promotion).

    Do note that I do NOT want promotions. Responsibility positions pay more…but they’re also a lot more work, a lot more annoying, and you sometimes have to fire people, even people you like. I couldn’t do that.

    So in the domain I was at that actually HAD promotions, I stayed regular functionality tester, some people (male and female) went on to become lead testers (paid slightly more, much longer hours), and leads can eventually become project managers, which has a lot more responsibility (including representing the company’s image to a client, by having internet contact with them – testers don’t ever). Would you be surprised that most project managers were male? And more willing to do those extra long overtime hours.

    It’s not biological, but there is certainly a cultural pressure for men to provide for them and then some. For many it will involve actively doing everything to get promotions, including slaving away their weekends and toiling for double-shifts, in the hope of amassing huge funds, or getting promoted. Male nurses do more overtime than female nurses, when they do any.

  158. Hugh:

    Yes, that’s oppression, and it’s classism. “Classism” means discrimination based on class, which is usually upper class vs. lower class, but can often be the other way around due to revolutions.

    “Often”? I don’t think so. Revolutions in which the upper class in general are targeted are extremely rare. I don’t know that any such thing has happened in my lifetime. Real-life revolutions virtually never happen without the active support of at least some powerful already-existing interests.

    Not necessarily… it would depend on what the class upheaval looked like. “Just as” would be a tough conclusion to make. Even in a society with constant turmoil, where each class took turns murdering the other, the results might not be symmetrical. It would be most common that both the lower classes and upper classes are oppressed in different ways in such a culture, and it might be difficult to figure out who is “more” oppressed (unless one class gets mostly enslaved or murdered, which can happen to either upper or lower classes depending on where we are in history). If the units aren’t similar, you can’t make a comparison.

    Same thing with gender.

    If you can’t say who’s more oppressed, the peasants in the fields or the rulers in their castle, then I think you’ve moved so far into relativism that your views no longer are credible.

    I don’t understand, frankly, how you can be logically consistent and still make the exception for slavery. After all, weren’t the slave-owners in pre-civil war America oppressed in some ways too? I sure wouldn’t have wanted to be a white person in Nat Turner’s town. And the units definitely aren’t similar. So shouldn’t your logic compel you to say that no comparison can be made in that case, either?

    I think there’s an argument for saying that both men and women are oppressed because the harms of sexism on both sexes are happening constantly, to a significant portion of the population, every single day. You don’t have to point to once-in-a-lifetime (or less frequent!) events to make the case that sexism harms men. Every day, a man in a gender-segregated, dangerous, low-paying job is injured or killed. Every day, a “wimpy” boy is told that he’s worthless by the other kids. Etc, etc — I could go on with other examples, as you know, and I could also name many similar examples for women.

    I don’t think we should count classes of people whose “oppression” doesn’t include everyday oppression, and only consists of events that happen extremely rarely, as “oppressed.” I think that counting aristocrats (or slaveowners) as an oppressed class would accomplish nothing except to drain the word oppressed of all meaning.

    If that sort of extreme relativistic thinking is required to see men as oppressed, then you could count me out! However, I don’t think that extremism is required.

  159. @ Pocketjacks
    “If you think only men can be soldiers, you’re a sexist. It doesn’t even matter if you’re right or not. (Hint: not)”

    Err… sexist towards whom? To the women? Because they’re being underestimated? So if I’m shot and you’re not, the real victim is you?

    It’s sexist towards both. I don’t think most sexism is unidirectional, Ozy’s law and all that. If it was unidirectional I’d probably call it misandric or misogynistic.

    Oh, and all that stuff I wrote re: the Success Myth was directed more towards one of Uncalledfor’s comments, no anything you said. I probably should have broken those up.

  160. dungone says:

    @The_L, you’re wrong on a number of fronts, to the point where I would suggest that you actually familiarize yourself with the actual criticism the gender wage gap before you cry fowl on it. You’re attacking a strawman.

    The first problem is that they compare job titles, not the nature and difficulty of the work done. For example, a man and a woman might both be doctors, but the man is more likely to be a surgeon. Second problem is, they don’t adjust for overtime work, paid or unpaid. Men typically work longer hours than women, so unless you need to discount their income accordingly, you’re making it look like they really earn more per hour than they do. Third problem is, they don’t take into account career interruptions. A woman with 10 years of experience who just come off a 4 year sabbatical (i.e. “I was a home maker until my divorce”) is not going to make the same amount of money as a man who actually has 10 years of recent experience… especially in highly skilled, constantly changing fields such as technology and medicine. And fourth, men make more lifestyle sacrifices for more money than women do. On average, men have longer commutes, move across the country for work, spend more time on business travel away from home, spend more time working on weekends and holidays, work the graveyard shifts, and otherwise do whatever it takes to earn a little more money in ways that women seldom try.

  161. Hugh, quoting me, wrote:

    However, I’m not certain that “which sex is more oppressed, women or men” is a question that has such an answer.

    That’s the conclusion I’ve come to. Now we just have to convince more feminists to stop thinking they have the answer.

    No, I don’t have to do that. 🙂

    I just don’t think oppression-mongering is of very much importance. Is there a example of a policy issue where I disagree with feminists because they think that women (but not men) are oppressed because of their sex, and where persuading them otherwise might cause them to change their mind on the policy issue?

    Earlier, I wrote that although I don’t think that the dominance of men in positions of authority (i.e., President, Senator, etc) is the ONLY important measuring stick, I think it’s AN important measuring stick. Now that I’ve read your opinion on aristocrats, though, I have to ask: Do you agree with me that it’s an important measuring stick?

    I never said women were oppressing men (in war or elsewhere). I think men are oppressed as men, but I don’t think women are the oppressors.

    That depends. In cases of violence, it does indeed seem that men are the direct agents of violence. However, why are men being violent? Perhaps they are trying to protect their families from real or perceived attack, gain resources to support their families, or gain status and resources to attract women.

    And if a man is violent because he thinks this will attract women, that’s women’s fault? Is it Jodie Foster’s fault that President Reagan was shot?

    If a man is violent because he thinks it’s what he has to do to support his family, is that his wife’s fault? Did she create an economic and employment system that didn’t provide them with jobs and resources to support their family non-violently?

    Just because the people doing a lot of the direct dirty work of oppression are male, it doesn’t necessarily mean that women aren’t oppressors.

    I don’t agree with the eagerness of some feminists to label “men” oppressors. And your own eagerness to label “women” as oppressors is no more attractive, or persuasive.

    Men are not the borg. Women are not the borg. It’s not useful to paint an entire sex as “oppressors,” as opposed to looking specifically at what systems are set up, which individuals run those systems, and what constraints exist preventing different people from running those systems in different ways.

    But worldwide, think of the male gangsters, criminals, and militants who have girlfriends and wives who are being protected by them, or profiting by them. Those women don’t necessarily like violence and oppression by men, but they like it when men bring home the bacon, and try not to think to much about where it comes from. That’s complicity.

    Where is your special knowledge of what the wives of (for example) Sudanese militia members think coming from? How do you know that a typical Sudanese militia member is married? (I don’t know, either, but I wouldn’t be surprised if most militia members are single.) How do you know that most of them aren’t single and shooting out of fear of being shot themselves if they refuse orders; or shooting because they’ve been raised in a system of racist hatred; or shooting because they want their compatriots to consider them real men; or (etc, etc, etc)?

    You don’t know, is the answer. Neither do I.

    You sound like someone whose views of what motivates men comes from PUA literature struggling to make that interpretation of the US bar scene apply to world events.

    And no, I’m not saying it’s all women’s fault. In some parts of the world, it might be practically necessary for women to mate with men who engage in violence. What I’m just trying to show is how women are participants in violent and oppressive cultures, even when they aren’t the ones holding the rifles. The fact that men are more often agents of violent oppression doesn’t mean that women aren’t oppressors, it just means that they are a layer removed (think of how criminal bosses are a layer removed from doing the dirty work, because their henchmen do it for them).

    Men are most often the violent henchmen during oppression, but they are henchmen of cultures created by both men and women.

    I think this is the best argument you make, but it’s still a reach. By these extremely loose standards, absolutely everyone in society is “the oppressor,” including infants (after all, if women want men to bring home the bacon, isn’t that just because their infants want to be fed?). Defined so broadly, the entire concept of “the oppressor” becomes completely meaningless. Which makes me wonder why it’s so passionately important to you that women be counted as oppressors.

    I don’t think your view of oppression — which reduces everything to a social mish-mash in a desperate attempt to rope in women, and completely ignores actual lines of power — is very useful. And although I certainly agree that many people of both sexes are in some ways complicit with oppression, I don’t believe conflating the ideas of “oppressor” and “complicit” is useful; on the contrary, it makes it muddier by treating two distinct concepts as if they were interchangeable.

    I’m glad we agree on some of this stuff, Hugh. But honestly, you just came far closer to talking me out of my views than any feminist ever has. :-p

  162. The_L, you’re mistaken about what causes the pay gap. Please read this post on my blog.

  163. Daran:

    If he wishes to emphasise those aspects of women’s behviour which have harmful to men, I suggest it is a reaction to the common feminist practice of 1. blaming all men’s problems on men, and 2 dismissing said problems for this reason.

    It’s ironic that you excuse Hugh’s attempt to blame some men’s bad behavior on women, by saying that Hugh’s poor argument should be blamed on feminists.

  164. Danny says:

    Is he trying to excuse it or explain where its coming from?

  165. Schala says:

    If that sort of extreme relativistic thinking is required to see men as oppressed, then you could count me out! However, I don’t think that extremism is required.

    AB brought up the “but aristocrats getting killed, is that an ism?” question, very obtuse question too.

  166. dungone says:

    @The_L, while you’re absolutely welcomed to read Barry’s blog post about the gender wage gap, please do NOT think that this is anything of the sort that I was referring to, if you wish to actually become informed on the subject from an actual critic’s perspective. Barry is making a strawman argument.

  167. ” Revolutions in which the upper class in general are targeted are extremely rare. I don’t know that any such thing has happened in my lifetime.”

    The Khmer Rouge in Cambodia 1975-1979. Of course it’s leaders were mostly (IIRC) from upper-class backgrounds and well educated.

  168. pocketjacks says:

    @The_L,

    I’ve been ninja’d a couple times on this, but since you were addressing I feel I have to repeat it: you’re wrong on the wage gap. Specifically, when it comes to the famous “77 centers on the dollar figure”, what they are measuring is pretty much “the average of all men earns more than the average of all women”. Now, they take the median, not the average, so the issue you see with CEOs/homemakers/unemployed is mitigated. Still, the literal formula for the wage gap that produces the numbers you’re most used to seeing and repeating is dividing the median annual earnings for women over the median annual earnings for men. There is no adjustment for occupation or job title, contrary to what you assert, nor time worked. (I believe most, though not all, at least restrict the calculations to full-time workers, defined as 35 hours/week. But they don’t account for hours past that threshold, let alone for actual overtime pay, as dungone points out.)

    If you adjust for job title, hours worked, time taken off and everything else, it shrinks to about 95 cents on the dollar. And in metropolitan areas, the median salaries of young women is about 115 cents on the dollar to those of young men. I’m wary about hyperlinking after tagging just one sent one of my last comments into spam filter limbo, so I’ll have the exact link available only upon the request. For now, Google “An Analysis of the Reasons in Disparity in Wages between Men and Women” for the first one and “Workplace Salaries: At Last, Women On Top” for the Time article detailing the second.

    It’s true that the reasons why some of these adjusted criteria narrow the pay gap themselves may be the result of anti-woman sexism. (Barry Deutsch, who’s posting here, wrote a series on the wage gap that talks about some of these.) For instance, men may get more overtime pay because they’re asked to do it more often. But this hasn’t been quantified; there’s no solid reason to suppose that those sorts of instances happen more than the converse, anti-man sexism. For instance, a man saying that he can’t work that night because his kid has a thing is rebuffed while a woman in the same position is allowed to, or else he’s viewed much more negatively by his boss for asking for the same thing so over time he learns to never bother. The fact is, measuring the pay gap with any standard approaching the rigor expected in most other statistical comparisons has the invariable effect of shrinking it drastically. And I think most people make the same mistake that you do and would be surprised to learn how the wage gap actually consists of, and what it doesn’t take into account. I think it’s not an accident and some people have been deliberately lying.

    That’s, of course, not to say that a 5-cent or so tax on every dollar you make is trivial – try proposing a new 5% tax surcharge while running for the presidency in America and bottle the heat generated from the red, outraged faces you’d get. You could then add “solving the global energy crisis” to your platform. I also think occupational segregation is a serious issue, though as I said this is a complex multifaceted problem. Like I said, it’s much like convincing men to do less risky things and take better care of their health. (There are the petty and selfish who would blame one gender for their side, or at least consider the issue resolved because no one’s being “forced” to do anything, while seeing their own gender’s problem as Oppression. I think you know exactly what type of people these are and I hope how you can see how Ozy’s Law applies here. In fact, I think I’d like to muse on a corollary to Ozy’s Law for these types of situations, but maybe I should wait for another Open Thread.) Finally, I think, with the technology that we now have, most job interviews and such can and should be done through a blind process. That would not only solve the issue of gender bias but most other social biases one could think of. It won’t get rid of anything; rate of in-house promotions, for one, can’t possibly ever be a blind process. But it’d be a great start.

  169. Hugh Ristik says:

    @pocketjacks,

    But who’s the oppressor? “Themselves”? White people? Well, perhaps in a broader, historical sense, but no white person pulled the trigger, now they did they…

    Exactly. It’s not a “class” that’s the oppressor, it’s the system. The system then makes use of whoever it can as agents of oppression through incentives or threats.

    @Daran,

    I think Hugh takes the possition that social systems are the aggregate behaviour of people, men and women together. If he wishes to emphasise those aspects of women’s behviour which have harmful to men, I suggest it is a reaction to the common feminist practice of 1. blaming all men’s problems on men, and 2 dismissing said problems for this reason.

    That’s exactly correct. My comment only focused on female roles in oppressive dynamics because I believe that women’s agency is often left out of history. History is not just about groups of men fighting each other with no input from women.

  170. “If you adjust for job title, hours worked, time taken off and everything else, it shrinks to about 95 cents on the dollar.”

    Phew!

  171. Hugh Ristik says:

    @Barry,

    I’m not sure I’ve done a good job of explaining what I’m responding to. I’m objecting to a particular sort of feminist view of men as oppressors (or an “oppressor class”), and women as oppressed (an “oppressed class”). You can see an example of this view in Daisy’s response to your initial comment about measuring sticks:

    The measuring stick is who is doing it.
    Are the men in the village gathered up and executed by women or men? On the orders of women or men? Sent by male or female politicians, from cultures/countries dominated by—? Are the religions/ governments that support this war largely run by men or women? What is the percentage of people on the front lines (of both sides) that are men vs women? Further, what is the percentage of the citizenry that actively supports this war, and are they mostly male or female? Who is more likely to vote for warmongering politicians, men or women?
    That readily tells you who the oppressor is, not always who the oppressed is.
    But that is why feminists say women are more oppressed; we have little or no representation among the oppressor class.

    While I agree with Daisy that gender of soldiers and leaders are important, I think you would agree that they aren’t the only important measuring sticks.

    To only look at the actions of male leaders and soldiers in isolation, and consequently call men an “oppressor class” creates a highly androcentric view of history that erases female agency, relegating women to the status of bystanders, while scapegoating men. I don’t believe that we can understand the behavior of male leaders and soldiers without looking at their sisters, mothers, girlfriends, wives, and entire culture, a culture which may be created by both men and women.

    In my next comment, I’ll give you a specific historical example, but bear with me while I respond to some of your points.

    And if a man is violent because he thinks this will attract women, that’s women’s fault? Is it Jodie Foster’s fault that President Reagan was shot?

    In this case, no, because Hinckley was very far from reality, and he was wrong about Foster’s preferences. Yet in other parts of world, women do date violent or criminal men, and men know it. That makes those women participants in violent culture systems.

    Actually, in the US, it happens too: plenty of women are into boxers and other sorts of fighters. That’s legal violence, but it’s still support of a violent culture.

    If a man is violent because he thinks it’s what he has to do to support his family, is that his wife’s fault?

    …no?

    Where is your special knowledge of what the wives of (for example) Sudanese militia members think coming from? How do you know that a typical Sudanese militia member is married? (I don’t know, either, but I wouldn’t be surprised if most militia members are single.) How do you know that most of them aren’t single and shooting out of fear of being shot themselves if they refuse orders; or shooting because they’ve been raised in a system of racist hatred; or shooting because they want their compatriots to consider them real men; or (etc, etc, etc)?

    You don’t know, is the answer. Neither do I.

    Sure, neither of us are historians, or global experts. But seriously, there are a lot of militias through history and the present. Men participate in militias for a lot of reasons (most of which are a different discussion). Is it really so hard to imagine that some men in some places join militias to protect their families?

    Yes, we have a lack of knowledge. But in our lack of knowledge, we shouldn’t just assume that globally, women are all as averse to violence as white middle-class Western women… so if men elsewhere are being violent and oppressive, it must just be men being pigs because they are oppressive jerks like that, while women are just innocent pawns who don’t have anything to do with men’s behavior.

    You don’t anything like that, of course… but a lot of discussion of history, including feminist discussion of “male oppression” talks as if that view was true.

    You sound like someone whose views of what motivates men comes from PUA literature struggling to make that interpretation of the US bar scene apply to world events.

    Gangster movies, too. Have you seen the movie American Gangster, where he brings his momma to the new house he has bought for her, while she has to know that it’s ill-gotten (or finds out soon enough)?

    Yes, I am sensitive to how female preferences and support for certain types of masculinity influence the incentives and pressures on men. But it hardly takes a PUA to know that globally, there are women who date or otherwise support gangsters. Why is such an incredibly weak claim by me so controversial?

    Men are not the borg. Women are not the borg. It’s not useful to paint an entire sex as “oppressors,” as opposed to looking specifically at what systems are set up, which individuals run those systems, and what constraints exist preventing different people from running those systems in different ways.

    I agree, and if it sounded otherwise, then chalk that up to the ambiguity of the English language (e.g. “women” equivocating between “all women” and “a subset of women”). I agree with you that according to loose standards, everyone is an oppressor.

    I just don’t want a double standard, where men in general are tarred as oppressors, according to a loose standard, but women are not. What I’m suggesting is that if men are an “oppressor class,” then women are, too. And that if individual men are oppressors, individual women are often standing behind them.

  172. Hugh Ristik says:

    @Barry,

    By these extremely loose standards, absolutely everyone in society is “the oppressor,” including infants (after all, if women want men to bring home the bacon, isn’t that just because their infants want to be fed?).

    Women aren’t infants. A wife can say to a husband “tell those gun runners trying to hire you to fuck off, and get a real job… I don’t care if we are poorer.” A child can’t.

  173. Hugh Ristik says:

    Barry,

    Let’s talk about class.

    “Often”? I don’t think so. Revolutions in which the upper class in general are targeted are extremely rare. I don’t know that any such thing has happened in my lifetime.

    As Colette pointed out, there was the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, which I suspect was during your lifetime.

    How rare class revolutions are depends on what period of history you are looking at. During the 20th century, there was the Russian Revolution, Maoism, Saur Revolution in Afghanistan, and the Khmer Rouge.

    In Soviet Russia and Maoist China, struggle sessions (i.e. “class struggle”) were held, where middle-class, upper-class, or land-owning people were denounced as class enemies, and humiliated, imprisoned, or even executed.

    Soviet-modeled revolutions are rare as a percentage of cultures, but they have affected large percentages of the world’s population during the 20th century.

    If you can’t say who’s more oppressed, the peasants in the fields or the rulers in their castle, then I think you’ve moved so far into relativism that your views no longer are credible.

    Or we aren’t talking about the same point in history. When I said that it can be hard to compare which class is oppressed “more”, I was only talking about periods of history containing revolutions. For instance, were the peasants more oppressed under Tsarist Russia, or were the bourgeoisie/aristocrats more oppressed during the Red Terror and Stalinism?

    I don’t understand, frankly, how you can be logically consistent and still make the exception for slavery. After all, weren’t the slave-owners in pre-civil war America oppressed in some ways too?

    That’s not what I’m talking about, because the former slaves didn’t turn around and violently oppress the former slave-owners. I’m saying that in cases of reciprocal, or alternating class conflict, being in the upper or middle classes isn’t always better, and being lower class isn’t always worse, during some historical contexts where the lower classes oppress the upper classes, such as Soviet-style revolutions.

    I don’t think we should count classes of people whose “oppression” doesn’t include everyday oppression, and only consists of events that happen extremely rarely, as “oppressed.”

    I’m sure it would comfort all the middle/upper class people, intellectuals, land-owners, or businessmen who died during Stalin’s Purges and the Maoist Campaign to Suppress Counterrevolutionaries to know that their deaths were a fluke. If you’d lived in Russia or China during the last century, then what I’m talking about would certainly have been an everyday oppression.

    I’m going to hazard a guess that you didn’t realize I was thinking of Soviet Russia, Maoist China, and Khmer Rouge Cambodia. But now that you do, perhaps you can see where I was coming from.

  174. BlackHumor says:

    Just popping in here a moment to argue with a few things Hugh just said (other than that Amp is saying pretty much everything I’d like to say):

    In this case, no, because Hinckley was very far from reality, and he was wrong about Foster’s preferences. Yet in other parts of world, women do date violent or criminal men, and men know it. That makes those women participants in violent culture systems.

    Uh, women date all kinds of men. There exist women who prefer violent men, but there also exist women who prefer cat lovers. “Women”, as a class, do not prefer any kind of men; they only even prefer men at all on average.

    Women aren’t infants. A wife can say to a husband “tell those gun runners trying to hire you to fuck off, and get a real job… I don’t care if we are poorer.” A child can’t.

    If this is a man willing to shoot people for money, how likely is it he’ll actually listen? Versus, say, hitting her or even raping her for suggesting it? Because I hear in some countries that’s fairly common even among men who DON’T smuggle weapons.

    I’m saying that in cases of reciprocal, or alternating class conflict, being in the upper or middle classes isn’t always better, and being lower class isn’t always worse, during some historical contexts where the lower classes oppress the upper classes, such as Soviet-style revolutions.

    Almost by definition of the term being in the lower class is worse. The lower class can never oppress the upper class, because one of the defining features of the upper class is having any actual power, and so if they were oppressing the “upper class” they themselves must BE the actual upper class.

    So the upper class in Stalin’s Russia was not the (remnants of the) aristocracy, it was the Communist Party.

  175. Hugh: While I agree with Daisy that gender of soldiers and leaders are important, I think you would agree that they aren’t the only important measuring sticks.

    And I hope you read my lengthy post above, about colonialism and imperialism? This comment sounds like you didn’t.

    I certainly don’t think they are the only important measuring sticks either.

  176. Daran says:

    BlackHumor (quoting Hugh Ristik):

    In this case, no, because Hinckley was very far from reality, and he was wrong about Foster’s preferences. Yet in other parts of world, women do date violent or criminal men, and men know it. That makes those women participants in violent culture systems.

    Uh, women date all kinds of men. There exist women who prefer violent men, but there also exist women who prefer cat lovers. “Women”, as a class, do not prefer any kind of men; they only even prefer men at all on average.

    Hugh Ristik did not make a statement about women “as a class”. He referred to “women”, which could mean “women as a class” or “some women”, then later to “those women” which forces the latter interpretation. “Those women” according to Hugh are participants in violent culture systems”.

    Women aren’t infants. A wife can say to a husband “tell those gun runners trying to hire you to fuck off, and get a real job… I don’t care if we are poorer.” A child can’t.

    If this is a man willing to shoot people for money, how likely is it he’ll actually listen? Versus, say, hitting her or even raping her for suggesting it? Because I hear in some countries that’s fairly common even among men who DON’T smuggle weapons.

    I find it difficult to believe that no women anywhere, married to a man who is violent to others, is capable of influencing him to be less violent, or that every women who can does so to the maximum extent possible. This appears to be atttributing elf-like qualities to the women. Secondly some women voluntarily enter into relationships with manifestly violent men.

    It’s manifestly apparent that economically successful men have an advantage over less successful men when it comes to finding romantic/sexual partners – men who achieve that success by treading on other men and women, no less than those who don’t. Those women, not “women as a class” are participants in an oppressive culture. To attribute this culture solely to “those men” is to exclude from culpability many who shouldn’t be excluded. To attribute the culture to “men as a class”, as many feminists do, is to additionally blame many men whose only involvement in that culture is to be victims of it.

    I’m saying that in cases of reciprocal, or alternating class conflict, being in the upper or middle classes isn’t always better, and being lower class isn’t always worse, during some historical contexts where the lower classes oppress the upper classes, such as Soviet-style revolutions.

    Almost by definition of the term being in the lower class is worse. The lower class can never oppress the upper class, because one of the defining features of the upper class is having any actual power, and so if they were oppressing the “upper class” they themselves must BE the actual upper class.

    So if a street hoodlum breaks into a wealthy person’s home and murders, this is not an example of a lower class person oppressing an upper class person because at the time, the hoodlum was upper class and the victim lower?

    You can prove any proposition by simply defining it to be true. No Irish person ever went to live in America. Proof: An Irish person is by definition someone who lives in Ireland. This is not reasonable argumentation.

    So the upper class in Stalin’s Russia was not the (remnants of the) aristocracy, it was the Communist Party.

    I agree that the Communist Party, or at least its upper echelons, became the upper class in Stalin’s Russia, but only after the former upper class had been overthrown. I do not agree that during the period of social breakdown, that every farm labourer who stuck a pitchfork into the back of a wealthy landowner was a member of the upper class.

  177. Daran says:

    The first quoted paragraph in the above was intended to be double quoted. Could a mod please fix.

  178. Daran says:

    Hugh Ristk:

    But it hardly takes a PUA to know that globally, there are women who date or otherwise support gangsters. Why is such an incredibly weak claim by me so controversial?

    Because you are problemising female behavior without attributing said behaviour to women’s circumstances or to men, and are therefore violating one of the unstated rules of gynocentric feminism, namely that you just don’t do this.

  179. Hugh Ristik says:

    @BlackHumor,

    I said:

    In this case, no, because Hinckley was very far from reality, and he was wrong about Foster’s preferences. Yet in other parts of world, women do date violent or criminal men, and men know it. That makes those women participants in violent culture systems.

    You replied:

    Uh, women date all kinds of men. There exist women who prefer violent men, but there also exist women who prefer cat lovers. “Women”, as a class, do not prefer any kind of men; they only even prefer men at all on average.

    Of course they don’t. I’ve already stipulated that the English language is bad for rigorous communication, and that I am only talking about subsets of women.

    If this is a man willing to shoot people for money, how likely is it he’ll actually listen? Versus, say, hitting her or even raping her for suggesting it? Because I hear in some countries that’s fairly common even among men who DON’T smuggle weapons.

    I mentioned a plausible scenario. I made no claim about what proportion of men worldwide will listen to their wives. Who exactly do you think a man is trying to feed by doing gun smuggling? Do you really think that worldwide, women have no say in their husbands’ involvement with violence and criminality, at all?

    You can’t possibly believe something like that, but I really don’t know why you are sidetracking by pointing out the trivial truism that some wives don’t listen to their husbands. I’ve already acknowledged that in some cultures, women don’t have much input into the affairs of men. I’m interested in discussing cases where wives do have an influence on their husband’s violent, criminal, or oppressive behavior.

    Why can’t we discuss that? I don’t understand the resistance in this thread to discussing female involvement and support for oppression enacted by male agents. Am I really being such a bad communicator, or is the subject so taboo?

    I’ve very clearly stated that I am only talking about subsets of women, and that their participation probably varies according to culture. “Blame” might be appropriate in some cases (e.g. Dr. Herta Oberheuser mention in the article I linked on Nazi women, who got 20 years for experimenting on people in the Ravensbruck concentration camp to try to find cures for German soldiers), or it might not, due to environments of deprivation and lack of choice that I’ve also already acknowledged.

    Almost by definition of the term being in the lower class is worse. The lower class can never oppress the upper class, because one of the defining features of the upper class is having any actual power, and so if they were oppressing the “upper class” they themselves must BE the actual upper class.

    So the upper class in Stalin’s Russia was not the (remnants of the) aristocracy, it was the Communist Party.

    Although you could use upper and lower class this way, it’s not how most people use the terms. If you were a landowner or businessman before the Russian Revolution, I doubt that the Cheka would have been impressed by your pleas that you are actually lower-class, now.

  180. dungone says:

    Like I asked Dungone (and never got a reply), if everything is so good in your life, I wonder why you are participating here?

    Actually I never replied because the question was downright stupid personal attack. So right, I didn’t realize one had to be a miserable failure at life, jobless, penniless, and possibly an uncultured redneck, in order to participate in a little social activism. Good catch, Daisy. Way to go on the “white man who overcame adversity shouldn’t be given a voice” front.

  181. dungone says:

    @Daisy, Oh, also, I’m sorry for not fitting into your “they’re just a bunch of whiny men complaining because they can’t get laid” narrative. I realize that this might cause some level of grief, but I can’t help it if I’m not the sore loser that you would like me to be.

  182. Hugh, thanks for your various clarifications. (I don’t know if you’re still reading this, but maybe you’ve subscribed by email. Sorry it took me so long to respond — I was busy, then I was sick, then I was sick and busy.)

    I’m sure it would comfort all the middle/upper class people, intellectuals, land-owners, or businessmen who died during Stalin’s Purges and the Maoist Campaign to Suppress Counterrevolutionaries to know that their deaths were a fluke. If you’d lived in Russia or China during the last century, then what I’m talking about would certainly have been an everyday oppression.

    Holy cheap shot, Batman!

    I really dislike this sort of rhetorical attack, where you imply that I’m being callous to the suffering of Stalin’s victims because I disagree with you about the meaning of the word “oppression.”

    Obviously, the suffering of Stalin’s victims does matter, and Stalinism was immoral, hateful and wrong.

    But “oppression” is not a synonym for “suffering,” nor is it it a synonym for “injustice”; I am not callous to the injustice and suffering caused by Stalinism just because I doubt that it makes sense to call rich people an oppressed class.

    Your cheap shot aside, I’m open to the idea that there can be particular times and places where being in the upper class means being oppressed, as long as you’re not saying that this is generally the case, or that in (say) our own culture we can’t say the poor are oppressed and the rich aren’t because it’s just to hard to measure these things.

    so if men elsewhere are being violent and oppressive, it must just be men being pigs because they are oppressive jerks like that, while women are just innocent pawns who don’t have anything to do with men’s behavior.

    I didn’t say anything that is even remotely like this view, so I’m not sure why you’re bringing it up.

    Now, let’s look at your other example: gun molls.

    Of course, I agree with you, that out of the thousands of thugs during the peak of gangsterism, no doubt there were some individuals knowingly pressured into being thugs by their girlfriends or wives.

    You could also have pointed out that in some cases, the so-called “gun molls” were actually active criminals themselves — Al Capone’s wife (listed on the page you linked to) was a bootlegger, for example.

    The problem with this is that I tend to think of these people — especially when you get down to the lower levels of the organizations, where the men pulling the triggers are found — as being effects as much as they are causes of violence. I don’t deny they bear responsibility for their own actions — but if you want to go to the roots of violence in the 1920s, I think it makes a lot more sense to talk about things like prohibition and the attitudes that led to prohibition, not to mention the Great Depression, than it does to talk about poor gangster guys who just had NO CHOICE but to shoot people because they wanted to get laid and some women find violence hot, so really isn’t it the woman’s fault?

    Daran caricatures criticism of your views as saying that “female behavior” should never be, er, problemacized — but what I’m actually criticizing is your PUA-view of women’s contribution to society as being giving or withholding sex from men, as if there aren’t a zillion more important ways women contribute to culture, and as if men aren’t responsible for what they do to get laid.

    Sticking with prohibition, for instance, it’s obvious that many of the people most responsible for prohibition — and, just as importantly, for the we-must-never-compromise-with-reality mentality about how prohibition should be enforced that made prohibition so deadly — were women, and prohibition was in turn a major contributing factor to gangster culture and gang violence.

    Insofar as your view is that culture (including oppressive culture) can be created by both men and women, as shown in the prohibition example, I certainly agree with you. I just think the PUA-philosophy spin you put on this doesn’t truly focus on significant root causes, and comes disturbingly close to saying that men aren’t responsible for their own actions if they’re doing it to get laid or to support their wives.

  183. dungone says:

    But “oppression” is not a synonym for “suffering,” nor is it it a synonym for “injustice”; I am not callous to the injustice and suffering caused by Stalinism just because I doubt that it makes sense to call rich people an oppressed class.

    I actually disagree with Hugh for another reason, mainly because I view the Bolsheviks as replacing one privileged class with another, namely themselves, and because for years the way Communism in the USSR ran the show was broken down across ethnic lines, with the “proper” Russians around the Moscow region presiding over all the lesser ethnicities that made up their nation. The working class struggle in the USSR has always been a pretext for the criminals and racists that ran the country and not much more than that.

    OTOH I disagree with you on principle because what Hugh was talking about does happen and the statistics do bear it out, plus it just makes sense. But moreover, I think it’s an intellectual failure to conclude that any one particular group is simply incapable of being oppressed. This way of thinking is normally called tribalism, which is a mental framework that dehumanizes groups that compete with you for resources and allows you to do horrific things to them without losing any sleep over it. I think that the very nature of saying that someone is incapable of being oppressed is in itself a form of oppression. But that’s just me.

  184. dungone says:

    @Barry,

    I think it makes a lot more sense to talk about things like prohibition and the attitudes that led to prohibition, not to mention the Great Depression, than it does to talk about poor gangster guys who just had NO CHOICE but to shoot people because they wanted to get laid and some women find violence hot, so really isn’t it the woman’s fault?

    This is really dishonest. Like you yourself claimed later, women were hugely involved in the push for prohibition. I don’t think either Hugh or Daran or any “PUA-view” individual has ever claimed otherwise, in fact, this is what they have consistently pointed out. I have personally been lambasted by feminists in prior arguments for pointing out that Prohibition was one example of where men as a class could be oppressed by women as a class.

    It’s also really shortsighted to dismiss what Hugh or Daran say because, again, it’s born out in statistics. We know that the most violent men in a particular community are more likely to have female companions and father children. Mocking the “PUA-view” won’t change it. Think about it… men in our society are forced to be a provider to women. So it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with women being like, “oooh, I like how you just murdered 5 people, let’s have sex!” It’s more like everyone else, who can’t provide, their women leave them. The gangsters, who can provide, their women stick around. This is the root cause of what ends up being a feedback loop that eventually in it’s most extreme manifestations does result in the gun molls and other women who literally do get off on that type of thing.

  185. Duggone quoted from me, selecting his quote to cut out my very next sentence, in which I wrote:

    I’m open to the idea that there can be particular times and places where being in the upper class means being oppressed…

    After selectively cutting out that sentence, Duggone wrote:

    But moreover, I think it’s an intellectual failure to conclude that any one particular group is simply incapable of being oppressed.

    The dishonesty is really pretty impressive.

    Like you yourself claimed later, women were hugely involved in the push for prohibition. I don’t think either Hugh or Daran or any “PUA-view” individual has ever claimed otherwise, in fact, this is what they have consistently pointed out.

    I have no idea what Hugh or Daran has said about prohibition in other forums, nor can I be expected to know. In this thread, in his discussion of gun molls, Hugh strongly emphasized how women participate by being girlfriends and wives of men — in fact, I don’t even recall him mentioning any other types of female participation, and if he did it was just in passing.

    The idea that I’m being “dishonest” by responding to what Hugh wrote in this thread, rather than having an encyclopedic knowledge of everything he’s ever written on the subject, is ridiculous.

    I have personally been lambasted by feminists in prior arguments for pointing out that Prohibition was one example of where men as a class could be oppressed by women as a class.

    Well, that’s a pretty foolish argument. There were men and women crucially involved in both prohibition and the movement to repeal prohibition, and people hurt by prohibition included both women and men. Trying to boil down a complex social moment like prohibition into women as a class versus men as a class hides the way that people of both sexes, in prohibition, had agency and took action.

    It’s also really shortsighted to dismiss what Hugh or Daran say because, again, it’s born out in statistics. We know that the most violent men in a particular community are more likely to have female companions and father children.

    So am I to assume it that this gentleman is a mass murderer? I’m pretty positive that the vast, overwhelming number of men with children aren’t particularly violent; violence is pretty obviously not the sole or the dominant strategy for mating in our society. Furthermore, in many cases, it seems likely being violent makes it less likely a man will get married, due to the higher chances of winding up in prison (and thus out of the likely-to-get-married group). Although anecdotally, there are of course some women who marry violent ex-prisoners, based on statistics it’s a lousy strategy for a man who wants to get married.

    Think about it… men in our society are forced to be a provider to women.

    Mysteriously, even though I’m a guy, no one has ever forced me to be a provider to women.

    By the way, as of 2007, 69% of married women were in the work force. The typical married couple consists of two wage-earners, not a husband providing for a wife. (Although the average husband earns more than his wife, that doesn’t mean she’s not providing at all.)

  186. Hugh Ristik says:

    @Barry,

    Let’s move on and talk more about gender.

    Of course, I agree with you, that out of the thousands of thugs during the peak of gangsterism, no doubt there were some individuals knowingly pressured into being thugs by their girlfriends or wives.

    That’s true, but this is probably just a minority case. I’m talking about a bunch of different scenarios (using gang activity as an example):

    – Women pressuring men into gangsterism
    – Women being more attracted to gangsters than to non-gangsters
    – Women who actively assist their men in gang activity
    – Women knowing that their boyfriends and husbands engage in gang activity, and condoning it
    – Women who provide emotional support to their men who are engaged in gang activity
    – Women knowing that their boyfriends and husbands engage in gang activity, and looking the other way, trying not to know
    – Women failing to discourage their men from considering gang activities (assuming that the women have any input in that culture)
    – Women who expect a standard of living that men can only effectively achieve by getting into gang activity

    (And yes, “women” in this case refers to a subset of women.)

    I think it makes a lot more sense to talk about things like prohibition and the attitudes that led to prohibition, not to mention the Great Depression, than it does to talk about poor gangster guys who just had NO CHOICE but to shoot people because they wanted to get laid and some women find violence hot, so really isn’t it the woman’s fault?

    I agree. Good thing I’m not saying that.

    but what I’m actually criticizing is your PUA-view of women’s contribution to society as being giving or withholding sex from men, as if there aren’t a zillion more important ways women contribute to culture, and as if men aren’t responsible for what they do to get laid.

    Sure, there are a bunch of factors in violent behavior, and a bunch of ways that women contribute to culture. But those aren’t what I’m talking about. I just want people to be able to talk about how (a subset of) women support oppression by men, because I think it’s not a subject that’s been significantly explored.

    People’s choices about how they select and treat their mates is an important factor in civilization. Segments of female populations indeed influence men’s behavior due to how their treat their husbands, boyfriends, and potential mates. If pickup is your main example of an analysis of those phenomena, then perhaps your view is too insular.

    Here is an article by an African-American woman entitled Ladies, Stop Giving Vajayjay to Criminals. That message wouldn’t be necessary if there wasn’t a problem. Here is one of the comments (bolding mine):

    No, that is not the chief point of the article. The author does reference that men would be less MOTIVATED to be criminals, but to think that a woman’s body alone would be enough to change a criminal mindset is silly.

    What the author means is that right now in many urban areas, young men see that the guys that are the crooks get the most beautiful women, the most women, have the money, and have the power. However, young men want sex more than they want pretty much anything, so the thought that they could have the power and money and not have women falling all over them takes a lot of the shine off of being a criminal.

    Men do what they do to get the attention and favor of women. Men are followers, and the #1 direction they follow in is where the pussy went!

    So if women didn’t pay any attention to and favor men with criminal mindsets or behaviors, then those men would be more motivated to behave instead in ways that GOT THE ATTENTION AND FAVOR OF WOMEN.

    I don’t agree with this author completely, but I’m trying to show you that it’s not just PUAs who think that female mating choices influence the incentives on men.

    So am I to assume it that this gentleman is a mass murderer? I’m pretty positive that the vast, overwhelming number of men with children aren’t particularly violent; violence is pretty obviously not the sole or the dominant strategy for mating in our society.

    Note that I’m taking a global perspective; I’m not just talking about our society. I disagree with dungone saying “We know that the most violent men in a particular community are more likely to have female companions and father children,” but violent men being successful occurs in some societies.

    Furthermore, in many cases, it seems likely being violent makes it less likely a man will get married, due to the higher chances of winding up in prison (and thus out of the likely-to-get-married group). Although anecdotally, there are of course some women who marry violent ex-prisoners, based on statistics it’s a lousy strategy for a man who wants to get married.

    That depends on the crime. Male serial killers are hot stuff. The desire of some women for Death Row inmates doesn’t force men into crime, but it supports criminal men rather than law-abiding men.

    Insofar as your view is that culture (including oppressive culture) can be created by both men and women, as shown in the prohibition example, I certainly agree with you. I just think the PUA-philosophy spin you put on this doesn’t truly focus on significant root causes, and comes disturbingly close to saying that men aren’t responsible for their own actions if they’re doing it to get laid or to support their wives.

    Well, then as long as you focus on what I’m actually saying, rather than what you think I’m close to saying, then it sounds like we agree. Just to reiterate:

    Men being directly pressured by wives into violence, or having to choose between crime and celibacy are probably unusual. I think women actively pushing men into violence and crime is probably rare. Yet as a feminist, I think you would agree that social pressures don’t need to be 100% strong to be problematic.

    When women support or condone existing criminality in men, then they are supporting an oppressive system, and they are sending a message to other men violence and criminality is desirable, or at least tolerable. This message doesn’t force men into criminality any more than men’s desires force women into dieting and anorexia. But it could tip vulnerable individuals into the wrong choices. Likewise, a wife who knows her husband is considering crime could tip him one way or the other.

  187. Hugh Ristik says:

    @Barry,

    I really dislike this sort of rhetorical attack, where you imply that I’m being callous to the suffering of Stalin’s victims because I disagree with you about the meaning of the word “oppression.”

    Barry, I don’t believe that you are being callous to the suffering of Stalin’s victims. I was being flippant because you seemed to be painting them as an anomaly:

    I don’t think we should count classes of people whose “oppression” doesn’t include everyday oppression, and only consists of events that happen extremely rarely, as “oppressed.”

    The landowning, business, aristocrat, and “bourgeois” classes did receive oppression on an everyday basis in Russia, China, and Cambodia (and elsewhere) during the last century. You might not define that as oppression, but if the Red Terror wasn’t oppression, then I don’t know what is.

    Saying that such events are “rare”, requires dismissing last century’s history in two of the biggest countries in the world. Hence my sarcasm. Maybe I misunderstood you, but I think the gravity of this subject requires care, which is why I’m doing my best to clarify my own statements.

    Your cheap shot aside, I’m open to the idea that there can be particular times and places where being in the upper class means being oppressed, as long as you’re not saying that this is generally the case, or that in (say) our own culture we can’t say the poor are oppressed and the rich aren’t because it’s just to hard to measure these things.

    Great, then it looks like we are basically in agreement. I tried to make clear that I was specifically talking about cultures and times where some sort of class revolution occurred. I do indeed believe that the rich and upper / middle classes generally oppress the poorer and lower classes, rather than the other way around. I just think there are cases in history where this relationship is reversed, which should be instructive for us.

    I said:

    so if men elsewhere are being violent and oppressive, it must just be men being pigs because they are oppressive jerks like that, while women are just innocent pawns who don’t have anything to do with men’s behavior.

    You said:

    I didn’t say anything that is even remotely like this view, so I’m not sure why you’re bringing it up.

    I don’t think you hold such a view. Rather, it’s my impression of a particular feminist/chivalrous attitude. Objecting to that attitude is the reason that I’ve been focusing on female support of oppressor perpetrated by men.

  188. ballgame says:

    I’m pretty positive that the vast, overwhelming number of men with children aren’t particularly violent; violence is pretty obviously not the sole or the dominant strategy for mating in our society.

    I’m not so sure, Barry, but I would phrase things very differently. I believe that the overwhelming majority of males are compelled to participate in the male dominance hierarchy while growing up. This hierarchy is often violently enforced. Boys who fail to establish a perception that they are capable of violence (whether or not they ever actually ‘behave violently’) run much higher risks of being bullied and suffering lifelong impairments to their self-esteem (and capacity to trust). This can have a devastating impact on one’s ability to have romantic interactions with women, given the fundamental role self-confidence plays in the required male role of initiating such interactions and the premium that a substantial number of women place on male status.

    This is a probabilistic observation. That is to say, I don’t doubt that there are married men and fathers who were never perceived to be capable of violence, and violent men who are dateless. But I strongly suspect that if you compared the overall dating/relationship outcomes for ‘males who were perceived to be incapable of violence’ with other males, you would find that they were significantly less successful.

  189. Ballgame — I pretty much agree with that theory, although I’d really like to see some clever social scientists study those specific connections empirically.

  190. dungone says:

    I disagree with dungone saying “We know that the most violent men in a particular community are more likely to have female companions and father children,” but violent men being successful occurs in some societies.

    And I would like to defer to you on that. I would have liked to have said what you did about it, but I don’t have the same depth of knowledge to recognize that as needing to be pointed out. What I should have said was “poor” or “under-privileged.” As a survival mechanism, it makes sense. When you are going to go hungry unless you take from your neighbor, the man who takes the most from his neighbors can attract the most women. I should say, as well, this applies to white collar crime as well and does not have to involve violence directly. I consider some of the most violent people to be the diamond cartel owners who deal with blood diamonds and CEOs who outsource to developing countries and employ union-busting murderous thugs to police their workfroce there.

  191. Traian says:

    Based on my own experience, I think there’s a roughly equal (and admittedly large) fraction of non-egalitarian masculists and non-egalitarian feminists.
    However, overall, there are much, MUCH more feminists than masculists. That means men’s rights issues will always be at a numerical disadvantage.
    Besides, the non-egalitarian feminists will, more often than not, belittle and ridicule male issues instead of simply ignoring them. In extreme cases they might even exacerbate those issues for a few males (genital mutilation comes to mind).
    So you will have to understand the general distrust towards feminism.

    Plain gender egalitarianism without feminist or masculist labels does sound great, of course, but I don’t think it will gather enough supporters as it is.

  192. Pingback: Igualitarianismo de género « Mi tierra libre

  193. Alodia says:

    SOOOO GOOOOD. Thank you, really. I translated this to Spanish and put it in my blog. I hope you don’t mind… 😀 😀

  194. Pingback: Feminismo, masculismo y equitarismo de género « Xiana GF

  195. Pingback: ¿Por qué traduzco “egalitarianism” como “equitarismo” y no como “igualitarismo”? « Xiana GF

  196. Pingback: Feminist? Masculist? o.O « bubbleofthought

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