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No, Seriously, What About Teh Menz? 
The trial of Dharun Ravi is on HLN, if anybody is home and unemployed, like me… its being carried live. Warning, not the easily disturbed.
This is the webcam-spying thing at Rutgers, where Ravi and cohorts spied on the gay student (Tyler Clementi) who committed suicide. It is harrowing… even more harrowing that there is no real way to charge someone with “driving someone to suicide”–basically it was bullying. They are using a bias crime statute, but what if he had not been gay? They would have just been able to convict on the snooping. Argh! It ties you in knots!
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120221/tyler-clementis-roommate-at-rutgers-accused-cybe
And yes, for interested parties, a woman named Molly Wei was part of the bully-team and was given leniency.
I would have tried their sorry asses together, like the little lovebirds they were.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20487550,00.html
Disgusting.
Sorry the second link won’t do right. Try this one:
http://thecelebritycafe.com/feature/student-receives-leniency-rutgers-webcam-spying-case-05-10-2011
@Daisy:
I can already hear the MRA sites readying a rant about “pussy passes” (a topic that has some merit, though they usually overblow it a little and could use a better term for). It doesn’t seem from what I’m reading like her leniency is primarily (or even necessarily partly) about her gender though — she’s cooperating and selling him out in exchange for it.
“It doesn’t seem from what I’m reading like her leniency is primarily (or even necessarily partly) about her gender though — she’s cooperating and selling him out in exchange for it.”
It’s a tried and true defense that “he made me do it”, even if it doesn’t always work. Karla Homolka got way less than her boyfriend, for example. This plays into agency denial of women (can’t willfully do bad things), and women as pure and angelic. Patriarchy at its finest.
Eventually, everything WILL be alright. Thank you for this post today. Most cheering. Don’t have anything to share on open thread. Just still mourning that little girl made to run for three hours until she died!
Good to hear Ozy is alive and well.
As to the trial,
“It is harrowing… even more harrowing that there is no real way to charge someone with “driving someone to suicide”–basically it was bullying. They are using a bias crime statute, but what if he had not been gay? They would have just been able to convict on the snooping. Argh! It ties you in knots! ”
I understand that I may see a lot of disagreement on this issue, but I don’t think the charges or sentences should be any more severe because the victim killed himself. The perpetrators are responsible for what they did, and need to be held accountable for it. However, I don’t think they can be held responsible for what their victim did to himself as a result. The suicide was Clementi’s choice.
I think holding Ravi culpable for Clementi’s suicide would set a bad precedent.
With regard to Karla Homolka, she played the authorities like a fucking fiddle. She claimed originally that she was abused and was an unwilling participant in the crimes. The authorities didn’t know the full extent of her involvement until after the plea deal was signed. It was only after that, video tapes surfaced that revealed just how much of a willing participant she actually was in the rape and murder of 3 young girls, one of whom was her own sister. She was truly one of the most horrifying people in Canadian history.
Got a post up at Good Men Project this week. (http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/treating-the-hate/)
Got one up at (http://dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com/2009/01/why-yes-women-can-rape-men.html). And I must say I’m a bit disappointed that the trolls that showed up there never come over to may place. Am I really so scary that people won’t even troll me on my own blog?
Damn that second link should be to Womanist Musings. Rest of the comment still applies though.: http://www.womanist-musings.com/2012/02/we-are-still-heading-for-self.html
Danny, you come at things from different perspectives. What you write is not predictable, and that’s a great gift as a writer.
Unpredictability is lots of fun for readers, but *not* for the trolls! 😉
Are you doing ok, Ozy?
Danny, you come at things from different perspectives. What you write is not predictable, and that’s a great gift as a writer.
Unpredictability is lots of fun for readers, but *not* for the trolls!
Yeah but honestly I got out of hand by responding to them. But some good did come of it. And chances are Renee will probably never let me post there again. Someone called me on a Tumblr post a did a while back in which I made fun of a sexual assault.
My rebuttal: evil prevails if good folk fail to act.
Today, I bought girl scout cookies.
I bought girl scout cookies to support an organization that is modern.
@GudEnuf: Since Ozy is depressive I am a little worried too, but the tone of the image is very anti-depression so not very much.
That said, we’re totally here for you Ozy!
Well, things getting better has been the historical trend for quite some time now…
I am glad to hear you are alive Ozy. So am I!
It is good to be alive……
@superglucose – As much as I love the cookies, sadly I cannot support the organization. I simply cannot support an organization that openly discriminates against me. The Girl Guides will not allow me to participate should my daughter wish to join. As much as I applaud their efforts with regard to empowering young girls, I do not agree with their exclusionary policies with regard to fathers or trans women/girls who would wish to join.
@Jesus_Marley:
My partner tells me that Girl Scouts of Colorado allowed a trans girl to join on the grounds that, “If a child identifies as a girl, and the child’s family presents her as a girl, then the Girl Scouts of Colorado welcomes her as a Girl Scout.”
PROGRESS.
That said, my partner ALSO informs me that, once you’re an adult, you’re supposed to be allowed to participate, regardless of gender. My partner was a Girl Scout at one point and continues to actively participate; she routinely helps make accommodations for men who wish to help out (note: by this I mean, sleeping areas and stuff).
From the national web site, on the volunteer page:
That said, my partner FURTHER informs me that a lot depends on the troop leader. Different troop leaders often have different personal policies, and such policies can slip through the cracks even if they are in direct opposition to national Girl Scout policies (which, if you think about it, is kinda like private versus state versus federal law — but that’s a whole different thread).
Tangentially: aren’t you that big d00d who got grief from security for taking his daughter into the changing room or something? If so, then once again, you have my sympathies.
Correction: my partner prefers the person pronoun “HE” despite estrogen-based sexual anatomy.
Sorry I used “she” — habit.
hmmm…. looks like my posts went into the ether…
Males can be non-member volunteers in a limited capacity. Girl Guides of Canada defines itself as an all-female organization. This is in keeping with our Bylaws and Act of Incorporation. As such, males can assist occasionally with unit activities, but cannot be presented as Members or Unit Guiders, cannot be counted in the adult supervision ratios, and must have a female Guider in attendance when working in any way with Girls. Please see the Supervision section in Safe Guide for more information on males in Guiding.
this is from the guiding essentials PDF. I tried to link in another post but it dissappeared. moderated maybe?
Superglucose: Today, I bought girl scout cookies.
I bought girl scout cookies to support an organization that is modern.
Yeah, now you’re talkin! I’ll give up my Caramel Delites when you pry my cold dead hands from them!!!!
Girl Scout Cookies?
None shall fuck with my Thin Mints!!!
@Jesus_Marley:
Sorry!
I inferred from your original post that you couldn’t support Girl SCOUTS (because we were discussing Girl Scout cookies), not Girl GUIDES.
Sounds to me like Girl Guides needs a wakeup call.
From the Redstocking Manifesto, reproduced at http://www.genderratic.com/?p=987 :
To what extent would an individual man be able to give up his privilege, and how could he go about doing this?
Just came across an interesting video on YouTube that might interest people here (it portrays a reversal of stereotypical dating behavior):
@RF: By the definition given in the first part of your quote it can’t be done
I understand that politically powerful, wealthy, sexually active and psychologically strong men (to address the aspects of male privilege identified by the quote) could probably do something: They could give up their political power and their wealth, or they could use it as leverage in favour of a society which does not disadvantage women. They could be mindful of their sexual activities and ensure that they do not victimize or abuse women. They could use their psychological strength to fight against oppression. They can play an active role in ending a societal model that disadvantages women.
But what about, say, a politically powerless, unemployed, single and celibate, psychologically fragile and/or mentally ill man? Such men share equally in gender privilege, but they have no power to renounce it.
I find myself in such a situation, and would honestly wish I knew what to do. Both for the social reason that I hate the injustice this society and its stupid gender structure represents, but also for the more personal reason that I am finding it increasingly difficult to bear the shame and guilt of my maleness.
The Redstockings also call gay men hateful…because they’re gay, ergo, they obviously hate all women, since they don’t want to have relationships with them.
So I wouldn’t give them the time of day about a privilege discussion. I don’t think you should either.
Schala:
I was using their formulation as a concrete example. They did not invent the concept of male privilege and they are not the only who encourage men to renounce it; I just found their formulation particularly succinct.
“Schala:
I was using their formulation as a concrete example. They did not invent the concept of male privilege and they are not the only who encourage men to renounce it; I just found their formulation particularly succinct.”
If you go on most feminist blogs and even mention female privilege, you’ll be laughed out of the place. Something about privilege being invisible to those who have it doesn’t apply to people born with vaginas apparently.
But, you can’t really renounce privilege. You can choose to minimize the impact it has on your life by being gender nonconforming in looks, attitudes and career choice. Not that it would necessarily be healthy to go against personal inclination. It’s usually more healthy to ignore hegemonic definitions of “what you ought to do” IF it conflicts with what you really want to do, mostly. And even when you do conform in some way, conform in your personal way, not some prescribed way by others. For example, I don’t play FPS games, even though some people think gamers = FPS players. I still call myself a gamer. I don’t feel compelled to play FPS more than I would otherwise be, either.
The concept of male privilege as unidirectional privilege only possessed by men without a counterpart for women, is bullshit in 2012 Canada or the US. It might apply to other places, but I doubt it’s still that unidirectional in genuinely patriarchal countries (as in rule of the father). Did you ever hear about male children being used sexually in Persian countries? Because they are, in great numbers…and no one cares, because penis.
Going by what news outlets and governments say, you’d think juvenile prostitution and human trafficking for the purpose of sexual slavery only happens to girls and women. I mean ONLY. They never even CONSIDER boys and men. Yet there they are, but they fly under the radar, because of what “everyone knows”, that men can’t be abused sexually.
Schala: The Redstockings also call gay men hateful
Quote please? This is certainly news to me.
“Redstockings were also opposed to male homosexuality, which they saw as a deeply misogynist rejection of women. Redstockings’ line on gay men and lesbians is often criticized as homophobic.[7]”
Daisy:
While I was not intending to turn this into a thread about homophobia in the Redstockings, here is a 1976 quote by Carol Hanisch with a very clear anti-gay sentiment:
“Men’s liberationists always bring up ‘confronting their own feelings about men’ by which they mean homosexuality. Male homosexuality is an extension of the reactionary club (meaning both group and weapon). The growth of gay liberation carries contempt for women to the ultimate: total segregation. The desire of men to ‘explore their homosexuality’ really means encouraging the possibility of homosexuality as a reaction against feminist demands.”
I do not know to which degree this sentiment was pervasive in the movement as such, though, or whether it was Hanisch’s own opinion.
Do you have any thoughts about how their call for giving up male privilege can actually be done in practice, by actual men – particularly men who are not politically powerful, wealthy, sexually active or psychologically strong?
To Schala:
Going by what news outlets and governments say, you’d think juvenile prostitution and human trafficking for the purpose of sexual slavery only happens to girls and women. I mean ONLY. They never even CONSIDER boys and men. Yet there they are, but they fly under the radar, because of what “everyone knows”, that men can’t be abused sexually.
Prostitution among men is far less widespread than among women. And medias talk about it : remember the Mark Foley scandal ?
Um, I meant, rather than regurgitating Alice Echols’ gossip from Wikipedia (rolls eyes)–do you have a quote from an actual Redstocking? A position paper? As far as I know, this was never an official position, although individual Redstockings were always homophobic, as nearly everyone was at the time. (Were you free of homophobia in 1969? If so, congratulations!)
Please remember the splits between New York Radical Women and the Redstockings, and the way this bias has been played out in the media. Do not believe everything you read; the professors have written history so that the group THEY belonged to, is always presented as the cool, progressive one. 😉
@Gaius – Unfortunately, both the Girl Scouts (US) and Girl Guides (Canada) are members of the umbrella organization WAGGGS (World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts) which oversees all groups worldwide. While doing research I found that the Guides are changing policy regarding trans women/girls, fathers and men in general are still relegated to the sidelines.
NMMNG:
I do not know the stats for other places, but in my home country of Denmark, more men than women have sold sexual services for money. However, more women than men make their living as prostitutes.
What’s more dangerous for gay men : the homophobia of Rebublicans or the homophobia of Redstockings ? From what I read the Redstockings were a marginal feminist group, so I doubt their influence was so big.
here is a 1976 quote by Carol Hanisch
At the risk of sounding like a Trotskyist (screams), I do not consider the Redstockings after 1973 to be the Redstockings, the way The Who was not The Who after the death of Keith Moon. “Reconstituted” groups are do not have a lot of validity with me. 1976? I don’t consider that the same group at all, and that incarnation of the Redstockings (excuse me for being harsh) was of no real consequence and nobody paid any attention to them, although I remember being mailed one of their newsletters. (And by the time I received that newsletter, it was down to only Hanisch and one other woman.)
RocketFrog, have you ever thought of presenting as a woman for awhile to see what its like? Is this a possibility for you? A (gay male) friend of mine once did this as an experiment, and to see if he felt more vulnerable on the street, etc.
particularly men who are not politically powerful, wealthy, sexually active or psychologically strong?
Well, this IS where the power resides, dude, and if you are not exercising it, there is no privilege for you to give up.
Personally I was completely free of homophobia in 1969, on account of spending that entire year as a number of unconnected organic molecules distributed around the world. These would later be ingested by my parents and used to construct cells that would eventually become me.
🙂
RF, exactly my point.
I am tired of people judging the past by the standards of the present, judging older people by the standards of the young. It prevents people from properly processing the lessons of history.
As I usually say, in discussions like this: “Can you believe all those sweaty people in the 1800s? Why didn’t they just turn on the AC? Whatta bunch dumb fucks they were!”
That’s how it sounds.
Daisy:
I considered it once, when I was in my early twenties. But it would be very difficult for me to pass. While I am quite short (somewhat below average for men, slightly above average for women), I am also balding (although I suppose that could be covered up using a sufficiently convincing wig), barrel-chested, broad-shouldered and (the main stumbling block) have a very deep bass voice.
Speaking of Trotskyism: When I was more politically active than I am now, I found myself in the peculiar situation that the three main local left-wing factions all thought that I was The Enemy. The hard-line communists accused me of being a Trotskyist, the Trotskyists called me an anarchist, and the anarchists called me a Stalinist.
Daisy:
I think intergenerational respect is difficult (but necessary and important) in both directions. Many older political activists I know think the things that young people are concerned with are stupid, unimportant trifles (compared to all the real issues that people dealt with in ’68). Some time ago, I overheard an old activist grumbling about how young people today are protesting “Internet crap” (like SOPA, PIPA and ACTA), while in his time, they were marching to ban nuclear power.
@ Adam
Thanks! I love those.
Hey, speaking of linking youtube stuff:
It’s thew new Brave preview. The trailer’s good, and I hope the movie is good. Obviously being forced to marry someone who wins an archery contest is the bigger sexism here, and being made to wear a dress so tight you can’t lift your arms isn’t so good either.* But the movie specifically addresses (Ha. ‘A-dresses.’ Sorry!) those forms of sexism and plays into the rather annoying habit of making every guy who opposes an action-girl some kind of outlandish buffoon. I’m sure I’ll see the movie; I see everything Pixar does. Plus, it so happens that I have an unruly red-haired, ginger-skinned, dress-hating daughter of scottish descent who’d probably really appreciate a character so easily relatable. I’m not trying to invite a bunch of hate on a kid movie I haven’t even seen yet; I’m just pointing out a lazy old joke that’s really starting to get me sighing and rolling my eyes.
*Though women have been, ah, arching in dresses for a long time. I don’t know why the Scots would have such trouble Hope this link works
@Jay
Looks like it could be a good movie. I do notice however that it seems to be another variation on the “strong girl succeeds in overcoming gender-based oppression to show how powerful women really are” theme.
Regarding the original video I posted, I see there’s a part 1 to it that focuses on the bar scene and is also quite well done.
I do notice however that it seems to be another variation on the “strong girl succeeds in overcoming gender-based oppression to show how powerful women really are” theme.
Well, I do think it’s a theme that needs doing from time to time. Plus, unless I’m forgetting a movie, Pixar was due for something fem-focused. I mostly don’t like the laughable male competition. I’d like for my kids to get their “don’t let other people tell you what it means to be you,” message without it being so specifically “boys are usually useless, there’s nothing special about what they can do, and the only reason girls don’t beat them all the time is because they won’t let the girls play.”
There are other alarm bells for me.
1. Her brothers appear to be triplets, and in media being identical twins and triplets is often a method of dehumanizing the characters in question. (They’ll never appear alone, they’ll speak in unison, they interact more with each other than the outside world, their opinions and actions are completely interchangeable. To me, it’s always seemed nice and insulting for anyone who might actually have a twin sibling.)
2. One of the challengers has prodigious strength; I’m cynically concerned that he’ll turn out to be the ‘good one.’ These storylines frequently take many points of focus from men that are normally considered within the masculine domain. As if it were some sort of consolation prize, places where men typically excel and women usually have no interest in competing get blown up to ridiculously superhuman levels. Things like strength and size, among others, are exaggerated to where you have the acceptable men as one note jokes that are seven feet tall, or able to casually lift boulders , which are things 99.9999 percent of the male population will never be able to achieve. Again, I think it’s ironically meant to be reassuring that women don’t want to “take” everything from men, but it’s roughly as considerate as having a group of incompetent women where the one nice one has a completely unbelievable rack, can feel a pea through seven mattresses, or whatever stupidly gendered unlikely stereotype one prefers.
I never mind the “Girls Rule!” It’s the “and Boy Drool,” part that gets me. Hopefully, it won’t be as bad as all that and I’m just being a pessimistic paranoid dude.
HAHAHAHAHA! Some idiot online just called me a “virgin” because I play video games for my enjoyment rather than, as he says, to impress “girls.”
1) No, not a virgin.
2) Sorry bub, not interested in girls. Women and men for me.
In reply to Paul S question about my nick: https://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/hard-hitting-piece-on-male-rape-at-feministe/#comment-31136
Replying here to not derail too much off topic on that thread.
I was not aware that Tamen also were a Mandarin word. Something learned today, thanks. I even got curious enough to discover that I have “my own” Wikipedia page – there is however nothing about me on that page.
I created the nick on the fly when I needed to create a character for a MUD in ’92. It contains a couple of letters from my real name and jumbled some letters together until I got some alternatives I could pronounce in my native language as well as English and which could pass as a name in a role playing setting (as opposed to let’s say PimpledAss2000). I decided for the version which ended with -men as a weak gender indicator for people interacting with me (or my roleplayed character) on that MUD and it was close enough to for instance Saruman to pass as a role playing name in that MUD as it was based on Middle Earth mythology.
Shortly after I learned that tamen means “nevertheless” or “however” in Latin and since (as a search on this very page reveals) however is a word I use not infrequently when writing in English (that fact was pointed out to me by the guy making me aware of the latin meaning of tamen) I kept that nick when going on to a now long defunct BBS and have kept it since.
Sorry, just a nerdy and boring tale, nothing exciting and excotic.
@Tamen
Thank you for the response. I too learned something new today.
While we’re vaguely on the topic of China and Mandarin Chinese here:
http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/pictures/foreigners-chinese-composition-amuses-chinese-netizens.html
I thought this was highly entertaining. The pictured handwritten story is about a date between a man named Little Li (“little” is a kinda-sorta title of familiarity for young folk) and a woman named Little Bai. The one commenter saying that the last line makes this story is absolutely right:
Original Text of the Final Sentence: 现在小白不爱小力了。
Literal Translation: Now Little Bai doesn’t love Little Li, but she used to.
Semantic Translation: Little Bai doesn’t love Little Li anymore.
It’s especially funny because (to my knowledge – I have as much interaction with native Chinese people as a US citizen can, but I’m still flawed in my understanding of many things) in Mandarin you don’t just throw around the word “love” like you do in English, and the interactions being described in the story are that of a first date. In China (again, to my knowledge) there’s a stricter underlying code to the matter of who pays for a meal: if the woman lets the man pay, she’s signifying considerable interest; if the woman pays for her half, she’s very likely uninterested in a second date; and if a woman pays for the entire meal, she might as well be turning on a neon sign that says, “NEVER AGAIN”. That a feeling of love is being attributed to the woman in this situation, and that that love is apparently so fickle, is just so out of place that hilarity ensues.
Anyhow, chinaSMACK is a superb website for anyone interested in China, and especially for anyone learning Mandarin. It offers up English translations done by humans of not only stories of interest and news found on the internet in Chinese, but also translations of comments on those stories. Also, when you scroll over the translated text, the original Chinese text will pop out. Finally, they have a glossary of Chinese internet slang, which they link to anytime those slang terms pop up in any translated text.
US citizen living in the US*
I posted a link to http://www.mantowncandles.com/index.html in the “The Masculinization of Femme Stuff” and I thought my long post there was long enough and I felt I was getting off topic but I wanted to add this:
I love humor. Comedy is my favorite genre and a neccesary spice to any narrative I’m likely to actually enjoy. That being said, sometimes less is more. I wish (a great number of) men would stop using humor to guard their actual emotions all the time. This is why I get a nice candle like “Fresh Earth” next to freakin’ “Sunday Dump.” How is anyone supposed to recognize a cry for inclusion when you punctuate your plea by lifting your leg and farting? Humor frequently deconstructs and sometimes that means you have nothing left.
In the same vein, I’m tired of people pointing to parodies to prove that they get it, they’re cool, and they love what you love so they can totally criticize what you love. I’m not saying if your favorite disaster movie is ‘Airplane’ you don’t like disaster movies, but it’s a rather eccentric choice and and if you can’t name another non-comedic disaster movie you like then I think you mostly just like lampoons. Specifically, I love, really love, Empowered but if one more person uses it as their passport to criticize what level of sexiness is allowed in comic books then I’m moving to Australia. Just say what’s on your mind without the “I’m no prude, but…” hemming and hawing! I’ll own my sexism and you own your prudery!