Clarisse Thorn’s New PUA Ebook

Just in time for International Women’s Day, badass feminist and Friend of NSWATM Clarisse Thorn‘s first book, Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser, is available on Kindle.

I was lucky enough to be able to read an early copy. Originally, when I got the email, I intended to read the first chapter and then do a few chores. Six hours later, the dishes were undone, the laundry was growing musty in the dryer, and I was doublechecking the last page just in case the book had grown an appendix while I wasn’t looking.

To be fair, I am not sure if there is a target audience targetier than me for Confessions, since it combines many of my favorite things to think about: pick-up artistry, kink, sex-positivity, feminism,  Deep Thoughts about how relationships work, and gossip about other people’s sex lives. I am pretty sure the only way it could be more up my alley is if it included an extensive discussion of My Little Pony and Star Wars. So, you know, if you aren’t interested in pick-up artists and feminism and other people’s sex lives, you will probably enjoy this book much less than I did.

Clarisse Thorn is a sex-positive blogger and activist who focuses a lot on masculinity and BDSM; she’s perhaps most famous around the people-who-talk-about-men circles for her post on creep-shaming. She is also impressively well-liked. Seriously, that lady. I have no idea what magic she uses to make MRAs and radical feminists think she’s awesome, but she needs to loan me some. (Maybe she stole all of Hugo Schwyzer’s likeability?)

Confessions focuses on a period in Clarisse’s life in which she became obsessed with PUAs and the lens they offer for modern dating, sexuality, gender norms, and masculinity. (I am currently in the middle of a similar period in my life, and am kicking myself that I didn’t think to write a book about it.) She intersperses theoretical discussions of PUA theory and sex-positive feminist ideas with stories from her romantic life and of her interactions with PUAs.

Confessions of a Pick-Up Artist Chaser features a lot of people you’ll recognize, if you spend a lot of time hanging around the sexy parts of the gendersphere. Holly Pervocracy gets name-checked; Hugh Ristik is extensively quoted; the Heartiste Formerly Known As Roissy has his own section, in which it is pointed out that he is rather a misogynistic asshole and pretty much PUAs: What Not To Do.

(Gah. This post is taking me forever because I keep rereading the book on accident. People, stop writing things I like.)

However, I think it provides some… context, perhaps?… that a lot of the gendersphere discussions don’t. Clarisse’s big strength in Confessions is her empathy. A lot of times people only understand their little corner of the gendersphere and have ideas that are at best strawmen and at worst outright lies about the other corners. But Clarisse understands why men might take up pickup, and how it would help them, and how it can become destructive. She understands the eroticism of power, both in vanilla and kinky sex. She understands actual sex-positivity, not the caricatured version of “we are all SLUTS because it is EMPOWERING” that idiots continually push.

Clarisse Thorn understands that shit is complicated. To pick an example she discusses in the book: a lot of feminists, including me, adopt the “you have to talk about sex, or you have to get used to not having sex until you learn to talk about it” position on sexual communication. However, she points out that a lot of people prefer nonverbal communication, that some people are better at nonverbal communication than verbal, and that people have lots of understandable reasons not to explicitly communicate. In fact, even a lot of sex-positive people are not exactly paragons of explicit verbal communication of everything ourselves. On the other hand, she still gets that explicit verbal communication has many, many advantages (particularly for non-normative sex like BDSM and polyamory) that shouldn’t be ignored.

Another strength of Confessions is the personal nature of it. Although I have a minor degree of PUA obsession myself, it mostly manifests in making all my friends take the Heartiste Formerly Known As Roissy’s Dating Market Value Test. (I’m lesser beta as a guy, greater beta as a girl.) Nevertheless, I can recognize a lot of the thought processes Clarisse goes through– the second-guessing, the trying to read people, the constant wondering if you’re genuine or just playing the game without even knowing it. Not to mention that her personal anecdotes quite often serve to illustrate her theories!

So yeah. Confessions of a Pickup Artist is a very good book. Buy it! Read it! Tell your friends! Also if you are a pickup artist and want to run game on me PLEASE do so, I am endlessly curious about whether it’d work on me.

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168 Responses to Clarisse Thorn’s New PUA Ebook

  1. Tapio Peltonen says:

    Sadly, only available for Kindle. I’d pay at least four times the price for a dead-tree book.

  2. There is free Kindle reader software available for just about every major computing platform including Windows PC, Macintosh, IOS, Android, etc.

  3. @Tapio, that’s really good to know. I wasn’t sure whether I was going to bother releasing a paper version of the book because it will in fact be really expensive. (It’s long, so the costs are high.) But if you are willing to pay so much more for it, then I’ll do it.

  4. Feckless says:

    Out of curiosity, can one read the kindle-format easily on his/her home pc? I am a noob with kindles.

    Ha, almost an alpha…..almost. (I’ll never be a pua I guess)

  5. Kindle has an assortment of free apps that allow you to read Kindle books on smartphones or computers:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1000493771

  6. And Ozy, thank you so much for this incredibly kind review. I’m not so sure I’m very well-liked, haha … I try not to let it get to me when people are angry, so maybe that’s why you think I’m so well-liked ; )

  7. Pingback: » “Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser” NOW AVAILABLE

  8. The_L says:

    @feckless: The Kindle apps for PC and mobile have always worked very nicely for me. Some public-domain poetry books have issues, but only the free copies. The periodic deep-discount sales are pretty cool too. I got a volume of steampunk short stories for $3, so now I have something AWESOME to read while waiting in long lines. (Well, aside from the Archie Sonic app. Yay, guilty pleasures.)

    Seconding the desire to see this book in print form! This sounds like the sort of book I’d want to pass on–my parents have drunk the Fox News Kool-Aid, and my bro, who lives with them, has occasionally shown signs of picking up some very bad attitudes from them. It’s easier to share a book when it’s not tied to your Kindle account. >.>

  9. kilo says:

    Bought it a minute or two after I saw Charlie’s post. Still reading it, and enjoying it a lot so far. Thoughtful, well written and incredibly interesting. Occasionally painful for me, but I guess that is to be expected and I can live with that. If you’re familiar with Clarisse’s other writings and the various long threads on her blog, there will be bits that you recognize. They’re still great on the second (or third or fourth…) reading, so I don’t mind. Great job, Clarisse!

    Ozy, considering that for pretty much everything in “game”, the complete opposite and everything in between is as well, if there is anything that would work, some kind of game would as well. I’m quite sure that Juggler’s “best sentence to say to a woman” would totally work on me, so it may well be the ‘best sentence to say to a person’.

  10. I bought Clarisse’s e-book literally SECONDS after I found out it had gone up for sale. I haven’t started it yet (I’m very close to finishing another book first) – but the only issue I have so far is calling PUAs “hideous men.” I don’t know if it’s tongue and cheek, and probably agree that many/most/nearly all PUAs have hideous aspects to their personhood – but it starts me off thinking the book will be sensationalistic and slammy – which CT is not (I know because I read her regularly) so I’m a bit torn.

    @Ozy:
    I have no idea what magic she uses to make MRAs and radical feminists think she’s awesome, but she needs to loan me some.
    No idea? Surely, you jest:

    Clarisse’s big strength in Confessions is her empathy.

    Clarisse’s gigantic heart – a genuine caring for other people (all people) – is her “magic” and it extends far beyond this book – it permeates all of her writing.

    The Gendersphere has far, far, far too much anger, pain and rage. And it’s understandable – few things in life are more closely tied to our identity than our gender and sexuality. Political parties change, religious beliefs shift and/or are dropped entirely – but each individual person’s gender identity is so core and personal that defensiveness is the default. Clarisse’s gentle hand does wonders when dealing with such gun-shy animals as us.

    Lastly, Ozy, I don’t think PUA game would “work” any on you any more than it “works” on other women: If a confident man who you are physically attracted to expresses sexual attraction to you – you will be just as free to make your own decisions about sleeping with him as any other woman.

    The only thing PUA/Game does is help low-self-confidence men give the appearance of confidence and give them recipes for expressing sexual attraction to women they are attracted to. When it works (and eventually, it will) most guys think it was the Rain Dance of PUA/Game that helped them attract a woman.

    I say this coming from a guy who used to use “seduction” to attract women. Eventually I felt a little guilty because I thought I was “hypnotizing” women to like me – so I dropped the act and just tried to be myself. Women were still attracted to me. The only thing that changed between Pre-Game EE and Post-Game EE was that I was no longer intimidated by women I found attractive. That’s it.

  11. kilo says:

    EE,

    but the only issue I have so far is calling PUAs “hideous men.” I don’t know if it’s tongue and cheek, and probably agree that many/most/nearly all PUAs have hideous aspects to their personhood – but it starts me off thinking the book will be sensationalistic and slammy – which CT is not (I know because I read her regularly) so I’m a bit torn.

    It’s a reference to David Foster Wallace’s “Brief Interviews With Hideous Men”. Parts of that played a role in the giant threads on Clarisse’s blog (which are a great read if you have a lot of time), starting about here: http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2009/12/09/manliness-and-feminism-the-followup/#comment-5894

    I know what you mean though, it’s not easy to get the reference, but easy to misunderstand.

  12. Clarisse’s gigantic heart – a genuine caring for other people (all people) – is her “magic” and it extends far beyond this book – it permeates all of her writing.

    The Gendersphere has far, far, far too much anger, pain and rage. And it’s understandable – few things in life are more closely tied to our identity than our gender and sexuality. Political parties change, religious beliefs shift and/or are dropped entirely – but each individual person’s gender identity is so core and personal that defensiveness is the default. Clarisse’s gentle hand does wonders when dealing with such gun-shy animals as us.

    Wow, EE! I don’t have enough hands to do a movie slow-clap that builds into thunderous applause so let this ‘this’ reflect my agreement as best as it can.

    This.

  13. Schala says:

    “Political parties change, religious beliefs shift and/or are dropped entirely – but each individual person’s gender identity is so core and personal that defensiveness is the default.”

    I dunno, a lot of people seem to deny they have a gender identity apart from that fostered upon them by society, stereotypes, and I bet many would be at a loss if make-up and gender-differentiated clothing didn’t exist to “signify their membership”. Because they’re not even sure of who they are for the most. Going with the motions is not being certain about your gender identity. It’s not even looking for it.

  14. marc2020 says:

    I will readily admit to being somewhat confused by the whole PUA thing if I’m honest speaking as a man who feels desire in a way that deviates from the heterosexual norm.

    I mean if I like a girl I’ve never been afraid of just talking to her and seeing how it goes and the few times I have been in the mood have worked out quite well for me. Sure a couple of times I was rejected but hey rejection I was bought up to believe was just something that sometimes happens and it’s not the end of the world.

    So the sub culture with all its weird jargon and code words baffles me to a great extent the analogy I’ve found that best describes it is that it sounds like a military operation to take over a hostile nation rather than having a good time as I’ve said before on other blogs.

    I’m not knocking it or anything I just find it confusing and also I’ve noticed that some members of the PUA community use derogatory words and which to me sound a hell of allot like shaming tactics to bully men into buying their products like calling them losers or but that’s probably just the extreme minority.

  15. Dovahkintastic says:

    @marc2020

    Shaming language for guys who have difficulty approaching women or getting a positive reaction if they do approach is pretty endemic to society in general, PUA hardly has a monopoly on that (though it wouldn’t surprise me if they did lay it on a extra heavy, to try to encourage investment in their ideas/products).

    If your reference to being different from the norm was in your ability to approach (as opposed to something not specified in your comment), I would argue that that actually conforms to the norm pretty well, in that guys are expected (almost required, from the perspective of some) to be the ones who approach/escalate, *and* are expected to do it confidently and with assurance. This comes a lot more naturally to some than to others… being shy, having a lack of experience, negative experiences from approaches, being worried you’ll be considered creepy, low elf esteem, there are a ton of reasons a guy might not be able to conform there… and there aren’t really many resources or a lot of advice out there that isn’t mostly platitudes. I disagree with a lot of PUA stuff, but I can see why its tempting to a lot of guys.

    I’ve got friends who, after college, loved to talk about how you needed job experience to get a job. I managed to get a job right after graduating, but the fields they were going into often required internships, which they weren’t able to get while they were still in school and no experience was necessary. To some guys who skipped the awkward flirting/expressing interest/dating/relationshippy stuff of High School or College, they hit the real world without the experience and confidence they feel they’re expected to have.

    Oops, didn’t mean that reply to be so long. At any rate, looking forward to reading the book!

  16. Still angsty says:

    That whole pua thing is an insult to anybody who have successfully overthrown gender roles stereotypes. For me, it’s the level zero of my own development. Bring me back in my early teens when I rejected all the girls who came to me in disgust of this reality that I had already perfectly identified, but wrongly took as immuable.

    Which I still do during periods of heavy dysphoria, but I always remember how I have finally crushed gender roles, making the girls the subjects not the objects. Yeah, even the “HOT” ones, you pathetic assclown. (OMG SHE’S A 10!! … some men are really faggots, uh?)

    Because it’s possible to set different rules, peoples.

    Now, I’m disapointed to see any support for this kind of bollocks on this blog. To understand the gender dynamic is important, To submit and enforce it is supporting the oppression against all genders.

    Oh, and I fuck in the ear, straight and sincerely, any loser who categorize himself as an alpha or beta. It’s so submissive that it make me puke.

  17. jay says:

    Relevant to this discussion:

    http://www.xkcd.com/1027/

  18. Eurosabra says:

    It’s simple for me, either I do correct pick-up and lead and dominate all the way, or my romantic life is a wasteland. Share vulnerability, and it’s over. Mention I have a chronic illness that renders driving unsafe through fatigue, and I took a bus to our date, and it’s over. I work from home in a high-stress, relatively low-paying industry, over. My first marriage and divorce, over. Ask permission to touch, to kiss, to penetrate -it’s over. I have a tendency to freeze when faced with ambiguity, which is how I can confidently state that my actions were always consensual, one can have equal participation without words. Clarisse’s concerns are those of someone with privilege and I am tempted to say someone with no real interpersonal communication problems. The book was an excellent reminder of the problems of gender roles and how pick-up feeds some dysfunctions, but for some people it’s the only Game in town. I really feel that mere words cannot really be coercive, that the Dark Side of pick-up is an attempt to heal lack of agency with empty words, that as long as women are not forced to have sex, their bodily sovereignty and agency are preserved. I have done fairly well with pick-up, it almost cancels out my height and my visible and invisible disabilities, and it gave me an acceptable romantic life about 10 years after I started trying to date women and about 2 years after learning Game. I think Clarisse provides valuable tools for combating the isolation and ennui that results from Game, the lack of communication with one’s ostensible partners, the adversarial conception of relationships. But every night I end early rather than probe boundaries makes me feel like a loser.

  19. Dr. Anonymous? says:

    @marc202

    Are you marc from feministing, making fun of mens’ relationships with realdolls?

  20. marc2020 says:

    No certainly not

  21. Dr. anonymous says:

    Ok, sorry my misstake then.

  22. smhll says:

    Re: being worried that you will be considered creepy

    My husband, who is a truly nice, caring person, has shared with me that he was brought up to think nice girls would be offended by sexual come ons. Thus he hung back and waited and waited and waited and was friendly and waited and missed a lot of subtle indications of interest.(We partnered up because I came on to him.) I urge women to not be subtle, if possible. Tactful is good, but too much subtlety scuttles the enterprise. Now that I understand my husband’s POV on this issue when he was trying to date, I can hear other men repeating the painful sentiment that they are careful not to give offense and they believe that that has contributed to their romantic lives being very very quiet.

    When I first started playing Basketball in PE class in Jr. High, I tried to play without ever committing a foul. (I thought foul = you done bad, not realizing that fouls are going to happen if you play energetically or aggressively.) My parallel is that I believe it’s probably hard to extend a romantic or sexual offer to a woman, especially one you don’t know well, without occasionally committing a minor foul or messing up on a technicality. If you have to ask to know if there is consent, but even asking is considered offensive, then how do you ask? (Yes, delicate hinting and thoughtful assessment of body language might help, but it’s still quite a difficult situation.)

  23. Dan_Brodribb says:

    Your second paragraph is a nice take on it, smhll. Thanks

  24. Still angsty: Now, I’m disapointed to see any support for this kind of bollocks on this blog. To understand the gender dynamic is important, To submit and enforce it is supporting the oppression against all genders.

    Preach it! Yeah!

    I am not sure why this is so interesting to everybody here; I find it pretty repugnant. I hope this “game” fad passes soon.

    I have never met anyone in real life who talks about “PUA” or “game”, only on the internet. I think it might have totally by-passed the south, or is just for the young. (?) Maybe its not a working-class thing? The way all of you talk about it so much, makes me feel really weird and out-of-touch, as I guess I must be.

    Marc: So the sub culture with all its weird jargon and code words baffles me to a great extent the analogy I’ve found that best describes it is that it sounds like a military operation to take over a hostile nation rather than having a good time as I’ve said before on other blogs.

    Yeah, I’m with you.

    Then again, I have never responded to men who approach me. I am not the demographic they have in mind… assertive women seem to be invisible/nonexistent in their formulation… which is probably why I find it so gross.

    Ew. Seriously? So gross…

  25. L says:

    The way all of you talk about it so much, makes me feel really weird and out-of-touch, as I guess I must be.

    Makes ME glad that I missed out on all that dating shit thanks to my relative ace-ness outside of the context of an already-established, physical relationship. I really can’t wrap my head around how some people can get so obsessed with hook-ups and use that as their foremost benchmark for measuring their success as a human being.

  26. pocketjacks says:

    @the OP,

    She is also impressively well-liked. Seriously, that lady. I have no idea what magic she uses to make MRAs and radical feminists think she’s awesome, but she needs to loan me some. (Maybe she stole all of Hugo Schwyzer’s likeability?)

    Clarisse’s big strength… is her empathy.

    I believe you answered your own question. 🙂

    In other news, this book is a mere three dollars on Amazon. I just bought it for my Kindle Cloud reader. (And to Tapio, to repeat what everyone else has said, any computer can read Kindle, and Amazon has its own Kindle app if you set up an account.)

    @smhll,

    Your basketball analogy is very apt. Never getting fouls is a bad thing, especially for certain positions (i.e. forwards), because it shows you’re not playing aggressive enough for your team. This ethos exists even more in ice hockey, lacrosse, and other, more physical games. For a man, never getting rejected or rebuffed sexually means you’re being too passive.

  27. no more mr nice guy says:

    It’s normal to be skeptical about the PUA industry. Most guys who study PUAs technique cannot get laid because they have no social skills. This stuff can work only if you have social skills. It’s the reason why there are forums like Puahate full of angry guys who got scammed. Furthermore there’s so many crooks in the PUA industry that PUAs denounce each others and you have sites like Puafraud by Ross Jeffrey (the guy who created PUA techniques in the 1990s). There was a blog a few years ago by a guy who got scammed by Lovesystem because his instructor was not able to talk to women. How can a guy who cannot talk to women can teach seduction techniques ? And when another seduction guru, David DeAngelo, got married at 40, his new wife said he had only two girlfriends in his whole life. And there’s a video of Neil Strauss with his girlfriend and he said that he didn’t use PUA technique to seduce her. The only thing that work with PUA is basic dating advice, and you can find it in any dating site.

  28. dovahkintastic says:

    @pocketjacks
    “For a man, never getting rejected or rebuffed sexually means you’re being too passive.”

    Except getting a “foul” in this case, has the potential to actually have a negative impact on another person’s emotional well being. I could never play aggressively enough to get a foul in a game like Hockey, where a foul actually involves ‘causing harm (I think? I don’t watch much Hockey) – I just couldn’t stomach it. So while I actually really like the analogy, I think it falls apart a bit in the sense that some people just don’t have the personality/demeanor to *be* aggressive at a potential cost to someone else.

  29. Ginkgo says:

    “I have never met anyone in real life who talks about “PUA” or “game”, only on the internet. I think it might have totally by-passed the south, or is just for the young. ”

    DDH, did you happen to notice a cartoon called Johnny Bravo? It was about an Elvis-demographic blue-collar bubba who thought/acted like he was God’s gift to women. Now that I look back on it, it was all about Game and how silly it could look.

    “…just for the young.”

    Well, yeah, that too. Temporary affliction. Poor dears.

    Here’s the gender angle on this. I can’t think of any version or variant of Game that is current among gay men. Why do we not find any need for it?

  30. Suturexself says:

    “Why do we not find any need for it?”

    Because men aren’t socially punished for having too much sex, and don’t have to go through a routine of letting themselves be seduced.

  31. Thomas says:

    Wow, the book was surprisingly hard to read for me. I almost stopped after three quarters because it was actually getting me down. I used to work in the nightlife industry and Clarisse ‘s account reminded me of the worst aspects of that time, the shallowness, the vanity and essentially the emptiness.

    I used to think that PUA techniques could help shy, inexperienced men. To be fair some the advice seems useful but also very obvious to me. Other advice is just plain nonsense. And some seems to be downright counterproductive if your goal is a healthy, egalitarian relationship. It’s also interesting that one of the coaches admits that many of his clients want to deprogram themselves from the PUA shtick. This is great money making scheme. First you charge to turn your customers into PUAs and then you charge to turn them back.

    Bottom line, after reading the book I’m more anti PUA than ever. Again, some advice is useful but wading through all the shit to find some gems is not worth it. Especially, if you have very little experience to distinguish shit from gems. I think for men with serious social anxieties a therapeutic approach which is tailored to their needs is much more useful than the quackery PUAs offer.

  32. jesus_marley says:

    @Suturexself –
    http://www-psych.nmsu.edu/faculty/marks/pubs/Marks2006. pdf (remove the space before “pdf”)
    Interesting study regarding confirmation bias in our perceptions of a sexual double standard.

    http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/sers/2005/00000052/F0020003/00001293
    this one shows that while negative perceptions of subjects increase based upon increased sexual activity, the gender of the subject does not factor in.

    Feckblog (March 31, 2011) has a more in depth posting on the subject. I did not link as I wasn’t sure it would be appropo.

  33. Suturexself says:

    Thats interesting, Marley – what I would take from those studies is that, on an individual level, most people don’t hold the same double standards that they do once they have a chance to let their social filters apply. Still, though, isn’t the only criterion for a social double standard to exist is that enough people believe (and act as though) it exists?

  34. Gingko, no, but I did see Roger Dodger, recommended to me by a male feminist whose name you would all recognize.

    I found it disturbing. The description says “comic”–but its not. Not at all.

  35. jesus_marley says:

    @suturxself- “Still, though, isn’t the only criterion for a social double standard to exist is that enough people believe (and act as though) it exists?”

    I think this touches on aspects of perception versus reality. As the studies suggest, there is no double standard even though we as a society believe there is. It is much the same with spreading an urban legend about race. The idea fits into the greater cultures perceptions of “the other”, yet it is wildly inaccurate, overly simplistic, and serves to reinforce our own negative perceptions thus perpetuating the cycle.

    To put it another way, Saying that something is true because you believe it is, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, does not make it so. It’s the sexual equivalent of the Flat Earth Society.

  36. Danny says:

    L:
    I really can’t wrap my head around how some people can get so obsessed with hook-ups and use that as their foremost benchmark for measuring their success as a human being.
    I can. Its a matter of starting off with internalizing the idea that sex with women is a highly prioritized benchmark for measuring their success not just as a human but as a man. And then when you repeatedly fail that benchmark you look for ways, any ways possible, to make up for it. At that point you are susceptible to all sorts of things. Not too different from someone that is dying from some ailment that they have had no fortune in finding a treatment for being open to all sort of promises of cure alls, mystical treatments, and weird concoctions.

  37. Suturexself says:

    “To put it another way, Saying that something is true because you believe it is, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, does not make it so. It’s the sexual equivalent of the Flat Earth Society.”

    I think we’re talking past each other here a bit.

    Part of the reason sociology fascinates me so much is the interesting dynamic between the individual and society, or all the individuals and society. It’s easy to think of society as simply all the individuals involved, but it’s often something more and different.

    It’s possible for a social rule to exist, even if each and every individual in that society doesn’t personally subscribe to it, because all (or, at least, most) of those individuals will claim to subscribe to it and act as though they subscribe to it. Which reinforces to everyone else the notion that said rule is a truth. “Slut” is still a term used to shame women and not men, men still brag about how many sexual partners they’ve had, men are more likely to lie up and women are more likely to lie down – *even if* each of those individual men and women don’t personally think sex degrades women or lionizes men.

    So it’s a different thing to say “A social sexual double standard exists” and “Each individual person believes in the sexual double standard”.

  38. dungone says:

    @Suturexself, I’m really confused about what you’re trying to say. Are you suggesting that the slut/stud dichotomy exists because some people feel more discriminated against than members of the opposite sex, whose actual experiences they will never be able to share? I’m absolutely at a loss as to why you think this has something to do with an individual/social dichotomy. Do you understand what confirmation bias is? In a nutshell, it’s what you’re saying except that instead of proving that the sexual double standard is real, it fails to prove anything…

  39. jesus_marley says:

    @Suturexself – “Part of the reason sociology fascinates me so much is the interesting dynamic between the individual and society, or all the individuals and society. It’s easy to think of society as simply all the individuals involved, but it’s often something more and different.”

    You are basically saying society as a whole is an entity unto itself with it’s own rules yet still composed of it’s individual parts. I think that’s what you are saying.

    “It’s possible for a social rule to exist, even if each and every individual in that society doesn’t personally subscribe to it, because all (or, at least, most) of those individuals will claim to subscribe to it and act as though they subscribe to it. Which reinforces to everyone else the notion that said rule is a truth.”

    This type of thinking is what allowed the Jim Crow laws to flourish in the Southern States but in the end, those laws were struck down starting with Brown v. Board of Education because people recognized the truth that the social rule was wrong. The thing to remember though is that it didn’t happen on it’s own. It required people to stand up and make it known that what people believed to be true (the social rule that you speak of) was in fact not true.

    The same is to be said about the sexual double standard. That having identified that the social rule in question is damaging, in this case doubly so in that it shames sexually promiscuous women and men yet simultaneously elevates the denouncement of the womans shaming to a socially actionable level, do we not as individuals have a social responsibility to bring that to the attention of society as a whole and thus correct it?

    ” “Slut” is still a term used to shame women and not men”

    While the word “slut” may not be used for men, other words fill in just fine. Such as manwhore or just whore. Slut is also gaining popularity to describe any promiscuous person, not just women.

  40. jesus_marley says:

    DAMNIT! last line should read thusly…
    While the word “slut” may not be used AS OFTEN for men, other words fill in just fine. Such as manwhore or just whore. Slut is also gaining popularity to describe any promiscuous person, not just women.

  41. Suturexself says:

    “@Suturexself, I’m really confused about what you’re trying to say. Are you suggesting that the slut/stud dichotomy exists because some people feel more discriminated against than members of the opposite sex, whose actual experiences they will never be able to share? I’m absolutely at a loss as to why you think this has something to do with an individual/social dichotomy. Do you understand what confirmation bias is? In a nutshell, it’s what you’re saying except that instead of proving that the sexual double standard is real, it fails to prove anything…”

    I’m simply saying that the slut/stud double standard does exist, and that researching peoples *individual* perceptions is not a strong way of disproving that the social double standard exists.

    So, yes – if women feel like they’ll be judged for having too many sexual partners, and men feel like they’ll be judged for having too few (and these feelings dictate how they act), then the social double standard does exist, irrespective of individual opinion.

  42. Suturexself says:

    “The same is to be said about the sexual double standard. That having identified that the social rule in question is damaging, in this case doubly so in that it shames sexually promiscuous women and men yet simultaneously elevates the denouncement of the womans shaming to a socially actionable level, do we not as individuals have a social responsibility to bring that to the attention of society as a whole and thus correct it?”

    Absolutely. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that the slut/stud thing was valid or reasonable – quite the opposite.

  43. Hugh Ristik says:

    @L,

    really can’t wrap my head around how some people can get so obsessed with hook-ups and use that as their foremost benchmark for measuring their success as a human being.

    It’s a lot easier to get obsessed with an area of your life where you aren’t have success. As for why people (men particularly) use hook ups as a benchmark for measuring their success as a human, just look at virgin-shaming of men in our culture. Also, for someone who lacks sexual or romantic success, it can be really hard to watch all your friends happily dating.

  44. Hugh Ristik says:

    @Thomas,

    I used to think that PUA techniques could help shy, inexperienced men.

    PUA techniques can help certain types of shy, inexperienced men better than anything else. The only problem is that it can mess those men up in other ways.

    To be fair some the advice seems useful but also very obvious to me.

    There is a lot of useful advice in pickup for shy, inexperienced men which is non-obvious, and can’t be found in any other source (at least, not in a source that can communicate it to some types of shy, inexperienced, or nerdy men). That’s why it’s on the cutting edge and immensely popular.

    In social skills, a lot of things are obvious once you know them, but those things are non-obvious before someone explains it in a way that you can understand.

    It’s really hard for outsiders to understand from reading The Game by Neil Strauss or Confessions why so many men find the seduction community especially helpful for learning social skills as applied to dating. That’s because those books are about a personal experience in the community and a discussion of the most controversial practices. A compendium of helpful social advice in pickup would be a completely different book.

    To understand why some of the teachings of the community are helpful for certain types of guys to learn social skills, you have to be that sort of guy (or understand the issues they face really, really well). That’s why it would be mostly useless for me to try to explain what pieces of advice from the community are so useful. I could make a simple list, but unless the readers have shared experiences with the sort of guy the advice is aimed at, they will not be able to understand why the advice is useful. I would have to add onto the list hundreds of hours of men’s stories.

    Also, to understand the useful of pickup advice, you would not only have to be the sort of guy it’s aimed at, but you have to be exposed to a lot of it before you start putting the helpful stuff together. Of course, I don’t necessarily recommend that you or anyone else exposes themselves indiscriminately to pickup teachings even for educational purposes, because of the high signal-to-noise ratio.

    Other advice is just plain nonsense. And some seems to be downright counterproductive if your goal is a healthy, egalitarian relationship.

    Yup.

    It’s also interesting that one of the coaches admits that many of his clients want to deprogram themselves from the PUA shtick. This is great money making scheme. First you charge to turn your customers into PUAs and then you charge to turn them back.

    Well, I would hope that if a coach understands the need for “de-programming,” then he would be teaching a healthier form of pickup in the first place. It’s usually healthier PUAs (or schools of pickup) who end up de-programming men who have been exposed to less healthy schools of thought.

    Again, some advice is useful but wading through all the shit to find some gems is not worth it.

    For some of us, it was worth it. For others, it won’t be.

    I think for men with serious social anxieties a therapeutic approach which is tailored to their needs is much more useful than the quackery PUAs offer.

    Yes, for severe social anxiety, a therapist is probably best, and pickup could actually be damaging. A therapeutic approach could take someone from severe social anxiety to basic social skills.

    Teaching him to cope with his social anxiety might be enough to help him be more successful with women. Maybe. But there is a good chance that therapy will simply change an anxious guy who doesn’t know what to say to women into a slightly less-anxious guy who doesn’t know what to say to women.

    Think of it this way: if you are trying to be a musician or an actor, a therapist can help you deal with stage fright… but a therapist cannot teach you how to actually perform now that your stage fright is reduced.

    Consequently, therapists are not any more qualified to teach dating skills than PUA coaches. A therapist has more schooling, but most of that is textbooks to help people with mental issues, and it has limited applicability to teaching dating skills. Some therapists are qualified for social skills training, but they are rarer. A therapist who labels themselves a dating coach is more respectable than a pickup coach, but neither therapy nor psychology have any proven dating skills programs, so their expertise will be mainly self-proclaimed or based on the success of past clients (just like PUAs!).

    In contrast, a PUA coach is less qualified to help people with severe emotional issues or anxiety, not qualified at all to teach relationship skills, but more qualified to teach basic dating skills to certain types of shy, inexperienced, or nerdy men.

    Therapists and PUA coaches can both help different sorts of shy men in different ways, at different stages of social development. Yet therapists are viewed as much more respectable, even though both therapy and pickup coaching are costly, there are quacks in both fields, and practitioners who harm the emotional health of their clients.

  45. Dr. Anonymous says:

    @L

    I am certain that if you ask Carlos Slim he will tell you that there is more to life than money. Ask a homeless person and you will get a much different version.

  46. Jonathan says:

    Thanks for the heads up. On the subject of PUAs I have to say I enjoyed Neil Strauss’ book “The Game” very much — it’s hugely entertaining, even if the only person who comes out of it looking at all good is Courtney Love. Very interested to read Clarisse’s take on it all anyway 🙂

  47. dungone says:

    I’m simply saying that the slut/stud double standard does exist, and that researching peoples *individual* perceptions is not a strong way of disproving that the social double standard exists.

    I’m not sure what kind of standard of proof that is. But it sounds like a great way to try to prove that UFO abductions and Bigfoot are real, too.

    Something that is social has to be seen in many individuals. If you can’t see a difference among many individuals, then what else is there? It’s really easy to prove that something like racism exists in spite of individual people saying they are not racists, for example. This is the complete opposite of that. You have individual people who say that the double standards exist, but when you test for that double standard, it’s just not there.

  48. Can’t keep it in any longer, MUST ASK:

    When certain women approach you guys, say, a fat or “heavy” girl, how do you respond? Do you laugh at her or engage her in conversation? Whenever an ‘unattractive’ girl (whatever this means, to you) has come on to you, how have you reacted to this? I assume you enjoy it when the ‘attractive’ women do.

    Back in the day, I was probably “refused” as many times as guys here have been, even by men who initially seemed interested. (In fairness, also hit jackpot enough to feel okay approaching.) But I noticed that men who did refuse, seemed particularly bothered by the FACT of me approaching, of it being MY idea. Several even informed me (last time was the 80s, so this was long ago, but it DID happen) that THEY were supposed to be the ones asking ME, and (insert contemptuous facial expression here) didn’t I know that? Cue for me to say, “No, I didn’t. Really?” and just get up and walk away.

    I just wondered how many guys here who like “game”–would react as they did. Doesn’t “game” teach you that YOU should be in charge of the encounter? Does it ever cover the women (like me) who do not like to be approached AT ALL and prefer to do the approaching? Or do we not exist in “game”?

    It seems to me, rather than forcing introverted, shy men to go out there and act totally contrary to their personalities, we should be encouraging women who WANT to approach men (extroverted women) that they should, and then (pay attention, fellas) REWARDING us when we do. I’d rather see a “game” like that.

    Ever heard that wonderful song “He’s so shy”? 🙂 Some of us LIKE shy men. The problem is, when you approach them, they don’t even seem to know what you’re doing. You practically have to hit them over the head with it. Then, if you finally ask, “want to eat pizza at my house?” or whatever you have decided to say, they seem startled and look at you like you must be some kind of serial killer. My young friend tells me little has changed, and she is tired of shy men who 1) tell her she’s too tall for them (she is very tall, likes shorter men) and 2) get the scared-bunny look when two seconds previous, they were madly flirting with her. But let HER take charge of the encounter and … suddenly, all bets are off.

    Women need this game business far more than men do

  49. AnonymousDog says:

    Daisy,

    Why does it seem to surprise you that women who approach men get rejected sometimes? Is it not likely that an initiator, whether male or female, will have about the same rate of success?

    You admit to disliking being approached, is it so unreasonable that some men also dislike being approached?

    I get the impression in a lot of these web discussions that women who want to approach men think that they should be successful every time, or nearly every time, they approach. Do you really buy into the idea that it really is easier for a woman to approach?

  50. rockjianrock says:

    No access for those outside the States. 😥

  51. jesus_marley says:

    @Daisy – “When certain women approach you guys, say, a fat or “heavy” girl, how do you respond? Do you laugh at her or engage her in conversation? Whenever an ‘unattractive’ girl (whatever this means, to you) has come on to you, how have you reacted to this? I assume you enjoy it when the ‘attractive’ women do.”

    You certainly enjoy asking loaded questions don’t you? I’ve never had issue with “heavy” girls. It was really never a factor with me since I value intelligence and creativity much higher than physicality. When I was single, when I was approached by a girl that I considered unattractive, I would be polite, engage in conversation generally since this was the primary method for determining my attraction, and then excuse myself if she did not meet with my criteria. My view was that it was better to show everyone some basic respect even if I didn’t see them as a potential partner. But then the more I discuss things like this, I am learning I am not exactly the poster child for typical maleness, well, at least in terms of attitude.

  52. Jonathan says:

    @rockjianrock Try your local Amazon. I got it on Amazon UK.

  53. Dovahkintastic says:

    @Daisy

    As a “shy, inexperienced guy” I would love a dating script that let me be myself… but I think you are overestimating how effective the passive role is when played by a guy. Far more common than a woman taking the initiative is a woman starting a conversation with a shy/inexperienced guy, and then waiting for him to take the initiative – and neither of those situations are that common compared to the alternate scenarios. Even your own example, of Women who liked those sorts of guys, you mentioned “you have to hit them over the head with it” – but it isn’t some sort of huge stretch to be the one to make the move. Asking them out or being the one to ask for their number is the natural outcome of taking the assertive role. Indeed, for many of those guys, starting a conversation is the easiest part of the interaction – expressing romantic or sexual interest is the hard part – so it isn’t meeting them halfway unless you make that move yourself or drop hints that have the subtlety of an atomic bomb, so they’ll be comfortable with that step.

    While I would love it if the dating scripts could be flipped more often, even when some Women are trying to be assertive, many still implicitly expect the guy to take on the Active role before the conversation is done.

  54. dungone says:

    When certain women approach you guys, say, a fat or “heavy” girl, how do you respond?

    Sarcasm: well, I guess I’d ask her up to my place to help me move some boxes around in the basement and then tell all my friends about this creepy girl who thought she could have sex with me. And if anyone dare question my sexual preferences, I’d tell them that I obviously need a smart, funny, and intelligent woman who knows how to treat a man right, which the fat or “heavy” girl obviously did not, otherwise why would I have ever rejected her?

    Whenever an ‘unattractive’ girl (whatever this means, to you) has come on to you, how have you reacted to this? I assume you enjoy it when the ‘attractive’ women do.

    If 10 unattractive girls came up to me for every 1 who I was actually attracted to, I would reject 10 of the unattractive ones but it would still probably save me from getting rejected 20 times myself. Overall, if men and women approached each other equally, I feel that there would be fewer overall rejections. So I don’t really feel “guilty” over the idea of asking women to do a better job engaging men even if it means that I will have to reject a few of the ones who do try.

    One thing that women have to grow beyond is the stereotype of men as being sex-craved maniacs who would do anyone, anywhere, anytime. That attitude not only seems to confuse the hell out of them when they do get rejected, but it keeps them from making the approach in the first place. The fact of the matter is a healthy expectation of being rejected is necessary in order for an acceptance to actually mean something. The proof of the pudding is that men do reject women. Not what you’d expect given the “men just want sex” stereotypes.

    But I noticed that men who did refuse, seemed particularly bothered by the FACT of me approaching, of it being MY idea.

    Do you remember men refusing you for any other reason besides that? Because there’s a very good chance that these men were just hiding behind the prevalent social scripts of the time. Women do this all the time as well when rejecting a guy. The “girl’s night out” excuse is but one of the many lies that women tell guys to get them out of their hair. Chances are that if more women actually bothered to ask men out more often, you would have spotted another woman approaching one of those guys after you and being accepted.

    I’m not saying it’s right, no more than it’s right of women when they use social scripts to lie about why they’re rejecting a guy. What I’m saying is that you shouldn’t expect anything different.

    And if this is anywhere near the “main” reason why women don’t approach men, then has feminism failed. Why would women listen to some sexist men about what they can and can’t do?

  55. @Daisy:

    When certain women approach you guys, say, a fat or “heavy” girl, how do you respond? Do you laugh at her or engage her in conversation? Whenever an ‘unattractive’ girl (whatever this means, to you) has come on to you, how have you reacted to this? I assume you enjoy it when the ‘attractive’ women do.

    I’m probably a terrible choice for this one, as every time in my life to date that a woman has done something that could even theoretically be viewed as an approach if taken in the most positve light possible, there’s always been a serious problem, like her being very underage, or it being sexual assault (if we’ve exchanged less than a dozen words ever and we’ve known each other less than two days, waking me up with a surprise BJ is *not* appropriate), or the like.

    If one were to do so right now, I’d probably give her at least one date just to encourage the behavior. If we’re talking about one where that is for whatever reason not an option, I’d reject her in the fashion I’d prefer to be rejected — something direct and honest without being deliberately hurtful, say “Sorry, but I’m not interested.”

    We had a thread where a discussion started about men being rejected on here a while back, with several male posters more or less agreeing on what they’d prefer while several female posters told them it wasn’t that simple. I’d like to propose a simple test for rejections. Imagine it being used on you. Now, imagine it being used on you over and over again. How many times does it take before it makes the crossover to “patronizing”? The higher that number is, the better.

    It seems to me, rather than forcing introverted, shy men to go out there and act totally contrary to their personalities, we should be encouraging women who WANT to approach men (extroverted women) that they should, and then (pay attention, fellas) REWARDING us when we do. I’d rather see a “game” like that.

    I’ll tell you what, any woman who approaches me while I am single, is of legal age and doesn’t do so in a fashion that is sexual assault I will say yes to. Regardless of any other factors, the fact that she approached me is enough to at least be worth a single date. I don’t honestly expect that to disrupt my schedule any time soon though.

    The problem is, when you approach them, they don’t even seem to know what you’re doing. You practically have to hit them over the head with it.

    I would not be in the slightest surprised if the set of shy men and the set of men that have trouble reading social cues have a *lot* of overlap. Although if you are talking about women approaching, why is there any need to do anything other than “hit them over the head with it” in the same fashion that women expect men to “hit them over the head with it” (as in, actually ask them out).

    @Dovahkintastic: Yeah, essentially.

  56. AnonymousDog: Why does it seem to surprise you that women who approach men get rejected sometimes?

    I am not surprised. Did I say I was surprised? (((reads post back, fails to find expression of surprise)))

    I was establishing my bona fides, that I have been through it too, so I don’t hear Dungone sing his favorite song: “yoooou don’t know what its like!”–which he sings to the ladies all too often. Pre-empting the greatest hits, is what I am doing.

    Is it not likely that an initiator, whether male or female, will have about the same rate of success?

    I would suppose so. I am specifically talking now about the shy, introverted men/assertive, extroverted women dynamic. I supposed we could use the bottom/top shorthand, but I don’t necessarily want people to think I am talking about kink. I just refer to our natural personalities, which do not always conform to gender categories, a topic I thought this blog addressed frequently? As it is right now, we don’t have many women (even loud, rowdy girls) doing as much approaching as they should, don’t you agree? I would like to encourage this. Even Clarence said some good things about this on Feminist Critics, that I liked and agreed with. (shock)

    You admit to disliking being approached, is it so unreasonable that some men also dislike being approached?

    Well, that’s interesting–are you saying a SHY, introverted man would not like to be approached? Hm, really? If its like that, I agree they have a serious personality problem. But the shy men *I* have known, often are pleased and express relief.

    I get the impression in a lot of these web discussions that women who want to approach men think that they should be successful every time, or nearly every time, they approach. Do you really buy into the idea that it really is easier for a woman to approach?

    No, I believe I specifically said women need to be encouraged to do this. (Am I writing in Greek, or what?)

    As for me, I was never hesitant or afraid, just maybe a little nervous. In my youth, I walked right up to LENNY KAYE!!! Walked. Right. Up. To. Lenny. Kaye. Wasn’t scared, too exuberant, could not restrain myself. Drunk or sober. This is when I was young–my last marriage was at age 30 and I have been married ever since, 24 yrs.

    If I had to do it now? Probably still could, but I would be far more particular, since I would be looking for different attributes than I used to. Also, older men are just mellower and have a million interesting things to chat about. I think it would be more pleasant and less edgy than it is for the youth, and probably lots easier for women.

  57. L says:

    @Danny, Anonymous, Hugh:

    Just occurred to me: is there really that many men out there pursuing sex that they don’t necessarily want? You know, on a biological, hormonal, mental, and emotional level. Girls get virgin-shamed a ton too (but in a different way), but even barring that I had zero interest in actively pursuing sexual relationships, so I didn’t. I can’t imagine being so obsessed with getting sex that it doesn’t matter if I even want the sex or not, the important thing is that it happens. People actually do this? Regularly? I could see this being a thing where someone who doesn’t actually have an insatiable sex drive might attempt once or twice, get a one-night stand, and then go “yeah, that wasn’t all it was cracked up to be” and then tone it down.

    I dunno. Maybe I have a bizarre sample group, but out of all of my friends, and all of my family that I’ve ever had (and I’ve got dozens of cousins, none of this one uncle and one grandpa extended family shit), I’ve never encountered this. Like, ever. I know TONS of virgin guys, none of whom feel like they owe it to anybody to frantically start dating because they’ve got to prove their manliness.

    Yes, that’s ignoring the guys that actually DO enjoy casual sex and pursue it because they like it; I’m talking about the guys that are going after something they don’t even want. And then as far as the guys that do like casual sex all the time… well, I can’t understand having a strong enough need for sex that it becomes a driving force in my life and dictates all my social interactions.

  58. Dungone, if you don’t mind, skipping over the snark.

    Overall, if men and women approached each other equally, I feel that there would be fewer overall rejections.

    Good idea! I agree with this sentiment.

    Oh yeah, some of them were weird, but I wasn’t too bothered. As stated before, I was hearty and plucky alright! I enjoyed it. So that is why I can’t get too upset with men who enjoy it. Just like sports and scifi and guitars and science: I want more girls to learn it can be fun and enjoy themselves TOO. It is my opinion that the extroverted girls HOLD THEMSELVES BACK and most would have little trouble doing the approaching, IF they thought it wouldn’t get them called “slut” and so forth. I was also warned that men would have no respect for you, if you ask men, then they have the right to rape you (yes, that’s what they tell us, although you joke about it, the terrorizing of young women starts early and its no joke). So, we were duly advised. THAT is why I mentioned fat girls, because in light of this training, you start to think, “Can I take that guy in a fight?” LOL–seriously. (I remember backing off of big guys, just in case the advice turned out to be true.) A fat girl might believe she is physically the equal of a smaller, skinny guy, and likely is. (Hauling fat makes muscles stronger, if you didn’t know.) I think bigger girls might be braver for this simple reason.

    Do you remember men refusing you for any other reason besides that?

    Some of the reasons I got:

    Not Jewish.

    Not the right hair color.

    Too big/overweight.

    Broad shoulders, “are you a man?”

    “You look like you’re 12”–unfortunately, I even got this from my mother in law at age 30, so I think looking young actually might have hurt my chances.

    In California, they ask where you are from, and I used to change the answer around. Midwest gets more nos, the south more yesses.

    In political settings, they will grill you about your politics, and of course, you can hit the wrong note fairly easily and quickly. “I don’t date girls who like Gramsci” is one such reply I got.

    But yes I do see what you mean about the scripts.

    I think many women are afraid to approach, for the same reasons shy men are–they find it terrifying, all out of proportion to the situation. “It can’t hurt”–is something I live by, in many respects, not just this one… and I really don’t know why women wait to be approached, won’t call men on the phone and then whine that there are no men anywhere. I get sick of listening to it, and I have been known to grab their phone, hand it to them, and order them to call a man, any man. When they don’t–I have said, “then it’s your decision, not theirs”–I have gotten really adamant about it. One girl I worked with, nearly made me tear my hair out with her refusal to call a man and checking her goddamn phone 80 times a day to see if HE had called. I once said, “goodnight–off to my husband, whom I called a THREE TIMES before he ever called me!” 🙂 Pissed her off, but the truth hurts.

  59. L says:

    I think many women are afraid to approach, for the same reasons shy men are–they find it terrifying, all out of proportion to the situation. “It can’t hurt”–is something I live by, in many respects, not just this one… and I really don’t know why women wait to be approached, won’t call men on the phone and then whine that there are no men anywhere. I get sick of listening to it, and I have been known to grab their phone, hand it to them, and order them to call a man, any man. When they don’t–I have said, “then it’s your decision, not theirs”–I have gotten really adamant about it. One girl I worked with, nearly made me tear my hair out with her refusal to call a man and checking her goddamn phone 80 times a day to see if HE had called. I once said, “goodnight–off to my husband, whom I called a THREE TIMES before he ever called me!” 🙂 Pissed her off, but the truth hurts.

    Please give my mother dating advice, she might listen to you because you’re older. Everyone else is telling her the typical Cosmo eyelash-flutter-morse-code type of shit and it’s pissing me off.

  60. Dovah: While I would love it if the dating scripts could be flipped more often, even when some Women are trying to be assertive, many still implicitly expect the guy to take on the Active role before the conversation is done.

    True enough… I just hope you all a realize that “do you want to critique my manuscript?” is often code, especially late at night, if the manuscript is in someone’s bedroom. Hello! Wake up, yall!

    My remark about “hit them over the head with it”: Example, I once got a guy up to my place to listen to my Deadhead bootlegs and what did he do? Listen to the bootlegs. He did not seem to realize it was an invitation TO MY APARTMENT, LATE AT NIGHT, DUH! I now realize what Aspergers is (not understood in the 80s), and that a lot of the shy men I have known probably had this, and take things *very literally*.

    The only thing that breaks that kind of spell is to get very brazen, take off clothes or start rubbing his back, etc. And after a woman has gotten you INTO HER BEDROOM and you are still engrossed in the jams? Seems to me, at some point, you should notice there is a GIRL in the room! LOL

  61. Schadrach: If one were to do so right now, I’d probably give her at least one date just to encourage the behavior.

    Good for you!

    I would not be in the slightest surprised if the set of shy men and the set of men that have trouble reading social cues have a *lot* of overlap.

    I cross posted my above comment about the Aspergers, but I agree wholeheartedly.

  62. L; Everyone else is telling her the typical Cosmo eyelash-flutter-morse-code type of shit and it’s pissing me off.

    Ohhh how awful. Older men don’t often do Morse Code anymore, they cut right to the chase: “You married?” LOL–I just love them! No games at ALL–I think its due to a lifetime of putting up w/bullshit. Its like they got to a certain age and just said, the hell with it.

    Remember, I grew up with girls who were *never allowed to call boys*, it was regarded as DIRTY to do that. Really. Your mother likely came from this school, or was heavily influenced by it. I remember one time we all had this group-project to do, and one of my friends was not even allowed to call a boy about the damn group-project, rules are rules. (Result: Someone else had to take over and got the extra credit as team leader… think about THAT awhile.)

    My mother was like me, and of course… she was like me. 🙂 I am very grateful… I remember she gave me the advice that they might dislike you for being pushy, watch out, etc.. but she never told me not to. I heard HER call men all the time, and she was married 4 times; I figured out that if you wanted boyz, that was the way to get em–JUST GO GET THEM. (LOL) She would tell me about some man, next thing you know, there he was in my living room. She was like an armed torpedo!

  63. L: Girls get virgin-shamed a ton too (but in a different way)

    Yeah, there was a whole movie about this, called “Little Darlings” (1980)–Kristy MacNicol and Tatum O’Neal. Cynthia Nixon is in it, also, still a teenager then. Watch her break up their fight below, with Vitamin E and Niacin!

    To the girls–MAY TRIGGER! HAHAHA! (seriously, all that teenage-girl psywar will bring back some memories!)

    Things have not changed much, except the clothes. (And now we know that Kristy MacNicol really is gay, so you wince when the Mean Girl calls her “lezzie”–the insult of choice when I was growing up.) I have always loved the little blonde girl who says “my brains is gonna disintegrate”–I looked a great deal like that when I was young too.

    Aside: you can hear the distinctive riffs from Supertramp’s SCHOOL at 6:42, which I never noticed before.

  64. S says:

    Have you/ would you make a fat friend take the Dating Market Value Test? Considering that Roissy makes it clear early on that in his vision of the dating market, if you are fat, you are worthless? Because… I kinda hope you wouldn’t.

  65. daelyte says:

    Ok, delurking. Hi everyone!

    “I just wondered how many guys here who like “game”–would react as they did. Doesn’t “game” teach you that YOU should be in charge of the encounter? Does it ever cover the women (like me) who do not like to be approached AT ALL and prefer to do the approaching? Or do we not exist in “game”?”

    Why is it nobody on this site seems to have head of FPUAs – female pickup artists?

    http://www.pualingo.com/pua-definitions/female-pick-up-artist-fpua/

    Incidentally, I find that PUA communities that welcome FPUAs tend to display a lot less misogyny overall.

    “In California, they ask where you are from, and I used to change the answer around. Midwest gets more nos, the south more yesses.”

    That sounds like exactly the sort of experiment an FPUA would try.

    “I would not be in the slightest surprised if the set of shy men and the set of men that have trouble reading social cues have a *lot* of overlap.”

    There is massive overlap. The majority of men with aspergers also suffer from social anxiety. However, many shy men who think they have AS clearly do not, while some others like myself have difficulty with social cues and yet are not shy. I suspect that social anxiety is often acquired as a result of persistent bullying and ostracization in in the K12 years which is nearly universal for aspies.

    “Roissy’s Dating Market Value Test. (I’m lesser beta as a guy, greater beta as a girl.)”

    Me too! And I’m a guy. I’ve seen definitions of alpha/beta that differ greatly from his, in fact Roissy’s ideal “alpha” would probably fall into the “sigma” mold in this system.

    alpha – leader of the pack, the one everyone turns to in a crisis, often has a “harem”.
    beta – family man/woman, stable and reliable provider/homemaker, marriage material.
    sigma – lone wolf, desirable but unreliable, good for a ONS but not LTR.
    omega – bottom of the pecking order, hardly anyone wants them. (short, fat, disabled, etc)

    Some also further subdivide beta into beta-gamma-delta to differenciate between highly successful betas, middle-of-the-pack and the ones that barely make it out of omega.

    Note that unlike Roissy’s views, this is about personality, not looks. Some people have below-average looks but so much… presence, that even some people who aren’t normally attracted to their gender have a (platonic?) crush on them.

    Note that the same classifications can apply to women (including the alpha harem!). I suspect feminism attracts a lot of alpha females.

    Alpha/Alpha couples are rare, because neither wants to give up control, and aren’t used to the sort of compromise it would require. I would guess Brad and Angelina are both alphas, as are the Clintons. More often, an alpha female will eventually settle down with a male of her choosing, probably a high beta (very good provider).

    Maybe I should make an alpha/beta/sigma/omega test for this… anybody wanna contribute?

  66. dungone says:

    I think many women are afraid to approach, for the same reasons shy men are–they find it terrifying, all out of proportion to the situation.

    If girls were merely terrified of getting rejected then I would expect the most beautiful, least likely to be rejected girls to approach more. But I suspect that the opposite is true. As a matter of fact, I’m pretty sure a guy is more likely to get approached by a homely girl who doesn’t get hit on a lot, whether or not she’s extroverted or shy.

    I think it goes a little deeper than that. I think there is a self-reinforcing mechanism at work. The more women are approached without approaching, the less likely they are to ever approach. I have come across many women who consider approaching as a form of supplication that is beneath them. You could think of it a sort of entitlement, although i don’t want to call it that outright. I think that when you look around a room and expect the opposite sex to approach you, it automatically makes you start filtering people out for their bad qualities instead of filtering people in for their good qualities. So when you expect to be approached, that mere fact alone makes you less likely to find someone worthy of approaching yourself as well as just the pure laziness of it. When you are forced to make an approach, even if you only get a choice of exactly one person to approach, you are more likely to identify the likable qualities about that person because the act of approaching someone is an act of trying to like them.

    I have been thinking about this ever since I saw those OkCupid studies that showed the way women’s ratings of men are so hopelessly skewed towards the top. Remember those? And since then I came up with an answer that satisfies me: it’s because they expect men to approach them and they look for negatives – reasons to reject each guy.

    Which goes back to what I said earlier – that if men and women approached each other equally, there would be a lot less rejection to go around.

  67. daelyte says:

    dungone – “I think that when you look around a room and expect the opposite sex to approach you, it automatically makes you start filtering people out for their bad qualities instead of filtering people in for their good qualities.”

    I saw something about this:

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=changing-the-dating-game

    “When women approach men instead of vice versa, the gender difference in selectivity disappears”

  68. no more mr nice guy says:

    @dungone:
    If girls were merely terrified of getting rejected then I would expect the most beautiful, least likely to be rejected girls to approach more. But I suspect that the opposite is true. As a matter of fact, I’m pretty sure a guy is more likely to get approached by a homely girl who doesn’t get hit on a lot, whether or not she’s extroverted or shy.

    I’ve known women who are extremely attractive and they always approach men and don’t like to be approached. If a woman is extremely attractive it greatly reduce her change of being rejected when she approach a man.

  69. no more mr nice guy says:

    Example, I once got a guy up to my place to listen to my Deadhead bootlegs and what did he do? Listen to the bootlegs. He did not seem to realize it was an invitation TO MY APARTMENT, LATE AT NIGHT, DUH! I now realize what Aspergers is (not understood in the 80s), and that a lot of the shy men I have known probably had this, and take things *very literally*.

    I’ve seen lots of guys like that in shyness forums. Either they cannot read social signals or they are terrified of being rejected or both. In my case it’s both. I need someone to do everything. 😦 It’s a problem because usually when a woman approach, she doesn’t expect she will have to do everything and think the guy will understand her signals.

  70. Dovahkintastic says:

    @Daisy Deadhead

    Even if I realize cognitively that “can you critique my manuscript” or an invitation to someones room is code (and I’ve heard plenty of stories from guys who missed similar opportunities), that is still very diffefrent than actually physically escalating. Its like hearing a word spoken in a language youve never heard before – you’ve seen it written down, maybe, but the words for “I’m genuinely only interested in listening to records” is only a little different, and misinterpreting it potentially means making someone you care about really uncomfortable.

    I wouldn’t tie that sort of lack of escalation to Aspergers at all – the issue is that in order to jump to physical interaction, you need either a sufficiently positive viewpoint towards whether a woman will be interested in you, or a framework of experience saying “in the past, ‘come up to my room’ meant she wanted me” – neither of which are readily available without experience. The workarounds are explicit communication or the Woman doing the physical escalating, but neither are particularly common scenarios. I fully agree with you that it would be great if Women initiate more – but from the point of view of a shy/inexperienced guy, the scenarios you’re describing (other than the massage/etc stuff) are still wrapped in the “Woman hints, Man initiates/escalates physically” script – and its that escalation that gets exponentially more challenging the more inexperienced one is.

    That’s the gap that I think drives some guys towards PUA stuff, because it isn’t readily filled without either experience or being fortunate enough to run into a Woman who likes you and is okay with *completely* flipping the script, which is really rare.

  71. no more mr nice guy says:

    @Dovahkintastic :
    the issue is that in order to jump to physical interaction, you need either a sufficiently positive viewpoint towards whether a woman will be interested in you, or a framework of experience saying “in the past, ‘come up to my room’ meant she wanted me”

    You don’t need to learn PUA technique to know that, you can learn it in any dating site or dating forum.

    @daelyte :
    “When women approach men instead of vice versa, the gender difference in selectivity disappears”

    I live in Quebec and there was a book published a few years ago saying that now it’s women who approach men here.

  72. daelyte says:

    Daisy Deadhead – “When certain women approach you guys, say, a fat or “heavy” girl, how do you respond? Do you laugh at her or engage her in conversation? Whenever an ‘unattractive’ girl (whatever this means, to you) has come on to you, how have you reacted to this? I assume you enjoy it when the ‘attractive’ women do.”

    The only women that commented on my appearance in a way that might be construed as “coming on to me”, were so wildly inappropriate (married older women) that I assumed they were just making conversation.

    If someone (male or female!) who I really didn’t want to date tried to ask me out in a clear and unambigous way (else I wouldn’t notice), I’d first give them the scared-bunny look because I’d be so surprised. Then I’d thank them for asking, tell them I’m not interested, and wish them luck. Maybe offer to give them some pointers and/or feedback if they want it.

    Daisy Deadhead – “I just wondered how many guys here who like “game”–would react as they did. Doesn’t “game” teach you that YOU should be in charge of the encounter? Does it ever cover the women (like me) who do not like to be approached AT ALL and prefer to do the approaching? Or do we not exist in “game”?”

    http://www.pualingo.com/pua-definitions/female-pick-up-artist-fpua/

    Turns out this stuff mostly works on men too, with some variation when it comes to clothing, etc.

  73. Dovah: “Woman hints, Man initiates/escalates physically” script

    Yeah, that’s why I said, suddenly stripping seems to do the trick, although you take the risk he won’t like what he sees! OR he will get this cute goofy smile on his face, like, “oh I get it now”–which is just very sweet, and what all girls who like shy boys, just live for. 🙂 Sometimes they will even SAY “Oh I get it now”–LOL. (I guess I made it easier for the next girl with the Deadhead bootlegs or manuscript!)

    The thing is, as I said, women are taught to be afraid. When you let a man in your bedroom after a lifetime of LOOKING FOR MR GOODBAR, you have trusted him, he has passed an important test; you HAVE escalated in a big way. But yes, I see that men without that background, would not necessarily realize that.

    That’s why we must EDUCATE each other about our upbringings or we continue to misread each other badly.

  74. daelyte says:

    @no more mr nice guy:
    “I live in Quebec and there was a book published a few years ago saying that now it’s women who approach men here.”

    I haven’t been there for over a decade, but I’ve heard that the misandry in Quebec is so deep now you can swim in it, and that the laws concerning child support and so on reflect that. As a result, a lot of men don’t want to get into relationships, mostly preferring to stay home and play video games.The marriage rate and birth rate have dropped precipitously, and some women are getting desperate.

    All that misandry doesn’t actually reduce misogyny either, so everyone is pretty miserable with the situation. So sad.

  75. daelyte says:

    @Daisy Deadhead:
    “I just wondered how many guys here who like “game”–would react as they did. Doesn’t “game” teach you that YOU should be in charge of the encounter? Does it ever cover the women (like me) who do not like to be approached AT ALL and prefer to do the approaching? Or do we not exist in “game”?”

    I think the one approaching is expected to be in charge of the encounter, it just happens that’s usually the man, but doesn’t have to be so.

    You might want to look up FPUA or “female pickup artists”. Turns out this stuff helps when approaching men too, as well as for same-sex relationships.

  76. Infra says:

    (If no one minds my commenting on this, just dropping in — I followed the link here from Clarisse’s.)

    @Daisy Deadhead:

    “When certain women approach you guys, say, a fat or ‘heavy’ girl, how do you respond? Do you laugh at her or engage her in conversation? Whenever an ‘unattractive’ girl (whatever this means, to you) has come on to you, how have you reacted to this? I assume you enjoy it when the ‘attractive’ women do.”

    You’d be wrong on that last assumption; it varies in both cases, though I’ll admit that I tend to be uneasy with women of certain builds, due to the fact that there can be complications WRT later intimacy, if that occurs. (Triggering and such.) In the end, though, it all comes down to the how of the approach. Some people do it in a way that makes me comfortable, some people don’t, and some do it in a way that makes my hackles spike. Rarely, if ever, has anything directly to do with appearance.

    It’s kind of like what you mentioned about the invitation to listen to the bootlegs. I’ve been in a similar situation, and I just listened to the music. But not because I didn’t get the message. It was because the way that things were going down, I was interested… but not yet comfortable. And even though I kept trying to send that message — without sending one of “you made the wrong choice by trying to come on to me, instead of having me do the work” — I just kept getting the message from her of “what’s the matter with you? why aren’t you getting it yet?” Which just made things even more uncomfortable. It was a situation where having a personal boundary was read as being socially inept, and it wasn’t the only one of the kind that I’ve experienced. (One side-effect of that was that I became known, in that circle, as a guy who needed to be “given clear signals” in the way that you described. Which eventually contributed to some significantly negative experiences.)

    Similarly, I’ve experienced approaches where they’d been working enough to pique interest and attraction, but then she stopped unexpectedly, evidently thinking that she wasn’t getting anywhere, even though she was (apparently expecting that I’d respond more quickly than I did). And approaches where things were going smoothly, but then hit a bump because she crossed a boundary too quickly, and then read that as my not being able to handle an approach, and not as a mistake in pacing.

    Point being: it’s possible to read these things as high-level gender issues, and it’s possible that in a varying percentage of cases, they are. But in others, they might be far more subtle things.

  77. no more mr nice guy says:

    I haven’t been there for over a decade, but I’ve heard that the misandry in Quebec is so deep now you can swim in it, and that the laws concerning child support and so on reflect that. As a result, a lot of men don’t want to get into relationships, mostly preferring to stay home and play video games.The marriage rate and birth rate have dropped precipitously, and some women are getting desperate.

    It’s true we have an insane law about alimony, and what’s worst, there are feminists that want to extend the law to unmarried couples. But the result is both men and women don’t give a damn about feminists. The law was voted more than twenty years ago against the will of the population, most people, men and women were against it. People don’t marry anymore, they live together. And now we have the highest rate of unmarried couple in the world and the highest rate of out-of-wedlock birth in the world. A few years ago, a woman who never worked in her life wanted an alimony of 50 millions dollars from an ex boyfriend – she wanted to purchase an helicopter. Feminists supported her and most women were against her. And since there are abuses (a guy was paying child support to his ex-wife and he discovered she was using the money to purchase breasts implants). There’s an association of parents who have to pay child support to a former partner. What’s interesting is that since these guys victims of abuse have a new girlfriend and she has to take care of the guy, the association is headed by a woman.

    And it’s why I’m skeptical about the manosphere : according these guys, there are unfair laws voted by feminists and all women support them and exploit men therefore these guys have no choice but must giving up about women or go to Thailand. If the laws are unfair, guys are not going to be alone and suffer in silence, there are women who will take care of them. Why the guys from the manosphere cannot find a woman who will take care of them ? Why they need to give up about women or go to Thailand ? There are various polls that show that in the US, only 25% of women saw themselves as feminists and another one that said that 22% of women see being labeled a feminist as an insult. So there are plenty of women who don’t see themselves as feminists.

  78. marc2020 says:

    “There are various polls that show that in the US, only 25% of women saw themselves as feminists and another one that said that 22% of women see being labeled a feminist as an insult. So there are plenty of women who don’t see themselves as feminists.”

    @NMMNG I think this is more due to feminism being misappropriated than anything else. If you were to ask women if they cared about issues facing them like right wing loons trying to block access to birth control they would probably say they cared deeply about those issues because it affects them but if someone said “Ah so you’re a feminist then?” They’d say NO because the label has picked up some very unfortunate negative connotations among the general public through no fault of its own but down to the media only focusing in on the really extreme stuff or associating it with ivory tower elitists.

  79. Danny says:

    L:
    Just occurred to me: is there really that many men out there pursuing sex that they don’t necessarily want? You know, on a biological, hormonal, mental, and emotional level. Girls get virgin-shamed a ton too (but in a different way), but even barring that I had zero interest in actively pursuing sexual relationships, so I didn’t. I can’t imagine being so obsessed with getting sex that it doesn’t matter if I even want the sex or not, the important thing is that it happens. People actually do this? Regularly? I could see this being a thing where someone who doesn’t actually have an insatiable sex drive might attempt once or twice, get a one-night stand, and then go “yeah, that wasn’t all it was cracked up to be” and then tone it down.

    I dunno. Maybe I have a bizarre sample group, but out of all of my friends, and all of my family that I’ve ever had (and I’ve got dozens of cousins, none of this one uncle and one grandpa extended family shit), I’ve never encountered this. Like, ever. I know TONS of virgin guys, none of whom feel like they owe it to anybody to frantically start dating because they’ve got to prove their manliness.

    Yes, that’s ignoring the guys that actually DO enjoy casual sex and pursue it because they like it; I’m talking about the guys that are going after something they don’t even want. And then as far as the guys that do like casual sex all the time… well, I can’t understand having a strong enough need for sex that it becomes a driving force in my life and dictates all my social interactions.

    It may not be a case of guy pursuing sex they don’t want so much as a matter of guys pursuing sex in very unhealthy and sometimes dangerous ways. Guys that get girls drunk to have sex with them, guys that will risk unprotected sex, and I do believe there are guys that have sex that they truly do not want (probably not too different from women/girls getting the “If you loved me you would do it” treatment) just because “a real man would”. (And I think this belief that having sex with women makes one a “real man” may have something to do with some portion of gay guys that have sex with women.)

    When one buys into the idea that there is some condition that they must fulfill in order to count as a “real” _____ its not too hard to think that such a person will go to great lengths to do it.

  80. no more mr nice guy says:

    @Danny :
    Yes, that’s ignoring the guys that actually DO enjoy casual sex and pursue it because they like it; I’m talking about the guys that are going after something they don’t even want. And then as far as the guys that do like casual sex all the time… well, I can’t understand having a strong enough need for sex that it becomes a driving force in my life and dictates all my social interactions.

    You shouldn’t believe everything these guys are saying. There’s a guy who brag he had sex with 200 women and he left 50 comments on my blog on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, so I don’t think he has a lots of “Action”. 🙂

  81. Tamen says:

    Marc2020:

    They’d say NO because the label has picked up some very unfortunate negative connotations among the general public through no fault of its own but down to the media only focusing in on the really extreme stuff or associating it with ivory tower elitists.

    So the existence of extreme stuff and ivory tower elitists under the label feminist is through NO fault of the label? You don’t find it to be a sign of a failure of the non-extreme and non-elitists feminists to successfully convey that the extreme stuff and ivory tower elitists does not belong under the label feminist?

  82. no more mr nice guy says:

    @Tamen :

    Do you admit that most women do not see themselves as feminists ? And do you admit that constantly talking about misandrist feminists and saying that all women think like them is the reason why misogyny exist in the manosphere ?

  83. L says:

    @Daisy: Know what’s really strange? All the menfolk she’s getting advice from are ALSO in favor of her beating around the bush! Apparently they think she should be waiting for him to call too. And when she tells them my advice (be straight-forward and say what you mean), they claim that sort of stuff only works for me because I’m younger, and playing games is what the older generations are used to? Fuck if I even know. Some of them also said I didn’t know what I was talking about (despite being married now and surviving a 3-year LDR where clear verbal communication is absolutely KEY), so… fuck. Any theories?

  84. Tamen says:

    NMMNG: I am not sure how your questions are relevant to my question. I did not contest the first question, but asked if it really is true that feminists have NO influence on how feminist/feminism is perceived among those women who chose to not identify as feminists. I am not saying that non-extreme and non-elites feminists are the ONLY influence, but rather that I think the stance that they have NO influence is too strong an assertion.
    In fact I find myself in the same situation with regards to the label MRA. One aspect is that there is too much extreme stuff being allowed under that label by those who identify themselves as MRAs (if I apply Marc2020’s logic about feminists then MRAs is at no fault for allowing that stuff to take focus), another is that influental sites like Manboobz and many commenters on blog’s discussing gender matters insist that the definition of MRA is constrained to those extreme viewpoints (and thus any non-extreme voices is at risk for being conflated with those extreme voices). So I do what most women do with the label feminist – I don’t use that label even though I agree with some of the cases they bring up (unbalanced treatment in courts, too little acknowledgment of rape against men and more).

    I have made no claims about misogyny in the “manosphere” so I don’t get where your second question comes from at all. First off I don’t know what your definition of “manosphere” is. Secondly I’d say that sites conflating all women (or all feminists for that matter) with misandrist feminists often can be misogynist. Just as sites conflating extreme MRAs with all MRAs (like Manboobz) in my view can be misandric. At the very least neither type of sites are in my view any help in improving the situation for both genders as their only effect is being polarizing. And polarizing turns out (as one can see from US politics) to be a obstacle for getting anything done.

  85. Suturexself says:

    “Example, I once got a guy up to my place to listen to my Deadhead bootlegs and what did he do? Listen to the bootlegs. He did not seem to realize it was an invitation TO MY APARTMENT, LATE AT NIGHT, DUH! I now realize what Aspergers is (not understood in the 80s), and that a lot of the shy men I have known probably had this, and take things *very literally*.

    The only thing that breaks that kind of spell is to get very brazen, take off clothes or start rubbing his back, etc. And after a woman has gotten you INTO HER BEDROOM and you are still engrossed in the jams? Seems to me, at some point, you should notice there is a GIRL in the room! LOL”

    To be honest, Daisy, this account doesn’t sit well with me. Specifically, that you seem annoyed that he didn’t try to initiate sex after you invited him to your apartment under the guise of doing something nonsexual. If a man invited you to his place (or, lets say, invited a woman to his place, since most people will consider themselves the exception) with the expressed intention of doing something innocuous – and then waited for you (or her) to initiate sex.. do you think he would have equal right to accuse you(her) of having a form of autism?

  86. Hugh says:

    Agreed Suture.

    The idea “Oh, she invited me into her apartment late at night, therefore she clearly wants sex” is how a lot of rapes probably begin.

  87. Lamech says:

    @Daisy: I do applaud you for taking some iniative, but asking “want to eat pizza at my house?” is not “to hit them over the head with it.” That is asking them out to a activity that might be construed as a date, or might be construed as platonic. Its still in the ambigous zone. Asking them up to your room late at night, to look at manuscripts is a bit less ambigous, but it still is ambigous. And thats only if they consider the implications instead of taking you at face value.

    If you want to ask for some sort of romantic encounter the way to do it is ask for some sort of romantic encounter. If you “hint” at it, and say something else I don’t really see how you could complain about them understanding what you said and believing you meant what you said. If you intentionally hide your meaning I don’t have much empathy for a complaint that your meaning was hidden.

  88. Lamech says:

    P.S. I do also understand that you at times did do things other than just hint. Good job!

  89. dovahkintastic says:

    @Lamech

    I don’t believe Daisy was talking about things she’s done recently, or complaining at all – she was just highlighting examples of Women taking the initiative, insofar as she was saying that more Women being forward would be a good thing.

    @Daisy
    “But yes, I see that men without that background, would not necessarily realize that.”

    It isn’t just that – it’s that the “Oh, she invited me to her room, that means sex” is the kind of attitude/potential misconception that has led to things like rape. Even the basic dating script “put your arm around her – that went okay? Try pulling her towards you, maybe now kiss her…” sort of implicitly involves pushing boundaries *until* you get a no. A guy escalating physically is expected to behave in a sort of shoot-first-ask-questions-later approach – assume your touch is wanted *until* you’re told to back off. That’s a lot harder if you’re neurologically atypical, or lacking in experience, or hyper aware of consent.

    Sorry, I don’t mean to digress – I realize I’ve sort of sidetracked you.

  90. Hugh says:

    “That’s a lot harder if you’re neurologically atypical, or lacking in experience, or aware of consent.”

    Fixed that for you.

  91. dungone says:

    @daelyte, thanks for that link.

  92. Dr. Anonymous says:

    @NMMG

    I ask you once more. Where is you degree in psychology, since you seem to know everything about motivations and underlying mindsets of the PUA community.

  93. no more mr nice guy says:

    @Dr. Anonymous
    I’ve been reading shyness/dating forums since five years and there’s a lot of guys who tried PUA techniques there. For some of them it worked, for others, it didn’t, and there are guys who didn’t like the type of women they were attracting – PUA technique is good for casual sex, less good if you want a girlfriend. And there were PUAs as well who tried to help these guys. When I joined Lady Raine blog, I learned a lot more about PUAs because there are PUAs who came there to discuss various seduction techniques and Lady Raine knew a lot about psychology. And furthermore many women joined her blog and they knew about these things. One PUA, a guy called Assanova (he had a good blog about seduction techniques), said that he went to various lairs and said most PUAs students cannot get laid because they have no social skills and you cannot develop social skills by using pickup lines. And furthermore, since it’s a business, PUAs exaggerate their success. And I’ve been reading places like Puahate too and various other articles about psychology and seduction.

    For example there’s an article who say that most women don’t go in clubs :
    http://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/best-places-meet-women

    And Assanova made a good posting about the failure of the seduction community :
    http://web.archive.org/web/20100827115950/http://www.realassanova.com/2010/03/failure-of-secution-community.html?

  94. no more mr nice guy says:

    @Hugh:
    The idea “Oh, she invited me into her apartment late at night, therefore she clearly wants sex” is how a lot of rapes probably begin.

    There’s no need to touch her. You can just ask her if she want sex. If you just ask her, it’s not a rape. Have you ever read “Mode One: Let the Women Know What You’re REALLY Thinking” by Allan Roger Currie ?

  95. Dr. Anonymous says:

    @NMMG

    That does not answer the question. How do you know what the underlying motivations for the PUA scene is? The rest is probably relevant for something, however it is nor relevant for what we are disucssing.

  96. daelyte says:

    @dungone:
    “@daelyte, thanks for that link.”
    Share it far and wide. Might help a lot of men and women who don’t fit the traditional dating script, and I think that would be a very feminist and pro-men thing.

    @NMMNG:
    “most PUAs students cannot get laid because they have no social skills and you cannot develop social skills by using pickup lines”

    Yes, pickup lines are a crutch, and no substitute for a personality – but when you’re so uptight that you can’t get a word out or think straight, it’s better than nothing… and for many whose biggest problem is shyness, it can lead to the confidence needed to move beyond pickup lines into natural casual conversation.

    Kyriarchic dating scripts won’t work without social skills either, btw.

    @NMMNG:
    “For example there’s an article who say that most women don’t go in clubs :
    http://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/best-places-meet-women

    Kyriarchic dating advice, useless for the socially-impaired, likely to leads to niceguy-ism.

    When you have difficulty with social cues, a girl can invite you up to her room to listen to records or to read her manuscript, and yet no relationship will “happen naturally” because you just don’t get it.

    @NMMNG:
    “And Assanova made a good posting about the failure of the seduction community :
    http://web.archive.org/web/20100827115950/http://www.realassanova.com/2010/03/failure-of-secution-community.html?”

    Kyriarchic dating advice, useless for the socially-impaired, likely to leads to niceguy-ism.

    Men want casual sex, and women want commitment? Bull. Many women themselves report that if there’s no initial chemistry, nothing is going to happen no matter how much you try to “build a relationship”.

    Barking up the wrong tree won’t help anyone get laid, IMO so it’s more a matter of finding the people that ARE attracted to you. Trying to seduce someone who doesn’t want to be seduced is a waste of time, and frustrating for all involved.

    Self-improvement, learning to recognize IOIs, gaining some confidence, and learning to handle rejection gracefully can help a lot. The pickup community of people experimenting and sharing the results with each other is still the best game in town for learning how to do that all in one place. There is a need, one that kyriarchic dating articles fail to fill.

  97. dungone says:

    @daelyte, I actually did know about that study already. But the SA article is written well. I agree with you 100% that it’s a pivotal study.

    When you have difficulty with social cues, a girl can invite you up to her room to listen to records or to read her manuscript, and yet no relationship will “happen naturally” because you just don’t get it.

    We still live in a world where it’s considered reasonable for a girl to flutter her eyelashes at a guy and for a guy to “get it” but when men send other-than-overt signals to let women know that they’re interested, not only do the women almost never get it, but it’s often met with scorn and derision. What’s the difference, honestly, between fluttering of eyelashes at him and moving some heavy boxes around as a favor for her? Both people feel that their actions are a good-enough gesture so that they will be reciprocated with sex.

    I just don’t understand why it necessarily makes a guy shy or awkward if he doesn’t pick up on these signals each and every single time. Women can’t understand these signals any better than men can. You’d think that the best people for the job would be lesbians, but time and again my lesbian friends tell me that they don’t get women any better than I do. I honestly think it’s only straight women can really think that straight guys should just “get it” because they’ve never actually had to do the work of figuring it out for themselves.

  98. dungone says:

    Hmm… blockquotes didn’t take on that last comment. Second paragraph is a quote from daelyte.

  99. daelyte says:

    @dungone:
    “I actually did know about that study already. But the SA article is written well. I agree with you 100% that it’s a pivotal study.”

    Oh, that link. I thought you meant the other one.

    @dungone:
    “Women can’t understand these signals any better than men can. You’d think that the best people for the job would be lesbians, but time and again my lesbian friends tell me that they don’t get women any better than I do.”

    Incidentally, bisexual women are common among the early FPUAs, having discovered the pickup community due to dating a male PUA, “sarging” together, and then continuing to those methods on their own when trying to pick up other women… and men.

    @dungone:
    “I honestly think it’s only straight women can really think that straight guys should just “get it” because they’ve never actually had to do the work of figuring it out for themselves.”

    This, very much this. Which is yet another reason why more women should ask men out, to get a taste of what it’s like. Also more men would get a taste of the other side, getting unwanted approaches and trying to reject them tactfully.

  100. Danny says:

    NMMNG:
    You shouldn’t believe everything these guys are saying. There’s a guy who brag he had sex with 200 women and he left 50 comments on my blog on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, so I don’t think he has a lots of “Action”.
    Oh no I understand that not everything should taken at word but at the same time there are indeed a lot of men out there that do engage in dangerous sex practices and many of them do it for the bragging rights. In fact wouldn’t so those PUAs that you like rag on regularly fall into this?

  101. Hugh says:

    “There’s no need to touch her. You can just ask her if she want sex.”

    There’s no need to invite him up to your apartment, either. You can just ask him if he want (sic) sex.

  102. no more mr nice guy says:

    @daelyte :

    Assanova had a kid with woman who he helped to raise. A few months after the death of his kid, he stopped blogging. So, as a PUA, he had a certain credibility which is not the case of most PUAs who hang out around the manosphere. He wrote a post saying that in a relationship, men should lead. So the guy was the opposite of a submissive Nice Guy.

  103. no more mr nice guy says:

    @Danny:
    Oh no I understand that not everything should taken at word but at the same time there are indeed a lot of men out there that do engage in dangerous sex practices and many of them do it for the bragging rights. In fact wouldn’t so those PUAs that you like rag on regularly fall into this?

    The PUA culture created a whole subculture of guys who can only have casual sex with women from time to time. These guys cannot get into relationship, yet, they believe they are Alpha males. It’s obvious the way they talk that they have very limited experience with women and they are constantly crying “I’m stating I haven’t found such relationships IN THE WORLD: a relationship where the woman cares about the dude, and supports and helps and is there for his goals.” to justify their own loneliness.

  104. daelyte says:

    @NMMNG:
    “So the guy was the opposite of a submissive Nice Guy.”

    He is speaking from the position of someone who has the social skills to find relationships naturally through everyday interactions. There are plenty of people who don’t, and for who that advice would give them the wrong idea, hence leading them to niceguy-ism.

    @NMMNG:
    “These guys cannot get into relationship, yet, they believe they are Alpha males.”

    Many people confuse sigma males and alpha males. What Roissy’s test calls an alpha, I call a sigma – the lone wolf that women may have casual sex with, but most wouldn’t want a long-term relationship with one.

  105. Dr. Anonymous says:

    @NMMG

    And once again. The chicken and egg problem. Did the PUA culture create people like Roissy or did people like Roissy create the PUA culture. I have no idea. However is it relevant?
    From what I have seen on the Nice Guy ™ discussion and particullarly on the discussions about the jerks women chose, people like roissy should be no problem, if he was a genuine a-hole women would detect this and shun him.

  106. no more mr nice guy says:

    @Dr. Anonymous:
    And once again. The chicken and egg problem. Did the PUA culture create people like Roissy or did people like Roissy create the PUA culture. I have no idea. However is it relevant?
    From what I have seen on the Nice Guy ™ discussion and particullarly on the discussions about the jerks women chose, people like roissy should be no problem, if he was a genuine a-hole women would detect this and shun him.

    If there was no PUA culture, a guy like Roissy would be seen as a loser, that’s why he see himself as a PUA.

  107. Dr. Anonymous says:

    @NMMG

    If there was no PUA culture, a guy like Roissy would be seen as a loser, that’s why he see himself as a PUA.

    If there was no PUA culture guys like Roissy would probably just pick up another sub culture that defined them as edgy and dark. And once again, what is the problem with Roisy? If he he really is an a-hole, women would shun him as is so often explained to Nice Guys ™ on why women won’t date them.

  108. Danny says:

    NMMNG:
    The PUA culture created a whole subculture of guys who can only have casual sex with women from time to time. These guys cannot get into relationship, yet, they believe they are Alpha males. It’s obvious the way they talk that they have very limited experience with women and they are constantly crying “I’m stating I haven’t found such relationships IN THE WORLD: a relationship where the woman cares about the dude, and supports and helps and is there for his goals.” to justify their own loneliness.
    Did PUA culture create this subculture or was the subculture already there and PUA just became the easy to recognize label for it?

    Dr. Anonymous:
    If there was no PUA culture guys like Roissy would probably just pick up another sub culture that defined them as edgy and dark. And once again, what is the problem with Roisy? If he he really is an a-hole, women would shun him as is so often explained to Nice Guys ™ on why women won’t date them.
    Yeah if the likes of Roissy were really just striking out and was being shunned as much as people like to say they then PUA culture wouldn’t be where it is today. It would have died off on its own long before it got onto Thorn’s radar and those guys would just be regarded as assholes.

  109. no more mr nice guy says:

    When I was on Lady Raine blog, there are people who knew personally Roissy that emailed her, including women who dated Roissy, and the guy doesn’t tell the truth about his life. Another example of liar : Roosh, Roissy’s acolyte. There’s a woman ( Anoukange ) who knew him, she had sex with him, while on a trip in Columbia (she was ridiculed by the Roissy’s crowd because of it). And she said on her blog two years ago that Roosh started his sex life at 25, he’s constantly lying, and everywhere he goes, people hate him. She had a major conflict with Roosh because he publicly posted on his blog an email she sent him. I know another woman who have exchanged emails with many of the PUAs of the manosphere and she told me that the women they attract are not attractive (she saw their Facebook pictures) and one of these PUAs, who had a blog where he was constantly bashing women and bragging he would stay single for the rest of his life, secretly got married after closing his blog.

  110. Dr. Anonymous says:

    @NMMG

    So what you are telling us so far.
    Bitter former partners of Roissy tells us that he is an a-hole. Then why did they date him from the start? If everyone hates him, how did he manage to get dates?

    And you second statement. Other women trashtalking women that get dates out of PUAs? Not very high believability.

  111. I wrote:

    Yeah, that’s why I said, suddenly stripping seems to do the trick, although you take the risk he won’t like what he sees!

    And I get:

    Suture: To be honest, Daisy, this account doesn’t sit well with me. Specifically, that you seem annoyed that he didn’t try to initiate sex after you invited him to your apartment under the guise of doing something nonsexual.

    As I have said (earth to NSWATM), I preferred to initiate. (Is anybody reading what I actually write, or just rushing to judgment?)

    Stripping is nonsexual? I did if for a living once, and damn… it seemed to me that most men certainly thought so!

    Suture continues the blast: If a man invited you to his place (or, lets say, invited a woman to his place, since most people will consider themselves the exception) with the expressed intention of doing something innocuous – and then waited for you (or her) to initiate sex.. do you think he would have equal right to accuse you(her) of having a form of autism?

    Perhaps I did not make it clear: I tend to like men with Aspergers. These are exactly the men I like. We just did not have the word for this in the 80s.

    I am the opposite of autism, I am unfortunately in everyone’s business, try as I might to be different. So if someone “accused me” (having Aspergers is nothing to be ashamed of, therefore “accused” is not quite the word I would use, “diagnosed” maybe?) I would say they have no understanding of what the autism spectrum is and it is really dumb thing for them to say.

    Hugh: Agreed Suture.

    (makes list: Suture and Hugh think stripping is not sexual or a come-on. Got it.)

    Hugh: The idea “Oh, she invited me into her apartment late at night, therefore she clearly wants sex” is how a lot of rapes probably begin.

    You said this, I didn’t.

    Lamech: If you intentionally hide your meaning I don’t have much empathy for a complaint that your meaning was hidden.

    Note: flashing your tits is NOT hiding meanings. Or so I thought!

    PS: Lamech, thanks for bothering to go back and read. Amazing how that works!

    I just love when people pay close attention to what I say. If this blog is going to degenerate into constant GOTCHA games, I might as well go back to Feministe.

  112. dungone says:

    Stripping is nonsexual? I did if for a living once, and damn… it seemed to me that most men certainly thought so!

    Strippers actually approach men and ask them for money. If they didn’t, they’d most likely never make any. Oh, what a difference a couple dollar bills makes! The point being, you’re beating around the bush, Daisy – go up to the guy and kiss him yourself, the very thing that you actually want him to do for you! You let the horse out of the proverbial barn when you yourself admitted that even when stripping, the hope is that he likes what he sees. And speaking of stripping, don’t you know the old adage – there’s no sex in the champagne room. I don’t know, but the entire idea that stripping is sexual is just a messed up artifact of our repressed society. American women have to be coaxed into taking off their clothes when they visit a mixed-sex sauna in Europe, they are apparently so afraid that the minute they get naked a whole bunch of men will mount them.

  113. More gotcha! Thought I said I wanted LESS?

    Dungone: The point being, you’re beating around the bush, Daisy – go up to the guy and kiss him yourself, the very thing that you actually want him to do for you!

    I’ve done all that. Really, I thought I had established myself as a pushy slut, and yet I am told there is SOMETHING I am not doing.

    I think yall just love attacking anyone who uses the feminist label, doesn’t matter who it is or what they do. I have been thinking about writing (as fairly as I am capable) about the fabled manosphere. In doing so, and in my investigations, I have decided this grade-school level ATTACKING FEMINISTS WITH GUSTO (regardless of what we actually say, as above), is mostly where the MRA’s bad rep comes from–even more than the political differences.

    Its like when those 3rd grade boys always used to trip me on the way to the pencil sharpener–I never understood that, and I don’t understand this either.

    So maybe I am not the one to write it.

  114. dungone says:

    @Daisy Deadhead, I don’t doubt for a second that you’ve done all that and I don’t want you to doubt for a second that I appreciate a woman who does, even if it’s not a 100% effort. What I criticize you for right now is that you still seem to be fuzzy on the difference between signaling and initiating, which is a difference that gets beat into men’s skulls from the day they are born. And I say this with a healthy appreciation for what you’re saying. I think you understand that difference a million times better than the vast majority of women I’ve ever encountered within the feminist realm who nevertheless discuss things such as female agency. I’m just saying, for a guy’s perspective, if you don’t go 100% of the way then you haven’t really made it to the destination. That’s the standard that men are held up to – no ifs, ands, or buts. That’s what I’m trying to say.

  115. dungone says:

    @Daisy, in other words, the very fact that you discuss issues of “guys not getting it” as being a recurring problem is my issue. Guys don’t talk about women not getting it. They make women get it. Even if they have to painstakingly spell it out and get down on their knees and beg for it. If they don’t do that, everyone says that it’s nobody’s fault but theirs. The whole entire idea of women imposing on men to be able to understand context and read signals, and then complaining about it when they don’t, is the corollary to men having to initiate. If it wasn’t, then it wouldn’t be a problem.

  116. daelyte says:

    @Daisy Deadhead:
    “Stripping is nonsexual?”
    I think the “nonsexual” and/or “hidden meaning” comments were about listening to records and/or reading manuscripts. I’m pretty sure most north americans, even those of us with aspergers, would recognize stripping and flashing your tits is not normal platonic behavior around here. I suspect the typical male aspie would still not be sure what to do about it other than turning various entertaining shades of pink.

    @Daisy Deadhead:
    “I am the opposite of autism, I am unfortunately in everyone’s business, try as I might to be different.”
    One doesn’t prevent the other. Some aspies are very nosy and extroverted, despite being horribly inept at it. Others can even pass for normal, so long as they stick to social situations they know (but can’t easily adapt to new social situations).

    @dungone:
    “American women have to be coaxed into taking off their clothes when they visit a mixed-sex sauna in Europe, they are apparently so afraid that the minute they get naked a whole bunch of men will mount them.”

    That… is so funny.

    @dungone:
    “difference between signaling and initiating”
    Oh! I get what you’re saying now.

    This is probably doubly important for any women pursuing men with aspergers, as many of the latter wouldn’t know how to complete the mating dance unless you drag them all the way.

  117. daelyte: I suspect the typical male aspie would still not be sure what to do about it other than turning various entertaining shades of pink.

    Oh, you’d be surprised.

    One of them suddenly asked me if he could sing his favorite song to me, it was very sweet. I appreciate things like that!

    One doesn’t prevent the other.

    True, but I took that famous test and scored a whopping 8. I took it again, got a 7. I am REALLY LOW on this spectrum, is what I mean.

    http://www.piepalace.ca/blog/asperger-test-aq-test/

    If opposites attract, as I believe they often do, it makes sense I would want someone with a HIGH SCORE… someone who, when I ask (recent example) who said “history is bunk”?–I want a partner who does not need Wikipedia and can just tell you, QUICKER THAN GOOGLE.

    Damn, that shit is impressive!!!! I have never stopped being impressed. 😉

  118. daelyte says:

    @Daisy Deadhead:
    “One of them suddenly asked me if he could sing his favorite song to me, it was very sweet. I appreciate things like that!”

    Yep, that sounds about right.

    @Daisy Deadhead:
    “http://www.piepalace.ca/blog/asperger-test-aq-test/”

    Saw that test years ago, it’s pretty rubbish, half the questions test more for nerd lifestyle than aspergers, and plenty of people with other kinds of neurodiversity get false positives as well. That said, I did score 38.

    Try this one:
    http://rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php

    If you get through all 150 questions, you can probably check the “obsessive” symptom.

    Also check out http://www.wrongplanet.net/ if you haven’t – there’s a whole nest of us there.

    “If opposites attract, as I believe they often do, it makes sense I would want someone with a HIGH SCORE… someone who, when I ask (recent example) who said “history is bunk”?–I want a partner who does not need Wikipedia and can just tell you, QUICKER THAN GOOGLE.”

    Henry Ford (also quoted in Brave New World as “Our Ford”)… and IMO he was wrong. I prefer Hari Seldon’s approach.

  119. Schala says:

    I prefer the other Asperger test, not a big fan of Baron-Cohen.

    I have 136/200 on the other (Aspie-Quiz). Which is 69/200 neurotypical.

    As much as some might disbelieve self-diagnosis. I have either that or something extremely similar that is also not OCD, not bipolar, and not simple depression. Something that involves obsessive interests that have you ignore everything, difficulty multi-tasking, but unparalleled concentration on that one thing you do, being a picky eater to some extent, physically clumsy, and unable to read social clues even with a 2 by 4. Oh and, that has you able to ignore harmful social conventions by sheer principles and sense of justice (something that apparently makes others think you’re unsuitable for society).

  120. daelyte says:

    @schala:
    I could almost copy that post word for word, except for the NT bashing at the end, although I do understand your frustration. Judo helped me cope with the clumsiness, I highly recommend it.

  121. no more mr nice guy says:

    I have 136/200 on 56/200 neurotypical score. According to the result, I’m almost Autistic.

    @Dr. Anonymous :
    The woman that dated Roissy did not said he was an asshole. They casually dated three times and third time he said he loved her – she didn’t love him. He was not an alpha, he was a beta. I don’t think a woman will be jealous of another woman who’s dating a PUA. She will feel sorry for her.

  122. L says:

    @daelyte: Well shit, I might be an aspie. 145/200 on that test.

  123. Schala says:

    My result says “very likely Aspie”. And although the DSM wants to combine autism and asperger together into autism spectrum disorder, most people tend to consider them separate.

  124. I took that one back the first time Schala linked it. Scored 124/200.

  125. The graphic is purty, gonna put it on my blog!

    Logged in as DaisyDeadhead

    Thank you for filling out this questionnaire.

    Your Aspie score: 33 of 200
    Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 175 of 200
    You are very likely neurotypical

    What do I win?

  126. pocketjacks says:

    Interesting test. Aspie score: 64 of 200, NT score: 164 of 200, for what it’s worth. I have a feeling that while I’m almost certainly NT, I’m a bit more Aspie-like than that. They didn’t ask any questions about my most Rain Man-ish tendencies, such as my obsession with numbers, while a lot of their questions, frankly, seemed to come down to “if you were bullied and/or a loner when you were young, congrats! You is autism”. (I was neither, but I’ll PORE over sports statistics, even when not in a fantasy league.) Using the ubiquitous medicalization of everything to blame victims, how nice. (FTR I don’t think the test writers were malicious, but I don’t like the subtle idea that there’s something wrong with you if you were bullied. Rather, there’s something wrong with you if you were a bully.)

    I’ve read some of Clarisse’s book. I was pleasantly surprised when she name dropped Mark Manson, who is the PUA-related blogger I followed the most (and perhaps the only one I still consistently read), as one of her primary sources. I’d recommend his http://www.postmasculine.com for anyone who’s interested.

    I also remember him talking his exchange with a feminist, which in retrospect must have been Clarisse! (At the same time I was following her blog as well.) Wow, small world.

    It sounds depressingly familiar how NMMNG is accusing PUA-types of being “submissive” and “betas” as if these were insults. If it’s not okay to use “slut” or similar words to describe women, it’s not okay to use lack-of-traditional-masculinity as an insult toward men.

    Yeah, I know, he has the standard excuses. “I’m only using them because *they* would be insulted by that.” Bullshit. Then it should be okay to call Sarah Palin a slut and demolish her career, because *she* (and other conservative women) thinks that being a slut is bad.

    Either you believe such gendered insults are wrong or you don’t. You want to keep it in your back pocket as insults toward men you really don’t like, then wonder why words like “slut” haven’t disappeared yet. Because others can make the exact same excuses you do.

  127. Schala says:

    Interesting test. Aspie score: 64 of 200, NT score: 164 of 200, for what it’s worth. I have a feeling that while I’m almost certainly NT, I’m a bit more Aspie-like than that.

    You have a higher ‘aspie rating’ than Daisy does, for nearly the same NT rating. So it’s higher already.

    They didn’t ask any questions about my most Rain Man-ish tendencies, such as my obsession with numbers, while a lot of their questions, frankly, seemed to come down to “if you were bullied and/or a loner when you were young, congrats! You is autism”. (I was neither, but I’ll PORE over sports statistics, even when not in a fantasy league.)

    It’s a test based on statistical probability. So it’s say, 65% more likely for an aspie person to be bullied…because 65% more people who are aspies answered this way. It’s a test calibrated on people (probably not random testers like us, since its already calibrated) answering the questions, and basing the likelihood of ‘aspiness’ on wether they actually are. Good way to get a measure of what could be correlations, even if not symptoms.

    I can give you a day-long monologue about all the videogames I know, and give you detailed playthroughs about the ones I actually finished (and I finished them many times each, of course). I’m obsessive enough about MMORPGs I play that I’ll look up technical information about the game before even playing the game. I’ll read the instruction manual if there’s one, and I’ll be ready to finish it to 100% if it’s not head-banging frustrating to do so (Star Ocean 4 – getting 100% trophies will likely take 600 hours, here, have fun), and I actually like the game. I become an encyclopedia, complete with photographic memory including about pointless details of the plot/landscape/etc of the game, so that anyone that knows me will ask me for advice or questions, that will seem utterly evident and “you should have known that” knowledge.

    Using the ubiquitous medicalization of everything to blame victims, how nice. (FTR I don’t think the test writers were malicious, but I don’t like the subtle idea that there’s something wrong with you if you were bullied. Rather, there’s something wrong with you if you were a bully.)

    And lastly, I’m not sure it says something is wrong with you. I think asperger is value neutral. It might make it less likely for me to succeed at obtaining work, getting a successful career, or dating (though less as female), but I don’t base life success on having done that. If life is futile, let’s not brag about being a slave to capitalism to the very end, or cry about not being able to do so. Let’s talk about what *you* (general you) as a person, want to do. Not what you were told you should want to do. Or ‘what everyone else does’ (the whole white picket fence, married 2.1 kids, 2 cars, house in the suburbs myth of happiness that corporate America sells us).

  128. Suturexself says:

    Wow, Daisy.

    Wow, Daisy. Just, wow.

    So, I reply to one thing you write, and you interject A DIFFERENT QUOTE to preface my reply, and then you draw a ridiculous conclusion now that you’ve put my reply entirely out of context?

  129. Suturexself says:

    Actually Daisy, please just ignore the last question. When you have to do mental gymnastics like that so you can make some insulting claim about “What suture thinks”… you’re not worth the aggravation.

  130. Dr. Anonymous says:

    @NMMG
    The woman that dated Roissy did not said he was an asshole. They casually dated three times and third time he said he loved her – she didn’t love him. He was not an alpha, he was a beta.

    All this from her own account? Not very credible.

    “I don’t think a woman will be jealous of another woman who’s dating a PUA. She will feel sorry for her.”

    And this you know how? Seems like a very odd way to express sympathy to label other women as unattractive.

  131. no more mr nice guy says:

    @pocketjacks :
    It sounds depressingly familiar how NMMNG is accusing PUA-types of being “submissive” and “betas” as if these were insults. If it’s not okay to use “slut” or similar words to describe women, it’s not okay to use lack-of-traditional-masculinity as an insult toward men.

    I’m not accusing them of being submissive or beta, but if a guy brag that he’s a pitbull with women while in fact he’s a poodle, it’s normal to call him on his hypocrisy.

  132. Schala says:

    “I’m not accusing them of being submissive or beta, but if a guy brag that he’s a pitbull with women while in fact he’s a poodle, it’s normal to call him on his hypocrisy.”

    Hypocrisy is expecting something of others that you do not expect of yourself. At best he’s lying.

    And you are devaluing submissiveness and “betaness” in males by calling them basically losers who can’t get laid (such as when you refer to PUA followers as unable to get laid/relationships, and thus not worth listening to).

    Referring to ‘alphaness’, dark-triad type traits, or basically “Bad Boy ®” behavior as THE standard to attain, is just playing the gender-role police and saying “You’re doing it wrong” to people who aren’t as “interesting” (read: They couldn’t be on a show like Jackass) as those types.

  133. no more mr nice guy says:

    I don’t believe in alpha/beta hierarchy. I didn’t say that that “beta males” cannot get laid, or are not worth listening to, I said Roissy couldn’t get laid – which for him is beta. And I said there’s a lot of PUAs who are like that too. I didn’t talked about “beta males” in general. And if a PUA is constantly disparaging “beta males” by saying they cannot get laid while he cannot get laid himself, that make him an hypocrite.

  134. pocketjacks says:

    @ NMMNG,

    I agree with Schala. You clearly said those things within screeds expressing your dislike/disagreement with these guys, in a manner clearly intended to detract from them in some way. And I see you’ve dodged the analogy you have no answer for.

    Is calling a conservative or religious woman you disagree with “slut” or “whore” also okay? After all, those women believe that being a slut is bad. So we’d just be pointing out hypocrisy! (Honest!)

    Of course not. I’m sure you’ve dutifully ingested the ideology that such epithets are not okay, period, when used seriously, and “pointing out hypocrisy” is a lame, insufficient excuse. (I’m sure the “edgy” boys at liberal blogs like FireDogLake also don’t really believe in the madonna/whore complex either when they call Palin, that governor of Arizona forget her name, etc. female epithets.) In this case, that ideology happens to be correct.

    I’m sure you don’t really believe “beta”-ness or male submissiveness are actually wrong – that much can be gleaned from the ideology with which you’ve presented yourself. (In fact I have more confidence of that than that one of your bent would find “alpha”-ness or male dominance – in sex play terms – okay, beyond bare boilerplate through gritted teeth.) But that’s neither here nor there. We wouldn’t accept similar excuses for gendering or (de)sexualizing epithets against women, which would be declared pro forma off limits. You have one standard for men and another for women; that much can also be gleaned from the ideology with which you’ve presented yourself.

    I suppose, to extend the analogy, that if a minister preached fire and brimstone for fornicators and then she herself were caught having an affair, there has to be a way of pointing that out without being seen as an anti-slut prude. But this isn’t the equivalent of that. Roissy’s an ass clown and I don’t want to be defending him, but as Dr Anonymous said, our “evidence” consists of the jilted word of an ex-girlfriend, itself and other claims filtered through angrily biased sources like Lady Raine’s blog. So it’s more like gossipy games of innuendo passed through the church newsletter, which would be wrong even if the preacher were a real piece of work.

    (On the other hand, I do recommend PUAhate. It’s a useful look at the other side of an industry wracked with scammers, con artists, and little to no internal standards and no external ones. I believe PUA can work – but that it usually doesn’t, for the same reasons that crash diets and exercise can work but usually don’t in the real world. The two industries, in fact, I see as incredibly alike. I should warn, though, that the site can be massively triggering – if RocketFrog were still here, I wouldn’t even mention it. There are some suicidally depressed and lonely men over there. Just because an online banner ad proclaiming that You Can Have Any Woman In Thirty Days Or Money Back Guarantee turned out not to help you, doesn’t mean that genuine self-improvement isn’t possible or that your life won’t ever get better than it is now, but you can’t reason with the depressed.)

    That the anti-PUA crowd use “that guy can’t even get laid!” or “that guy’s actually a real pussy around women – he’s not dominant!” as their first lines of attack, or that they use them at all, is itself revealing. I’m conflicted on PUA and my position is probably most in line with Hugh Ristik (also quoted extensively, generally approvingly, in Clarisse Thorn’s book), though I don’t have his knowledge and experience to back it up. I do think the whole thing relies on gendered scripts and sexual relations that not everyone follows, cause damage to many women and men, and could cause offense to some. But IME, there are many more in America who do follow those scripts, (I’d claim a strong majority, but I’m not married to that claim,) and that we can’t expect lonely, desperate guys who just want to get their feet off the ground any way they can to bear the great burden of change. Anti-PUA ideologues of a certain stripe won’t accept this and think that such men are bad and deserve what they get for doing so, but they themselves can’t be bothered to scrap those same gendered scripts when they believe it makes for the best short-term attack on an Internet argument. It’s not okay for a crushingly lonely, 28-year old who’s never been kissed let alone fucked, guy to piggyback on a few gendered scripts to get his life in gear, but it’s too much to ask for a few angry crusaders to completely a drop a species of personal attack that makes them look cool and edgy online. Why should such obviously self-centered people think they have any moral authority?

    @ Schala,

    This is a sensitive issue, I know, and I realize I’m talking to an actual Aspie so I’ll measure my words carefully. I think if something’s medicalized, it by definition shows that something is wrong with you, in society’s eyes. Asperger’s is not value-neutral socially, that much is uncontroversial between us, I’m sure. I’m not sure how I feel about this idea that it’s value-neutral diagnostically, either. Bit of background, while I’m not 100% set on anything as a useless post-college layabout, I want to be involved in health care eventually – either through medicine, biotech, or hell even as an intellectual hobby – and I’ve seen case studies of people claiming various disabilities, such as deafness, as just different lifestyles, not medical conditions that need to be corrected. Where does it end? Especially when they oppose treatment for their children…

    If I were a doctor dealing with high functioning autism – and given my primary interest in mental health, this may, fingers crossed, be a reality some day – I’d allow adults to go untreated if they wish but push heavily for treatment on children. I did a term presentation back in college linking autistic symptoms with pathologically inactive oxytocin circulation based on a mutation on a specific immune protein (CD38). It was in mice, but still. One day an actual cure, not just costly, time-consuming behavioral therapy, may be a reality, within our lifetimes. On that day, would you opt for treatment? I think it should be administered to children as a matter of course. It’s saving them from what would be an unduly hard life.

    As for the test… yeah, I get that, but I still find the bullying-autism connection to be a bit inappropirate. Like, yes, for a test on STD’s, questions about partner count would be medically relevant, but this to me sounds more like a test on STD’s asking you about voting Democrat rather than Republican. (If you argue that STD’s are physical and objective while HF ASD is less so, then fine, let’s switch it to “sex addiction”, then.) There’s probably some correlation there, too, but I find it inappropriate. YMMV.

  135. pocketjacks says:

    Ehh, when you write long comments, you have stuff in your head that you wanted to write but end up forgetting. Here’s one.

    With respect to NMMNG’s claim that he wasn’t attacking “betas” in general but only Roissy, which makes it okay: Sarah Palin’s a specific person, too, and one who opposes sluthood, fornication, etc. etc. (I’m assuming. If not, insert other conservative/Republican female figure who does.) Is calling her a slut (but not making a broadside against “sluts” in general) okay?

  136. Schala says:

    I think if something’s medicalized, it by definition shows that something is wrong with you, in society’s eyes. Asperger’s is not value-neutral socially, that much is uncontroversial between us, I’m sure. I’m not sure how I feel about this idea that it’s value-neutral diagnostically, either.

    If you like BDSM or are an atheist, people (in the US anyways) will think something is wrong with you. While this is only wrong in the context of an ultra-religious-and-church-going puritanical society (ie it’s not even considered wrong here, in Quebec province, just a bit north of New York state). Ergo: It’s not wrong, it’s just under appreciated.

    I consider asperger the same. Capitalism can’t appreciate it because capitalism only cares about the bottom line, even though aspies generally make good underlings with a clear structure. Such jobs being rare enough (if not prestigious) makes many be unemployable due to the lack of that clear structure (where you know exactly what your employer wants you to do, to the last detail, at any one time). Any work-with-the-public job would fall short. And many jobs where the employer wants you to “just figure stuff out” won’t do usually (simply because I consider all possibilities that are to figure out, and end up with millions of possibilities…and having to pick…and not knowing on what basis I should pick).

    The worst thing you could do to me, work-wise, would be to tell me to “do it how I feel”, or give me a lot of discretion on how to do things. It will either not be to your liking, or never finish. I won’t do what you would expect neurotypical people to do, unless it’s the only possibility. Ask me to clean the floor…and I’ll probably pick the wrong tool to do so if there’s more than one (and there usually is). You would have to ask me to clean the floor with that cleaning product (unless its the only one) and that tool. It would be nice if you specified if I should move the furniture while I do it or if the furniture should not be moved for another reason.

    I’ve prepared commands, and tested videogames. Two jobs that differ in their physicality, but both are rather structured. Commands have specific codes for each product, and it states the quantity. Packaging has certain standards about what to pack in what size, what is a box that is too big (or too heavy), how to finish closing the box if there is room besides the flap (adding carton box scraps). Videogames has procedures and manners of reporting bugs that have ready-made sentences where you just add the specifics of that one bug (you still have to type that ready-made sentence every time). There is a protocol to show the problem in a screenshot (in a red square box with a short big text sentence describing the problem pointing to the red box). And even a way to name the screenshot(s) per the bug. See, structured.

    As for why society itself is uncomfortable with aspies. The usually impersonal way I interact, not looking at someone I speak to necessarily (and probably not looking in the eyes ever). Not understanding some conventions that seem to matter a lot to certain people, even though they make no logical sense whatsoever. Like what shoes go with what kind of clothing. Apparently you can’t wear sneakers with a skirt…even if you go for a walk/running/cycling. It’s a ‘faux pas’. One I usually don’t care about. My feet come first.

    Not hitting girls (but boys being fair game) was a weird one to contend. Thankfully I was only confronted once, since I’m generally non-violent (I only ever defend myself, and rather ineffectuably). That one time a girl pushed me until I had enough. I turned around, picked up her collar (and apparently her necklace), and just stood there for a minute. Then I left. I was seen as evil for it, too. Because I was seen as male. And males suck it up, or something.

    I’d say no to behavioral therapy. Especially therapy aimed at “appearing normal to people”. Therapy meant to remove stimming behavior and to force you to make eye contact. I don’t want that, ever. For my kids or any kids, I’d have resented having that as a kid too.

    I’d also say no to a cure for the same reason I’d say no to a cure for not being trans (meaning identifying as male instead of identifying as female, of course). Identifying as female is a fundamental part of me. If you cure it, there is no me left.

  137. Schala says:

    “On that day, would you opt for treatment? I think it should be administered to children as a matter of course. It’s saving them from what would be an unduly hard life. ”

    J Michael Bailey also said that aborting fetuses on the basis of knowing them to be gay is morally neutral, it saves them from an unduly hard life by having them never be born.

  138. dovahkintastic says:

    @pocketjack
    “That the anti-PUA crowd use “that guy can’t even get laid!” or “that guy’s actually a real pussy around women – he’s not dominant!” as their first lines of attack, or that they use them at all, is itself revealing. ”

    “Can’t get laid” or “Isn’t assertive” is really sort of the one-size-fits-all insult to use on Men – it’s such a culturally ingrained idea that it’s really rare to meet people who *won’t* support those things as the ultimate denigration of a Man’s character.

    I’m actually kind of surprised Noah hasn’t ever touched on “success with romance or sex” aspect of the “Success Object” topic he likes to write about – though I suppose (given that most Men *do* conform (or rather, at least fake conformity) sufficiently to assertive gender norms) that it ends up being less “Men are required to be successful in (x topic)” than a “Men are required to not be unsuccessful”.

  139. Dr. anonymous says:

    @NMMG

    Why do you avoid to answer my questions.
    Firstly you claim that the woman who dated Roissy didn’t love him, but that he declared his love for her on the third date. To my ears this sounds a lot like a defence mechanism. She doesn’t get dumped, she dumps.

    And your second claim.
    When did labeling of other women as unattractive get rephrased as sympathy?

    I am more and more getting the feeling that all this feminist hate on the PUA culture is that it upsets the balance between the class of sexless men, certainly lacking because they deserve it. And the the class of sexually successful men, successful because they deserve to be.

  140. no more mr nice guy says:

    @pocketjacks :

    I didn’t say these guys cannot get laid to insult them, I said it to prove that PUAs lie and that many guys who follow PUA advice will just end up worst. As an example, here’s Mystery explaining why women are attracted to men in clubs. The guy say that looks doesn’t count for women and that women have one-night-stand to have a baby and more important he says that women say the opposite of what they do : If a woman say she’s not attracted to you, she is.

    Do you believe that “28-year old who’s never been kissed let alone fucked guy” will have success if he believe this ? What will happen is the guy will never believe what women say, will constantly believe that women are saying the opposite what they think. It’s no wonder why, here, the pro-PUA crowd is constantly arguing with women : for them, women say the opposite of what they do and they are not trustable.

  141. We are anonymous says:

    @NMMG

    I think a 28 year old who’s never been kissed will have more success following the PUA script than following scripts from anti-PUAs, advice that mostly consists of ‘don’t do this’.

  142. daelyte says:

    @pocketjacks:
    “Asperger’s is not value-neutral socially, that much is uncontroversial between us, I’m sure. I’m not sure how I feel about this idea that it’s value-neutral diagnostically, either.”

    Sometimes there are tradeoffs in life, and in genetics.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29

    Some people train for years to be able to attain “Flow” on a semi-regular basis. Many report a fivefold increase in productivity compared to their peers while in this state. It’s useful for martial arts, sports, music, art, reading, programming, searching, inventing, and many other activities. Every aspie I spoke to about this seems to be born with the ability to go into a state of “flow” very easily, even by accident. As far as I can tell, it seems to be a perk of ASDs in general, including low functioning individuals. Would you deny a monk his “zen”?

  143. Schala says:

    @daelyte

    A state of unlimited concentration that generally can’t be interrupted if the interest in the task is high enough?

    It was very useful for videogame testing. It’s probably considered awful for driving a car however, except maybe for races (in everyday driving it would be a handicap to not be able to divert attention away at will, to say, spot other cars coming from other directions). I’m generally good in Gran Turismo, and have panic mental scenarios about even TRYING to drive in real life, so much that I didn’t give much thought to ever getting a driving license.

    When I did work in videogame testing, I was about 5x more productive than peers, too bad it didn’t get much recognition from the people above (the job is underpaid, no security, no insurance, no guaranteed schedule, and this particular one was far enough I had to get other workers to give me lifts (in exchange for some money, which hurt my paycheck, too).

  144. pocketjacks says:

    @Schala,

    We have to draw the line somewhere. There are mental afflictions out there where patients want to amputate their own limbs. Is that a lifestyle choice on par with BDSM? Any doctor who knows of such a situation and doesn’t intervene, even against the patient’s will, is abandoning his ethical duty, I feel.

    I think we can also differentiate between ailments that are debilitating in and of themselves, and those that are detrimental only due to social prejudice against them. In case of putative mental disorders, a good metric would be, would this person have problems leading a normal social life and a normal professional life, if they were never “outed”? A gay person or kinkster would be just like everyone else under such circumstances, while to an autistic, significant living impairment is intrinsic to their condition. I’m not saying homosexuals or BDSM-oriented individuals should necessarily have to “pass as normal”, but the fact that it’s even possible for them to do shows that there’s a qualitative difference between what makes them different and what makes an Asperger’s syndrome sufferer different.

    I do agree that high functioning autism is a borderline case, as diagnoses go, and I apologize if my pronouncements cause real ASD sufferers offense. I’m only motivated by the desire to see the most justice for those who are born with these conditions. For context, I also have transhumanist leanings and believe that, for instance, we should re-write our genetic code to get rid of genetic illnesses.

    @daelyte,

    High-functioning autistics are certainly within their rights to refuse treatment if they wish. (I just disagree w/r/t to children.) But low-functioning ASD? They require 24 hour care and may barely be able to feed themselves. Such considerations should trump “zen”, I should think.

    @NMMNG,

    I didn’t say these guys cannot get laid to insult them, I said it to prove that PUAs lie

    You didn’t call a man you disagreed with a “poodle” because it was a link in a chain of a sober proof. It was a gut-level attempt to associate someone you don’t like with unmasculine traits, as a way of making them look bad. You also brought up the word “submissive”, out of nowhere, during an ancillary point. Save the act for the judge.

    I’d agree with dovahkintastic that this line of attack against men is common, but I’m saying something more specific than that. It’s that these insults are being used precisely by those people who should be the most ideologically opposed to their premises. If they’re going to piggyback on such gendered norms whenever they really need to feel like they won an argument and it’s most efficient way to silence a man, I don’t see why very lonely or desperate guys shouldn’t feel free to piggyback on them if it makes them feel more attractive and it helps them get their foot out the door. The latter addresses a real need, a real emotional suffering. The former is just self-centered people being petty.

    he says that women say the opposite of what they do : If a woman say she’s not attracted to you, she is.

    Everything from your self-description suggests that you don’t go to clubs. (And no, college night at a club doesn’t count. Completely different environment.) Flirting there can be quite adversarial, and girls there certainly do do things like brush you off, while warming up to you if you just bulldog through all that. I’ve experienced it myself. Part of the reason PUA advice can sound so adversarial because it’s built for this environment (and it was birthed in the clubs of Los Angeles, of all places… yikes…), but this idea that women never send mixed signals is one of the Noble Lies of the gendersphere. (Men do too, of course… mixed signals are part of flirting.) People are worried that admitting it means losing ground on the messages on rape and harassment, which I can understand. I think most people are capable of differentiating between charged flirting and a rape situation, but men who do are by definition not normal in their thinking or disposition.

    But in this case, its good intentions doesn’t prevent it from being a lie. Any flirting guide to intense, status-obsessed environments such as most singles clubs that doesn’t address it is woefully incomplete, too worried about political correctness to be useful in the real world.

  145. pocketjacks says:

    @We are anonymous,

    I think a 28 year old who’s never been kissed will have more success following the PUA script than following scripts from anti-PUAs, advice that mostly consists of ‘don’t do this’.

    I agree. Or rather, I think he’d do at least as good if not a bit better than following mainstream sources, and significantly better than if he followed most feminist ones. I also think it’s up to him what he does, and would be suspicious of people trying to shield him from his own choices lest he pick the wrong one. They clearly don’t have his best interests in mind.

    @Dr anonymous,

    I, for one, noted your criticism and borrowed it in my last post. “Ignore arguments you can’t counter, hope to bury it under newer comments” is a rhetorical tactic as common as it is dishonest. I’m glad you’re not letting them off the hook, keep at it.

    However, I have to disagree with this:

    I am more and more getting the feeling that all this feminist hate on the PUA culture is that it upsets the balance between the class of sexless men, certainly lacking because they deserve it. And the the class of sexually successful men, successful because they deserve to be.

    What about the type of feminist that we’re talking about has made you believe that they’re ever a friend to sexually successful men?

    While I disagree with your characterization, I do think there are unstated reasons why certain men and women are vehemently opposed to the idea of PUA, and they’re not the reasons they claim. But I don’t want to open up that whole can of worms when I think this thread is about to die a natural death. (I may resurrect it when I’m finished reading the book to post a quick review.)

  146. Thomas says:

    @HughRistik

    Thanks for the detailed response and sorry for my delayed answer. To be honest, I can’t really argue with your points because my insights in the community are minimal. My negative initial reaction to Clarisse’s experiences was a gut reaction. In this spirit, dissecting social interaction in such a highly analytical way just seems weird and wrong-headed to me. My impression is that instead of seeing and accepting the basic things PUAs seem to engage in an awful lot of post-hoc rationalization.

    The simple truth is if you are not tall, handsome, rich, famous etc. you will never pick up generically hot girls with ease. I have a pretty good idea how the mating process in the nightlife works and guys who get laid a lot always fall in some variation of these categories. It’s also worth noting that not every guy who has the ability to get a lot of casual sex is interested in it.

    Just like @pocketjacks the pick up community reminds me a lot of the fitness/diet industry. Many trainers try to advertise their work-out as the ultimate way to get strong, ripped, buff, whatever. In the end it comes down to this: Exercise, eat healthy and stick to it. No matter what kind of routine you follow you will get results. But you have to exercise, no amount of theoretical knowledge will make your muscles grow.

    To stay in this analogy, recently I read a bit about the health-at-every-size movement ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_at_Every_Size ). IMO, this is what the pick up community should look like to genuinely help men. On the contrary, it’s more a six-pack-in-six weeks scam. Everybody with training experience knows it doesn’t work that way but people in distress who are struggling with their weight for years might feel drawn to it.

  147. Dr. Anonymous says:

    @Thomas

    There is a reason most scam campaigns go exticnt quite quickly. People are smart enough to see through them. The very same mechanism would probably work here. If the PUA community was just a bunch of scam artist contributing nothing of value it would go defunct within weeks. It hasn’t so why is this?

  148. no more mr nice guy says:

    @pocketjacks :
    Attacking Roissy is not attacking all men.

    In his video, Mystery doesn’t talk about mixed signals sent by a woman when she flirt in a bar, he talks about all women – it’s the reason why he talks about shoes and hair. So guys who believe him will try this stuff everywhere on any woman – including at 4 AM in an elevator.

  149. no more mr nice guy says:

    @Dr. Anonymous:
    There is a reason most scam campaigns go exticnt quite quickly. People are smart enough to see through them. The very same mechanism would probably work here. If the PUA community was just a bunch of scam artist contributing nothing of value it would go defunct within weeks. It hasn’t so why is this?
    No man will admit he spent $3000 in a boot camp to learn how to hypnotize women. And there are scam campaign who don’t go extinct quickly : scam campaigns about losing weight.

  150. Dr. Anonymous says:

    @NMMG

    “No man will admit he spent $3000 in a boot camp to learn how to hypnotize women. ”
    With the advent of anonymous internet I am highly sceptical. At this given moment I can google sites like PUAhate.

    “And there are scam campaign who don’t go extinct quickly : scam campaigns about losing weight.”
    Most of them amount to the same thing. Eat less, exercise more.

  151. no more mr nice guy says:

    All the guys on Puahate are cautiously anonymous, so PUAs can dismiss the what is said there. You won’t see a bunch of guys publicly going on TV and saying they have been scammed by PUAs.

  152. Schala says:

    “In case of putative mental disorders, a good metric would be, would this person have problems leading a normal social life and a normal professional life, if they were never “outed”?”

    Define normal social life? What’s wrong with preferring to be alone? What’s wrong with being asocial (ie avoiding social events as much as possible, even if you do okay while into them)?

    What is a normal professional life? A string of dead-end jobs forever until you die counts? One dead-end job at Mom and Pop’s eatery until you die counts?

  153. Thomas: …you will never pick up generically hot girls with ease.

    Yes, and as we all know, they MUST be hot.

    Just underlining this… you all glide past this little phrase as a given— as if you are not excluding 75% of the women you meet, then wonder why you’re alone.

    You have no moral authority to criticize ANY women for wanting a rich or famous man, if you summarily reject all “non-hot” girls.

    Same. Same. Same.

  154. daelyte says:

    @schala:
    “It’s probably considered awful for driving a car however, except maybe for races (in everyday driving it would be a handicap to not be able to divert attention away at will, to say, spot other cars coming from other directions).”

    Actually, driving is one of the most common situations where even non-autistics report having occasionally experienced hyperfocus. Usually while driving at twice the speed of surrounding traffic, bobbing and weaving between other vehicles, aware of the exact position, direction and speed of every vehicle and pedestrian in a two-block radius… or something like that. Just don’t try to have a conversation with someone in that mental state.

    @pocketjacks:
    “I’m not saying homosexuals or BDSM-oriented individuals should necessarily have to “pass as normal”, but the fact that it’s even possible for them to do shows that there’s a qualitative difference between what makes them different and what makes an Asperger’s syndrome sufferer different.”

    In fact many adult aspies can and do pass for normal most of the time. The occasional slip-ups, and long-term effects of those, are the main problem. Most people just think I’m a nerd, not realizing that I’m just going by their choice of words and not their tone of voice, facial expressions, and body language. So long as I don’t screw up too badly, they can’t tell the difference.

    Not to mention, people who are unusually tall may have difficulty passing through doorways, finding clothes that fit, sitting properly in a car, and can’t easily pass for normal. Should we abort basketball players?

    @pocketjacks:
    “I do agree that high functioning autism is a borderline case, as diagnoses go, and I apologize if my pronouncements cause real ASD sufferers offense. I’m only motivated by the desire to see the most justice for those who are born with these conditions.”

    Most young aspies suffer greatly due to the inflexibility of the school system, and the prison-like social environment it creates. I think basic classes in non-verbal communication and behavioral sciences would help young aspies tremendously.

    @pocketjacks:
    “For context, I also have transhumanist leanings and believe that, for instance, we should re-write our genetic code to get rid of genetic illnesses.”

    Before erasing people from the gene pool, you should at least carefully consider potential trade-offs. Sickle-cell anemia and thalassothemia help protect from malaria. Fast-twitch vs slow-twitch muscles. Several genetic illnesses even have suspiciously high correlation to higher IQ in relatives or the individual themselves, such as myopia, tay-sachs, tourettes.

    @pocketjacks:
    “High-functioning autistics are certainly within their rights to refuse treatment if they wish. (I just disagree w/r/t to children.) But low-functioning ASD? They require 24 hour care and may barely be able to feed themselves. Such considerations should trump “zen”, I should think.”

    I wouldn’t give up my “zen” for better social skills, but I’d rather have it both ways if I could.

    I haven’t heard of any low-functioning, or even mid-functioning autistics who wouldn’t rather be high-functioning. There is some evidence that functioning level has nothing to do with individuals being “more autistic” but rather other problems such as mental retardation, sensory processing disorders, and motor coordination problems, which have fewer (if any) upsides. Go ahead and fix those, please.

  155. daelyte says:

    @DaisyDeadhead:
    One man’s 4 is another man’s 10, and vice-versa. Just because guys want to pick up hot girls, doesn’t meant they agree on what that actually means. The community in PUA forums seem to understand that not everyone has the same ideal of “hot”, or the even same goals. (casual sex, LTR, family and kids, soul mate, …)

    For what it’s worth, at least 80% of women I see are physically attractive to me, and I’d probably bed the other 20% if they really wanted to. Unfortunately I can’t tell who’s interested, don’t know when/where/how to approach, and I don’t want to be “elevator guy”.

  156. Schala and daelyte, autism note.

    “60 Minutes” is doing a show on “Face blindness”–people who can’t remember faces at all. The opposite is of this is “super-recognizers” –who remember virtually ever face they’ve ever seen. There is a secondary condition associated with that, known as “before they were famous” syndrome, people who can easily recognize very old photos of well-known people. I scored pretty high on this, missed only two.

    Since I scored so low (high?) on that NT test, I am thinking it is likely that they are connected. I know, causation, correlation, etc etc… but still, it is interesting to me!

    Here is the test (watch video): http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-57399111-10391709/

  157. daelyte says:

    @DaisyDeadhead:
    Prosopagnosia, I have a friend who has it. I saw him on a bus once, a few hours after we chatted elsewhere. Out of context, he had no idea who I was until I reminded him.

    So are you hypersocial? My dad is like that, and his mother before him. Force of nature.

    A lot of aspies end up with a hypersocial friend (or partner). Seems that for those who know everyone and heard all the jokes, aspies never stop being interesting.

  158. cronodas says:

    A state of unlimited concentration that generally can’t be interrupted if the interest in the task is high enough?

    This is called hyperfocus and, paradoxically, it’s often a sign of ADHD.

    My remark about “hit them over the head with it”: Example, I once got a guy up to my place to listen to my Deadhead bootlegs and what did he do? Listen to the bootlegs.

    You know, in that situation, I would do that, too.

  159. Doug S. says:

    (Hmmm… my WordPress login didn’t default to “Doug S.” as I expected it to.)

  160. pocketjacks says:

    @Thomas,

    The simple truth is if you are not tall, handsome, rich, famous etc. you will never pick up generically hot girls with ease.

    I’d like to give you time to clarify, because this sounds really bad. Of course not every man can pick up generically hot girls because – for starters – there are far more men (no qualifiers) than there are generically hot girls.

    Your analogy with the “Health At Every Size” movement suggests that you didn’t mean to say what would be the worst interpretation of what you said. Not everyone can (or even wants to) get a Hollywood star’s body or success with women, due to life circumstances, genetics, or whatever, but everyone is capable of much better than they’re doing now, right? Someone who has reached physical maturity with a certain frame and weight range cannot reliably drop 60 lb. in a healthy manner (which may be what’s necessary to go from visibly fat to socially normal), and so should not be expected to do so, but they can eat right, exercise, and drop 15 lb., gaining more mobility and quality of life.

    I’d caution that the Health At Every Size community has its extremists. There are those who attack even the conscientious fat person who wants to lose that 10-15 lb. (because medically speaking, they really should). I agree that PUA should be more like this and less like “Seven Minute Abs”, but we’ll see our share of extremists here as well. In this case, probably more external than internal; probably people who are still not satisfied and would regard anything other than very low-status men acquiescing to their place on the present totem pole to be unacceptable.

    And for the record, there are ex-PUA’s and some of the more enlightened on the fringes of the community who already do what you and I are advocating for. I endorsed one of them in particular earlier, and Clarisse Thorn seems to have a favorable opinion of him.

    @NMMNG

    Attacking Roissy is not attacking all men.

    I already took care of this counterargument earlier, with:

    With respect to NMMNG’s claim that he wasn’t attacking “betas” in general but only Roissy, which makes it okay: Sarah Palin’s a specific person… […] Is calling her a slut (but not making a broadside against “sluts” in general) okay?

    I also said this (while responding to Dr Anonymous, who was talking about NMMNG) earlier:

    I, for one, noted your criticism and borrowed it in my last post. [b]“Ignore arguments you can’t counter, hope to bury it under newer comments” is a rhetorical tactic as common as it is dishonest.[/b] I’m glad you’re not letting them off the hook, keep at it.

    … that perfectly describes what he just did now.

    In his video, Mystery doesn’t talk about mixed signals sent by a woman when she flirt in a bar, he talks about all women

    If that’s the case, I disagree with Mystery and agree that that’s not something men should take after.

    @Dr Anonymous,

    I don’t know. Going back to my exercise/crash diet analogy, that industry is still going strong despite widespread scamming and misinformation. I’d agree that an industry cannot wholly be based on this. They must be preaching some underlying truths, and success has to be possible, in theory.

    Exercises and crash diets do actually work, after all. Competitive fighting such as MMA or wrestling, as well as method acting, wouldn’t exist if they didn’t; fighters bulk and cut dozens of pounds’ worth of fat and muscle between training and the pre-fight weigh-in, and actors can pack on or shed even more between roles. For these people, however, their bodies are their livelihoods, they can concentrate on that and nothing, and so their results cannot be replicated for normal people. The most dramatic success stories in the PUA world, certainly those of some of the cult celebrities within it, are the same. They have no outside day jobs these days and even during their pre-fame days put their entire lives on hold to go out to bars four or five times a week. That’s not doable, or desirable, for most men. If that’s all you were saying, I agree.

    @Daisy Deadhead

    Yes, and as we all know, they MUST be hot.

    Just underlining this… you all glide past this little phrase as a given– as if you are not excluding 75% of the women you meet, then wonder why you’re alone.

    Less than twelve hours. Less than twelve hours separated that comment from yours, twelve hours of mostly nighttime. Give us some time; not everyone checks sites multiple times a day.

    Also, ad hominems… don’t do them. Most of the men on this site are either married or happily single. We, as part of an increasingly self-aware generation of men, care about what happens to involuntarily celibate, virginal, or near-virginal men for the same reason that all women care about beauty standards. But trying to imply that all the men who are a part of this movement (i.e. those who disagree with you) must be a part of these groups themselves is like saying all women who complain about beauty standards must be fat or ugly.

  161. pocketjacks says:

    @Schala,

    Define normal social life? What’s wrong with preferring to be alone? What’s wrong with being asocial (ie avoiding social events as much as possible, even if you do okay while into them)?

    Nothing. An adult can make this choice for themselves.

    However, I’d argue that asocial or under-social (is that a word?) people are, on average, much less happy and are subtly oppressed in the wider world, so we should try to steer children away from this course as much as we can.

    @daelyte,

    Not to mention, people who are unusually tall may have difficulty passing through doorways, finding clothes that fit, sitting properly in a car, and can’t easily pass for normal. Should we abort basketball players?

    I see two miscommunications here. First, I never advocated abortion of affected fetuses, that was a scenario that Schala brought up. All I said was that the orientation of established should be strongly in the direction of intervention when it comes to children.

    Second, tallness is socially privileged over shortness, so it’s not the best analogy here. (Sure, there’s a tipping point beyond which excessive size makes you look goofy in the eyes of many, but still.) The better one would be excessive shortness, or some form of congenital dwarfism.

    And I’d say the same thing for dwarfism. There’s nothing wrong with being a dwarf, but if I were a practitioner faced with a dwarf child, and a treatment to eliminate their condition existed, I’d strongly recommend it – keeping in mind that I wouldn’t have the power to force anyone to do anything. Many of the concerns here are similar; dwarves have their own culture that parents may want their child to assimilate into, and that’s understandable, but I still regard that as unfair for the child. Professional prospects, social prospects, anything prospects, go down and he or she would face a much more limited future.

    As for the rest of the things you and Schala brought up… I want you to know that I’m not ignoring them, I’ve just said what I wanted to say and the two of you obviously have more experience with the topic so I don’t see the point in further tit-for-tatting. I’ll keep everything you’ve been saying in mind.

  162. Schala says:

    “This is called hyperfocus and, paradoxically, it’s often a sign of ADHD.”

    Well, I don’t have the hyperactive deal for certain. And as for ADD, I can’t be certain. I did very well in school without even trying. So did one of my brothers, and he got diagnosed with ADD and got meds for a while. When I was a kid, ADD wasn’t diagnosed that way. Neither was aspie. I was in kindergarten in 1987, and only one year unlike almost-newborns spending nearly all their time since birth there.

    ADD meds wouldn’t have helped me, the way they didn’t help my brother who just turned 21 last week. It was an hindrance. It’s always been a question of motivation, because the brains and the capacity to do it was always there. I lost motivation in 10th-11th grade, and my grades went from a 90% average to a 82% average. Note that I didn’t study. My worst subjects didn’t interest me much: Physical education, and sociologically-enclined courses, also religious courses. I did well in maths, physics, chemistry, english second language (low standards), french first language in matters of cleancut answers and less in oral and writing composition (where my problem was no orthograph, verb tenses or anything they could fault me with using a grammar dealie…it was the creation that was problematic using their creativity criterias that held no logic to me (too vague).

  163. Thomas says:

    @pocketjacks

    Ok, let me clarify. I wrote this in mind with the promises PUA coaches make to sell their products. As a reality check against the claim that some system will turn anyone into an irresistible womanizer. The good thing is you don’t have to be a womanizer to get into a relationship or have casual sex. Most men are not, I’m one of them.

  164. daelyte says:

    @pocketjacks:
    “There are those who attack even the conscientious fat person who wants to lose that 10-15 lb. (because medically speaking, they really should).”

    Exercise and eating healthy foods is what matters for health, not overall weight. Sumo wrestlers are very healthy, at least until they retire and stop following their strict (and healthy) regimen.

    “However, I’d argue that asocial or under-social (is that a word?) people are, on average, much less happy and are subtly oppressed in the wider world, so we should try to steer children away from this course as much as we can. ”

    Most introverts are happy being introverts, it’s extroverts that are unhappy with us not wanting to socialize every second of every day.

    @pocketjacks:
    “I see two miscommunications here. First, I never advocated abortion of affected fetuses, that was a scenario that Schala brought up. All I said was that the orientation of established should be strongly in the direction of intervention when it comes to children.”

    You said a cure for aspergers “should be administered to children as a matter of course. It’s saving them from what would be an unduly hard life.” A doctor pressuring worried non-autistic parents is not the same as informed consent from the child itself, and the result would be defacto genocide of the autistic population within a generation or two.

    As for intervention, it depends on how it’s defined and what the goals are. I’ve had no behavioral therapy or forced socialization, yet everyone I’ve met, initially doesn’t even believe I have aspergers, because I don’t “act autistic”. I got to read up on behavioral sciences early, did some judo for my motor coordination problems, and my parents took me out of school and homeschooled me (not as soon as I would have liked), and all of these helped me.

    The aspies that are suicidal by the age of 6, are the ones whose parents try to make them “normal” using behavioral intervention and forced socialization to try to “cure” them of their autistic behavior. It’s not for the good of the child, but because the parents are uncomfortable with it – they want their child to be like them, no matter how miserable the child is with that. Those children are the most miserable autistics when they grow up, too. Kinda like therapy for gay kids.

    Most aspies outgrow much of what is perceived as “autistic behavior” by the time they reach adulthood. A bit of social education in a more formal academic style would make a big difference, the earlier the better but it’s never too late. I haven’t seen many adult aspies object to that.

    If I had a pill that could make me temporarily non-autistic, I’d take it about every time I go out. I wouldn’t take it when I’m programming or doing other non-interactive things. As I said before, I met several people who would like the reverse – a pill that would make them autistic when doing things where hyperfocus is helpful, while retaining the option of being non-autistic in social situations such as parties, job interviews, and so on. Some people who have ADHD use their meds that way due to the side effects.

    “Second, tallness is socially privileged over shortness, so it’s not the best analogy here. (Sure, there’s a tipping point beyond which excessive size makes you look goofy in the eyes of many, but still.) The better one would be excessive shortness, or some form of congenital dwarfism.”

    Medical treatment for the inherent health and well-being of a patient is one thing, whereas doing it for the sake of social conformity is another. Which is exactly why I picked tallness, because it’s the same as dwarfism except for social bias. I considered skin color as well. Wouldn’t it be easier socially for a child to not grow up being perceived as “black”?

    I say if society is broken, fix society.

    That said, I’m not against designer babies in general, or even widespread genetic engineering for the improvement of society as a whole. I just think it’s important to understand that there are always trade-offs, so when trying to improve people we have to ask ourselves “better for what”?

    “I’d strongly recommend it – keeping in mind that I wouldn’t have the power to force anyone to do anything.”

    When a doctor strongly recommends something for their children, most parents go along with it without questioning it unless they happen to already know better. The child rarely gets a say.

    “As for the rest of the things you and Schala brought up… I want you to know that I’m not ignoring them, I’ve just said what I wanted to say and the two of you obviously have more experience with the topic so I don’t see the point in further tit-for-tatting. I’ll keep everything you’ve been saying in mind.”

    I didn’t get the impression you were ignoring us, in fact I find you did a good job of discussing it from your point of view without it turning into a flame war (as touchy subjects often do). I gained a better understanding of your point of view, and refined my explanations a bit.

  165. dungone says:

    @daelyte, for what it’s worth that whole entire hypothetical scenario is a really tough call. Most [rational] people wouldn’t have a problem giving babies a measles vaccine or having them go through open heart surgery to save their little infant lives. If you wait until adulthood to make certain decisions then it’s already too late: you’re dead. With something that is not life-threatening but nevertheless can’t be held off until the age of consent, the dilemma gets muddied. I’m going to just say, at that point it has to be the parents’ call. Because the decision has to be made then and there and no one else can make it. That’s the only reason why.

  166. daelyte says:

    @dungone:
    For things that are not life-threatening but can’t be held off until the age of consent, of course it has to be the parents’ call, but they should also be made aware of what adults who have the same condition think of the treatment, what the child can potentially lose by receiving said treatment, and what other alternatives are available.

    I think few parents would choose for their children to be blind – even if both parents are themselves blind. Same goes for hypothyroidism, or chronic depression. While some parents would want their children to be deaf or dwarfs like them, I think most non-deaf and non-dwarf parents would still opt for treatment. But for some conditions, when exposed to the advantages and not just the horror stories, more parents may choose other options.

    From another angle, if deaf parents want their child to be deaf like them, would it be ethical for a doctor to alter the child’s DNA to make it deaf? Is it the parents’ call?

  167. Pingback: Monday Roundup | No, Seriously, What About Teh Menz?

  168. titab says:

    I bought it as soon as you suggested it but had to delay my reading for working reasons. I am regretting starting it today, just before going to bed; I just don’t want to stop reading it.

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