Open Thread, Good Advice Edition

This Open Thread has been brought to you by Drag Queen Mercutio.

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108 Responses to Open Thread, Good Advice Edition

  1. I’d like to take this opportunity to thank some of the more strongly feminist commenters who participate here like AB, .f, Ampersand, Blackhumor, etc.

    Of course we don’t agree often on many of the nitty-gritty details, but I appreciate your input and respectfulness. The ever-increasing hostility within the “mainstream” men’s rights movement has made it all the more apparent to me that dignified discourse when talking about men’s issues is desperately needed and I appreciate every feminist who cares enough about men’s issues to talk about them in the public forum in a respectful, generous way.

    Although I’ve always cared about women’s issues – and, admittedly, it was my concern about men’s issues that brought me online to talk about gender in the first place – I want people to know that it was through honest, dignified conversations about men’s issues online that I grew to have even more empathy for women’s issues. I, of course, only speak for myself, but I’d like to think I’m not the only one.

    To keep the conversation flowing: What’s a fact about yourself that people on here would never guess about you?
    Mine is that I’m actually very funny. That’s a hard thing to “prove,” but on my last performance evaluation my supervisor said my “sense of humor brings levity even during extremely stressful situations and is a ‘serious’ boost to morale.” In college I was told by multiple professors that I should pursue comedy writing as a career.

  2. elementary_watson says:

    Okay, I’ll use this new open thread to talk about the upcoming Adam Sandler movie “That’s My Boy”.

    On imdb, there are two trailers for the movie, one redband (the one on the right), one green band.

    Watch them both, start with the redband one.

    Seen the redband trailer? Yeah, sure looks like Sandler was a horrible father to his little son back then, right?

    Now, watch the more kid-friendly greenband trailer …

    I am somehow at a loss of words for my reaction to the fact that the statutory rape of a boy, which seems to be a pivotal plot element of the movie, made it into the kid-friendly trailer, while being left out of the redband trailer … And damnit, the way they’re gonna handle the statutory rape seems to be extremely dire … Not to mention that the statutory rapist is apparently, according to imdb, played by Susan Sarandon, so you pretty much can expect *her* to be the voice of reason here (if Sarandon doesn’t totally break out of her usual role type) … And how *did* they get Sarandon for such a role in such a movie? (Yeah, I know, same way they got Pacino for “Jack and Jill”)

  3. makomk says:

    Bleh, it really is impossible to get away from gender issues anywhere. Was reading up on the current unobtainable, shiny, incredibly-hyped gadget amongst geeks here in the UK, and… well, it turns out that not only did one of their supporters “joke” on the official forum about tying someone who complained about the hype to a lamppost naked, and not only did the forum moderators know about this and consider it acceptable (as demonstrated by them leaving it and deleting a comment by the target of the “joke” complaining about it), their apparent PR head honcho not only considers this OK but banned its target from commenting for daring to suggest this was in any way related to rape.

    A nice place on a deserted island feels like such a wonderful idea sometimes.

  4. f. says:

    High five EE. I’ll admit that sometimes it isn’t very easy around here, but I do my best to participate. This thing is too important to leave it to the more vicious influences around the internet. I just hope that there’s a better future to be built, if we all work together.

  5. EE, I notice who you leave out. 😉 I will try not to take it personally, even though I already have.

    I’m too old to post here anyway.

    Speaking of which– I lost my old friend this week, which has really upset me, unexpectedly:
    http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2012/03/just-dont-put-it-off-okay.html

    (Yes, very GOOD old-lady-advice in that post.)

    And that, in turn, made me think of the segregated swimming pool we attended as kids:
    http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2012/03/segregation-begins-at-home.html

    … which made me realize, it isn’t called segregation now, but the results are the same.

    And I need more “likes” on my radio show page, according to my producer. Facebook “likes” means you EXIST or something:

    http://www.facebook.com/TheDaisyDeadheadShow

    “You like me, you really like me!”–something another old lady said once, a long time ago. (Wait, no you don’t.. what the hell am I saying? As we say in transcription, scratch that.)

  6. Whoops. Missed the new open thread. o.o

    Hey all, HuffPo had another post I thought was relevant to this site’s interests. It’s about mass incarceration and specifically compares it to a horrendous disease. I endorse it.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-froomkin/incarceration-rates_b_1332476.html

  7. Also… was Mercutio a Drag Queen? I thought maybe he was just a transvestite.

  8. Okay. ‘Just’ kind of implies some kind of sliding scale, there.

    “Also… was Mercutio a Drag Queen? I thought maybe he was a transvestite.”

    Fixed, and sorry for all the posts.

  9. f. says:

    This is pretty much the worst – a 17 year old boy gets shot in the chest by a Neighborhood Watch captain, on his way back from the convenience store: http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida-boy-killed-neighborhood-watch-seeks-arrest-044537742.html

    Without waiting for police to arrive, Crump said, Zimmerman confronted Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk near his home. By the time police got there, Trayvon was dead of a single gunshot to the chest.
    “What do the police find in his pocket? Skittles,” Crump said. “A can of Arizona ice tea in his jacket pocket and Skittles in his front pocket for his brother Chad.”
    Zimmerman could not be reached for comment on Wednesday evening at a phone number listed for him on the community’s newsletter.
    Crump said the family was concerned that police might decide to consider the shooting as self defense, and that police have ignored the family’s request for a copy of the original 911 call, which they think will shed light on the incidents.
    “If the 911 protocol across the country held to form here, they told him not to get involved. He disobeyed that order,” said Ryan Julison, a spokesman for the family.
    “He (Zimmerman) didn’t have to get out of his car,” said Crump, who has prepared a public records lawsuit to file on Thursday if the family doesn’t get the 911 tape. “If he never gets out of his car, there is no reason for self-defense. Trayvon only has skittles. He has the gun.”

    This kid’s family… I can’t even imagine. He was just walking through his own neighborhood, and was killed for appearing to be “a suspicious person”.

  10. bttf4444 says:

    I have to say, I really enjoy this blog. I’ve been actively involved in the feminist community for about a year, now. I do get uncomfortable with the way the mainstream feminist community tends to gloss over how the kyriarchy also affects some – and, in some cases, even excuses the male bashing. I’m firmly of the belief that two wrongs don’t make a right. Yes, for the most part, men do still have a more powerful influence in today’s society – but, still, men who don’t conform to the “alpha-male” machismo ideal are also harmed by sexism. Also, the whole anti-pink stance of certain feminists make feel a little uncomfortable – since I’m a feminist who loves the colour pink. In addition, I also support the right of men and boys to like pink and other traditional feminine stuff.

    Now, my question for everyone: What are your thoughts on http://www.pinkstinks.org.uk? Particularly, this following article: http://www.pinkstinks.org.uk/cgblog/20/25/What-about-boys-Part-2.html

    Personally, I disagree with the article – and I really think it has a femmephobia tone to it.

  11. @f

    I live in Florida and sometimes it feels like versions of this story are on some kind of depressing playlist that keeps getting looped here. It’s so sad.

  12. The Kings Raven says:

    @makomk

    I have to say I don’t see how that is related to rape. From the link you posted he mentions “being stripped naked” but nothing else. I’m pretty sure it requires more than nudity to qualify as rape. Penetration or envelopment for example.

  13. Rob Allen says:

    This is a few weeks old, but still deserves a mention:

    “Paul Cornell, noted genre author and TV writer, recently announced that he seeks convention panel parity and will take personal action to that end:
    ‘If I’m on, at any convention this year, a panel that doesn’t have a 50/50 gender split (I’ll settle for two out of five), I’ll hop off that panel, and find a woman to take my place. ‘”

    http://www.paulcornell.com/2012/02/panel-parity.html

    http://www.metafilter.com/112972/The-Cornell-Ratio

    http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/02/the-cornell-ratio-should-sff-convention-panels-be-5050-male-and-female

  14. @bttf4444

    Thanks for linking that article! It made me think.

    I agree that some of the gender movements get so caught up with cheering trend-breakers that they start dumping on trend followers. If you constantly cheer ‘atypical’ women then the ‘typical’ woman might think feminism isn’t for her, even though she may be suffering the highest number of ‘typical’ women’s problems that feminism was supposed to be solving. >.<

    There's some femmephobia there. A legitimate concern for a socially constructed self-defeating gender identity doesn't really excuse glib attacks on girliness. I don't want to yell at the site too much though, because femmephobia is just the fear/hate of the feminine, and that's not as objectively bad as sexism, racism, or the like. It's kind of like hating, I dunno, conservatism, post-modernism, or musicals. I don't want to constantly berate Ihatemusicals.com because they're keeping themselves to the right venue. It's when some potential employer or judge finds out you like musicals and starts turning you down or jacking up the sentencing because they think musicals suck that the real sin gets committed.

    I don't think I agree with the end conclusion of the article, but I actually agree with a lot of its interior assertions and I think it was very well written. It was very empathetic of the author to begin with the understanding that boys have their own pressure in gender conforming before going on to 'other gender conforming isn't better.' Sexism can hurt the people who enjoy, or just conform to, their assigned roles, not just the people who fight them.

    With the producers of products, I try to have a little sympathy for capitalism and assume that they're giving their audience what they want, but I know that laziness sets in too. I also know that consumers will overconsume and which means that just as too much sugar, caffeine, alcohol, etc. can be bad for the body, maybe too much pink/blue, dark/bright, sparkle/slime, love/violence, cleavage-sporting superheroines in heels/shirtless slash-bait vampires, or whatever, could be bad for the psyche.

    My big disagreement is, Pinkstinks' choice of boy is going to get plenty of adversity with his kinds of choices, so I don't think its his parents responsiblity to try to moderate his desires in an instance like that. His mother said that she warned him about everything that might happen, and the flack he might catch, then protected him from the worst of it, which I think was her greatest responsibility. Meanwhile, if your daughter asks to be a "ballerina kitty princess" for halloween (like mine did), maybe just suggesting ballerina kitty ninja, or ballerina dinosaur princess, or superhero kitty princess to see if she's really set on that or just slamming together images she sees all the time and isn't considering the possibilities. (I think we ended at ballerina kitty ninja, actually.)

  15. coffee_queen says:

    EE and bttf, your posts are really inspiring. 🙂

    This blog is amazing and wonderful, and such a relief from the hard-core extremism that can accompany debates on gender. I saw a supposedly egalitarian blog bashing Sandra Fluke for testifying for birth control coverage, and I’ve seen feminist blogs that shame male rape victims, so coming here and seeing posts that affirm the dignity of menfolk and womenfolk is truly refreshing and appreciated.
    EE, I love how you say that exploring male gender issues has increased your compassion for women’s gender issues. For me, I started exploring women’s gender issues and developed a deeply abiding interest in men’s gender issues along the way. 🙂
    Anyway, love this blog lots. Happiness is seeing new posts from the bloggers in my inbox. 🙂

  16. makomk says:

    Well, it should at least potentially count as sexual assault (which said PR head honcho insisted it mustn’t be compared in any way, shape or form in her justification for banning him) and as part of rape culture. It wouldn’t actually be rape, but very few people who’ve had harassing comments of this kind aimed at them seem to make that distinction.

  17. bttf4444 says:

    “I agree that some of the gender movements get so caught up with cheering trend-breakers that they start dumping on trend followers. If you constantly cheer ‘atypical’ women then the ‘typical’ woman might think feminism isn’t for her, even though she may be suffering the highest number of ‘typical’ women’s problems that feminism was supposed to be solving. >.<"

    Now that you've mentioned it, this does sound a lot like the "hipster" attitude towards anything mainstream – and, in some cases, people who like mainstream stuff.

    Now, I'm gonna be honest and say that I probably have the same attitude towards pop music – as some other feminists have towards the colour pink. I'm not against individual women or girls who like pop music – and most certainly not against individual men or boys that do. I do get annoyed, though, by the attitude that women are supposed to like pop music – while rock music is for men.

    Replacing pop with pink, I definitely do understand the legitimate concerns with marketing pink exclusively for women and girls, and not offering much other colour options for women and girls. And, yeah, the whole "princess culture" is getting way out of hand – although I don't agree with throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

    I guess, with regards for the consumerist industry in general, there needs to be more diversity for everyone – and they need to stop splitting things up into "for boys" and "for girls".

    Regarding the one question that was posed (on Huffington Post, if I recall correctly), there is this question: Is it sexist to offer pink Legos? My answer to that is "no". It's not the pink Legos per se that's the problem. It's only when they're being marketed heavily to girls, and being denied to boys, that it becomes a problem. I see no reason why they can't just throw in pink Legos with all the other colours.

  18. AB says:

    @EasilyEnthused:

    I’d like to take this opportunity to thank some of the more strongly feminist commenters who participate here like AB, .f, Ampersand, Blackhumor, etc.

    Of course we don’t agree often on many of the nitty-gritty details, but I appreciate your input and respectfulness. The ever-increasing hostility within the “mainstream” men’s rights movement has made it all the more apparent to me that dignified discourse when talking about men’s issues is desperately needed and I appreciate every feminist who cares enough about men’s issues to talk about them in the public forum in a respectful, generous way.

    Thank you 🙂 Though I’m not entirely sure why you’re calling me feminist, or respectful and generous for that matter. Lately, I’ve been semi-permanently pissed off by the attitude of most male posters here, and I certainly don’t feel very generous.

    To keep the conversation flowing: What’s a fact about yourself that people on here would never guess about you?

    I don’t recall if I’ve said it before, but I’m a pretty big Formula 1 enthusiast, and I don’t think it’s what people expect of me. My own uncle didn’t even believe it until I made a several minutes long speech about why F1 races should be commercial free. I also listen to AC/DC, and Finnish folk metal, which seems to surprise some people (especially since most don’t even know the latter exists).

  19. Why is femmephobia or masculinephobia, automatically bad? If something women or men do, sucks, we need to get rid of it. The question is, therefore: does it suck? Can we modify the behavior so it doesn’t suck, or keep the parts we like and transform the parts we don’t? Etc.

    It seems anything femme is being given a special pass. Why? If men have to stop fighting and farting and doing the guy-things we have deemed unacceptable, it seems women should be expected to do the same.

    If we are feminists, we should WANT to do the same.

    This is one of those sticking points of Second vs Third Wave. Third Wave wants to have its cake and eat it too. No, we can’t tell boys to stop being bullies, unless we also stop cowering and being afraid of bullies. Yin/Yang; you can’t have one without the other. We can’t say “women shouldn’t expect engagement rings” unless men flat-ass stop buying them. Period. Etc.

    And for some reason, I am cast as this big meanie for saying what I think is fairly obvious and sensible. (?)

  20. ollie says:

    Daisy, I think the idea is not that we accept unpleasant behaviours just because women do them. I think the idea is that we don’t automatically denigrate *any* behaviours, unpleasant or otherwise, just because women do them. (I’m using “women” here to include any women-identified or femme-identified/behaving folk, although there are some complex layers of sexism/femmephobia in here for sure)

    Taking your examples, it’s not that we want men to stop farting, but we’d like it to be ok for women to fart too! And fighting, well, we kinda agree that fighting is objectively unpleasant, yes? Unless it’s nice fighting like judo 🙂

    I also don’t see why we can’t “tell boys to stop being bullies, unless we also stop cowering and being afraid of bullies”. Surely “they” should stop first, and then “we” can stop cowering? Or do “we” just suddenly decide that bullying isn’t actually unpleasant or intimidating? Also, how did bullying become something that boys do, here? People of all genders are capable of bullying others of all genders, and yes, this includes girls bullying boys.

  21. Xakudo says:

    @EE:

    What’s a fact about yourself that people on here would never guess about you?

    Hmm… good question. I make my primary living as an artist, and yet I’m somewhat anti-copyright/intellectual property. This often throws people for a loop when related discussions come up in real life.

  22. Danny says:

    Daisy:
    Why? If men have to stop fighting and farting and doing the guy-things we have deemed unacceptable, it seems women should be expected to do the same.
    I think this might happen because unlike what ollie says about stopping the behaviors not the people, people do indeed come to identify the behaviors with the people to the point that they actually do come down on boys in general instead of coming down on the behavior.

    Take DV for example. Sure most people will say that “violence is bad, no matter what” but if that’s the case then why do people get in an uproar about a man abusing a woman but then dismiss a woman abusing a man with “but that’s different”? And vola we go from “DV is bad” to “DV is bad when men do it”. Stop men from being abusive and all will be okay right?

  23. Danny says:

    Hit “post” too soon by mistake.
    EE:
    To keep the conversation flowing: What’s a fact about yourself that people on here would never guess about you?
    Oh I’m terrible at these things….

  24. @ bttf4444
    Now that you’ve mentioned it, this does sound a lot like the “hipster” attitude towards anything mainstream – and, in some cases, people who like mainstream stuff.

    Ha! I never thought about it like that, but that sounds about right.

    Actually, I agree with that whole comment, espescially the last half.

  25. makomk says:

    @Danny: Sure most people will say that “violence is bad, no matter what” but if that’s the case then why do people get in an uproar about a man abusing a woman but then dismiss a woman abusing a man with “but that’s different”?

    Not only that, but you get the same kind of uproar about a man hitting a woman he’s not in any kind of intimate relationship with. For example, a few years ago there was enough of an uproar about Jersey Shore (a reality TV show) showing a man hitting a female cast member in a bar that the TV channel was forced to pull that footage from the episode after an online campaign. There was no kind of relationship between the two – it was bar violence over a supposedly stolen drink, not domestic violence – but the reaction was exactly the same as if it had been DV.

    Arguably, there might not be an anti-domestic violence movement, just an anti-violence against women movement that calls itself that because the main kind of violence against women is domestic.

  26. Jared says:

    @AB “Finnish folk metal,”

    I listen to Korpiklaani and Finntroll, but Korpiklaani is my favourite. Who do you like?

    As for things folks might not know about me (aside from also listening to Finnish Folk metal), I write write science fiction and fantasy short stories and have had some success getting them published.

  27. bttf4444 says:

    Mostly, I’m tired of all the pink bashing from certain feminists. There is nothing inherently wrong with the colour pink. It’s just a colour, like any other. Pink is not the enemy. Stereotypes are, Limitation is. Telling women they can *only* like pink is. Telling men they *can’t* like pink is.

    The ironic thing about the whole pink debate is this: In general, men who bash pink are certainly *not* feminists. In fact, they’re usually just the opposite. They usually bash pink, *because* women like pink – and it’s “uncool” for men to like things then women like. So, when certain feminists *also* start bashing pink, it makes them strange bedfellows with the male chauvinists that bash pink. Of course, there’s certainly nothing wrong with not liking pink. When you start act as if pink is, essentially, the root of all evil – then that’s when it becomes a problem.

    On the other end of the spectrum, there are also some feminists that are against hard rock and heavy metal – and that *also* is problematic. It’s bad enough that there are men who like hard rock and heavy metal that think women shouldn’t listen to it – or, at least, that women who listen to it can’t be “serious” fans. Now, it’s not to discount that fact that misogyny definitely does exist in hard rock and heavy metal – but that is, by no means, exclusive to hard rock and heavy metal. Misogyny even exists in top forty pop, the music that women are expected to like.

    I think, in both cases, it’s a case of not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. There’s nothing objectively bad about pink or about hard rock and heavy metal. It’s only when society *makes* them into bad thing, that it becomes a problem.

  28. Danny says:

    makomk:
    Not only that, but you get the same kind of uproar about a man hitting a woman he’s not in any kind of intimate relationship with. For example, a few years ago there was enough of an uproar about Jersey Shore (a reality TV show) showing a man hitting a female cast member in a bar that the TV channel was forced to pull that footage from the episode after an online campaign.
    And oddly enough I have never actually seen the hit, on any mainstream sites mind you. Every single time I’ve seen it the clip would pause just before the hit. Contrast that to Amber Portwood when she was hitting the dad of her child on Teen Mom. NBC, CNN, etc…suddenly had no problem constantly looping the hits on national TV. And both Teen Mom and Jersey Shore are MTV shows.

    There was no kind of relationship between the two – it was bar violence over a supposedly stolen drink, not domestic violence – but the reaction was exactly the same as if it had been DV.
    But of course the angle ended up being “its about men hitting women” rather than overreacting over drinks.

    Arguably, there might not be an anti-domestic violence movement, just an anti-violence against women movement that calls itself that because the main kind of violence against women is domestic.
    If that were the case I would have no problem. But the problem is folks of that streak will in one breath say that all violence is bad and then excuse the violence women commit and a lot of the violence committed against men (will I think most of them have finally come to admit that DV happens in man/man relationships…).

  29. Ollie: Or do “we” just suddenly decide that bullying isn’t actually unpleasant or intimidating?

    Its called arming oneself. 🙂 (Hey, this is the south, okay?) Once you do, you will notice that you actually ACT differently. I suppose martial arts might do the same, but I am too lazy for that.

    Also, how did bullying become something that boys do, here? People of all genders are capable of bullying others of all genders, and yes, this includes girls bullying boys.

    It was just an easy example of the yin/yang.

    A long time ago, I had a cat that started slinking around and acting like the proverbial “scaredy cat” — and the other cats would perk up and attack him whereas they had ignored him before. It was as if his slinking around, made them want to attack him, somehow made him look weak and attracted their negative attention. I never forgot that, and I started wondering if people are similar.

    I remember deciding *I* would stop slinking around and attracting undue attention with my fear. (This had nothing to do with gender, at the time, I meant in general.)

    Of course there are female bullies, but we need to understand the bullying from girls is usually “the close-out”, the gossip, creating cliques, etc, all of which I find far worse than physical bullying, although most women seem to disagree with me. But yes, these particular definitions are important to challenge as well.

    Thank you for taking my comment seriously and replying. I seem to be getting “the close-out” myself around here.

  30. bttf444There’s nothing objectively bad about pink or about hard rock and heavy metal. It’s only when society *makes* them into bad thing, that it becomes a problem.

    Of course, I agree, I like all of these things.

    But I think orange doesn’t get any respect. 😦

  31. @ Daisy Deadhead

    Why is femmephobia or masculinephobia automatically bad?

    I don’t think they are unless you’re making bad decisions based on them.

    I do still have a little confusion regarding the terms, myself. For example: If I think doilies, pastels, lace, ruffles, chintz, bows, and such are terrible decorating decisions but the largest category of women thought they were great decorating decisions, am I being femmephobic when I criticize that sort of decorating scheme in my blog/tweets/article/movie/whatever? Or does my dislike of those things have to be based on the fact/perception that women like them and I think that’s why those things suck?

    I personally don’t think you need to have malignant intent, or tie it all directly to women, before the word applies. I think its fair to call a magazine femmephobic if they’re always dropping masculine decorating schemes in their “Hot” lists and dropping feminine ones in the “Not” lists. They still haven’t really done anything wrong because, y’know, freedom of speech and all. Plus, trying to please all audiences and never upset anyone is one way to get a horrible, boring slice of mediocrity.

    Where I see the real badness would be if I go to nonspecific decorating forums and conventions and just blithely slam femme-deco, or go to femme-deco blogs to troll and whine about their lack of mascu-deco stuff, or start implying that femme-deco enjoying men are all gay, or femme-deco women are all vapid conformists, say I’d never hire someone for a non-decorating profession if they like femme-deco, and so on.

    With an objectively bad action, like hitting, I do have to say that it’s probably best not to worry about tying the action to type of people. You don’t have to stick your head in the sand; if women are less likely to spay their cats, then your cat spaying campaign can target women to a level that reflects the real percentages. But if “Bad thing: Not spaying your cats,” becomes “Feminine thing: Not spaying your cats,” suddenly you can get full-fleged misogynistic jokers ranting about how women are the number one cause of cat death and they shouldn’t be allowed to be vets or something, when the whole original cause of the stat was maybe just that women were more likely to own a cat in the first place.

  32. @ Daisy

    But I think orange doesn’t get any respect

    Well, I’m always glad they didn’t say ‘banana.’

  33. bttf4444 says:

    I do like orange, both the colour and the fruit. When looking at certain shades of orange, it makes me feel hungry for an orange. 😉

  34. superglucose says:

    “What’s a fact about yourself that people on here would never guess about you?”

    I’m really mellow and hate confrontation.

  35. BlackHumor says:

    @EE: D’aww! Thank you! 😀

    @Daisy: The reason femmephobia (&c) is automatically bad is because it shames behaviors because they’re female, which is always the wrong reason. This is entirely independent of whether those behaviors are actually useful at all or not.

  36. elementary_watson says:

    @BlackHumor: That is what I call the “Ali G. Gambit”: Do something obnoxious, and if someone critizes you for doing this obnoxious thing, tie it to some part of your identity and go “is it coz I is black?”, thereby sidestepping the actual issue and casting an -ism accusation on the annoyed person.

    @Daisy: I largely agree with your assessment that in many feminist circles, criticising “male behaviour” is par of the course while there is simply no “female behaviour” that may ever be questioned, as the assumption that there *is* some bad attitude common among women amounts to misogyny. I just wouldn’t put fearfulness among those traits, or rather, I really dislike claiming “we can’t expect abusers to stop abusing if we don’t also expect abused people to stand up for themselves”, as those two statements are in no way equal.

    It is morally neutral to become insecure in a situation one percieves as threatening; it is morally *bad* to bully someone who shows insecurity, and the victim’s insecurity neither excuses nor invites any bullying behaviour.

    BTW, I haven’t seen that much masculinephobia among feminists; the worst behaviour traditionally ascribed to men often gets lauded when displayed by a woman …

  37. JohnInLondon says:

    I live in London, England and I’m new to this blog. I’m fascinated by gender issues generally, but blogs such as these also show the yawning gulf between US and UK attitudes to gender and sex in particular and to life in general. Two nations divided by a common language, indeed…
    So ta very much to the contributors.

  38. jesus_marley says:

    On a completely unrelated note I would just like to give a well deserved thank you to Mr. Chris Routly who started the change.org petition against the Huggies “Ultimate Test” campaign. It would appear that the issues we collectively had were heard and Kimberley-Clarke is making changes. Details are below in Chris’ Blog for those interested.

    http://www.daddydoctrines.com/2012/03/09/an-open-letter-to-the-supporters-of-my-huggies-petition/

  39. AB says:

    @Jared:

    I listen to Korpiklaani and Finntroll, but Korpiklaani is my favourite. Who do you like?

    I use Finntroll to get myself used to more extreme metal, in the hopes that someday I’ll be able to listen to black metal and (non-melodic) death metal without feeling like someone is drilling through my brain. There’s some good music out there, but it takes time to get used to the style.

    I also really like Turisas, especially because they’re one of the few bands who seem to be equally good live. And (like Korpiklaani), they don’t seem to take themselves seriously. Watch from around 3.15 here and tell me you wouldn’t have had a blast: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldva3dA8yGc

  40. marc2020 says:

    I will admit that I personally I wouldn’t care if the whole concepts of femininity and masculinity disappeared over night but since that’s an impossibility I guess we just have to power through as it were.

    It does somewhat baffle me when I read feminist’s defending trad femininity as I thought that feminism was all about questioning power structures and breaking down stereotypes (I hope that didn’t come off as me saying feminism YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG! by the way). I do get allot of Daisy’s critiques of the third wave its allot like that whole mess that went down on the good men project recently with Tom Matlack’s ridicules “Being a dude is a good thing” article.

  41. Jared says:

    Turisas kicks arse, that was a great video, thanks!

    “I use Finntroll to get myself used to more extreme metal,”

    I did that to myself by accident with Eluveitie, but I’m not quite up to death metal yet 🙂

  42. bttf4444 says:

    It’s not so much a case of defending the *idea* of traditional femininity – but, rather, defending the right of a women (or man) to like things that are considered to be traditionally feminine.

    I definitely do understand the frustration of the advertising people saying that women *have* to like pink, if you yourself don’t like pink. What I don’t like is the idea that I *personally* like the colour pink somehow makes me a “bad” feminist. I guess I feel the same way about pop music, as some other feminists feel about pink. I don’t that we women are socialized to fancy top forty pop, while hard rock and heavy metal is marketed towards men. Still, if individual feminists like pop music – than that’s their choice.

  43. marc2020 says:

    I guess I just get tired with all the longwined justifications for liking things you know, I have an attitude of if I like something I like it and you all got to hell if it douen’t fit in with what want me to be like.

    I shouldn’t need to defend my love of Lady Gaga, MLP FIM, American Football, Heavy Metal, Beer and the films of Audry Hepburn to anyone. Its not inherantly good or evil its just stuff I like.

    Like James Dean once said “I refuse to go through life with one hand tide behind my back”

  44. makomk says:

    Danny: Contrast that to Amber Portwood when she was hitting the dad of her child on Teen Mom. NBC, CNN, etc…suddenly had no problem constantly looping the hits on national TV.

    Ah yeah, she was the one that repeatedly beat up her kid’s dad on camera in front of the kid, got a two year suspended sentence for it, kept full custody of said kid, and continued to get paid huge sums of money by MTV. Admittedly they didn’t show the worst of it but still – the fact there was a distinct lack of outrage over MTV paying money to an abuser and profiting from videos of her abuse is impressive.

  45. debaser71 says:

    elementary_watson…”That is what I call the “Ali G. Gambit”” Other people have called that the “Sea Monkey Fallacy”.

    “It’s a nifty, sleight-of-mind trick that lets me get away with begging the question, setting up a straw man and launching an ad hominem attack, all while looking like I’m defending decency. Heck, I may even fool myself.

    If you’d like to try my trick, here are the steps: (1) Make a claim and apply it to a worthy cause. (2) Should people challenge assumptions underlying the claim, accuse them of opposing the cause. (3). Call them names and encourage others to jump on your bandwagon Thus it will make short work of any opponents. Not only that. You will emerge feeling validated, even justified, eager and ready to launch the process again. And again”

    http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1591-how-to-sabotage-skepticism-from-the-inside-entwine-the-claim-with-the-cause.html

  46. This pop music discussion reminds me: Beatles vs Stones. What you never hear these days is, the Beatles were supposed to be for the girls, Stones were supposed to be for the guys. I assume that “gender-division” started because the Beatles were such teenybopper idols, the Stones so overtly sexual.

    That whole divide has since evaporated, since we all know fans of all sexes like both… but really, for a long time it was regarded as either butch or slutty for a girl to like the Stones. The advent of Glam Rock totally demolished those categories, when a “gay” band (not all gay, of course) sounded a great deal like the Stones (New York Dolls, one of whom was IN MY LIVING ROOM).

    PS: No, I didn’t say all this just to tell you one of the Dolls was in my house, but no mention of the Dolls goes by without me mentioning that Jerry Nolan was IN MY LIVING ROOM, LOL. It was one of the high point of my life!

  47. bttf4444 says:

    Nickelback and Creed seem to be two of the rock bands that have a larger female fan base. This seems to be because the bands’ mellower songs actually get airplay on the pop radio stations, while many hardcore rock fans hate those bands.

    There are definitely more of us females that like hard rock and heavy metal than society really gives us credit for – but it still seems like, for some reason, many women are discouraged from liking those genres. Now, I understand that some of them might be feminists that don’t like them – due to the fact that “misogyny” does exist in those genres. I’m sure that’s not most of them, though. Many of them seem to be feminine women that generally tend towards feminine things. Perhaps, it starts out as kids – and they’re watching cartoons. During commercial break, the adverts aimed towards girls tend to have a pop music soundtrack (and a light female voice) – while adverts aimed towards boys tend to have a rock/metal soundtrack (and a deep male voice). Also, hard rock radio stations tend to focus primarily on their male listeners – seeming forgetting that women listen to their station, too.

    While there are definitely lots of men who dream of dating a woman who shares their tastes in rock/metal – there are others that act act as if listening to rock/metal makes them less feminine, as well as some who refuse to believe that they can be serious fans. This is why you have communities like Metallichicks. Oh, yeah, and if you think any of the men in the rock/metal bands are hot – than you’re obviously not a True Fan™. After all, as we all know, it’s scientifically impossible for women to find a member of a band to be hot and also like the music.

    Of course, metalhead elitists will deride bands they don’t consider to be True Metal™ as “pussy”, “sissy”, “gay”, “their balls haven’t dropped”, etc – which falls under femmephobia, homophobia, gender role enforcement, and misogyny. And, yeah, if you’re a woman who enjoys a band like Avenged Sevenfold – then you’re pretty much screwed. You get people telling you that you’re unfeminine for liking hard rock, and you get people telling you that you aren’t a True Metal Fan™. Therefore, you should stop being a “poser” – and stick to listening to pop music, which is what all women truly fancy.

    BTW, I am not bashing pop music – or people that listen to it. I just don’t like that it’s the music that women are supposed to like. Same as how some other feminists feel about pink.

  48. bttf4444 says:

    BTW, here’s a similar article on this issue: http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2008/12/now_thats_what

  49. Schala says:

    “Of course, metalhead elitists will deride bands they don’t consider to be True Metal™ as “pussy”, “sissy”, “gay”, “their balls haven’t dropped”, etc – which falls under femmephobia, homophobia, gender role enforcement, and misogyny. And, yeah, if you’re a woman who enjoys a band like Avenged Sevenfold – then you’re pretty much screwed. You get people telling you that you’re unfeminine for liking hard rock, and you get people telling you that you aren’t a True Metal Fan™. Therefore, you should stop being a “poser” – and stick to listening to pop music, which is what all women truly fancy.”

    You should ditch the people who think in so much black and white, without looking back, without thinking twice.

    Have better things to do in life than to worry about how some people will perceive your social cred relative to your actual interests. Just like what you like, and that’s it.

  50. Schala says:

    To ad to the post I just made:

    If I was in Big Bang Theory, I wouldn’t care, one little tiny bit, that someone found my (heavy) videogame-playing to be “lame”, immature, childish or a “huge waste of time”*. I just wouldn’t care for that person’s opinion, at the very least on that matter, and if they do have such a lower opinion of me due to my perfectly acceptable (that don’t harm, maim or neglect anyone) hobby, I would have a much lower opinion of them, as well, for even thinking that openly to my face.

    I wouldn’t try what Leonard has tried, which is apparently to downplay all his geekness in the hopes that it won’t be too “disturbing, childish and loser” for girlfriends like Priya and Penny. I’d dish Priya in a heartbeat, and tell Penny that I’m as interested in her reality shows or shoe names as she is in my videogames, so there.

  51. Schala says:

    I meant ‘ditch’, not ‘dish.

    and my * was about explaining how every single hobby, including hobbies that amount to actual money-making (like playing the stock trades on your free time, or playing golf with big bosses) are STILL huge wastes of time.

  52. Schala says:

    Keeping with Big Bang Theory, I admire Sheldon’s sense of pride in being a geek, and in what he does. Without the need for the oversized sense of ego or need to control everyone else (I still like the character a lot).

  53. marc2020 says:

    @bttf4444 That whole “true fan” thing is such bullshit

  54. marc2020 says:

    “I wouldn’t try what Leonard has tried, which is apparently to downplay all his geekness in the hopes that it won’t be too “disturbing, childish and loser” for girlfriends like Priya and Penny. I’d dish Priya in a heartbeat, and tell Penny that I’m as interested in her reality shows or shoe names as she is in my videogames, so there.”

    @Schala The thing about Lenard as I see it is he doesn’t want his interests to define who he is, I don’t think its necessarily about him wanting to distance himself from the stuff he likes rather he just wants some perspective that although this stuff is cool there’s more to him than that.

  55. Schala says:

    “@Schala The thing about Lenard as I see it is he doesn’t want his interests to define who he is, I don’t think its necessarily about him wanting to distance himself from the stuff he likes rather he just wants some perspective that although this stuff is cool there’s more to him than that.”

    I dunno. It doesn’t look to me like he wants to nuance it, but that he actually believes the crap thing that says geekness is loser-culture. At some point he doesn’t care, but much of the time, he downplays his actual interest to appear ‘more cool’ to non-geeks.

    This looks to me more like supplicating, to which Sheldon is the exact opposite. He won’t apologize for liking text videogames. He won’t apologize for having a Star Trek costume. He won’t apologize for liking World of Warcraft more than watching some dumb TV show about attention-deprived people making fools of themselves for money. He won’t apologize because he sees *nothing wrong with liking what he does* (unlike Leonard).

  56. Schala says:

    Geekness doesn’t define me, but I’m not ashamed of it. Transness doesn’t define me, and I’m finally not ashamed of it (that took a lot longer and positive reinforcement, while appreciating geekness just took a shot of “I don’t focking care if you don’t like it”).

  57. @bttf4444

    Thanks for another link!

    My wife keeps getting exasperated with me for liking Katy Perry, and I admit that I’m a little surprised with myself, but when I like something I own it. My favorite genres are psychedelic rock, punk, and metal… but they definitely all have their pop forms too.

    I didn’t know that about Nickelback and Creed. I don’t like them much, but my wife does.
    It’s weird for me to even think about music as gendered! I know any metal or punk event I went to when I was younger always had plenty of females in attendance. Goth is a type of rock and it always seemed to have plenty of women in its fanbase. Rap music seems likes a music form women maybe shouldn’t like but it seems to be the most popular genre among my female coworkers.

  58. bttf4444 says:

    I don’t really know too much about rap, so I can’t really comment on that. I know that genre also gets targetted for misogyny, probably even more so than rock and metal – but, as I said, I don’t really listen to it. That does also seem to considered “music for men”, though – which, of course, I think is bullshit!

    Probably, during the ’80s (I was just a kid, back then.), music was a bit less gendered. There were probably just as many men who liked Hall and Oates, as there were women – and hair metal did seem to have a larger fanbase. And I don’t think women who like hair bands were considered unfeminine.

    Although, some might argue that it was after more of the power ballads became hits. I do like hair bands, and I’ve always been more into their rockers – rather than their ballads. I like Home Sweet Home by Motley Crue, but that’s kind of a borderline rocker. Before Nothing Else Matter, Metallica’s (not a hair band, I know) song, Fade to Black, was considered to be their first ballad – but I think it’s a little too heavy to be considered a pure ballad. I love songs that mix light and heavy (My favourite song is Over the Hills and Far Away by Led Zeppelin.) – but, with a few exceptions, I’m not a ballad person.

    Now, I don’t know where grunge fits into this exactly. The major grunge bands (particularly Nirvana) seemed to be very pro-feminist – and Dave Grohl’s own band, Foo Fighters, also seem pro-feminist. Of course, at around the same time, you also had Riot Grrrl – which I don’t know much about, to be honest. Other than that they were feminists doing punk. Does anyone here know how heavy they got? Yet, in grunge communities, you really hear much talk about feminism – which is pretty sad.

    But, yeah, as someone earlier suggested – the gender divide probably did start with The Beatles vs The Rolling Stones. Then, during the ’80s was the low peak. And then, after bands like Pantera took over – then the gender divide seemed to grow strong, again.

    Come to think of it, this seems to parallel children’s toys. During the ’80s, toys didn’t seem to be so gendered – but, now they are. I hoping that, one day, the concept of gender roles will be eradicated completely. Gender roles don’t just hurt women. They also hurt men – as well as the transgender, the intersex, and others that don’t fall under the gender binary.

  59. bttf4444 says:

    “and hair metal did seem to have a larger fanbase…”

    Oops, that should’ve been “and hair metal did seem to have a larger *female* fanbase…”

  60. bttf4444 says:

    Also, that should be “Yet, in grunge communities, you really *don’t* hear much talk about feminism…”

  61. @ Daisy

    That’s funny. I could see the Beatles=Girls, Stones=Boys thing if I look hard enough. I love ’em both but I always did like the Beatles better with no preference between the early pop stuff and the later edgey stuff.

  62. ik says:

    We’ve talked a fair amount about femmephobia against woman (Feminist with dress and makeup? TRAITOR!), femmephobia against men (Apparently feminine is a synonym for bad), misandry, etc.

    But what about *splaining?
    For what it’s worth, I am a very gender-conforming, but NOT hypermasculine, cis male. And worried that I may myself be cissplaining or mansplaining here.
    Specifically, I have encountered what I feel (definitely could be wrong) to be ‘transplaining’ or ‘queersplaining’ about the nature of gender and its degree of connection to biological sex. As a result, I have found reading some trans and genderqueer-focused blogs and materials to be rather frustrating even though I recognize that these people face really big problems.
    I find it a bit hard to describe what I think is being explained. Maybe somebody can help me out.

  63. bttf4444 says:

    I’m kinda curious about this, myself.

    I think the tendency in mainstream feminist communities to redefine the word “sexism” to include power – and, thus, denying that “sexism against men” exists – can be counterproductive to the cause. After all, most people who are not active in the feminist community is not going to be aware of this special definition of the word “sexism” – and, as such, it can be a turn-off to people who might otherwise be sympathetic to the feminist cause.

    I’m of the belief that “two wrongs don’t make a right”. If we’re going to condemn people for making sexist-against-women jokes, insulting women, and stuff like that – then we also really should not be condoning sexism-against-men jokes, insulting men, and stuff like that. Respect is a two-way street.

    Also, the biggest issue that I have with the MRA is not just that they are anti-feminist (even though that *does* bother me) – but also the fact that they really don’t even care about the rights of *all* men. They generally only care about the rights of heterosexual, cisgender, gender-conforming men. They aren’t exactly fighting for a man’s right to cry, without being condemned for it.

  64. pocketjacks says:

    I’ve sang in choirs and a high school glee club, and danced ballroom, salsa, and modern, and have these chronic episodes where I really get into cooking. I’ve never heard anything but admiration and encouragement of these hobbies from everyone. The main hobbies I have that I’ve ever felt socially looked-down-upon for enjoying, have been,

    (1) listening to “screaming” death metal like In Flames and Children of Bodom, (from the looks of it, I’m not the only Nordic metal fan here) and

    (2) liking fantasy RPG computer games, (I’m also a huge Game of Thrones fan, and quite recently when we were out drinking, one of my friends tried to use that against me in front of girls. It was teasing and good-natured, but still… anyone here who likes anything fantasy/sci-fi probably already knows exactly how this conversation played out, having had to trudge through it a dozen times before. Of course everyone, boy or girl, knows that Game of Thrones is the best show in the history of things so it didn’t have any traction… and we both ended up hooking up anyway so no hard feelings or anything.)

    Of course, some “masculine”-coded things I enjoy such as poker (as you can guess from my handle) get a lot of respect and there are feminine coded things I do that get looked down upon. (While I wouldn’t call following fashion a hobby, I like clothes, I love buying new ones, and I have a tendency to make comments about, say someone on TV, “too blousy for her figure… she should try a wrap-top” that can draw a couple of stares.) But overall I’ve felt more heat over liking “overly male” things like death metal and fantasy than on femme things. And so while I appreciate the humanity when gender-progressive women offer support and “you go, guy!” sentiments when a guy professes to like something feminine and speaks out against the prejudice he’s had to face, I notice these same types of people often deny or minimize that there are stigmas against very masculine things, too, especially in the hyper-urban, hyper-liberal circles where I’ve lived all my life. (Memo to other liberal urbanites: stop bashing NASCAR. I don’t watch it nor know anyone who does and yet I still know how elitist it looks.) It’s especially an uneasy juxtaposition when I see that exact same group of people or their ideology constantly minimize or apologize for what I see as the rather overwhelming cultural prejudice against nerd hobbies or pastimes. I know I shouldn’t think such things and this is all kind of a First World Problem, but it makes me see those people as very self-serving and disingenuous.

    @bttf,

    IME, women hate Nickelback even more than men do. The girls seem to like The Calling, Lifehouse, and Hoobastank, from what I’ve seen.

    I agree with you on most everything you said, though.

    @EE,

    a fact about myself that people wouldn’t guess… I suppose everything I wrote above is chock full of them. 🙂

  65. jesus_marley says:

    @BTTF – Also, the biggest issue that I have with the MRA is not just that they are anti-feminist (even though that *does* bother me)”

    Be careful here. I can’t help but get the feeling you are equating anti-feminist with anti-woman.

    “but also the fact that they really don’t even care about the rights of *all* men. They generally only care about the rights of heterosexual, cisgender, gender-conforming men. They aren’t exactly fighting for a man’s right to cry, without being condemned for it.”

    This also seems to be a very dangerous blanket statement. IME MRAs come in all stripes. while some people claiming to be MRAs may be knuckle dragging neanderthals, many are not. As many feminists are very quick to point out with their own extremists. We are not a monolith. There are always going to be people within a movement that fall further to the extreme point of view than what is preferred by the group but that does not mean the entire group holds those extremist views. I can’t speak for others, however when I experience people who behave as you describe I try to speak up against it and I have repeatedly identified myself as an MRA.

  66. Everything I know about rap I learned from NPR, but one thing I know about it is that it’s music that foregrounds words– the words can be anything, and those words are all too frequently misogynist, but not always at all.

    And from another angle, not everyone who listens to music is listening to the words– some people are mostly listening for energy level and emotional tone.

    As for the Stones, I was listening to them recently, and I was surprised at how mild they sounded. The world has changed a lot.

  67. no more mr nice guy says:

    @jesus_marley:

    I started my little crusade against MRAs more than two years ago, because MRAs are not good for men and men should not join them. MRAs are rejected by feminists, the Left, the Right, and even by racists. So joining MRAs means to completely isolate yourself from the rest of the world – it’s no wonder why paranoia is rampant among MRAs. And since MRAs believe the most ridiculous things that PUAs say about women, they must have disastrous relationships with women.

    MRAs believe that all women are are feminists, therefore for them, being anti-feminist means being anti-woman.

  68. jesus_marley says:

    @NMMNG – “I started my little crusade against MRAs more than two years ago, because MRAs are not good for men and men should not join them.”

    A crusade? Seriously? Aren’t you being a little melodramatic?

    “MRAs are rejected by feminists, the Left, the Right, and even by racists. So joining MRAs means to completely isolate yourself from the rest of the world”

    OK, so acting in the face of overwhelming resistance is bad and men should just shut up and go back to being exploited. After all, everyone hates me so that makes me automatically wrong.

    “– it’s no wonder why paranoia is rampant among MRAs.”

    Is it paranoia when you have proof that the system discriminates against you?

    “And since MRAs believe the most ridiculous things that PUAs say about women, they must have disastrous relationships with women.”

    PUAs and MRAs are not the same thing. That is like saying dogs have four legs therefore animals with four legs are dogs. That is what we call a leap in logic.Your efforts to equate the two won’t work. Furthermore, as an MRA I have a wonderful relationship with women. The majority of my friends are women. I’m married to a woman. I don’t listen to PUAs and many other men, both MRA and not don’t listen either. I know it’s hard to imagine that men can have individual personalities that don’t conform to your preconceived notions but it’s true.

    “MRAs believe that all women are are feminists, therefore for them, being anti-feminist means being anti-woman.”

    Umm, no. Just, no. Not all women are feminists, Not all feminists are women. As a person who identifies as an MRA, I will tell you once again, Being anti-feminist is not about being anti-woman. It is about being pro-equality.

  69. Jared says:

    @BTTF “but also the fact that they really don’t even care about the rights of *all* men. They generally only care about the rights of heterosexual, cisgender, gender-conforming men. They aren’t exactly fighting for a man’s right to cry, without being condemned for it.”

    In a relativley shallow way that’s true; you won’t find that kind of advocacy near the surface, but dig a little and it will turn up.
    One thing to remember is that most men ~are~ heterosexual, cisgender, and gender conforming (hereafter HCGGC), that doesn’t mean you should ignore those who are not just because they’re in the minority, but, think about the relative percentage of NSWATM posts which have advocated for issues which are of typical concern for HCGGC man,versus those which are not? They aren’t fighting for every man’s rights here either, in fact they’re fighting for an even smaller number of men’s rights than your sterotypical MRA. I’m sure you feel that there’s nothing wrong with that; folks here talk about what they know and post on issues they care the most about (and I agree). But, that’s a respect you need to extend to everybody, not just people who are saying the things you like.

    @NMMNG, Your reasoning is a joke.

    “MRAs are rejected by feminists,”
    Big surprise there; men’s advocates don’t get along with women’s advocates. Even if both sides existed with nary a Roissy nor a Dworkins, you’d hardly expect to see more cooperation and good will than you would between a cat and a dog… in a sack… rolling down a hill… on fire.

    “the Left,” Those gender role reinforcing hypocrites?

    ” the Right,” Those other gender role reinforcing hypocrites?!

    “and even by racists.” And your point was?

    “So joining MRAs means to completely isolate yourself from the rest of the world” Check out the comment section on a mainstream news article on divorce sometime, it ain’t pretty, but I doubt MRAs are feeling lonesome.

    “And since MRAs believe the most ridiculous things that PUAs say about women, they must have disastrous relationships with women.” Yeeaaaah, MRA=! PUA. Big big difference. Also, you’re right; a man’s worth is so ~totally~ dependent on his success with women! Jeeze, we have all been getting it so wrong around here…..

    “MRAs believe that all women are are feminists, therefore for them, being anti-feminist means being anti-woman.”

    This is just a lie. You may as well say :feminists believe all men support patriarchy, therefore for them, being anti-patriarchy means being anti-man.
    It would take about five minutes to scratch up an example of a feminist who fit this view, but it doesn’t change the fact that it would still be a gross overgeneralisation and a deliberate mischaracterisation.

  70. Schala says:

    “Umm, no. Just, no. Not all women are feminists, Not all feminists are women. As a person who identifies as an MRA, I will tell you once again, Being anti-feminist is not about being anti-woman. It is about being pro-equality.”

    This. I’m a feminist critic (rather than anti-feminism), because of what it gets wrong regarding equality.

    Like say, feminism picketing with students in Montreal for the rights of women to higher education (they are well over 55% of the university students here as well).

    Ignoring male victims of DV, homelessness, rape, that is also wrong. Let’s see here. Have feminists with their political clout (and their concil on the status of women, and their vast and funded network of DV shelters for women) advocated to protect and give shelter to men who are victims of abuse, as equality would dictate for them to do?

    Nope, not a sound. In fact, many will say men don’t need protection, are too much of a minority of victims, aren’t afraid, and are all so rich they don’t need a place to live away from their abuser. All patriarchal stereotypes about male invincibility and power. But let’s use them when it suits us, right?

  71. bttf4444 says:

    For those of you who identify as “feminist critics”, what are your views on gender roles? I think part of fighting for equality (for women, men, and people who fall outside the gender binary) is denouncing the whole concept of gender roles. Denouncing the idea that man can’t cry or like pink. Denouncing the idea that women can’t like hard rock/heavy metal or be gamers.

    I guess I’m pretty anti-social-norms in general – which, of course, includes gender roles.

  72. no more mr nice guy says:

    @jesus_marley:
    OK, so acting in the face of overwhelming resistance is bad and men should just shut up and go back to being exploited. After all, everyone hates me so that makes me automatically wrong.
    There are more credible groups than MRAs if you are interested in men’s issues – there are even feminists who support men’s issues. And things are getting worst for MRAs. Two years ago, they had Lady Raine against them, now they have Manboobz laughing at them and the Southern Poverty Center against them. What’s next ? 4Chan ? The Encyclopedia Dramatica ? So unless you like to be like a passenger on the Titanic, I see no reason to hang out with these guys.

    Is it paranoia when you have proof that the system discriminates against you?
    How are you discriminated by the system ? Are you a divorced dad who had a nasty divorce ?
    And paranoia exists among MRAs because and more people are against them. If 4chan goes after them, they will just say that 4chan is feminist.

    PUAs and MRAs are not the same thing.
    Most MRAs are fascinated by PUA. You hang out on Hookingupsmart, you must know it.

    As a person who identifies as an MRA, I will tell you once again, Being anti-feminist is not about being anti-woman. It is about being pro-equality.
    When MRAs talk about feminists, usually they talk about women. Again, you hang out on Hookingupsmart, you must know it.

  73. Jay: That’s funny. I could see the Beatles=Girls, Stones=Boys thing if I look hard enough. I love ‘em both but I always did like the Beatles better with no preference between the early pop stuff and the later edgey stuff.

    Context! Listen to some of those happy-sweet Beatles love songs, and then listen to THIS, which was during the same time frame. Startling, different, smoldering, sexy… and listen to the CHALLENGE in it. (some women heard misogyny, but others heard a challenge, a dare). It is crucial that it was a “romantic ballad” (ha!) and women listened who didn’t like hard rock. They would whisper in the bathrooms, “did you hear that Rolling Stones song?” I first heard it from a babysitter who listened to it non-stop, over and over. I didn’t argue, I loved it! (So the song was obviously addressed to women, and some women went INSANE over it.) It was originally the B-side to “Last time” (he isn’t very nice in that song either), and soon eclipsed the A-side, as women became massively hypnotized by it.

    The expression, “take it to the next level” comes to mind. Beatles vs Stones, Women vs Men! (LOL)

  74. Schala says:

    “For those of you who identify as “feminist critics”, what are your views on gender roles? I think part of fighting for equality (for women, men, and people who fall outside the gender binary) is denouncing the whole concept of gender roles. Denouncing the idea that man can’t cry or like pink. Denouncing the idea that women can’t like hard rock/heavy metal or be gamers.”

    I think that if you like those things (pink, cars, dresses, whatever floats you boat), good for you. But don’t make it about gender. Don’t make it mandatory for some people. Don’t make it restricted for some people. Just don’t put any specific value on it. Just let it be as an activity/interest by itself, period.

    I abhor gender roles to an extent. Their prescriptivity that is. I’m not for bland, gender-neutral people all around. I’m for diversity…as the individual wants it, regardless of their bits, or their identification.

    I want anyone to be able to like Hello Kitty, or death metal, without feeling it’s wrong for their sex, or their gender, or makes them too something, or not enough something.

  75. Schala says:

    “Is it paranoia when you have proof that the system discriminates against you?
    How are you discriminated by the system ? Are you a divorced dad who had a nasty divorce ?”

    Ever tried to take shelter from DV perpetrated against you? Rape perpetrated against you? Anorexia nervosa that you suffered from? Or maybe taking shelter from homophobia (wether or not you are or identify as gay or not)?

    Society says men should “take it like a man”, not whine, and just die before asking for help. So far, society has succeeded in boosting suicide stats. Not helping them.

  76. Danny says:

    Ah I see someone bringing up Manboobz again. I’d have more patience for that place if they didn’t engage in some of the very same tactics they accuse MRAs of doing (but oddly some of the feminists there don’t seem to have a problem with it when its done to MRAs and nonfeminists).

  77. bttf4444 says:

    BTW, when it comes to music, I admit that I don’t usually pay attention to lyrics. Mostly, I like songs if I really like the way it sounds (musically). I’m not into the real extreme metal (Pantera is about as heavy as I go), so I manage to stay away from NSBM and stuff like that.

    BTW, does anyone here listen to a hard rock radio station? If so, do you feel as if they tend to alienate their female listeners?

    For instance, here’s the station profile for Bob Rocks: http://www.1015bobrocks.com/pages/6761306.php?

    It explicitly states that “WBHB is programmed for Males 18-49”. This, I believe, is blatant sexism.

  78. no more mr nice guy says:

    @Daisy Deadhead:
    Another example that, in the 1960s, Beatles=Girls, Stones=Boys : The song by the Beatles “I wanna hold your hand” and the Rolling Stones equivalent “Let’s spend the night together”. It became quickly outdated. Thirty years ago, when I was in college, we had to translate in French some Beatles’ songs like “I wanna hold your hand” and one woman said “These songs are completely stupid!”.

    And do you remember the Disco music vs Rock music conflict at the end of 1970s ? I think that Disco was more feminine than Rock.

  79. Lamech says:

    @NMMNG:
    “Two years ago, they had Lady Raine against them, now they have Manboobz laughing at them and the Southern Poverty Center against them.” I’m not allowed to comment on manboobz, but I will disassemble at least some of the SPLC claims. Lets start here
    http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/myths-of-the-manosphere-lying-about-women
    Okay first “myth” “THE CLAIM Men’s rights activists often insist that men are victimized by sex crimes and abuse just as much as women are, if not more. This assertion is meant to support their contention that the courts and laws outrageously favor women.” The SPLC hilariously cites the CDC report. http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf You know the report that says men and women were raped at equal rates in the past year? And says that men have a equal rate* of “unwanted sexual contact” in the past year? Its been talked about on this blog endlessly, you should know that. This is the most inane mistake on SPLC’s part; they even cited the study debunking their claims! Furthermore this “Nearly one in five American women (18.3%), the study found, have been raped; the comparable number for men is one in 71 (1.4%). ” is saying that being forced to penetrate isn’t rape. Otherwise they would have said 6.2% of men were raped. Fuck you Mark Potok and Evelyn Schlatter, what kind of sorry excuse for a human being says that 5.4 million victims of rape weren’t actually raped?
    *Technically men have a higher rate slightly, but I’m sure its within the margin of error.

    “Myth” two: “THE CLAIM In another effort to show that men are discriminated against, many men’s rights activists assert that women attack men just as much as men attack women, if not more.”
    Oh dear. Again lets look at the CDC study. Page 38 we see that men got physical violence 4.7% percent of the time from a intimate partner in the last year, while women only got it 4.0% of the time in the last year. If we include their whole sexual violence category it becomes a bit more even but not completely. So it appears that DV is perpetrated by a majority of women. I suppose they technically could have been attacking a strawman that general violent crimes are perpetrated at equal rates by females. (Actually, can I see a study that shows that? No arrest rates don’t count.)

    Myth three is the only actual myth it appears. Although I have a question MRA’s on this thread how many of you believe it?

    So yes the SPCL might be against them Of course, when the those writers go around saying that over 5 million victims of rape weren’t actually rape victims I fail to see how that is anything other than a plus.

  80. f. says:

    Things people might not guess about me: I talk quite a bit about how I don’t present myself in a feminine way, but that doesn’t mean I’m not very particular about my styling. I’m obsessive about trying to find minimalist pieces made out of quality materials, I get especially excited about silk, wool and brushed cotton clothes. Some of my favorite stuff comes from thrift stores and flea markets, especially my growing collection of silk scarves and simple brooches (seriously, you can buy beautiful ones for just a few bucks!) I have a fancy short haircut that is pretty indulgent in a way as it requires frequent visits to the salon. I don’t wear even a bit of makeup but obviously I do care about my appearance – even if I do it in a way that often sends me straight to the men’s sale section of department stores.

    I also obsess over my physical surroundings. I’ve rescued some great used furniture from the trash heap or back room of a junk shop. My new project will be to build myself some bookshelves out of reclaimed wood (there is a growing pile of pallets in my room waiting to be pried apart with my trusty crowbar) and I’m on the search for the perfect armchair for my room.

    I don’t think much about these hobbies as “gendered”, they’re just aesthetic things I enjoy.

  81. no more mr nice guy says:

    @Schala:
    There are better place than MRAs websites to discuss these things. Have you thought about Glenn Sacks ? Or feminists like Wendy McElroy ?

  82. f. says:

    Oh, I forgot gardening. Seriously if I have a window sill, it will have a tomato plant growing on it. I’m currently sketching up ideas to maximize yield on my apartment’s balcony while still being able to use it as, you know, a balcony.

    Springtime kind of brings out the engineer in me. Ahem.

  83. no more mr nice guy says:

    @Danny:
    I’m not talking who’s right or wrong. I’m talking about strike force, when the SPLC hit, they hit hard and lots of people believe them. Same for 4chan, if 4chan goes after MRAs nobody will say that 4chan is a wonderful egalitarian feminist site full of queers, transgenders, disabled people and all oppressed minorities that exist. In fact, it’s the opposite. But when 4chan hit somewhere, they hit very hard and I’ve seen it.

  84. jesus_marley says:

    @BTTF – “For those of you who identify as “feminist critics”, what are your views on gender roles? I think part of fighting for equality (for women, men, and people who fall outside the gender binary) is denouncing the whole concept of gender roles. Denouncing the idea that man can’t cry or like pink. Denouncing the idea that women can’t like hard rock/heavy metal or be gamers.”

    I personally don’t give a damn about gender roles. If you want to place with dolls, play with dolls, if you want to play with Legos, play with Legos. If you want to do both, fine. If you need to cry, bawl your eyes out. No harm, no foul. I also find intelligence and creativity to be incredibly sexy, so I am very glad that my wife is a gamer, not only video games but table top. D&D 2nd edition FTW!

    @NMMNG – “There are more credible groups than MRAs if you are interested in men’s issues – there are even feminists who support men’s issues. And things are getting worst for MRAs. Two years ago, they had Lady Raine against them, now they have Manboobz laughing at them and the Southern Poverty Center against them. What’s next ? 4Chan ? The Encyclopedia Dramatica ? So unless you like to be like a passenger on the Titanic, I see no reason to hang out with these guys.”

    No idea who Lady Raine is. Manboobz is irrelevant to me. I’ve been to his blog and well, I’ve seen the cut of his Jib. As for the SPLC, check out the open letter written by Paul Elam. I know it’s for an MRA site so your eyes might burst into flames if you go there but you should risk it.

    “How are you discriminated by the system ? Are you a divorced dad who had a nasty divorce?”

    Do I have to be black to fight racism? Granted I am a visible minority, but that doesn’t lend me any special credibility.

    “Most MRAs are fascinated by PUA. You hang out on Hookingupsmart, you must know it.”

    Cats are generally fascinated by laser pointers too. That doesn’t mean they want to study physics. To my knowledge I’ve never even been to “hookingupsmart” until today. It is possible I may have clicked over through a link or something but the site is not familiar to me. There is a person there with the name Jesus_Mahoney but that isn’t me. If someone there is using my screen name, I can assure you right now, it is most certainly not me.

    “When MRAs talk about feminists, usually they talk about women. Again, you hang out on Hookingupsmart, you must know it.”

    In my experience, when MRAs talk about feminists, they talk about feminists, unless they are speaking about a particular feminist who may also be a woman. Please see my above statement regarding Hookingupsmart.

  85. Danny says:

    NMMNG:
    I’m not talking who’s right or wrong. I’m talking about strike force, when the SPLC hit, they hit hard and lots of people believe them.
    and that’s where who’s right or wrong comes into play. That hit from SPLC seems to be pulling a lot of information from a site that whose inhabitants have no problem dealing in misinformation of their own. So sure people will be SPLC but that “hit” is coming from dishonesty then wouldn’t mean that the people that believe it may be buying into some dishonesty?

  86. No more Mr Nice Guy: And do you remember the Disco music vs Rock music conflict at the end of 1970s ? I think that Disco was more feminine than Rock.

    Yeah! I wrote an article at the time, pointing out the “feminine” voices of the Bee Gees, Michael Jackson, etc. It was for “Red Tide” in Detroit, which I guess tells you what kinda politics they had. 😉

    We went up there a few times and worked w/them on the Rock Against Racism extravaganza on Belle Isle, it was terribly exciting. Many were POC and very concerned with the rock vs disco divide, and saw it as racial too. They made a big point to have rock bands of color at RAR.

    Unfortunately, I passed out near the end of the day-long RAR show, and somebody carried me back to the vehicle and I magically ended up back home. (I think they call that “enabling”–LOL.)

  87. Re: SPLC. Look yall, deal.

    WE had to put up with the Mary Dalys and Janice Raymonds talking genocidal wacko shit about “reducing the male population” and all of that, and we had to carefully separate ourselves from them. Nice mannered criticism, we realized, wasn’t enough, we had to DISOWN them and BE CLEAR ABOUT IT.

    Your turn, guys. DISOWN the haters, or be defined by them. They’re the LOUDEST.

    Unfortunately, that’s how it works.

  88. no more mr nice guy says:

    @jesus_marley:

    Sorry, I confused you with Jesus_Mahoney.

  89. marc2020 says:

    @Daisy I agree with you whole heartedly on this issue exactly why are we so reluctant to call out the crazies? As I’ve always maintained some of the best critiques of the feminist movement have been from feminists like yourself and April over at ethecofem and my others I’m sure. We aren’t being traitors to our gender if we come forward and say these people on the Spearhead DO NOT REPRESENT US!

    Fortunatly for us it appears that the SPLC has made the first move for us.

  90. BlackHumor says:

    @Lamech: Oh god, so hypocritical. You realize you’re cherrypicking statistics much worse than they are, right?

    Myth 1: Yes, the CDC report did find equal rates in the past year. However that was a single statistic in a section that otherwise found ratios of between 3:1 and 18:1 over a lifetime. (The idea that being forced to penetrate isn’t rape also annoys me, but it’s not entirely the SPLC’s fault; they were going by the headings used by the authors of the study.)

    Myth 2: …I actually kind of agree that looking at general population assault statistics, as opposed to domestic violence statistics, misses the point. I mean, it kind of refutes the MRA claim anyway but it’s still a bit off the rails.

    HOWEVER, while it is totally true that men hit women (they are in a relationship with) at the same rate that women hit men (they are in a relationship with), men are considerably more likely to INJURE women by that same CDC study (Tables 4.1 and 4.2). And it’s not just because they’re stronger (men certainly aren’t three times as strong as women anyway); presumably mostly-heterosexual women had greater levels of violence used on them than men did (tables 4.7 and 4.8). Both genders were about as likely to slap, push, or shove each other, but women were WAY more likely to have beaten, choked, or slammed against something.

    @Daisy: Did we ever really disown Mary Daly and Janice Raymonds? I mean, I suppose we can say we’ve disowned Raymonds by now since no feminist talks about her with anything but disgust, but Daly got some unambiguously positive obituaries when she died. Granted those were QUITE controversial in trans circles but she didn’t really get much feminist flak for being anti-man; the feminist position seems to be generally “leave the trolls alone” even if the vast majority of feminists disagree with them.

  91. Druk says:

    Daisy, the problem is that a lot of the stuff the SPLC is listing isn’t even hateful, and is actually reasoned argument (see Lamech’s post).

    And the distancing I usually see feminists do is the “not a monolith” mantra, which doesn’t really even denounce the person or behavior being criticized.

  92. Lamech says:

    @Blackhumor: “Myth 1: Yes, the CDC report did find equal rates in the past year. However that was a single statistic in a section that otherwise found ratios of between 3:1 and 18:1 over a lifetime. (The idea that being forced to penetrate isn’t rape also annoys me, but it’s not entirely the SPLC’s fault; they were going by the headings used by the authors of the study.)”
    Its the SPLC’s fault (or just the authors’ fault as the case may be) for using the CDC’s definition. The CDC doesn’t send thugs over to your house if you use a different definition. They could have used the correct numbers if they wanted. They either did such a spectacularly poor job or reading the report they didn’t even bother to read the definitions section or the entire table they got their numbers from, it was deliberate, or they somehow think that being forced to penetrate wasn’t rape. And I don’t think that they are so bad at reading to do that bad of a job reading the thing. I suppose I should have added the caveat: Unless the authors are spectacularly bad at reading CDC reports; however I expected a better job of reading from people writing for the SPLC.

    The reason I use the 12 month number instead of the lifetime number is that I want to look at the present rate. The lifetime rate includes things that happened 30 years ago. While those things certainly do matter, they are past, and they heavily depend on what happened in the past. They “myth” used the present tense, not the past tense. Hence we should use the thing that focuses best on the present: The 12-month rate.

    Let me give you another example of why to use the 12-month rate. Suppose someone claimed that “1st world and 3rd world countries have the same rates of small pox infection.” Now suppose I had a study that showed lifetime rates of smallpox infection where much higher in 3rd world countries. Also that same study showed that in the past twelve months the infection rates where the same. So does my study debunk the claim “1st world and 3rd world countries have the same rates of small pox infection.”? Of course not! The infection rate is the same all over the world (namely zero) the fact that in the past some people got smallpox doesn’t mean that the rate of infection is anything other than 0.

  93. ik says:

    From my mountainous but crumbling fortress of privilege, I very softly, plaintively, apologetically mumble and whine:
    – Ok. I’ll get rid of them. … But I liiiiiiike gender roles!

  94. bttf4444 says:

    So you think women *should* listen to top forty pop music? Are you a man or a woman?

  95. f. says:

    @Daisy, yes. The feminist movement has plenty of creepy, man-hating, transphobic, racist, ableist, classist skeletons in the closet and even Mary Daly got some positive obituaries a few years ago. People who care about men’s rights should take the excesses of certain feminist thinkers as a warning.

    Now, just to admit my biases, I ride pretty hard for the SPLC… they are the only national organization that bothered to give two shits about the Aryan Nations holed up in a bunker in the woods near my hometown back in the 90s. They came up and filed a lawsuit against the bastards on behalf of Native American plaintiffs who’d had their car run into a ditch by a, uhhh… “security detail”, then the victims got pulled out of their car and beat up. It was a scary time and it really meant something to us locals, to see the AN finally brought down for its blatant thuggery.

  96. f. says:

    Oh, and I wanted to add, I sent them an email asking SPLC to correct the parts about rape and DV statistics, using Lamech’s info. As a donor, I figure they should listen to me 😉 I’ll definitely post if/when they get back to me.

  97. Lamech says:

    I would like to note that now that I thought about it, there is a reasonable chance that it was not reading well on the part of the SPLC authors. A big part of the problem is the CDC’s classification. I still do expect better than that when its a professional author though. I suppose if it doesn’t change in the next couple weeks we’ll see if it is just poor reading, or something more nefarious. (I do consider poor reading + too much apathy directed at rape victims to change it more nefarious.)

  98. f. says:

    @Lamech, I completely know how you feel. Good information about sexual violence and DV is a niche subject even in terms of stuff about the most stereotypical perpetrators and victims, since it’s not something many people bother educating themselves about – I think a lot of times because it’s just too painful to really consider for an extended period of time. There is VERY little awareness of male rape among the general population, and a lot of ignorance or sloppy thinking out there about it. Which is horrible, and excuses nothing.

    I’m honestly not surprised to see an organization I like, trust and support, peddling misinformation on the subject of sexual violence and DV against men. I am disappointed, but to be honest, I think this is an accurate indication of how far our society has to go in terms of recognizing and legitimizing male victims.

  99. Black Humor: @Daisy: Did we ever really disown Mary Daly and Janice Raymonds?

    Black Humor, did I read a post where you said you were fresh out of college?

    So, I really have to ask: Whatcha mean WE?

    Are you still in your 20s? Were you there drawing blood and getting disemboweled during those political splits? If not, no offense, but I don’t think you have a clue. Why do you think you do?

    I am not talking about anyone who was not alive and active during that time.

    I mean, I suppose we can say we’ve disowned Raymonds by now since no feminist talks about her with anything but disgust, but Daly got some unambiguously positive obituaries when she died.

    (There’s that “we” again.)

    Yes she did, and from whom? THIRD WAVE feminists. Oddly, it was the Second Wavers, trans women and those in the middle of the 2nd and 3rd Wave (Kittywampus, singled out for extended applause and huzzahs!) that did the call-outs. And yes, that is interesting. It means the Third Wavers have no sense of history at all. This is the problem with “women’s studies”–it teaches a bunch of theory and bang-up reading material but apparently does not teach the actual history of the women’s movement. I was amazed when I saw nice obits of Daly, but they were not too “personal” (except from Sady Doyle, a Third Wave exception). They were very perfunctory and polite. Its like they thought they were supposed to honor her, but weren’t sure why. Again, it reeked with the whole women’s studies vibe. (Interesting that the Third Wave exception, Sady’s, was not written from the perspective of Women’s Studiesville either.)

    Keep in mind, some of us were opposed to the whole “women’s studies”–ing of the movement in the first place. This solidified the class divide in feminism as little else did, between those who had read the “approved” feminists (vetted by women’s studies courses) and those who didn’t. IMHO, the whole cultural feminist split started between “craftswomen” and woo types (often uneducated and working class) vs the more academic types who liked theory and wanted to go step by step and were not into culture.

    Granted those were QUITE controversial in trans circles but she didn’t really get much feminist flak for being anti-man; the feminist position seems to be generally “leave the trolls alone” even if the vast majority of feminists disagree with them.

    I think this is the fallout of all the nasty splits. Now women simply want to avoid more of them. Also, the movement is very middle-class (see last paragraph for why) and that is how nice middle-class ladies deal with division and disagreement: ignore it.

  100. Thank you, Marc!

    If I had it to do over, I would have done it differently. I wish I had been *more* adamant about the Dalys etc, but there is also part of me (and yall can no doubt identify with this!) that just thought nobody would pay attention to the wacko genocidal stuff and I was personally embarrassed that they were considered the “real” feminists. (I kept forgetting–the professors are *always* considered more important than the rank and file.)

    I now know, it is your enemies and detractors who will pay attention and call you out for your inaction. You lose moral authority when you let the wackos claim your movement, even by silence.

    Black Humor–jokey aside: I was trashed really bad for a post in which I said the Second Wave could exhibit a “vicious nun vibe” .. and then this person went on to approvingly quote Janice Raymond! I guess they didn’t know that Raymond was one of the vicious ex-nuns I was talking about.

  101. My advice to the men’s movement: NO MEN’S STUDIES.

    If you go there, flush it all down the toilet, or divide your movement into an educated and erudite “men’s studies” class, and all the rest of the working class men. And this split will hobble you and follow you for two more decades, at least.

  102. Solo says:

    @f./Lamech
    Thank you so much for pushing this.

    @Daisy Deadhead Re. misogynists in the MRA movement.
    Your completely right. We don’t want to turn into manboobs but we have to draw a line and defend it, regardless of what feminists did or didn’t do with their own.

  103. John Markley says:

    no more mr. nice guy said:

    “And since MRAs believe the most ridiculous things that PUAs say about women, they must have disastrous relationships with women.”

    Yep! Embittered by bad breakups with the fat, hairy, ugly, mannish bitches whose bitterness about being so damned repulsive to men has driven feminism since the dawn of the Second Wave, every one of us. You’ve cracked the code at last.

  104. f. says:

    @Solo, thanks.

    For those who are inclined to write to SPLC about this, here are some things you might want to include (if you are taking the whole “honey catches more flies than vinegar” approach):

    – I appreciate your organization’s work on x issue / reporting on the Men’s Rights Movement (if this is the case for you personally)

    – It looks to me like your report is misinterpreting the statistics about the commonness of male rape, sexual assault, DV victims, here is how [again, Lamech has done the legwork on this in the thread, BlackHumor had some caveats which I also mentioned in my email]

    – The FBI only changed its definition of rape to include certain male victims a few months ago. And some victims are still not included in the definition. This is a clear indication that the issue is still a massive cultural battleground and men are still being ignored and left out in the cold.

    – In addition there is an enormous amount of societal stigma around the issue of male victimization, causing men who have been raped, assaulted, or experienced domestic violence to be less likely to report their experiences at all. This is probably skewing the CDC data as well

    – As a [feminist / gender egalitarian / advocate of men’s rights / human being in general] it is important to me to point out that this issue is not being left exclusively to the “MRAs” you have reported on. Many activist groups and victims’ rights advocates are becoming increasingly aware of male rape as an underreported, often ignored, serious problem in society. I don’t appreciate this issue being treated as only an interest of extremists because that isn’t true.

    – Here is a link to [a victims’ rights group / a story that is meaningful to me / my own story / a scientific study] which contains more information for you.

    Only if you are comfortable, consider writing about your own personal experiences with violence against men, or experiences you have heard about from friends & family. This is obviously an extremely difficult, personal thing to write about, but it’s probably also the very best argument we have.

    – I would appreciate your organization getting back to me

    – If you have donated to SPLC or would consider it, point out that your continued donation depends on this, or that you would no longer consider donating if the report still contains misinformation, or however you feel about your sweet sweet charity bucks in the light of the report.

    Contact form is here: http://www.splcenter.org/contact-us

  105. @ Daisy

    Sorry for a long delayed response. It’s spring break week for the kids and I’ve had to take time off from work to watch them. It’s been nuts.

    That’s a funny narrative: songs where men sing to women about how they’d like to sex said women’s world being songs for men. Like women wouldn’t want to hear Mick Jagger singing about how sextastic they are. I’m sure it was the relatively explicit nature of the lyrics, which really does show how hard people were (maybe are still) clamping down on the idea of women wanting sex at all.

    I can understand how those songs are for men, too, mind. I’ve definitely had lots of moment where a song said what I wanted to say better than I ever could have. That and they rock. 🙂

    About the disavowing extremists thing – do you think its an ‘all good red-blooded men’ thing or more of a MRA’s in particular? I’ll gladly admit everything I’ve seen quoted regarding the SPLC justification for listing MRAs and PUAs has been just terrible. Have you ever been cracking farm eggs and found a chicken fetus? That expression, even though you knew there was a damn good chance you’d been encountering a stillbirth when you were just trying to make a damn omelette, that expression is like exactly the same expression I get when I read that junk. I don’t want to be associated with any of that kind of speech; it’s all garbage.

    I kind of wonder how this is going to work out, though. What is the SPLC doing? No one’s likely to find weapon stockpiles, rallies with MRA’s burning Steinem in effagy, corpses in refrigerators, throwing pipe-bombs at an all-women’s luxury cruise, or the like. The most legal action my cycnical butt could see coming from it is a lot of arrests for overdue child support, or alimony. It reminds me of all those ‘satanist’ hunts they used to have in the 80’s and 90’s. Or maybe, to get more contemporary, those low-budget documentaries and news pieces about how freaky furries (those people who like anthromorphic animal cartoons to the point that they were attending conventions in animal suits and hooking up ) were supposed to be, since this about being scary on the internet. Maybe, with the PUA’s, we’ll see a very special CSI episode where the murderer wears a big, stupid looking, furry hat but I do really wonder what else is likely to happen here?

    I don’t mean to sound like I’m grousing at you at all Daisy, but this thing is a headscratcher for me. You sound like you’ve seen a lot more watchdog efforts against left groups, maybe you’ve seen how some of the efforts against hate groups. You really seem like a good resource to tap, here. What do you think the results of this would be?

  106. Lamech says:

    I would think that the SPLC might call out a bit of misogyny, if it weren’t for a couple problems. One the already mentioned calling over 5 million rape victims not rape victims, while distorting rape and DV stats. That isn’t cool. That is major not cool. The most charitable view I can take is they failed to read the CDC report, WHICH THEY CITED; not only that failed to read the TABLE which they cited. If you did not do the research to such a degree that you didn’t read the whole table you cited something is wrong.

    Two some of the so called misogynistic things they find… not so much. For example:
    “it frequently veers into such posts as the New Year’s Day item attacking a female supporter of then-presidential aspirant Michelle Bachmann for telling a reporter, “It takes a woman to get things done.””.. Now the post they reference might actually contain something wrong with it. But from their description a supporter made a sexist statement and got attacked for it? That is called anti-misandry, NOT misogyny. Or it calling linking news stories misogyny, since they… don’t fit your preferred narrative? Even if they are misinformed about the way the world is, the SPLC managed to call over five million rapes not rape. Pot, meet kettle.

    The most charitable way to view this is they are defending sexism, think attacking sexism is sexism and are horrendously bad at research. Which makes me really doubt a whole lot of good will come of it. Yes they did call out some sexist stuff and call out a myth, but there are also huge problems.

  107. superglucose says:

    I am much more excited by the resigning of Carlos Rogers for the SF Forty Niners than I care about the upcoming election.

    FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!

    (and hopefully a superbowl ring)

    Hint hint politicians, figure your shit out.

  108. Jay: I don’t mean to sound like I’m grousing at you at all Daisy, but this thing is a headscratcher for me. You sound like you’ve seen a lot more watchdog efforts against left groups, maybe you’ve seen how some of the efforts against hate groups. You really seem like a good resource to tap, here. What do you think the results of this would be?

    You’re right, there are no MRA rallies… its mostly online activity. So, who knows a lot about online stuff? Who might try to get someone to help them do something?

    Answer: “Anonymous” probably has a lot of MRA crossover, and that would be the place to watch out for feds.

    Be careful who you confide in. If you can’t prove they exist in real life, they might not.

    PS: If someone you don’t know asks you to do something questionable for the cause, be very, very careful.

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