Open Thread, Can’t Sleep Liberals Will Eat Me Edition

Apparently this is a real book. I don’t… I can’t even…

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149 Responses to Open Thread, Can’t Sleep Liberals Will Eat Me Edition

  1. superglucose says:

    I’d freak the fuck out if Hillary Clinton was under my bead =/

    Though if you think this is bad you should check out “Why Mommy is a Democrat.” I’ve had a conversation with the guy who writes it who honestly believes that people who are not democrats should not be allowed to hold office. Wonderful little bits of propaganda we have out there forcing our children to make our decisions.

  2. superglucose says:

    ^*bed not bead.

  3. PetroniusArbiter says:

    Something that i hope people here will find interesting:
    http://www.genderremixer.com/

  4. superglucose says:

    you know what I think is interesting?

    I woke up this morning and looked in the mirror and was very sad. I was sad because that was a man staring back at me and I wish to God it wasn’t. But if I express “I looked in the mirror today and was like ugh” I will be told I am emo or that I lack confidence or whatever. Basically, in order for a man to be attractive he has to think he’s attractive. But what if I don’t? What if I feel like I’m attractive for a man, but that I don’t really think that’s attractive?

    And why is it that women get to constantly have statuses about how terrible they feel like they look and everyone comes around saying “nooo you’re beautiful.”? Why doesn’t anyone see me feeling like shit about all the goddamn hair on my body and think, “man, this guy needs a pick-me-up”? Invariably all I get are sarcastic “that’s ‘cuz you’re ugly” comments.

    I seriously woke up this morning and walked to the full length mirror and saw my penis and testicles and thought, “god. Dammit.”

  5. L says:

    I mostly just want to know why the bed is pushed up against a window that’s not even waist-height.

    …and why that window has curtains.

  6. Doug S. says:

    My initial thought was that the book is probably a parody of some kind… but apparently it’s not a joke. 😦

  7. Druk says:

    *sigh* I hate it when people get their children involved in politics. It’s squickier (if that’s a word) than showing them hardcore porn.

  8. coffee_queen says:

    @Superglucose: : ( Damn. Your pain is palpable in your words. Would it help you to talk more about your frustration and sadness? To just rant for a bit to someone who is only there to listen?

    This is my own personal observation combined with the Beauty Myth, but it seems women have more leeway in griping about how ugly we look and then getting reassured from people that we’re pretty is because women are taught to care more than men about our appearance. Of course among my friends we all dis each other in jest when any of us get that way: “Oh shut up, you’re pretty, you dumbass”. I’ve heard that a lot lol.

    But is it mainly that you don’t like being a man, or that you would like to have your attractiveness as a man affirmed and noticed by others? I don’t want to push you but I can’t help but feel for you here and empathize with looking in the mirror and hating what it reflects back. 😦

  9. reificator says:

    @superglucose: It sucks to feel shitty when you wake up and look in the mirror as you’re brushing your teeth, etc. It sucks even more to have people be snarky and dismissive when you’re looking for someone to talk to. There’s a lot of pressure on guys to have high self-esteem which doesn’t help men much if they’re feeling down; too, a lot of people are quite incompetent at being supportive to their friends (whether they are guys or girls). The sarcasm might not be intended to wound, but it’s a lot harder to take it as a joke after trying to confide in someone.

    The women who troll for compliments via facebook statuses, selfies, or YouTube videos have been socialized to think that their self-worth comes from the approval of those around them, whereas the predominant male socialization is that self-worth is innate. Which leads to people expecting that all men should have high self-esteem, and that it’s perfectly normal for women to seek external affirmation, especially about their appearance. Of course, it’s important for people to both accept themselves and be accepted by others, no matter their gender.

  10. ... says:

    After reading and commenting on one of the posts about circumcision, I can’t help but remember my hypothesis that circumcision is a way of trying to make men ‘toughen up’ by forcing them through extreme pain when they are at their most vulnerable and then telling them to ‘man up’ about it, and also a way to toughen them physically by cutting their most vulnerable parts and forcing them to scar over- men are supposed to be cold and unfeeling even in their penis.

  11. John1923 says:

    @superglucose

    Straight women and Gay men, are really attracted to men. There will be people in your life who think that you have a hot body.

  12. Thomas says:

    I found an interesting documentary about the gender representation in advertisement. It’s 45 min long but worth watching.

  13. Missy says:

    I’ve seen it Thomas before, it is very interesting, I learned lots of new things,

  14. Danny says:

    coffee_queen:
    But is it mainly that you don’t like being a man, or that you would like to have your attractiveness as a man affirmed and noticed by others?
    Can’t speak for glucose but me personally its the latter. It doesn’t even have to be “attractiveness as a man” just a simple affirmation would do.

    I’ve been doing a bit of soul searching the last few weeks and it hasn’t been pretty. When you go so long and never hear words that other people seem to take for granted it stings. It stings a lot. When you make it to your early 30s without ever once getting even a simple, “hey you’re cute” it weighs on you. Generic reassurances can only work for so long.

    @superglucose: If you ever need some space by all means feel free to come over to my place.

  15. QuantumInc says:

    I knew I saw this elsewhere. The book itself in #4 on page 2, and “Why Mommy is a Democrat” is #3 on the list.
    http://www.cracked.com/article/111_8-insane-ways-parents-are-politically-brainwashing-children/
    I agree with the idea of teaching your values to your children, but this seems absurd. Either way, parents do need to be ready to accept the possibility of their children having their own ideas.

  16. monkey says:

    I have a futon, so anyone under my bed would be a surprise.

  17. gudenuf says:

    A reddit woman explains how it feels to sexually desire a man. Yes, women have desires too!

  18. ruthless says:

    @superglucose

    according to some women and most feminists, “women approach men all the time”, so its not that MEN are ugly, its that SOME men are ugly. Sadly judging with the number of times i’ve been approached (read as: zero), I’d say were pretty much in the same boat, but its not cus were men, its just us ;).

  19. PetroniusArbiter says:

    I don’t know to what extent that is ingrained, or if it is early childhood conditioning or what, but the one thing that has saved me is that my sense of self isn’t all that closely tied to my appearance. I don’t know if that is even possible for an already mature personality, but perhaps try to focus on whatever you like about yourself, or feel confident about – whether that’s smarts, knowledge/expertise in a particular area, emotional/interpersonal skills, whatever is important to you. I know it’s cliche, but looks are far from everything, and attraction is based on more than physique.
    Also, it looks to me that it is easier for men to get compliments in any of those other areas – after all, the Myth of men not being hot is only skin deep.

  20. ruthless says:

    @PetroniusArbiter

    “Myth of men not being hot is only skin deep.”

    not really, I dig all the “personality, smarts, etc” stuff too but if women aren’t interested (assuming your straight) then obviously we don’t have those things in spades all that much either since if we did, we would be attractive (and subsequently approached as women and most feminists proclaim happens frequently to attractive men)

  21. superglucose says:

    Petronius, I can’t tell you the last time I’ve received an unsolicited compliment. I also can’t tell you the last time I gave one out, but i do remember this morning I was telling my friend how pretty she is and how cute it is when she blushes.

    Maybe it’s just me, but I *know* I’m smart, funny, whatever. People like playing games with me and ask me for advice and shit like that because of all that. No one likes how I look… especially not me.

    And no, it’s not because I’m “unattractive for a man.” I’m a dead sexy man. That last bit; however, is the problem 😛 Being a good looking man still means I look like a man.

  22. coffee_queen says:

    @Petronius: “I know it’s cliche, but looks are far from everything, and attraction is based on more than physique.” For me this is very true. I can be extremely attracted to someone physically, but if s/.he isn’t intelligent, isn’t kind, doesn’t have a great sense of humour, and has 0 curiosity, the attraction dies.
    @Superglucose: Guys are sexy! For the very reason that they are guys! I bet a lot of people feel this way. And if you’re seriously sexy people may be intimidated to ask you out or let you know they like you. My girl-friend flirted with me so long and even joked about changing our statuses on FB to “in a relationship” with each other as an April Fool’s joke before my clueless self got a hint. I was afraid to ask her out because 1) homo/biphobia 2) she’s my best friend and I didn’t want to lose her friendship 3) I was intimidated by the fact that she is a med student and I’m a dippy lil’ reporter. She is so smart and funny and pretty that I was dumbfounded to see she liked me back.

    So maybe a similar case may be with the women in your life (assuming you’re straight). But damn, I’d suggest self-affirmations of knowing you as a guy are sexy for being a guy. I mean, you guys can tone and bulk up so well, which I’m jealous of, lol. I want man biceps! 😀 I don’t know how else to describe the sheer WANT that comes over me when I see attractive people, moreso men than women for whatever odd reason my sexuality functions that way, lol.

    Unless of course you really feel like being a guy is the problem? Still not sure on that part but I won’t pry if you aren’t really into sharing. No judging here, I just feel so much for your honest and raw expression of
    pain, and wish there was some way to ease it.

  23. Dr. Anonymous says:

    @ coffee_queen

    “s: “I know it’s cliche, but looks are far from everything, and attraction is based on more than physique.” For me this is very true. I can be extremely attracted to someone physically, but if s/.he isn’t intelligent, isn’t kind, doesn’t have a great sense of humour, and has 0 curiosity, the attraction dies.”

    I have heard this a lot, that good looks can’t make up for inner qualities. What I am missing is someone actually saying that inner qualities can make up for not so good looks.

  24. superglucose says:

    Actually the main problem I have with that line of reasoning is that it feels like they are saying, “Oh, you don’t get complimented on your looks? That’s too bad, I don’t get complimented on XYZ so stop complaining.” My sense of self *is* tied to my looks… perhaps less tied than it is to other charactaristics about me (say my personality) but looks are still a part of me and an important part, too: you can’t turn heads in a crowded room by being smart. Also you don’t get to have sex because despite being butt-ugly you’re funny as hell. Also some days I just need that little bit of affirmation.

  25. Dr. Anonymous? says:

    superglucose

    What I hear, might just be the cynical me is that not only do I have to be really good-looking. I also need to have ridiculous amounts of smarts and humour and charisma.

  26. Danny says:

    I think that the “women do desire men!” line of argument is pretty much meant as a conversation ender. Meant to not acknowledge what you’re feeling but to just shut you down. At best its a generic statement that only says just that, there are women that desire men. Unfortunately what it doesn’t address is the type of men that are considered attractive.

    Sure it would be nice if it could somehow be proven beyond all doubt that any person that’s never gotten an unsolicited comment is actually unattractive in an objective sense but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

    Dr. Anonymous:
    I have heard this a lot, that good looks can’t make up for inner qualities. What I am missing is someone actually saying that inner qualities can make up for not so good looks.
    Agreed. Most of the time its not someone’s ability to manage money well, their genius level IQ, the fact that they run a non-profit, or that they are witty enough to turn a bad situation into a not so bad one that prompts someone to make that first move.

  27. woop says:

    So, I’ve been mulling something over for a while, and I’m not sure how good of an idea it is. In response to all the ‘teach men not to rape’ arguements that have been flying about the internet since the first slutwalk, I’ve always half considered throwing up an image of a mob/lynch mob with the text “These men thought they were stopping potential rapes” on it. Its probably a terrible idea, but it does represent

  28. woop says:

    What I’ve felt was one of the problems of the tactic: people aren’t very nice, and will often use things like that as excuses to shit on some minority group of another.

  29. ozymandias42 says:

    …You guys have seriously never had the experience of thinking “meh” about a person, talking to them, and discovering that they’re ALL OF THE FUCKSEXY because of how cool and interesting and funny and kind they are?

  30. One of my radio show guests walked out on me this morning, when she heard me go off on Ann Romney! Got me all discombobulated! Anyway, she inspired a whole post, hope she is happy about that: http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2012/04/ann-romney-and-class-war.html

    The rest of the show was about South Carolina’s STAND YOUR GROUND law, and we had knowledgeable guests and everything: http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2012/04/more-on-stand-your-ground-laws.html

    You can listen to it here: http://daisydeadhead.blogspot.com/2012/04/non-white-citizens-stand-your-ground.html

    Becoming the left wing Ann Coulter is much harder work than I thought it was gonna be. 😦

  31. superglucose, man or not, betcha I got more of a beard than you do. Luckily, its blonde, but at this rate I will NEVER be ready for my close up, so I finally said fuck it and took a razor to it. (Careful plucking with tweezers is for pre-menopause, and I am in a hurry.)

    (((hugs)))

    PS: take me out of moderation! Auuuugggghhh!!!!!

  32. Leum says:

    …You guys have seriously never had the experience of thinking “meh” about a person, talking to them, and discovering that they’re ALL OF THE FUCKSEXY because of how cool and interesting and funny and kind they are?

    IRL? No. I’ve been further turned on because someone had an awesome mind as well as a nice body, but I’ve never gone from “meh” to “holy crap must bone!” Online, it’s slightly different; I can think of one person. Kyle Kalgreen (Oancitizen) of That Guy With the Glasses’ Brows Held High is absolutely not my type, but I might be willing to have sex with him because his mind is so amazing. That’s as close as I can get. One person who I feel meh about physically who I would consider having sex with. I’m not sure I’d do it.

  33. Hannah says:

    I’ve had that experience. There was a guy who I didn’t think was hot (didn’t think he was ugly, I was just disinterested), but then I chatted with him and realized he was funny and grumpy in ways which amuse me, and then I realized that his beard and body hair (chest, back etc) were actually also quite sexy. Turns out I really like the tactile sensations that hair gives in cuddling, sexy times, etc. But also it took ages between me realizing I liked him to us actually hooking up because I am terrible at approaching people. Fear of rejection is quite deeply ingrained in me, I guess.
    Also, when I told him he was sexy he said he wasn’t. How do you respond to that? I think it had something to do with him thinking his body hair was unattractive, but I’m unsure. He’d get mad if I didn’t accept his compliments, so how can I help him accept mine? Any advice from anyone here? I’m used to complimenting my female friends and them me, because we tend to focus on looks when complimenting each other, since it’s kind of ingrained that looks are what we should be good at. But I don’t always know how to compliment a male friend (other than, you look good today) with specifics without seeming like I’m just doing it b/c I want to fuck them.

  34. BK says:

    @Ozy…no I’ve never had that experience. Then again, I’m physically attracted to most women (at least attracted enough to fuck), so maybe it’s just a numbers thing. Also, talking to women usually makes me less attracted to them. I usually find out something about them that upsets me. Maybe they’re ridiculously shallow, super religious, racist, haven’t read a book since grade school, or have some other boner-killing trait.

    @Hannah, you didn’t find him attractive at first. I can only respond from my point-of-view. If a woman doesn’t find me attractive right away (physically attractive, that is), then I don’t want anything to do with her. I’ve had the experience of being with someone who didn’t find me HOT, and it was horrible. I wanted to be sexy because of how I look, not because of how she felt about me over time. I guess I feel like she didn’t desire me as much as she desires other men because she didn’t find me attractive at first. I know she finds other men sexy from the first look, so I didn’t want to feel like I’m not as sexy as they are in her eyes. If I’m attracted to her right away, I want her to feel that same way about me. Whether or not a woman finds me physically attractive plays a major role in whether or not I want her. If I’m attracted to her right away,

    Also, that may have been the first time anyone’s ever said that to him, and he didn’t know how to react/was in shock. You said your friends compliment you all the time, and I’m sure you also heard the same things from parents and family members when growing up. The chances are his friends don’t compliment him, and his family didn’t compliment him on his looks either. If a woman ever told me I’m sexy, I’d think someone probably dared/paid her to say that. Just as you don’t know how to respond to him saying he’s not sexy, he probably doesn’t know how to respond to you saying he is sexy. I guess I don’t know how you two are together, but you really need to make him feel sexy before you tell him he’s sexy. Most men don’t feel sexy.

  35. Danny says:

    Ozy:
    …You guys have seriously never had the experience of thinking “meh” about a person, talking to them, and discovering that they’re ALL OF THE FUCKSEXY because of how cool and interesting and funny and kind they are?
    No.

    BK:
    If a woman ever told me I’m sexy, I’d think someone probably dared/paid her to say that.
    Honestly I’ve never gotten such compliments but at this point if someone did I’d have to fight off the urge to think it wasn’t genuine (either prank, dare, paid, drunk, etc…).

  36. ozymandias42 says:

    Man, all that is just WEIRD to me. I mean, obviously I have people I’m attracted to on a raw physical level (rawr butch Kristen Stewart, rawr Gerard Way). But nearly every relationship I actually have started with me finding attractive traits about them first, and that made me attracted to them physically. I mean, this isn’t “I love you and hence will put up with fucking you,” this is “ohmigod can’t keep my hands off you, daydream of kissing you, get turned on by your presence” arousal. But then I’ve always been much more attracted to brains than bodies.

  37. Gaius says:

    You guys have seriously never had the experience of thinking “meh” about a person, talking to them, and discovering that they’re ALL OF THE FUCKSEXY because of how cool and interesting and funny and kind they are?

    Actually, I have. Twice.

    Before I begin my story, allow me to preface my remarks with a rubric for physical attraction that may or may not reflect
    10). Artificial or impractical (breast augmentation, photoshopped pictures, heavy makeup, simulacra, etc.)
    7.5). “Average,” but with effort put into it (regular exercise, appropriate diet, etc.)
    5). “Average:” face and body that is about as middle of the distribution curve as you can get
    2.5). Below average

    Now, this rubric does not reflect MY desires. In high school, for reasons that are less than noble, I programmed myself to respond primarily to average bodies; I felt that a 10 on the above rubric was not only unfair to women but also unreachable and impractical. More selfishly, I figured a woman who was a 7.5 on the above rubric would never be interested in me, EVER, so I programmed myself to focus more on “average” bodies and faces.

    In other words: I learned to find beauty in average looks.

    For street cred: without any effort whatsoever, I found almost every pair of breasts in the Pictures of Real Breasts thread here on NSWATM to not only be perfectly desirable but intensely attractive. In fact, I found them so attractive that the thread made me furious: “Look, if they’d only asked ME if they were attractive or not, I’d have given them an unequivocal yes!”

    But back to my story: there have been TWO women in my life who possessed features that would register more as a 2.5 or below on the above rubric, but the sheer joy of BEING AROUND THEM made me totally not care. Here’s a hint: one of them had an extremely powerful intellect, an intensity of expression, and the ability to use both effectively, a combination that made me rather weak in the knees. =) Granted, it helps that for me, narrative context is an important part of sensuality and always has been, so I suppose I don’t get any points for that.

  38. BTW, I guess you know Katharine DeBrecht (author of the book you are making fun of) lives in upstate SC, right? Where ELSE would she live?

    Ozy, I am also pretty surprised at the statements here. Looks still matter the *most* to people, I guess. (sigh) Very disappointing.

  39. ruthless says:

    @ozymandias42

    I usually have the opposite reaction.

    I as a rule do not approach women for conversation I don’t already know, but if they walk up to me and start talking and turn out to be smart, funny, cool, etc, im immediately feel

    a) that there is now NO WAY ill be able to have any romantic relationship with this person because women (as many have admitted in this thread) don’t usually find men attractive at all until they “show off” a bit (read as: prove or demonstrate in some way they are smart, funny, cool, etc) and the idea that I have to fan my feathers like a peacock to even get her to CONSIDER if she’s attractive to me encourages me to quit while im behind and give up immediately.

    and b) because even if I DID have a shot in hell, since women don’t find regular guys (read as: me) attractive until they start talking to them, I know she didn’t approach me because she thought I was hawt, she did it because she was shopping for intelligent conversation (or ya know because she wants me to do something for her). And smart “feminist” or gender egalitarian women usually shout from the highest mountain tops about how they hate it when they are trying to have an intelligent conversation and the guy they try talking to is all worried about “getting with her” rather than having said intellectual exchange.

    so if she was interested, I have no socially acceptable way of expanding on it.

    so i guess the short answer would be yes but the slightly longer answer would be yes but then they immediately become unattainable once they become “interesting” and thusly remove themselves from my pool of options.

  40. Schala says:

    “Before I begin my story, allow me to preface my remarks with a rubric for physical attraction that may or may not reflect
    10). Artificial or impractical (breast augmentation, photoshopped pictures, heavy makeup, simulacra, etc.)
    7.5). “Average,” but with effort put into it (regular exercise, appropriate diet, etc.)
    5). “Average:” face and body that is about as middle of the distribution curve as you can get
    2.5). Below average

    Now, this rubric does not reflect MY desires. In high school, for reasons that are less than noble, I programmed myself to respond primarily to average bodies; I felt that a 10 on the above rubric was not only unfair to women but also unreachable and impractical. More selfishly, I figured a woman who was a 7.5 on the above rubric would never be interested in me, EVER, so I programmed myself to focus more on “average” bodies and faces. ”

    Wether male or female, any 10 will be someone I probably loathe the lifestyle of, and it will probably be mutual. After all, I wash my hair once a month (it’s shiny and not greasy, but people and misconceptions – I also never use products in it, or straighten or curl it).

    7.5 I dunno. If appropriate diet involves 0 calories anything, nope. If regular exercise involves marathons or 15 hours a week of exercise outside going to work, nope.

    5 is what I’m attracted to if its physical.

    You need a certain bad vibe to reach 2.5 to me. You either try to stalk me, approach me covertly while trying to appear that you don’t (but its painfully obvious that you do), bonus points if I’m in a couple and you’re in one too (and you know about it, and you know that I know about yours, too), since I’m monogamous. You win creep points.

  41. superglucose says:

    @Ozy, no. To be honest I’ve yet to meet someone who’s brain is that fascinating to me. The vast majority of people I have ever met (bordering on everyone) are small-minded individuals who refuse to accept that their own judgments are clouded by their emotions. One day maybe I’ll meet someone who not only understands that their own judgments are clouded by emotions but are wise enough to look beyond and past their emotions to reach proper, logical conclusions (while at the same time accepting their emotions as real and valid). They’ll probably hate me and I’ll probably stalk them endlessly hoping that an ounce of their glory will rub off on me.

    Before that, though, I find everyone thinks pretty much the same way. Which isn’t to say that everyone *acts* the same way, but that if you trace out the experiences people have and their reactions along the way you generally reach a sort of pattern that’s repeated everywhere. Yes, even across cultures.

  42. coffee_queen says:

    long brain spew/
    One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was to focus less on trying to make people be attracted to me, and just focus on being the most attractive me I could be. If I didn’t find myself attractive, why did I expect someone else to? Others can’t do for you what you won’t even do for yourself.

    Personal example: I started losing weight in high school to avoid getting called fat cow and so people would find me attractive. But I still looked in the mirror and hated what I saw and condemned myself as a fat ugly cow no one would want. And that inner conviction negatively colored my interactions with people, in which I assumed people would find me ugly and saw all the “evidence” of my theory – and missed a lot of evidence that someone I knew and liked liked me back because I wasn’t looking for it, as I see now from 20/20 hindsight. Now, I work out and eat right because it makes me feel fantastic, and I am happy, and now I occasionally get compliments on looking good. Actually, smiling probably helps too lol.

    I’m not saying that self-acceptance will automatically win others’ attraction, but it can’t hurt, yeah? At any rate, if a person can’t be bothered to care for their body – eating right and exercising (all in moderation), practicing good hygiene, getting clothes and haircuts that look good on them, etc. – then why expect people to find you attractive? I know of this really hot guy who I’d never sleep with despite how attractive he is because he doesn’t “believe” in using soap, deodorant, shampoo, or brushing his teeth. And his opinions about women don’t help. Talking shit about the opposite sex and treating them like idiotic children is not a good way to get one of them to like you…

    For me, attraction is a complex matrix of looks and personality and philosophy. They must all be there, or there’s no spark.

    I can’t remember where I read it, but a blogger pointed out the reality that no one is entitled to being thought as attractive to other people. =( They went on to point out that it’s better to find the small group of individuals who will find you attractive than it is to let yourself get angry and bitter because the vast majority of people don’t respond to you the way you want them to.

    Personally I’m super short, skinny/toned, practically flat-chested, and I wear my hair pixie short. To many people I’m unattractive because I’m not tall, don’t have long locks of flowing hair, and am not D-cupped and curvy, and they’ve basically told me so. Maybe I’m just an egotistical loner, but I’m usually able to raise an eyebrow and shrug it off. But then, I struggled through a lot of self-hate before coming to a place of being at peace with the idea of being single forever, if that’s how it turns out, or maybe one day finding someone. I’m not saying everyone should be this way, but my personal theory is that spending some time learning to love your own company and focusing on being someone worth loving instead of expecting to automatically be loved makes it a bit easier to cultivate better relationships with others.

    /long brain spew
    PS:
    ❤ and (((hugs))) to all the people out there hurting and feeling unloved. For what it’s worth. =)

  43. coffee_queen says:

    *Back again; I’m like this thing that won’t go away lol*
    In general, society propagates this myth of men not caring about their appearance, but obviously the pain many guys here experience at not having their attractiveness as men affirmed flushes that BS down the toilet. 😛 A lot of women therefore don’t realize how important this is to a lot of guys and compliment them on other things – intelligence, wit, achievements, etc. – because they think that complimenting a guy’s looks would only earn “um, ooookaaaayy..? Thanks, I guess? ”

    So guys: what comments would you like to hear from womenfolk / others? Specifically what would make your day to have someone tell you, and what would make you uncomfortable? Do you feel “safe” letting your friends know how important it is for you to hear these things?

  44. Danny says:

    Ozy:
    Man, all that is just WEIRD to me. I mean, obviously I have people I’m attracted to on a raw physical level (rawr butch Kristen Stewart, rawr Gerard Way). But nearly every relationship I actually have started with me finding attractive traits about them first, and that made me attracted to them physically. I mean, this isn’t “I love you and hence will put up with fucking you,” this is “ohmigod can’t keep my hands off you, daydream of kissing you, get turned on by your presence” arousal. But then I’ve always been much more attracted to brains than bodies.
    To me its been a mix (sometimes brain sometimes body) of which comes first but the keyword is “relationship”. That pretty much means that you actually made it to a point where you became “attracted to them physically”. Whichever of the two happens first if nothing hits off then the other won’t happen regardless.

  45. Yeah I’m w/ Ozy. xD My attraction is so much about personality and intelligence and everything that’s not looks. All of my crushes and attractions develop before I’ve even seen the person and seeing them doesn’t change the “I want you so bad” thing at all. And no, it’s not “OKAY I’LL TOLERATE HOW YOU LOOK” or nething, it literally is being physically attracted to a person because of who they are :3 (Just so you know you’re not alone Ozy 😀 *pawbump*)

  46. Hugh says:

    I’m always a little sceptical when people pipe up to talk about how much physical attractiveness doesn’t matter to them, and how they’re so focused on personality, intellect, etc etc.

    Sometimes it feels like these people are buying into the whole “looks = shallow, personality = deep” dichotomy, and are thus just bragging.

  47. ruthless says:

    im not even sure that’s so much better. If you don’t get hit on and assume it’s because of your looks thats one thing, but if you attract no attention and you assume it’s because of your personality, that seems quite a bit more miserable. Tho if there are people in both camps and you don’t get hit on at all, does that mean that both are messed up?

  48. suturexself says:

    @Coffee:

    “I’m not saying that self-acceptance will automatically win others’ attraction, but it can’t hurt, yeah? At any rate, if a person can’t be bothered to care for their body – eating right and exercising (all in moderation), practicing good hygiene, getting clothes and haircuts that look good on them, etc. – then why expect people to find you attractive?”

    This. A poster on here recently said something about not trusting anyone who would be attracted to him after he lost weight – as though, somehow, there was a certain amount of adipose tissue that was the “real” him and, in losing that, he would lose himself.

    “So guys: what comments would you like to hear from womenfolk / others? Specifically what would make your day to have someone tell you, and what would make you uncomfortable? Do you feel “safe” letting your friends know how important it is for you to hear these things?”

    Personally, being told I look strong tends to make me blush like crazy.

    Actually, one of the most flattering things someone has done was, at a boardwalk, asked me to help someone in a wheelchair be lifted up some steps – it signaled to me that I looked both strong enough to help and friendly enough to be approached.

    I’ve also gotten some compliments about my hair and eyes, but those aren’t things I have much control over.

    My friends, especially the male ones, are a pretty open group, so I’d feel fairly safe discussing this kind of stuff with them.

  49. suturexself says:

    Know whats funny about the “looks don’t matter” line? I’ve been hearing people say it all my life, and then, not too long ago, developed quite a large crush on someone on the internet with whom I’d had minimal contact (a witty, snarky, subversive blogger who commands a vocabulary that makes me weak at the knees sometimes) – and of whom I’d never seen a picture. Whenever I told anyone of my crush, they were shocked and asked how I could have a crush on someone I’d never even seen.

  50. L says:

    I got ladyboners for my now-husband before I’d even seen a picture of him.

    And show of hands: how many here are griping about women not finding them physically attractive inspite of a great personality while simultaneously only base their attraction to women on their physical looks and not personality?

  51. BK says:

    @Ozy, it just hasn’t ever worked like that for me. Maybe I’m really picky when it comes to personality. I have a female friend whom I find very physically attractive, and she’s easily one of the most intelligent and funny people I know. I admit to having a crush on her when we first met and started talking. However, as time went on, I learned she’s quite shallow and judges men mostly on how they look. I’m overweight, and I’ve struggled with it my entire life, and I’ve never been able to lose more than a couple pounds. While all my thin, attractive friends in college were shoving pizza and burgers and beer into their mouths and getting laid every weekend, I would pop a few carrots into my mouth, maybe wash them down with some water and only have sex with my right hand. (I got made fun of CONSTANTLY for trying to lose weight.) They’d never gain an ounce; I’d never lose an ounce. Anyway, this female friend of mine would go on about how she could never be attracted to a man who’s overweight. I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking my clothes off around her or being physical with her in any way, which is why I don’t want to be in a relationship with her.

    @L, I wouldn’t fuck a woman I found physically AMAZING but repulsive otherwise. And I certainly wouldn’t be in a relationship with her. I’m saying personality is more important than looks. The thing is: I’m physically attracted to a lot of women; their personalities on the other hand…not so much. I’m not saying a woman’s looks are the most important thing to me. I’m saying I want her to like my looks without thinking about the way I look in the context of my personality.

    Ok, ladies, imagine your friends ask your boyfriend/husband/etc. what he thought of you when he first saw you, and he says, “Meh.” How would that make you feel? Wouldn’t you want him to think you were WOW! from the first time he laid eyes on you? (Or, how would it make you feel if he was really into the way you look, but he thought your personality wasn’t all that great?) I’d want a woman’s first thought when she sees me to be, “DAMN!”

    For as much as you say looks aren’t that important to you, we men see how you react to Ryan Gosling or Johnny Depp or whichever Hollywood guy you like. I was watching the Super Bowl with some friends, and my female friends creamed their panties when they saw the David Beckham underwear commercial. We want you to react to us that way. That’s rare for men, and that’s what it would take to make me feel sexy.

  52. When I was ten I became psychotic. I had complete black-outs time to time, and was constantly busy with magical schemes to protect myself and the rest of the world from demons. My parents and other adults were worried that I had no friends, but they never grasped why; I couldn’t see the point in socializing with other humans when the fate of the world was at stake.
    I started to get a little bit better when I was eleven-twelve, by then I was sort of alternating between psychosis and a more realistic world view. And when I became a teenager I had spells of borderline-psychosis pretty often, but I was pretty much attached to the normal world for most of the time.

    Anyway. Because of this history I had NO SOCIAL SKILLS whatsoever when I became a teen. People didn’t know exactly what was wrong with me, but everyone knew there was SOMETHING not quite right about me. I was always really awkward in social situations in a completely non-quirky and non-endearing way. Naturally, I couldn’t get a boyfriend. And I used to hate my personality because of this. I used to wish that boys would be more shallow – since I had conventional attractive looks, I might have had a chance if that were all that mattered. But apparently one also needed a not-completely-fucked-up personality as well, which I didn’t have.

    When I told some female friends about these experiences years later (by which time I had learnt some rudimentary social skills which allowed me to both have friends and get laid) they thought the whole thing was hysterical, since THEY had all spent their early teens hating their bodies and wishing that boys would care more about personality.

  53. ozymandias42 says:

    I’m not sure why we’re necessarily assuming that “can personality make you attracted to someone you otherwise would feel meh about?” is gendered; it’s a random set of people on a blog, and with a sample size this small a sharp gender division is certainly not impossible even if the trait isn’t gendered at all.

    I wouldn’t find “your looks were meh, and then I found out your personality is awesome” insulting at all. I mean, until two days ago I assumed this was how a majority of relationships started. 🙂 I am damn hot, but skinny female-assigned androgynes in glasses are a minority taste, so it is perfectly reasonable to me that many of the people I’m with are, on a raw physical level, more attracted to cute redhead BBWs or something. Actually I take it as somewhat of a compliment that my personality manages to make someone attracted to me (Obviously, I’m not saying this is how most people work or should work! I am simply discussing my own experience.)

    (shrugs) I mean, looks are important to me. I certainly know what my physical type is, and shall not go about messing with David Beckham when there exists David Bowie. I can just also get a raw physical attraction from people I might have overlooked at first but are totally awesome people.

  54. ruthless says:

    @ozymandias42

    im not a woman so I have no idea, but i suspect what you keep putting in the category of “oh well there are dudes like David Bowie” is the same category of attraction we (cis straight men) get when we see a pretty girl walk down the street. That sensation of “holy crap, who cares what he sounds like ill take him please!” that you describe as exceedingly rare is what sounds like I (and i suspect most dudes) go through about 15 times a day. So it’s not the feeling itself that’s alien to you, i suspect it’s the frequency of which we experience it.

  55. Danny says:

    Ozy:
    I wouldn’t find “your looks were meh, and then I found out your personality is awesome” insulting at all.
    Its not so much as insulting but rather a matter of never hearing that one’s looks is more than meh. I’ve been told I’m funny, I’ve been told I’m smart, I’ve been told I have nice hair, I’ve even told I’ve been caring (all pretty much personality traits except the hair). But I’ve never gotten a (positive) comment on just my looks (more than just my hair). (I would imagine this is like anyone that’s gotten regular compliment on just one thing taking it to heart that that’s pretty much the only thing that gets complimented on, like a woman who only gets comments on her looks but never her intelligence.)

    And while those personality comments were nice that of course doesn’t mean of course something will ignite from there.

  56. debaser71 says:

    Ozy, your privilege is showing.

  57. John1923 says:

    # READ THIS SHOCKING ARTICLE AT JEZEBEL (Male Rape)
    http://jezebel.com/5901998/german-woman-tries-to-hold-sexhausted-man-prisoner-in-her-apartment

    Then read the All section of the comments, and have some of your faith in humanity restored.

  58. Leum says:

    And show of hands: how many here are griping about women not finding them physically attractive inspite of a great personality while simultaneously only base their attraction to women on their physical looks and not personality?

    This is a quite unfair characterization. No one has said personality was irrelevant to their sexual attraction. What the majority of men on here have said is that personality isn’t enough to develop into sexual attraction. I’m not straight, but I can absolutely say I fit this. With the exception of Kyel Kallgreen (as I mentioned above), I can think of no men whose personalities have overcome my feelings of “meh” about their bodies. I can, however, think of numerous men whose personalities have ratcheted by sexual attraction up by eleventy.

    Furthermore, most of the men here have explicitly said that they wouldn’t want to be with a woman who found them “meh” physically and was turned on by their personality. They have explicitly rejected such an attraction as insulting and demeaning. Please stop trying to pigeonhole us based on the nice guy(TM) stereotype. Not every man who can’t get laid but would like to is a nice guy(TM).

  59. Leum says:

    *my sexual attraction, not by sexual attraction

  60. Danny says:

    I’m glad my governor is speaking out against Amendment One but I have a bit of a problem with this video.

    Apparently the amendment will harm women, children, unmarried couples, people who come from other states that are in a marriage that is not one woman/one man…..

    My problem is that nearly every piece of “how Amendment One is harmful” has talked ONLY about women victims of DV violence. Not “its harmful to victims of domestic violence” but “its harmful to women”.

    I’m against this amendment but is it really necessary to copy/paste the one sided nature of the DV discourse into it?

  61. ozymandias42 says:

    Dude, I used a celebrity as an illustration because if I said “I generally prefer the looks of Noah Bourlett to those of Chris Reynolds” (two acquaintances of mine) no one would have any idea of what I was talking about.

  62. L says:

    @BK, Leum: I wasn’t actually accusing anyone of doing that– I barely skimmed the comments that were talking about the subject, tbh. I just wanted to see what the reactions were going to be, and if someone had said “uh, none of us”, I would have said good; just what I wanted to hear.

    Re: personality isn’t enough to develop into sexual attraction– I dearly hope that I don’t have to go on my asexual spectrum diatribe again… That said, it’s fine and dandy if you don’t want to date someone that lacks the ability to feel primary sexual attraction, but do not claim we don’t exist, kthx.

  63. Leum says:

    Would you please stop putting words in my mouth? What I said was that most of the guys here said they wouldn’t want to date somone who felt to primary sexual attraction towards them. I didn’t say no one would, I didn’t even imply it.

  64. What L said… in fact, it bears repeating:

    And show of hands: how many here are griping about women not finding them physically attractive inspite of a great personality while simultaneously only base their attraction to women on their physical looks and not personality?

    It has been ever thus.

  65. Leum says:

    It would bear repeating if it in any way reflected the conversation that was occuring in this thread and did not explicitly contradict what the men here are actually saying.

  66. Allisa says:

    I think the above discussion of “thinks is really hot at first sight” and “doesn’t find attractive at first, grows to find attractive due to personality” leaves out a concept that is really fundamental to the way I experience desire.

    For me, sexual attraction (as opposed to an aesthetic evaluation of ‘pretty’ or ‘beautiful’ that is pretty divorced from sexual thoughts) is something that I don’t get from a picture or super brief encounter with someone. I am attracted to people in their physicality- it’s the small quirks of movement or smiling or posture that switch my perspective from aesthetic to sexual. This is certainly influenced by my idea of their personality, but isn’t necessarily based on it at all- there have been men who I found really incredibly attractive based on the way they fidgeted in a grocery line. For me, it’s not that I change my mind about sexual attractiveness based on personality, but that specific physicalities are a major component in whether and how someone turns me on.

    (For example, if you asked me whether I found a picture of someone hot, my answer would be based less on the picture itself than on who it reminded me of.* I had a huge crush on a guy with this very distinctive head tilt, so a picture with a head tilt is likely to remind me of him, and so I am probably more likely to find it attractive. For the record, I am not actually this Pavlovian with actual people- the immediate particularities of their physicality are way more overwhelming- but with photos there’s really not much else for me to go on.)

    By the way, I’m a straight woman who is pretty devoid of sexual experience, due to the combination of not getting hit on and being too focused on/ busy with other things to hit on men myself.

    *Exception: if there are certain dynamics being expressed in the picture, that is certainly a big influence.

  67. Danny says:

    L and then Daisy:
    And show of hands: how many here are griping about women not finding them physically attractive inspite of a great personality while simultaneously only base their attraction to women on their physical looks and not personality?
    Griping? How lovely. Actually my “gripe” is never being found physically attractive, (and to borrow a certain catchphrase) full stop. Or at least never being told.

  68. L says:

    @Allisa: That’s similar to how I experience attraction. I have zero response to a person’s aesthetics, and my attention to someone’s phsyicality if a relationship hasn’t been established enough for me to find them “hot” feeds purely into primary kink attraction. You sound a bit like a demisexual to me. 😛

    @Danny: Then my comment doesn’t apply to you, does it? I was addressing hypocrites– don’t make it about you if you’re not being a hypocrite. As for never getting complimented without solicitation, I’ll be more than happy to pass on some of the cat-calls I’ve gotten from strangers on the street..

  69. Re: Unsolicited compliments

    If you had asked before 4/6, I would have said “over a year ago”, if you had asked before PAX East 2011, I would have had to ask whether or not underage girls trying to surprise you out of left field with a lap dance 11 years prior when you were 19 counted (oddly enough, a few girlfriends in that timespan, plenty of sex when in a relationship, but never a compliment [or a girl who initiated any step of the way]).

    Strangely enough, at PAX East 2011 and 2012, someone has paid an unsolicited compliment to me regarding my beard. 2011 it was a dude on a skateboard near coat check who wanted a picture of it, 2012 it was a cute girl just outside the main expo hall (right outside the door closest to the ZOTAC and paintball booths) on Friday while my nephew, friend and I were sorting our ZOTAC pins.

  70. Leum says:

    @Danny: Then my comment doesn’t apply to you, does it? I was addressing hypocrites– don’t make it about you if you’re not being a hypocrite.

    Your comment doesn’t apply to anyone who’s posted in this thread. Given that, we can only assume that you’re making inferences about us that are entirely invalid, and we have no way to know to which of us you’re making those inferences. When your comment applies to nobody, it equally applies to everybody. The thread is only 69 comments long, it wouldn’t’ve taken you that long to read it and so be able to respond to the actual comments in it.

  71. Danny says:

    L:
    @Danny: Then my comment doesn’t apply to you, does it? I was addressing hypocrites– don’t make it about you if you’re not being a hypocrite.
    Well now aren’t we getting a bit, direct.

    Well not too direct since you seem to think there are hypocrites in these comments but don’t seem to be able to call them out directly.

    As for never getting complimented without solicitation, I’ll be more than happy to pass on some of the cat-calls I’ve gotten from strangers on the street..
    According to what I’ve been told by women who have been cat called there’s a bit of a difference between unsolicited compliments and cat calls isn’t there? Or at least the explanation I’ve heard makes sense to me. I’m sure if they met your criteria of a compliment (“You are so gorgeous.” while chatting one on one) rather than rude/crass cat calling (“Let me grab dat ass!!!” shouted from across the street) you would not be so quick to pass them along.

  72. suturexself says:

    “Dude, I used a celebrity as an illustration because if I said “I generally prefer the looks of Noah Bourlett to those of Chris Reynolds” (two acquaintances of mine) no one would have any idea of what I was talking about”

    Um, I’d hazard a fair guess at who this Noah character might be.

  73. BK says:

    @Allisa, that’s a somewhat foreign idea to me. You say that aesthetic evaluation is divorced from sexual thoughts for you, but that’s not how I work at all. When I find a woman good-looking, she immediately gets placed in the category of women I want to bone. So, if I find her good-looking, therefore I find her sexy, therefore I want sex with her. Once in that category, however, a woman’s personality very often removes her from that category, which sucks. Maybe she thinks Canada is a state in the USA, or maybe she says she wants to get a massage but doesn’t want an Asian person touching her, or maybe I tell her I’m an atheist and she comments how she didn’t think there were any of “those people” around here. (Yes, all three of these things have happened to me in real life.)

    When I do happen to like the personality of a woman, it’s not really in a sexual way. It’s usually in the context of a relationship. For instance, I may be very attracted to a woman’s personality or her physicality (the way you described it in your reply), but that most likely would just make me more desire a relationship with her or maybe feel comfortable enough around her to share myself more, which very well could include being physically intimate. But it hasn’t so far. When I talk about hotness or sexiness, I’m talking about looks unless I say otherwise. But I do believe I could be attracted to a woman’s personality and physicality enough that I could desire sex or a relationship with her even if I don’t think she’s good-looking. However, that’s never happened. I’d totally welcome it if it did happen, though.

    Thank you for your perspective. It was interesting. However, I still feel most heterosexual women see a picture of a hot celebrity guy and think he’s totally sexy and would fuck him in an instant without knowing his personality or physicality. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you’re different. I’m not saying I know EVERYTHING. Just most things…

  74. Allisa says:

    @L Actually, it’s not that I need to have a relationship with someone to be attracted to them- I just have to see the way they move in real life, take up space, or gesture. For example, there’s a guy that I cross paths with (literally- we’ve never spoken, I have no clue what his name is) that I find really, really attractive. But if I saw a picture of him, I might find him aesthetically nice-looking, but there would be no tinglies. I don’t think this is quite what ‘demisexual’ means, though I am not entirely up on the nuances.

  75. Leum says:

    Allisa, I totally get what you are saying. Motion is really important to me, too. A still picture of a naked guy posing, however hot, isn’t going to be nearly as attractive as a picture of two less attractive fully clothed men kissing. When I see how someone moves in real life, it definitely affects my impression of his attractiveness, though not to the point where watching someone fidget is a turn-on.

  76. ozymandias42 says:

    Suture: Nope, that Noah is Noah BRAND. I know multiple Noahs.

  77. suturexself says:

    Oh. I erroneously assumed Brand was a pseudonym. My apologies.

  78. PetroniusArbiter says:

    Several people mentioned both women’s and men’s reactions to celebrities when comparing to their own experiences. I’d just like to mention that there are several other factors at work there beyond just appearance. Status/fame/idolization can have quite a powerful effect, and i doubt the majority of people (of whichever gender) would react the same way to seeing an identically attractive person if they were divorced from all those other aspects (not even going into how the images we see are, in majority in cases, somewhat removed from the actual realistic appearance of the celebrity in question anyway). So, just my opinion, but expecting that “OMG” reaction is unrealistic. Not that there’s anything wrong with wanting it i guess, but you would be in for disappointment.

  79. L says:

    Well not too direct since you seem to think there are hypocrites in these comments but don’t seem to be able to call them out directly.

    I guess you missed the part where I said: I wasn’t actually accusing anyone of doing that… I just wanted to see what the reactions were going to be, and if someone had said “uh, none of us”, I would have said good; just what I wanted to hear. Not sure how you can get “I’m accusing specific individuals of something” from “I’m not actually accusing anybody of anything”. This might just be me, but I’m pretty sure those are the exact opposites of each other.

    I guess genuinely being interested in the reaction to a (half-rhetorical) question that was purposefully not directed to anyone in particular to gague things is that implausible.

    As for the cat-calling, personally? I don’t appreciate any comments about my general looks by anyone, thanks. Shit like “hey there beautiful” will put me in a bad mood for the rest of the morning. It rarely ever means that they just think you’re aesthetically pleasing and felt like letting you know to boost your self-esteem. It’s usually not that at all and it fucking sucks. So here, you can have all of these “hey beautiful”s and “hey sexy”s and “you’d look so pretty if you just smiled”s.

  80. Danny says:

    Fair enough on your question.

    As for the cat-calling, personally? I don’t appreciate any comments about my general looks by anyone, thanks. Shit like “hey there beautiful” will put me in a bad mood for the rest of the morning. It rarely ever means that they just think you’re aesthetically pleasing and felt like letting you know to boost your self-esteem. It’s usually not that at all and it fucking sucks. So here, you can have all of these “hey beautiful”s and “hey sexy”s and “you’d look so pretty if you just smiled”s.
    At this point I’m dangerously on the edge of simply not caring if they are genuine or not and becoming the guy that tells a woman that is sick of the comments altogether, “I wish people would say that stuff to me!”. But if you’re passing the compliments along too then so be it. Score!

  81. Leum says:

    I guess genuinely being interested in the reaction to a (half-rhetorical) question that was purposefully not directed to anyone in particular to gague things is that implausible.

    Had you read the thread rather than merely skimmed it you would have seen the answer to your question clear as day. No one had been “gripping about women not finding them physically attractive inspite of a great personality while simultaneously only base their attraction to women on their physical looks and not personality.” Since you didn’t say you’d only been skimming the thread, we naturally assumed you’d read it; there were only forty-nine comments at the time you made your post, and you had already participated in the thread.

    The wording of your question was also problematic. You asked not “has anyone been gripping?” but “how many have been gripping?” clearly implying that at least one person had in fact, been gripping. The question was, as you admitted, half-rhetorical, it was based on the assumption that there had in fact been gripping and you wished to point out our hypocrisy. Thanks ever so for assuming that we’re hypocrites. Sometimes a very simple wording change is all it takes for a question to go from an assumption of good faith by the questionee to an assumption of bad faith.

    Look, I get that it’s common for men, especially Nice Guys(TM) to make that exact complaint. I’ve seen it happen quite often. I can fully understand why you would assume it had happened here. However, it didn’t happen here, and so your question based on both its context and its wording, was highly offensive to the male readers and commenters of this blog.

    As I said before, not all men who want to get laid but can’t are Nice Guys(TM). Not all men who complain about not being able to get laid are Nice Guys(TM). And not all Nice Guys(TM) want to be valued for their personality alone while valuing women for their looks alone. The assumptino that they are is, while not universal, very common in the feminist community, and the purpose of this blog is, in my understanding, in part to correct these assumptions to enable greater dialogue between non-feminist men and feminists (both male and female).

  82. JE says:

    @John1923, way up there: What a terrible article. An excellent demonstration of how not to write about rape

  83. Tamen says:

    John1923: And when your faith in humanity is somewhat bolstered by the commentariat at Jezebel (they have come a long way since they bragged about how they had physically assaulted their boyfriends) you can notice that that Jezebel article you linked to has, despite most of the 167 comment being negative to the article, received 754 Facebook likes. Faith in humanity is such a brittle thing.

  84. noahbrand says:

    Oh. I erroneously assumed Brand was a pseudonym. My apologies.

    Nope. I daily face down the internet itself armed only with my real name and a variety of conventional armament. I understand why you’d assume otherwise, though; no offense taken. As it happens, though, Ozy has had no opportunity to gauge my raw sexual magnetism in person, as we’ve never physically met.

  85. jpsord says:

    @L

    It rarely ever means that they just think you’re aesthetically pleasing and felt like letting you know to boost your self-esteem.

    What do you think it normally means then?

  86. Tamen says:

    I am not from the US so your health care “system” baffles me. I am not sure if all the bruhaa surrounding the hearing on contraceptions with an all male panel and the reaction to Sandra Fluke’s testimony are in any way related to the ACA (Affordable Care Act), but it seems like an all
    male panel anyhow did didly squat for men: http://goodmenproject.com/contraception-2/feds-to-men-buy-your-own-aspirin-and-put-it-between-your-knees/

    For example: It covers contraception for women, but not for men. It covers Contraception Education and Counseling for women, but not for men.

  87. Flyingkal says:

    @Gudenuf

    A reddit woman explains how it feels to sexually desire a man. Yes, women have desires too!

    http://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/s572b/ladies_of_reddit_how_do_you_start_to_get_aroused/c4bav9n

    I don’t think anyone here’s ever denied that women, as most people, have desires too.
    The thing is what it does to your self-picture when you’re never the target of that desire.
    When you run into someone on the sidewalk and get the “Watch your steps you f*cking f*ck!” look. Or you try to run your arm down her arm or her back, and she just squirms away and start to recapture, in detail, the last time she had dinner with her mom instead…

  88. Flyingkal says:

    @ L and Daisy:
    Is a not-raised hand taken as a “no”?

    @Daisy: Ozy, I am also pretty surprised at the statements here. Looks still matter the *most* to people, I guess. (sigh) Very disappointing.
    I have a rather different interpretation, that affirmation of attraction is way more important than looks in itself.

  89. Flyingkal says:

    @Ozy

    …You guys have seriously never had the experience of thinking “meh” about a person, talking to them, and discovering that they’re ALL OF THE FUCKSEXY because of how cool and interesting and funny and kind they are?

    I’ve had it, yes.
    The question is, have anyone ever had it for me? No.
    So I don’t get the connection with Superglucose’s posts, if there ever was intended to be one?

  90. f. says:

    I just had to link y’all to this old Tom Junod piece about his father’s fashion tips:

    My father’s fashion tips: I’d listened to them all my life, and now that I was finding myself living by them, I wanted to tell them to the world, if only to understand where in the hell he got them; if only to understand how someone like my father can come to know, without a moment of hesitation or a speck of doubt, that the turtleneck is the most flattering thing a man can wear.

    http://www.gq.com/style/grooming/200706/fashion-generation-tips-national-magazine-award?printable=true

  91. L says:

    @Danny: Usually when I think of “unsolicited compliments”, the first thing that comes to mind are cat-calls, honestly. Maybe it’s my horridly low self-esteem, but I rarely ever consider compliments given to me by family (I see my real friends maybe once or twice a year now, so “friends” as a category in this context doesn’t exist) to be unsolicited. In my head, everyone feels obligated to tell me everyone in a while as a sort of maintainance to keep me from being miserable to be around.

    @Flyingkal: Yes.

  92. Flyingkal says:

    @ L: Yes.
    So, that’s a good thing, right?

  93. Flyingkal says:

    I’m curiuos as to the turn of events in the start of this thread, a pattern that (to me) seems to be quite common:
    One guy raising his voice to declare that he feels lonely and/or unattractive, because noone has in a very long time (or ever) told him that someone actually finds him attractive.
    Que, posters (some/many?) come in and declare that the generic or average woman has alot of attraction for the generic man, that they have no problems of speaking out regarding that attraction, and that attraction can have lots of sources other than looks alone.

    What raises my eyebrows about these posts is: What are you thinking? Are these posts actually meant to make the guy never getting a share of these (signs of attraction) feel better about himself?

  94. Flyingkal, my own opinion, with absolutely no proof except anecdotal accounts and my own observations, is that a typical “fat and ugly” girl (or one of “inappropriate” age, with a disability, whatever is regarded as catgegorically unattractive by mass culture and MOST IMPORTANTLY, his friends) can turn herself inside out letting a guy know she finds him attractive, and lots of times, he won’t even notice (or pretends not to).

    If this woman were attractive, he’d be tweeting his friends before their first meeting was over.
    The play “Fat Pig” was a big hit for a reason, you know.

    My point: this is not confined to men. And at least for men, there is a way out: The Tao of Steve.

    For heterosexual women? What is the way out? Anecdotally, it seems appearance is of crucial importance to men, more than it is for women. Women have a variety of “checklists” and men seem to have one or two. As I said, it has been ever thus.

    In terms of gender equality, this is something I would like to see change. Wouldn’t you? If not, why not?

  95. Schala says:

    “What raises my eyebrows about these posts is: What are you thinking? Are these posts actually meant to make the guy never getting a share of these (signs of attraction) feel better about himself?”

    He’s bound to feel like he’s left out of some giant conspiracy where people get complimented, and he doesn’t, because he’s below average by a far margin would be the first assumption.

  96. Danny says:

    Flyingkal I wonder about this sometimes too. Is the way women say those things a way of just shutting said guys out with the declaration that the only possible way he has never gotten such compliments is because he is flat out unattractive?

    I don’t think that serves to make him feel better but to make themselves s
    feel better

  97. Dan_Brodribb says:

    @ Danny ” When you go so long and never hear words that other people seem to take for granted it stings. It stings a lot. When you make it to your early 30s without ever once getting even a simple, “hey you’re cute” it weighs on you. Generic reassurances can only work for so long.”

    I’ve felt the same way. Often I still do. Some days it bothers me more than others.

    That said, the few times I have gotten those compliments all happened in my mid-thirties.

    It’s possible your best days may be ahead of you.

  98. debaser71 says:

    step 1: avoid 20 something year old females
    step 2: be yourself

  99. Flyingkal,

    “One guy raising his voice to declare that he feels lonely and/or unattractive, because noone has in a very long time (or ever) told him that someone actually finds him attractive. Que, posters (some/many?) come in and declare that the generic or average woman has alot of attraction for the generic man, that they have no problems of speaking out regarding that attraction, and that attraction can have lots of sources other than looks alone. What raises my eyebrows about these posts is: What are you thinking? Are these posts actually meant to make the guy never getting a share of these (signs of attraction) feel better about himself?”

    Well for one thing you’re unfairly isolating a specific part; is said declaration compounded with some sort of dig at women (ie, “you should be GRATEFUL!” or “hypergamy!!”, etc)? Also, perhaps somebody is genuinely trying to help by noting other sources of attraction in hopes he’ll recall times he’s been complimented on his humor/smarts/compassion/tastes – ever think of that? Maybe the person thinks that by dismantling assumptions by noting, hey, it isn’t necessarily what it’s cracked up to be, they’re helping him. It can also be the case that he has been complimented on his looks but dismisses them due to depression-related reasons (“she’s just being nice.”, etc). I’m guessing few readers are trained psychologists and it’s hardly fair to expect one to know the inner workings of a person’s mind or really much of anything from a post.

    I’m not doubting that people are genuinely hurt and probably putting everything through a negative filter. But it’s fucking ridiculous for Schala to expect the “some/many” posters/women to shoulder the burden of preventing these men from believing there is a “giant conspiracy where people get complimented, and he doesn’t, because he’s below average by a far margin” in good faith. Especially when that type of thinking calls for real help and Schala should damn well know that. I also find Danny’s assertion that “women” are just trying to “shut said guys out” to make themselves feel better (about what, Danny?) cynical and passive-aggressive.

  100. PetroniusArbiter says:

    @DaisyDeadhead
    You certainly have a point that very often when I hear a complaint by a guy about “noone wants to date me”, that translates to “i cannot find any women who is conventionally attractive enough to be improve my status with family/friends, while at the same time being attractive to me personally, emotionally compatible, etc. etc.”. So i get your point that it happens in both directions, and i agree. The part that i’m not sure about is what exactly way out do you think men have that women don’t? I looked up The Tao of Steve, and i think i understand roughly where you are going with this, but i can’t say that it would work for men any more it would work for women, in general.
    What needs to change most is the idea that there is this ideal woman, or a man, that everyone wants, and if you happen to be with someone who doesn’t quite fit that ideal, you are settling at best. Everyone has their own preferences, and while the majority of men/women will still prefer the busty model/muscular athlete or whatever the ideal is in the particular community in question, anyone who doesn’t shouldn’t have to deal with the added peer pressure. Unfortunately, as we are still mostly operating on ape social dynamics, it will probably take a while.

  101. PetroniusArbiter says:

    Something i forgot to mention – here in north America at least, a female will get complimented at least once in a while – if not genuinely, at least out of a courtesy, or kindness, or as an attempt to improve her spirits, something. My impression is that part of the complaint people are having here is that doesn’t happen to men. My original comment was along the lines, find something else to be proud of and to get compliments on. If you are male and do feel desirous of a compliment regarding your appearance though, you are shit out of luck. Looks are not expected to be important to men, and you are more likely to get mocked if you mention it then anything else.

  102. wolfy says:

    On a slightly different topic, over in the UK The Guardian has been repeating the real-men-don’t-get-ill message: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/15/barbara-ellen-postnatally-depressed-fathers

    I thought that referring to men with depression as ‘exhausting narcissists’ was actually one of the nicer comments in there.

  103. Dan_Brodribb says:

    PetroniusArbiter said “here in north America at least, a female will get complimented at least once in a while – if not genuinely, at least out of a courtesy, or kindness, or as an attempt to improve her spirits, something. My impression is that part of the complaint people are having here is that doesn’t happen to men.”

    This comment made me think of a thread on Feministe. http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/04/09/why-i-prefer-small-boobs-isnt-helping/

    Can’t help but compare that thread to this one. It seems like in both cases well-meaning people are treating others the way they would like to be treated. But other people aren’t us, and it’s causing hurt feelings, frustration, and resentment on both sides.

  104. L says:

    Flyingkal I wonder about this sometimes too. Is the way women say those things a way of just shutting said guys out with the declaration that the only possible way he has never gotten such compliments is because he is flat out unattractive?

    I don’t think that serves to make him feel better but to make themselves s
    feel better

    Way I see it, it’s like this:

    1. Try and make you feel better by noting that perhaps you have great qualities other than your looks
    2. Try and make you feel better by noting that getting unsolicited comments aren’t all they’re cracked up to be and can sometimes do the opposite of make you feel good
    3. Give you the compliments that you want to hear; obviously not genuine, and definitely falls under the category of ‘solicited’
    4. Ask for a photo so we can judge and either tell it like it is or possibly lie
    5. Shrug our shoulders and go “that really sucks, sorry nobody thinks you’re hot”

    #5, to me, sounds like the crappiest.

    Also, I’m now reminded of several conversation threads in the past about female sexual preferences and attraction, and I vaguely recall that lots of the menfolk generally found female preferences to be unfair for various reasons. (Whereas the male counterpart was largely found to be irrelevant or not problematic.)

  105. Danny says:

    Colette:
    I also find Danny’s assertion that “women” are just trying to “shut said guys out” to make themselves feel better (about what, Danny?) cynical and passive-aggressive.
    Make themselves feel better about the idea that in the realm of men vs women (yes it shouldn’t be that way but it currently is) there is no way that a guy’s misfortune in dating/relationships/sex/etc… could be anything other than his own creation. And I put that in the form of a question rather than a declaration for a reason.

    Also, perhaps somebody is genuinely trying to help by noting other sources of attraction in hopes he’ll recall times he’s been complimented on his humor/smarts/compassion/tastes – ever think of that?
    Here’s the thing about that. As I said above I have gotten compliments about those things before and they are nice to hear true enough. But at the same time I don’t think its too far out of the way for anyone to note that the distinct lack of compliments in certain areas, especially when its something that’s been lacking for a long time. I wouldn’t imagine its too much different from a woman that gets nothing but compliments on her looks but never anything on say how smart she is or how she is running her own company (no I’m not trying they are the exact same thing though).

    Also bear in mind that I’m not saying that women should read what I’m talking about here and suddenly switch over to making it a point to compliment a guy on his looks. More like, “It would be nice to hear something like that.” I suppose if it never happens there’s not much that I can do about it, but that doesn’t mean I should just clam up and never talk about it (I’ve been doing that for too long as it is).

    It can also be the case that he has been complimented on his looks but dismisses them due to depression-related reasons (“she’s just being nice.”, etc).
    Oddly enough I can honestly say that in the specific realm of looks that is not the case with me. I appreciate you trying to encourage a long hard look (kind of a “are you sure?”) but no not in this case.

  106. PetroniusArbiter
    I looked up The Tao of Steve, and i think i understand roughly where you are going with this, but i can’t say that it would work for men any more it would work for women, in general.

    In the movie, Steve’s first rule is “Be excellent” (the woman must see you being excellent at something)… and I realized when watching it, how true it was for women (we DO respond to men being excellent) and how this is NOT usually true for men… men are not instantly turned on by seeing a woman do something excellent. I have seen a few exceptions, but not very many.

    Whenever we get to this point, we can have gender equality, but not before.

    (I remembered The Tao of Steve when Don Draper’s wife got all turned on when he fixed the plumbing at the party.)

  107. Danny says:

    Thing is Daisy even though that might work, in my experience at least, its often regarded as showing off which is actually counterproductive if one is trying to be excellent to get a woman’s attention. But I can imagine it happening if for no other reason than guys are typically valued for what they do/don’t do

    But I do agree (if for no other reason than even with my experience in account its not universal) that that is a portion of what is needed for gender equality.

  108. coffee_queen says:

    @debaser: “step 1: avoid 20 something year old females” – do you mean in general or for Danny in particular? As a woman in that demographic I can’t help but feel a little miffed at somoene creating a monolith out of us and implying that we are so horrible that we ought to be avoided. :\ Have you had bad experiences with such women or are you being facetious? Curiosity is piqued.

    I tend to side with a lot of the people pointing out on here that men caring about being attractive is not something that gets a lot of social air time, and therefore is not often acted upon. On some level, though, being told “you’re hot” by someone is saying a bit more about the person giving you the compliment, in a way. Since each person’s turn-on’s are different, receiving an unsolicited compliment on one’s looks can be viewed as someone letting you know what their preferences are, and that you happen to fit them pretty well. After all, the person is speaking only for themselves, and is not acting as a Grand Spokesperson for the Universe In General.

    That said, I was in university before someone ever told me I looked nice, so the pain of growing up believing I was un-dateable and ugly and never going to find love helps me relate to people who have never received a compliment like that. :\ Verbalized feelings mean so much.. “Better open rebuke than hidden love.” ~ some Proverb or another in Proverbs lol

    On a side note, here is an actor whom I am extremely attracted to, but who is not necessarily conventionally attractive or “hot”: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001832/mediaindex For people too lazy to click on the link [j/k 🙂 ], it’s Same Waterston from Law and Order. I was skeptical about the show – a show about lawyers being interesting? Really? For an HOUR? – but then he walked onto the screen with that nose and those eyebrows and that suit and totally kicked ass, and I was hooked on him, and the show as a result. It’s why I wont’ watch any other Law and Order spin-off, because he’s not on it. I can’t explain why I find him attractive but I do and just roll with it no matter the raised eyebrows I get from family (although my twin shares my obsession, haha).

    Just sayin,’ women are capable of being attracted to more than Ryan Gosling or George Clooney or whoever else, y’know. 🙂

    I’d be curious to see which not conventionally “hot” celebrities/people who are famous for some reason other posters are attracted to. 🙂

  109. Danny says:

    John1923:
    # READ THIS SHOCKING ARTICLE AT JEZEBEL (Male Rape)
    http://jezebel.com/5901998/german-woman-tries-to-hold-sexhausted-man-prisoner-in-her-apartment

    Then read the All section of the comments, and have some of your faith in humanity restored.

    Look on the bright side. At least Jeff Fecke was able to call out how terrible it is, after the usual disclaimer to bear in mind that even though the topic at hand is about a male rape victim its majorly important to remember that women do indeed have it worse. He even put it in before even mentioning the specific article at Jezebel.

    http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2012/04/16/jezebel-continues-its-long-slow-decline/

  110. daelyte says:

    @DaisyDeadhead:
    “Flyingkal, my own opinion, with absolutely no proof except anecdotal accounts and my own observations, is that a typical “fat and ugly” girl (or one of “inappropriate” age, with a disability, whatever is regarded as categorically unattractive by mass culture and MOST IMPORTANTLY, his friends) can turn herself inside out letting a guy know she finds him attractive, and lots of times, he won’t even notice (or pretends not to).”

    My opinion is that she could be a conventionally attractive lingerie model, wearing said lingerie, throwing herself at the guy and 9 out of 10 he still won’t know she’s interested.

    Take a look at this guy:
    http://www.theattractionforums.com/general-discussion/129760-guys-we-seem-forgetting-simple-thing-mutual-seduction.html

    “If this woman were attractive, he’d be tweeting his friends before their first meeting was over.
    The play “Fat Pig” was a big hit for a reason, you know.”

    You mean as attractive as Kirsten Vangsness (who played Helen in Fat Pig btw)? I was heartbroken when I found out she had a girlfriend (which she since married). IMO she is a great example of how a “well fed” woman can be very attractive with the right style and personality. Or is that just me?

    “My point: this is not confined to men. And at least for men, there is a way out: The Tao of Steve.”

    The Rules predates The Tao of Steve by about 5 years. Apparently a major source of inspiration for some pickup artist stuff, yet it was Written For Women.

    “For heterosexual women? What is the way out? Anecdotally, it seems appearance is of crucial importance to men, more than it is for women. Women have a variety of “checklists” and men seem to have one or two. As I said, it has been ever thus.”

    Attraction Is Complicated. From men’s point of view appearance generally includes grooming, which can make a woman go up by as much as 4 points on the “hotness scale”. On top of that, one man’s 4 is another man’s 10.

    How does that work in practice? Well, if a woman wants to attract nerdy guys, thick rimmed “hipster glasses” works well (for either gender I’m told). This still falls under what most guys would consider to be appearance, yet how a woman chooses to dress and accessorize has more to do with her personality than weight, age or disability.

    Have you seen singers like Lady Gaga and Nicki Minaj without makeup, wig, and in dumpy clothes. How much of their appearance is artificial and temporary? It still works.

    “In terms of gender equality, this is something I would like to see change. Wouldn’t you? If not, why not?”

    Yes I would. I think it’s an information problem.

    Women need more information about what men find attractive, and how to approach men in a way that conveys their intentions clearly and accurately without scaring men off.

    Men need more information about what women find attractive, and how to approach women in a way that conveys their intentions clearly and accurately without scaring women off.

    As you can see, there’s no overlap at all. Men and women are completely different. :p

    We had a whole discussion in another thread about setting up a site with gender egalitarian dating advice, and a forum for people to share their insights. I was especially looking forward to seeing your opinion in particular given your experience with approaching men but no post ever materialized! Now I see you’ve been having problems with moderation, so maybe that’s why.

    Anyway I set up a forum. It’s not much but it’s a start.
    http://www.gamedruid.com/mutualseduction/

  111. PetroniusArbiter says:

    @DaisyDeadhead
    “and I realized when watching it, how true it was for women (we DO respond to men being excellent) and how this is NOT usually true for men… men are not instantly turned on by seeing a woman do something excellent.”
    I think we might be again having the issue of rather different demographics. I’m aware of the stereotype of men being only attracted to looks, and in fact feeling threatened by women been good at something (which is how i read “excellent” in this context). However, every single man that I have known well enough to have that kind of conversation with has mentioned something that really turns them on when woman is doing it or is knowledgeable in (sorry for the awkward sentence, but it is rather late). For me that happens to be performance – put a girl behind a mike, and if she happens to have good voice her – lets call it perceived hotness – might shoot up couple orders of magnitude.
    The reason i said it’s not going to work for men in general (at least no more than it’s going to work for women) is that whatever that area of excellence is will vary from person to person, even more so than personal preference in looks.

  112. JE says:

    “Also, I’m now reminded of several conversation threads in the past about female sexual preferences and attraction, and I vaguely recall that lots of the menfolk generally found female preferences to be unfair for various reasons. (Whereas the male counterpart was largely found to be irrelevant or not problematic.)”

    I didn’t get that feeling at all. The way I read it they were arguing that it wasn’t immoral, it being unfair was assumed. Given how much we’re told that male sexual preference is unfair from the moment we learn to walk it’s almost certain that most people in a discussion will believe it on atleast some levels

  113. Flyingkal says:

    First of all: “Queue”, not “Que”! Sorry about that…

    @DaisyDeadhead

    Flyingkal, my own opinion, with absolutely no proof except anecdotal accounts and my own observations, is that a typical “fat and ugly” girl (or one of “inappropriate” age, with a disability, whatever is regarded as catgegorically unattractive by mass culture and MOST IMPORTANTLY, his friends) can turn herself inside out letting a guy know she finds him attractive, and lots of times, he won’t even notice (or pretends not to).

    So what you basically are saying is that guys with feelings of eternal loneliness have it all wrong? They, at least the vast majority of them, actually get their share of positive attention and attraction. They just (choose to!) ignore it because the source of the attention isn’t attrcative enough, or for other reasons unknown?

    And at least, men have a way out, women don’t. Women have it worst, always?

    At least, that’s what what you’re saying sounds like to me.

    In terms of gender equality, this is something I would like to see change. Wouldn’t you? If not, why not?

    What I would like to see is that every somewhat decent person longing for positive attention, maybe a partner and maybe a relationship, would somehow find a matching person to fulfil each other’s needs.

    What i don’t like to see is individual people’s personal problems getting dismissed by throwing statistics and probabilities in their faces.

  114. Flyingkal says:

    @Colette Wedding, and L:
    Well. If several posters in situations somewhat similar to Superglucose, but independent of each other, are experiencing said comments to be coming more from a “high horses”-position than from a pool of well-meaning support. Then shouldn’t they be considered to maybe, just maybe, be worded slightly defferent in order to get the intended supportive effect?

  115. Flyingkal says:

    I’m just trying to say that choise of words are important.
    And I also know that my own are far from perfect.

  116. Flyingkal says:

    @Daelyte:

    My opinion is that she could be a conventionally attractive lingerie model, wearing said lingerie, throwing herself at the guy and 9 out of 10 he still won’t know she’s interested

    Do you have any opinion about how conventionally attractive a guy has to be for said lingerie model to throw herself at him…?

  117. debaser71 says:

    coffee_queen, I’ve spoken about this here before but, for me, when I was in my twenties I realized that my female peers were not the types of women I wanted to have a relationship with. Anyway I met my wife when she was 36 and I was 27. I’m now 40. I recommend that any young man who is having difficulties with relationships should, at least, try going to places and meeting women who are past that ‘club-hopping’ / ‘hot to trot’ phase. Meet women who are already established and have a mature outlook on life. I was tired of meeting (or trying to meet) ‘goofy college aged girls’. I found that older women were mentally more mature and most times had a demure style that I liked. With this said I am certain there were younger women who’d fit my tastes but I wasn’t meeting them. I can not stress enough how getting out of that ‘young persons’ or ‘pre-adulthood’ phase was so impactful on my life. Other people’s mileage may vary, and that’s cool.

  118. Danny says:

    I’m sure a lot of people feel that there are things about them which were complimented on. But unlike other things a desire to have one’s look complimented on seems to illicit a special reaction. The whole “looks aren’t everything” response comes out in a tine that seems to say, “something is wrong with you for wanting compliments on your looks”.

    Is there something inherently wrong with wanting to hear such things?

  119. superglucose says:

    Feminist groups are really quite the only place on earth where a man saying “Man, I feel really ugly and undesired and could use a pick-me-up” is met with “well you’re a damn hypocrite so serves you right.”

    Everyone else just say “yes, you’re ugly and undesired. Isn’t that funny… you think you might not be?”

  120. Flyingkal says:

    Danny,
    My take on that is that a compliment (for me) doesn’t even have to be about looks, as long as it indicates some sort of attractíve interest that’s just not common courtesy.

    I’d much rather have a “You know, when you wear that/say this/do that/look at me that way, I kinda start floating 4 inches above the ground…”
    Than a “You know, you’re kinda cute/good-looking/have a nice (whatever), but you’re just not my type…”

  121. AB says:

    @PetroniusArbiter:

    Something i forgot to mention – here in north America at least, a female will get complimented at least once in a while – if not genuinely, at least out of a courtesy, or kindness, or as an attempt to improve her spirits, something. My impression is that part of the complaint people are having here is that doesn’t happen to men.

    Why the distinction between ‘female’ and ‘men’?

    On a related note, there seems to a difference between compliments from/to men and women, especially in regards to appearance. From what I can gather, women are usually assumed to be attracted to men based on worthiness more than physical attractiveness, while men are assumed to generally have a lower opinion of women, but be more physically attracted to them due to a higher libido.

    Complimenting people’s appearance is often seen as closer to expressing sexual interest than complimenting, say, their taste in furniture. It therefore becomes a more serious matter for women to do, because they’re assumed to place more importance into it, while men can actually use it as an insult. For instance, one of the insults Ozy mentioned getting when zie wrote about what men called zir was “she’s stupid but at least she’s hot”. I’ve heard guys say similar things about some women being good for nothing but fucking, or being willing to bang a woman as long as she kept her mouth shut. If a woman attempted similar insults against men, chances are the targets’ reactions would be “So she thinks I’m hot” or “What a slut”. Admitting sexual attraction to women is seen as a bigger weakness, probably because sexual attraction is seen as more significant for women.

    That’s why men have been able to talk about women screwing them over (and make stories about men being doomed for falling in love with the wrong women) for millennia, without being told that everything bad women do is ultimately because men reward their abusive behaviour, but when women do the same, the “women like jerks” meme is immediately activated. There are even sites where men gleefully talk about women who’re murdered by their violent boyfriends/husbands as getting what they deserved – because if they’d just married a good man, it wouldn’t have happened. Because female sexual attraction is seen as condoning every aspect of the subject of their attraction as a person, while male sexual attraction is seen as a physical reflex without any ethical implications (hence there’s the assumption that good men could be attracted these women).

    I think part of the reason for this is that it benefits men immensely as pursuers. If women are generally frigid and practically unable to feel physical attraction, except in regards to their Twue Wuv, it lessens the impact of female rejection. She’s no longer rejecting you because there’s something wrong with you; she rejects you because she’s programmed to be unreasonably picky. It also heightens the feeling of success when she’s attracted to you, because it means you’re extra special and worthy (that could be a reason for why men engage in slut-shaming – a slut who doesn’t sleep with them is a bigger insult, and one who do is a smaller compliment). On the other hand, as long as men are seen as having sex with the same emotional commitment as when they’re scratching their backs, and find women attractive as a matter of reflex more than true appreciation, it gives women less power when men approach them, because the approach itself (as well as any admittance of physical attraction) is seen as more of a routine and less of a compliment.

    It seems relatively common for men, especially younger ones, to (often jokingly, but in a “funny because it’s true” way) stretch how low their standards are when it comes to sex, and how little it means to them. I also suspect most people here have heard guys combine expressions of sexual interest with expressions of contempt (e.g. “Sure I’d bang her, with a bag over her head”, or “she’s only good for one thing/we all know why she got hired”), an attitude which is reflected in the number of female-targeted insults coupling sexual attractiveness with a negative attribute , such as stupidity (bimbo) or immorality (whore), not to mention catcalls and similar forms of sexual attention not necessarily meant to inspire a positive reaction. And after having seen it on multiple occasions, I couldn’t help wondering if it wasn’t at least partly a way for guys to say “You’re not that special”, “It doesn’t mean that much to me”, “Just because I’m more attracted to you than you are to me, you’re not above me”.

    And as a strategy for dealing with the difficulty of approaching, I fully understand it, but as a way to encourage women to see positive remarks about their appearance as flattering, and extend the same courtesy to men, it works the other way around. Complimenting men on their appearance becomes weird and awkward because of the implied interest (if women are unattached to most men, compliments must mean something), and considering how much (some) men undermine the value of their own compliments (because being seen as attractive by a man can just as well be an insult), I’m not sure it occurs to most women that men would want these compliments themselves. Especially not for their own sake, rather than as an indication that the woman is sexually interested.

  122. L says:

    @Daisy, re: “be excellent”: I’ve experienced this first-hand my entire life. In public with my friends, during parties, outings, etc., I was always doing something, always keeping busy. Often times playing the role of facilitator or leader for the group/gathering. I remember when I was about 18 or 19 I asked my best friend the morning after a big birthday party for her boyfriend why I never got approached ever (I guess this was inspired by my noticing some guy at the party eyeing me all night or something), and she said I was probably seen as intimidating. Uh, how, exactly? By being lively, cracking jokes and keeping busy instead of lounging around and preening? Yuck. Glad I was weeding out those kinds of guys just by being myself. Probably has to do with teenagers being insecure and wanting an easy lay instead of a complicated person.

    @debaser: Wow, something I actually agree with you on. Not in the “20-something women” are universally and inherently not worth dating way, but that by and large in the post-college years young people of all genders have no fucking idea who they are or what they want. And if you’re not looking for that kind of chaos, then look to a different age group. I’m 23 and married a 33 year old because I have zero interest in having a typical 20’s. (And also he’s amazing.)

    @Flyingkal: I dunno, I’d have honestly said the same thing to anyone else going through the same thing. Unfortunately, I guess I have lookist privilege, so I can’t really relate and have to rely on a script. I should add that there is absolutely nothing wrong with expressing that disappointment, but the natural inclination is to turn a post like that into a discussion if it’s posted on an open forum. And I don’t think that women have it worse always, but with this sort of stuff, especially if you’re talking about heterosexual people that inevitably are looking to the opposite sex for outside validation, men’s problems and women’s problems in that arena are sort of inextricably linked. There are two parts to “I wish a girl would tell me I’m hot”: the “I”, and the “girl”.

    @AB: Huh, hadn’t thought of it like that before.

  123. AB says:

    @L:

    @Daisy, re: “be excellent”: I’ve experienced this first-hand my entire life. In public with my friends, during parties, outings, etc., I was always doing something, always keeping busy. Often times playing the role of facilitator or leader for the group/gathering. I remember when I was about 18 or 19 I asked my best friend the morning after a big birthday party for her boyfriend why I never got approached ever (I guess this was inspired by my noticing some guy at the party eyeing me all night or something), and she said I was probably seen as intimidating.

    Same here. I got “I think you scare them. You read too much, know too much, and talk too much about what you know”. As depressing as it is, lessening yourself in some way and focusing on the things you’re bad at over the things you’re good at, can be a surprisingly effective strategy for straight girls, especially when you’re younger. It’s one of the things I sometimes envy men. As much as the success-myth can suck, I think I could have benefitted immensely from having my non-sexual success work to enhance my sexual attractiveness, rather than experiencing the two working against each other.

  124. daelyte says:

    @L:
    “In public with my friends, during parties, outings, etc., I was always doing something, always keeping busy. Often times playing the role of facilitator or leader for the group/gathering. I remember when I was about 18 or 19 I asked my best friend the morning after a big birthday party for her boyfriend why I never got approached ever (I guess this was inspired by my noticing some guy at the party eyeing me all night or something), and she said I was probably seen as intimidating. Uh, how, exactly? By being lively, cracking jokes and keeping busy instead of lounging around and preening?”

    Being lively, cracking jokes and keeping busy instead of lounging around is attractive, that’s not at all the problem.

    Here’s what I think. By being constantly surrounded by other women, you were making yourself unapproachable. Getting rejected by one woman hurts enough as it is, but getting rejected by a whole group is unthinkable. Add to that, your friends are likely to be more critical of your would-be suitors than you would be, thus increasing the chances of rejection.

    This guy eyeing you all night was probably waiting for an opening, a moment when you were alone and not obviously too busy to talk, but it either never came or the window was too short and he missed it.

    @AB:
    “Same here. I got “I think you scare them. You read too much, know too much, and talk too much about what you know”.”

    I don’t think that’s accurate for most men. In fact there’s plenty of guys with a hard-on for confident nerdy girls.

    “As depressing as it is, lessening yourself in some way and focusing on the things you’re bad at over the things you’re good at, can be a surprisingly effective strategy for straight girls, especially when you’re younger.”

    Like much conventional dating advice, this works for the wrong reasons. Looking like you need help, even if you’re only pretending, can give a man an excuse to approach.

    You don’t have to look dumb or weak in the process however. You can ask if anybody knows where to find an eisenberg compensator around here, a guy can look smart by giving you the answer you seek, while you still look smart for knowing what an eisenberg compensator is and what to do with it.

    Or you can just walk up and talk to the guy. Ask him what kind of movies he likes, and mention some upcoming movie you’d like to go see. Great opening for him to ask you out to said movie.

    “It’s one of the things I sometimes envy men. As much as the success-myth can suck, I think I could have benefited immensely from having my non-sexual success work to enhance my sexual attractiveness, rather than experiencing the two working against each other.”

    It’s mostly reversed if you’re the one approaching. Looks are less important but you’ll be judged much more based on your personality.

  125. Danny says:

    I was trying to think of how to say something to the effect of “gender roles play a big part in this” and AB said it better than I could have. Nice.

    Flyingkal:
    My take on that is that a compliment (for me) doesn’t even have to be about looks, as long as it indicates some sort of attractíve interest that’s just not common courtesy.
    I can see that. For me its a matter of never getting complimented on my looks so that’s where my desires lie. And while an indication of attractive interest would be nice its really not that big a deal for me.

    In fact I’d be fine with what you say here:
    “You know, you’re kinda cute/good-looking/have a nice (whatever), but you’re just not my type…”
    I’m cool if I’m not their type. But the compliment would be nice. I don’t think its that much of a stretch to think that a person that says that really does think you do look nice, and just finds other things about you that they see about you they would be incompatible with.

    AB:
    It’s one of the things I sometimes envy men. As much as the success-myth can suck, I think I could have benefitted immensely from having my non-sexual success work to enhance my sexual attractiveness, rather than experiencing the two working against each other.
    Green grass and all that.

  126. L says:

    @daelyte: I’m just gonna have to say that you don’t really know the situations, what my friends are like, what their friends are like, what the get togethers were like, etc., so given that, your explanation is kind of off. You’re just gonna have to trust me on this one. And honestly, I’m not chalking it up to be a “all, or even most, men feel this way”, I’m saying it’s more a maturity thing. Teenage boys are easily intimidated by girls that have strong personalities and don’t fall all over themselves whenever a dude talks to them. /personal anecdote

    @Danny:

    Green grass and all that.

    That assumes that people don’t have different personality types and preferred gender roles (or none at all). I am a pursuer… just not a pursuer of people. I think if I had been a boy, doing the things I wanted to do would have been met with just that much less resistance. And yet, I have still been conditioned to fear and loathe (perceived) failure just as much as any man. I’m kind of getting the brunt of both worlds as it is.

  127. daelyte says:

    @Flyingkal:
    “Do you have any opinion about how conventionally attractive a guy has to be for said lingerie model to throw herself at him…?”

    Attraction is complicated. The odds are better if you’re attractive to many women of course, but the preferences of a lingerie model are as likely to vary as any other woman, and some women’s preferences are far outside the norm. Maybe your big hooked nose reminds her of that teacher she had a crush on in high school, back when she was an ugly duckling, and it drives her crazy if you also wear an argyle sweater.

    Just like women, a man’s looks can also be greatly enhanced by his sense of style and the way he moves. What you wear can signal things about you, so dressing like Steve Urkel will attract women who appreciate nerdiness for example.

  128. Danny says:

    L:
    That assumes that people don’t have different personality types and preferred gender roles (or none at all). I am a pursuer… just not a pursuer of people. I think if I had been a boy, doing the things I wanted to do would have been met with just that much less resistance. And yet, I have still been conditioned to fear and loathe (perceived) failure just as much as any man. I’m kind of getting the brunt of both worlds as it is.
    No just pointing out how someone sees how “if ____ were ___….” there would have been some positive change in their life.

    AB is speaking of “non sexual success” and “sexual attraction” and how she would have benefited if they happened under different circumstances. I’m really not trying to knock AB when I said that. Hell I’m sure the combination of those two things would have played out differently to some sort of benefit that I don’t have now if something else had changed.

  129. Flyingkal says:

    AB, regarding compliments.
    I hear what you’re saying.
    But what I picked up on in this discussion was the posts about how women are actually giving compliments to men they are attracted to, and have seemingly no problems doing so.

  130. Flyingkal says:

    @L
    First, thanks for your answer.

    Second, regarding the “always doing things, always being busy.”
    I’m not claiming to know your situation or your frineds, but I think you might be misunderstanding Daelyte a bit? My take on this is that, as a teenage boy, I think it’s rather difficult and probably not just a little bit intimidating to try and first get the attention and then to have some sort of conversation with someone who’s all over the place checking on different things.
    Oftentimes, it has nothing to do with being afraid of “strong, independent girls”, or expecting them to fall over themselves.

  131. coffee_queen says:

    Okay, total derail but a thought occurred to me:
    Why do we compliment each other anyway?
    Seriously! I mean, what’s in it for Person A to tell Person B “You’re funny/hot/smart/awesome/etc.”?

    On one level it’s kind of arrogant of Person A to think that Person B’s day will be made better just because Person A gave them a compliment, if that makes sense. :\ Especially when it comes to unsolicited compliments from strangers or people-you-know-on-sight-but-are-not-well-acquainted-with.

    I know when I compliment my friends and family, it’s because I know they value my thoughts to some extent, and would be happy to hear “your outfit is cute” or “wow you draw so well!” from me. Sometimes though after getting compliments from people I don’t know well, I can’t help but wonder, why? I’m a suspicious moron though, lol, so maybe it’s just me wondering what motivates people to give compliments, but does anyone else have any thoughts/theories? 🙂

  132. Danny,

    “Make themselves feel better about the idea that in the realm of men vs women (yes it shouldn’t be that way but it currently is) there is no way that a guy’s misfortune in dating/relationships/sex/etc… could be anything other than his own creation. And I put that in the form of a question rather than a declaration for a reason.”

    If you’d read what those women were saying then you might realize that explanation makes zero sense since to begin with since such compliments generally aren’t considered a “fortunate” thing nor linked to dating/relationships/sex (and if so, not in a positive way). Secondly, since my objection was to ascribing negative motives to women for not responding the desired way (not to mention expecting too much from posters on a blog), and I noted that some men’s declarations may be compounded with a dig at women, it is worth noting your response is along the lines of exactly to what I was referring.

    “Here’s the thing about that. As I said above I have gotten compliments about those things before and they are nice to hear true enough. But at the same time I don’t think its too far out of the way for anyone to note that the distinct lack of compliments in certain areas, especially when its something that’s been lacking for a long time. I wouldn’t imagine its too much different from a woman that gets nothing but compliments on her looks but never anything on say how smart she is or how she is running her own company (no I’m not trying they are the exact same thing though).”

    But my point isn’t about people noting the lack of compliments. It’s that when people did reply and it didn’t meet a certain criteria, you/others blame posters/women for not giving somebody the validation they’re not asking for, scolded them for not “helping” based on what wasn’t said coupled with what one thinks their motives are, and attributing their replies to some misandrist dysfunction – all bad faith.

  133. daelyte says:

    @coffee_queen:
    “Guys are sexy! For the very reason that they are guys! I bet a lot of people feel this way.”

    I never get tired of hearing stuff like this. I find it comforting to be reminded that women want men too, and that dating is not a zero-sum game.

    “Why do we compliment each other anyway?”

    Humans are social animals. When everyone around us looks depressed, it gets us down. Making people happy tends to cheer us up.

    Plus there’s the whole “paying it forward” thing. People who receive compliments might be more likely to give some out, and that might have an effect on the whole community.

    Besides, what does a compliment cost us anyway?

    @Flyingkal:
    “I’m not claiming to know your situation or your friends, but I think you might be misunderstanding Daelyte a bit? My take on this is that, as a teenage boy, I think it’s rather difficult and probably not just a little bit intimidating to try and first get the attention and then to have some sort of conversation with someone who’s all over the place checking on different things.”

    Yes exactly, and even if L doesn’t have that particular problem, other women may benefit from knowing this.

  134. Danny says:

    Colette:
    If you’d read what those women were saying then you might realize that explanation makes zero sense since to begin with since such compliments generally aren’t considered a “fortunate” thing nor linked to dating/relationships/sex (and if so, not in a positive way).
    Whether they are linked to dating/relationships/sex or not (and from what I’m understanding the expression of attraction does sometimes indicate an interest in such things, but not always). And as for the compliments themselves some actually do feel a bit fortunate to receive them. Well if a given guy is expressing not getting them then my question was were some of the women that are quick replying with things like “but women do find men attractive and say they do” in order to reassure themselves that it must be him since he doesn’t get such compliments.

    Secondly, since my objection was to ascribing negative motives to women for not responding the desired way (not to mention expecting too much from posters on a blog), and I noted that some men’s declarations may be compounded with a dig at women, it is worth noting your response is along the lines of exactly to what I was referring.
    Eariler in the thread I was ascribing (which I agree was wrong) but as I’ve been saying later on I’m asking it as a question.

    It’s that when people did reply and it didn’t meet a certain criteria, you/others blame posters/women for not giving somebody the validation they’re not asking for, scolded them for not “helping” based on what wasn’t said coupled with what one thinks their motives are, and attributing their replies to some misandrist dysfunction – all bad faith.
    I think I see what’s happening here.

    When asking for said validation its considered wrong in the form of fishing for compliments or showing off (thus thinking that if they don’t ask for it it will more likely come). When not asking for it and still not getting it one wonders what’s wrong. When it comes to things like this numbers play a big part in it. What are the odds that one will cross paths with someone that will express the compliments they would like to have?

    Well when one goes a very long time with that answer being zero it can become easy to think that its more than the odds at play (I wonder if this is because of the idea that “the odds” are far too random to produce an absolute zero or near absolute zero, especially over a very long period of time like decades).

    Interesting.

    But still I wonder though when pointing out the lack of compliments why the declaration that “____ likes ____ and they say it often”?

    And misandry? No it would be more disregard than hatred.

  135. coffee_queen says:

    @daelyte: “I never get tired of hearing stuff like this. I find it comforting to be reminded that women want men too, and that dating is not a zero-sum game.”

    Haha, my friends and sister would likely make you smile with the way we talk about how sexy guys are. 🙂 Like stopping mid-conversation and blurting out, “Hey there’s a cute guy over there!”

    “Humans are social animals. When everyone around us looks depressed, it gets us down. Making people happy tends to cheer us up.

    Plus there’s the whole “paying it forward” thing. People who receive compliments might be more likely to give some out, and that might have an effect on the whole community.

    Besides, what does a compliment cost us anyway?”

    Good points! Especially the paying it forward thing. It cheers me up to make someone else happy, even if it’s a simple “cute shoes” comment. I agree too that it costs us nothing, though I was trying to be philosophical, not like to undermine compliment giving or anything. Fail tone-deaf Internet, fail. Of course I might be misinterpreting your tone in that line too. :\ Fail me, fail? 😀

    OTOH I can’t help sometimes feeling guilty for wanting to cheer myself up by being nice to someone. You know, doing something kind with Impure motives and all. :\ ‘Course I can guilt trip like nobody’s business so I could be the only one worrying about the Ethical Considerations of Compliments.

    “@Flyingkal:
    “I’m not claiming to know your situation or your friends, but I think you might be misunderstanding Daelyte a bit? My take on this is that, as a teenage boy, I think it’s rather difficult and probably not just a little bit intimidating to try and first get the attention and then to have some sort of conversation with someone who’s all over the place checking on different things.”

    Yes exactly, and even if L doesn’t have that particular problem, other women may benefit from knowing this.”

    I can’t help but wonder what the happy medium between women sitting and preening and doing nothing at a party/event and flitting about enjoying the sights and company would be that would enable a guy to “approach.” Or why the burden seems mainly to be on women to make sure they are behaving in an “approachable” manner. I don’t do parties so again this is mostly me being theoretical, but it seems like if a person really truly honestly wants to talk to someone, they’d put in a little extra effort to find a way to talk to the person (without resorting to stalking of course, haha). Although I do agree, it is intimidating trying to get someone’s attention when they seem occupied already with other things.

    I want to be clear that I’m not criticizing, just wondering “out loud.” 🙂

  136. Danny says:

    Any cooks in the house?

  137. daelyte says:

    @coffee_queen:
    “OTOH I can’t help sometimes feeling guilty for wanting to cheer myself up by being nice to someone.”

    It’s not a zero-sum game. 🙂

    “I can’t help but wonder what the happy medium between women sitting and preening and doing nothing at a party/event and flitting about enjoying the sights and company would be that would enable a guy to “approach.””

    IMO all it takes is a short moment away from your friends. You can skip the sitting and preening, and you can still enjoy the sights.

    Every so often, let’s say once an hour, get up and go for a walk. Maybe you need a fresh drink, or you’re just stretching your legs. Pause somewhere, alone (at least away from your friends), for maybe 10 seconds plus whatever time a guy would need to cross the room and come say hi. During that time you can scan the room to see if anybody’s looking, sip your drink, lick your ice cream, do a little dance, watch the show, play with a yoyo, burp, fart, whatever. Just so long as it looks like a good time to interrupt it’s all good.

    If the guy was obsessing over you and waiting for a window of opportunity, this is as good as he can reasonably expect. If you notice a guy is looking at you during this, you could also make eye contact and smiling, which I think should be enough encouragement for even most shy guys.

    “Or why the burden seems mainly to be on women to make sure they are behaving in an “approachable” manner.”

    Because most women are taught that they should sit and preen instead of approaching. If a man wants to be approached, the same advice should help as well. A woman is less likely to approach while he’s sitting with his fratboy drinking buddies yelling at a sports game.

    Behaving in a more approachable manner improves a person’s odds of being approached, and widens the pool of candidates to choose from.

  138. daelyte says:

    For men and women wanting some feedback concerning their looks…

    How about posting photos on sites like “Hot or Not”, to get a crowdsourced rating?

    You can even try different poses and styles, find out what looks good on you.

  139. coffee_queen says:

    @daelyte: Great response! You’ve obviously put a lot of thought into this. 🙂 Me, I fail at dating because I fail to distinguish the difference between “friendly” and “flirty” 99% of the time and tend to talk myself out of believing I’m being flirted with the 1% of the time I think, hey, maybe he’s flirting!

    “During that time you can scan the room to see if anybody’s looking, sip your drink, lick your ice cream, do a little dance, watch the show, play with a yoyo, burp, fart, whatever. Just so long as it looks like a good time to interrupt it’s all good.” – LOL. This made me smile and literally laugh out loud.. 🙂

  140. FlyingKal says:

    @coffee_queen: I can’t help but wonder what the happy medium between women sitting and preening and doing nothing at a party/event and flitting about enjoying the sights and company would be that would enable a guy to “approach.”

    It seems to me that the space in between is a sliding scale, so there should be plenty of room to find a “medium”. But since I’m a total failure at flirting I wouldn’t dare trying to tell someone where the “happy” part is 🙂

    Thanks to Daelyte for an, in my opinion, excellent and thought-out answer.

  141. daelyte says:

    @coffee_queen:
    “Great response! You’ve obviously put a lot of thought into this. :)”

    I wrote it off the top of my head, mostly based off what some FPUAs wrote on PUA forums. I know next to nothing about dating. 😳

    “Me, I fail at dating because I fail to distinguish the difference between “friendly” and “flirty” 99% of the time and tend to talk myself out of believing I’m being flirted with the 1% of the time I think, hey, maybe he’s flirting!”

    I’m worse. Thanks to AS, most of the time I can’t even tell the difference between friendly and hostile, how could I ever recognize flirty? 😥

    @Flyingkal:
    “It seems to me that the space in between is a sliding scale, so there should be plenty of room to find a “medium”. But since I’m a total failure at flirting I wouldn’t dare trying to tell someone where the “happy” part is.”

    I would. The happy part is when you’ve found what you’re looking for. 😀

  142. JE says:

    “Or why the burden seems mainly to be on women to make sure they are behaving in an “approachable” manner.”

    Because it’s assumed the women will not approach. Which isn’t true of all women, but it’s true of alot of them. Enough so that it’s probably not worth it for a guy to make himself more approachable.

  143. daelyte says:

    @JE:
    “Because it’s assumed the women will not approach. Which isn’t true of all women, but it’s true of alot of them. Enough so that it’s probably not worth it for a guy to make himself more approachable.”

    While often true, I can see two major exceptions.

    1. Some venues might have high numbers of non-traditional women, like say feminist groups. Such women are more likely to approach, thus being approachable could be a viable strategy for a man in that context. 🙂

    2. If a guy takes it to extremes, he can have women approach him out of simple curiosity. An example of that is Mystery and his fuzzy hat, a technique he calls “peacocking”. 8)

  144. L says:

    @Daelyte (and I guess @Flyingkal too): Good suggestions… for the gal that’s interested in being approached! I remember initially asking out of more of a clinical curiosity, because being approached by guys in public and recreational settings was what the narrative always was. Personally, I never went looking for it because ace-spectrum (I’d have rather gotten caught up playing DDR for hours than worry about giving a friend of a friend of a friend the opportunity to approach). Maybe there’s something about me that tells people right off the bat that I’m uninterested?

    And yeah, the people I have a history of hanging out with are pretty approachable all around and not particularly vocal about sexuality and things. The girls are loud and rambunctious and the boys are generally on the quieter and less typically masculine end. So I think your #1 situation definitely applies there.

    @coffee_queen: I would also say “count me in!” with the whole liking men for being men thing, but with the usual caveats that come from being non-heteronormative, fetish’d, and generally androphilic… basically anyone that presents as masculine can merit some kink attraction from me. :B

    @Danny:

    When asking for said validation its considered wrong in the form of fishing for compliments or showing off

    It’s definitely a double-edged sword. Men aren’t allowed to fish because it belies emotional weakness and/or vanity, and women are allowed to fish because they’re emotionally weak and/or vain. It’s OK for the one to seek outside validation for something because their existence is supposed to be defined by what others think, and it’s wrong for the other because they’re supposed to be individualistic, strong, and their worth is determined by the (social) obstacles they overcome.

  145. JE says:

    “(I’d have rather gotten caught up playing DDR for hours than worry about giving a friend of a friend of a friend the opportunity to approach).”
    I think the advice was meant for someone who actually wanted to be approached for their own sake rather than for the sake of the potential approacher

  146. L says:

    @JE: Yeah, obviously. I was musing aloud that maybe my fundamental disinterest, despite being aware of how things were “supposed” to go was something guys could smell a mile away or not.

  147. daelyte says:

    @L:
    Yeah probably. Not even so much intentional disinterest as lacking signals of interest. Women with aspergers often have a hard time getting guys to approach, even when they are interested, because of all the non-verbal signals they’re not putting out.

  148. Schala says:

    “@L:
    Yeah probably. Not even so much intentional disinterest as lacking signals of interest. Women with aspergers often have a hard time getting guys to approach, even when they are interested, because of all the non-verbal signals they’re not putting out.”

    I apparenly put too many signals. People will interpret my being open and friendly as flirty, because maybe it is in wide society, but it’s not what I intended. And it wasn’t something like sitting on someone’s lap either.

    So either they think I’m interested, or they give up on me because I appear to flirt with everyone who has a heartbeat.

  149. daelyte says:

    @Schala:
    I’ve given this some thought, and I’m wondering if maybe you’re making too much eye contact?

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