Education Fails Boys

There’s a nice bold statement to kick things off. What’s the evidence for this?

Part 1: The Boring Statistics Bit

If you’re short on time or attention span, you might want to skip to the infographic at the end of this section. But if you’re still with me, let’s dive right in…

First, there’s a gender gap (with boys at the disadvantage) of nearly 20% even in primary schools, and of 7% at GCSE level — the exams that all children in England, Wales and Northern Ireland are expected to take, marking the end of mandatory education.

Those hoping to go to university will generally stay on for another two years to take A-levels — these determine which universities will accept you onto their courses. At this stage, girls outperformed boys in every subject except modern languages, taking more subjects and achieving higher grades. Unsurprisingly therefore, more girls go on to fill university places (49% vs 38%). Amongst those actually completing an undergraduate degree, women outnumber men 1.3:1, and are more likely to obtain 1st-class and 2.1 (“upper seconds”) degrees while men are more likely to obtain 2.2 (“lower seconds”) or 3rd-class degrees (yes, we have a slightly eccentric classification system here).

Notable throughout many of these reports is that there’s often an exception for a narrow range of subjects in which boys still have the edge. There’s much hand-wringing about these “STEM” subjects (science, technology, engineering, mathematics — although this is slightly a misnomer, since it doesn’t apply to all areas of science). It’s worth remembering, then, that these figures, showing women far in the lead, include and are thus reduced by, the effects of the gender gap in the STEM fields. People are working hard to close that gap, and I certainly agree this gap should be closed — but when it is, if nothing is done about every other field of study, then the boys are going to be even more severely behind.

(It’s worth noting, though, that while boys definitely make up the majority of those choosing to take STEM subjects — except biology — girls are still ahead in terms of achieving the top grades. More on this in the infographic.)

Perhaps it’s just my country? Let’s look at some figures from the US Department of Education’s National Center for Education Statistics. These are really interesting because they go back to 1869(!) and nicely show the progression over time, as well as predictions for the future based on current trends.

So back in the 19th century I’m sure you’ll be shocked, shocked to read that men out-achieved women in obtaining undergraduate degrees, nearly 6:1. I’m actually a little surprised that as many as 1,378 women had the opportunity to obtain those degrees in the US back in 1869, but hey, go them! Anyway, if we look at the middle of the 20th century, we see that the M:F ratio is still as high as 3.1:1, but over the course of the next two decades, huge strides were made, with the ratio down to 1.8:1 by the start of the 60s, then 1.3:1 by the start of the 70s. Not parity yet, but making progress.

During the 70s, there was a slow but steady balancing-out, until by 1980 it had reached 1.01:1 — just a tiny tiny skew in favour of men. But as we can see, it didn’t stop there: By 1981, the bias was 1.01:1 in favour of women, and continued to grow. Again, slowly at first, taking the entire rest of the decade to hit a 1.1:1 bias in favour of women. But the bias accelerated, until by the present day, it’s more than 1.3:1 in favour of women — in other words, men now have the same status at university, as women did in the late 1960s!

Is it just undergraduate degrees? Nope. At masters degree level, the effect is even more profound. Again, we can see the historical record of inequities against women. Again, we see huge strides made from the 50s onwards, with equality achieved in the 1980s. And again, we see women pull ahead, except here the bias is even sharper: by the time we reach the present day, the most recent actual (non-predictive) figure shows women are outnumbering men by 54%!

What about at PhD level? Here, interestingly, things are a little different. Women didn’t achieve equality until 2007, which is pretty shocking when you think about it. Of course, you would expect some time-lag given that it takes a long time and a lot of education to even reach PhD level, and then the doctorate itself takes a long time to achieve. It still shouldn’t have taken that long though. But… even here, women have just started to edge ahead, and are predicted to continue to do so — by 10% the subsequent academic year, and 26% by the end of the decade.

Oh, and the statistics look similar in Canada, too, in case you were wondering.

So here’s the infographic. The first part, on the left, shows how degrees awarded in the USA have changed over time. The second part, on the right, sums up STEM participation in the UK (click to zoom):

Education charts

Part 2: Soc Psych Interlude

So, now we’ve established the situation, I’m going to take a little time out to talk about social psychology.

Human beings are weird. I mean, I like this about us — that we’re weird. It’s interesting and fun. We like to think we’re smart and logical, and we sort-of are, but we have millions of years of completely irrational evolution behind us, and it has a habit of creeping up on us unawares.

At a very broad level, the logical parts of our brains are powerful and useful, but are slow and require a lot of resources to keep active. Much like a laptop running off batteries, we send less power to the “expensive” parts if we can, using older, more efficient, and more instinctive parts of our brain instead wherever possible. These are very fast and surprisingly effective, but they do make mistakes — and they work in really, really strange ways.

For a fun example of this, check out Why Susie Sells Seashells by the Seashore, which shows that even something as simple as the initial letters of your name can impact major life decisions. People named Dennis or Denise, for example, are considerably more likely to choose a career as a dentist! Surprisingly subtle cues can influence our behaviour.

What I’m going to be mostly focusing on are two aspects of soc-psych research that have strong implications for learning and exam results: Stereotype threat, and the Pygmalion effect.

Stereotype threat essentially says that if you’re a member of a group, and there’s a negative stereotype about that group that affects a task, you’re more likely to perform badly at that task — especially if you’ve recently been reminded about that stereotype.

Theories vary as to why, but one of the most popular is that part of your mind (which ideally would be working on the task) is distracted by worrying about whether you’re living up to the stereotype or not. It’s been shown, for example, to decrease the amount of “working memory” (the mental equivalent of scrap paper to make temporary notes on) you have available to you.

A cunning way of verifying that the stereotype is preying on the person’s mind is to give participants a series of partial words (eg “_ _ m b”) and ask them to complete them. Filling in “numb” or “lamb” or “limb” would indicate the stereotype is not weighing on their mind, but filling in “dumb” would indicate that it is. Both this technique and the stereotype threat effect are covered by Steele and Aronson’s paper.

(† bearing in mind this blog’s stance on ableism, remember that we’re simply uncovering people’s subconscious fears and biases here.)

The interesting thing is, you can create these kinds of effects completely arbitrarily. You can simply tell children that group-of-children A perform better at a test than group B along some randomly-picked line, and the test results will bear this out. Tell a different classroom of children that B perform better than A, and the results are flipped.

This seems to tie in closely with the Pygmalion effect, which shows that pupils’ ability to learn is affected by the beliefs of their teachers, even if the teachers keep those beliefs strictly to themselves. In the original Oak School Experiment in 1968, researchers told teachers that they’d checked the pupils with a new test, and it indicated that certain pupils were late-developers who would suddenly show rapid growth in their mental abilities during the course of the next year.

At the end of the year, those children had, indeed, achieved gains 2.2x higher than their peers. The problem was, the “new test” was entirely fictional — the pupils had been chosen at random! The simple fact that the teachers expected more from them, had become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Unsurprisingly, the same effect has been shown to work in reverse — kids live down to low expectations, as well as up to high ones. At this point, you might know where I’m headed next…

Part 3: But What About Teh Menz?

Back to our classrooms. We clearly have a problem with boys failing in education, but why?

Some people think “that’s just how boys are”. One of the articles I linked to earlier suggested that “maturity and motivation” play a part, and some people might wonder if “testosterone poisoning” is also involved. These arguments, funnily enough, I find flawed on many levels, including the fact that the statistics apply to people well into their 20s, the fact that testosterone just doesn’t work that way, the fact that it stinks of the kind of sexism that excluded women from education for a long time, and that in Part 2 we saw how these kinds of views have a dangerous tendency to become self-fulfilling prophecy.

Do these stereotype effects apply to our boys?

Bonny Hartley thinks so, as a result of experiments she conducted in schools in Kent. These tests — which contain haunting echoes of the Clark Doll Experiment — involve providing a child with two silhouette drawings, one of a boy and one of a girl, and then a list of statements. For each statement, the child is asked which of the two drawings the statement applies to. The statements don’t have any explicit gender cues like “he” or “she”, so this lets us find out the child’s own gender-biases (if any), without asking leading questions that might influence their answers. It’s quite a nifty technique.

The statements posed were about behaviour, intelligence and success in school, such as “This child is really clever”, or “This child always finishes their work”. More than 200 children of various ages were tested, and the results were:

  • At age 4, boys exhibited no gender bias. They seem to pick randomly between the pictures.
  • At age 4, girls consistently pick the girl picture as being cleverer, better-performing, more focused and better behaved than boys.
  • The boys continue to hold no gender bias for about 2-3 years, but by around the age of 7 or 8 they start to exhibit gender bias… in favour of girls, at their own expense. Their views start to conform to that of the girls, and this continues throughout the older age groups.
  • The girls continue to hold the same views throughout.

I’d love to know more about what’s giving those 4-year-old girls such strong anti-male prejudices. I’d like to also draw attention to the fact that the questions didn’t just cover the children’s own views, but also asked the children what adults believed.

The age range of Bonny Hartley’s research covers primary school level. Only one in eight primary school teachers is male. One in four primary schools have no male teachers at all.

If you’re thinking male teachers might favour secondary schools, you’re right — and yet still, across the school system as a whole, only one in four teachers is male. Not only that, but men are fleeing the teaching profession — this imbalance is accelerating dramatically, with only one new male teacher for every 15 new female teachers entering the profession.

I couldn’t find figures for the US showing the gender of existing or new teachers, but the closest useful piece of information was the number of students obtaining degrees in education. I am going to make the assumption that this tracks new teacher arrival relatively closely. Women have been oustripping men at obtaining these degrees for the past couple of decades — by more than 3:1 (Masters or Doctorate level) or 4:1 (undergraduate level).

Is this relevant? It’s hard to say for sure. Some research has been done into this subject, and it seems to be contradictory. Some, for example, finds that male teachers are vital role models. Other reports, comparing test results of pupils whose teachers’ gender either does or doesn’t match their own, seem to show that having a male teacher doesn’t help boys learn better.

The problem there, I think, is that they’re looking only at the context of a single class, rather than the educational system. It’s not a question of boys needing male teachers to learn. It’s a question of the current system essentially comprising a female-dominated workplace, one which Ms Hartley’s research suggests is distinctly misandrist — particularly at the primary-school level where children are learning what school is and how they fit within it. In an employment context, we’d call that a hostile working environment.

My belief is that to improve boys education, it’s not necessary to pair each boy with a male teacher (or each girl with a female teacher). Instead, it’s necessary to change those fundamental attitudes that are telling boys, before they even reach the age of 7, that they are inferior.

About Cheradenine

Cheradenine is yet another kinky poly thing — you’d think there was a production line — and a gender-egalitarian old enough to have been around when the country first elected a female leader. Living in the UK and yet to find a comfortable gender-descriptor (though “genderfluid” comes closest), Cheradenine spends much of life being either both or neither of things where “everybody knows” you have to be one or the other — and, in that vein, is neither a feminist nor a masculist, in the belief that human rights are not a team sport.
This entry was posted in education, issues, noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz, sexism and tagged , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

135 Responses to Education Fails Boys

  1. noahbrand says:

    Damn, that’s some interesting work. And it’s nice to see this kind of research that doesn’t come pre-loaded with that “feminism is destroying society” skew that we’re all so tediously familiar with. Food for thought.

    One reflection: in the United States at least, teaching as a profession has been heavily devalued over the past 30-40 years. Teachers are often regarded as low-status, and frequently excoriated by various ideological sorts. I wonder if that could be an influence on the gender gap in teachers that you observe?

  2. Titfortat says:

    Most times I cannot stand stats, so I am very thankful there are people such as yourself who prove what my ‘intuitive’ voice has been saying for a while. Great post, lots of food for thought. Interestingly enough my home proves most of what is written. My daughter was just voted class valedictorian, my stepson, well that’s a different story.

  3. Toysoldier says:

    In another experiment, Hartley found that teachers’ comments effected how boys performed on tests. From the Guardian article:

    In a separate experiment, 140 of the children were divided into two groups. The academics told the first group that boys do not perform as well as girls. The second group were not told this. All the pupils were tested in maths, reading and writing.

    The academics found the boys in the first group performed “significantly worse” than boys in the second group, while girls’ performance was similar in both groups.

    It is doubtful that there is intentional misandry against boys, although that does occur sometimes. I think it has more to do with the natural bias people have that favors their methods of learning and their own groups, and the changes made in the educational system in the last thirty years.

    We certainly need to stop telling boys that they suck, but that is such a cultural fixture at this point that it will take a decade or two to get rid of it. The easiest and perhaps best fix would be to get more male teachers involved. Their involvement would neutralize a lot of the negative commentary.

  4. Cheradenine says:

    It’s hard to say. I have some gut suspicions but nothing I feel I can back up with anything concrete.

    However, one thing I’ve heard people say, is that poor pay is a motivation. Yet, while I’m given to understand that teachers in the USA are underpaid, the USA has a much narrower gender gap amongst teaching staff than in the UK, where teachers are not badly paid. A teacher in London with “advanced skills”, but not in a management role (eg headteacher), can earn up to $102,000 with further payments of up to $28,000 available if they fill certain roles within the school. A headteacher can earn up to almost $180,000.

    So if pay is a proxy for prestige/status, that would suggest against your hypothesis — but I don’t know if it is such a proxy. There could be many other factors at work.

  5. marc2020 says:

    I’d put it down to casual sexism in the classroom and a belief that negative comments just role off boys backs that they don’t or shouldn’t care about the odd jibe towards there intelligence because it will make them more determined to succeed, which it sort of does but in a way that teachers intend.

    Instead of being motivated by success they’re instead motivated by fear of failure and as fear is a negative emotion that makes it harder concentrate because you’re constantly trying to take your mind of the consequences of what will happen should you fail until you can think about nothing else.*

    The teachers at my old high school were especially guilty of this, they’d tell us horror stories about pupils (all of whom were male) who didn’t study hard enough and ended up wasting there lives. Not the kind of thing you really want to here when you’re about to sit a major exam.

    *Cordielia Fine wrote somethig about it in her book Delusions of Gender but I’m having trouble finding the chapter.

  6. theLaplaceDemon says:

    Fantastic post. Thank you.

  7. mythago says:

    I can’t speak to the situation in the UK (and frankly I haven’t had time to look deeply into those numbers), but in the US the situation is really that minority boys are doing worse and worse compared to their sisters; the gap is much smaller between white boys and girls.

    And it’s frustrating, because I want to save boys from failing. But in the US this has been seized on by the usual suspects who want to whine about how public education – which has not changed significantly in the US in the last few years – is “girl-oriented” and how boys are from Mars and clearly are unable to sit and do math problems without jumping up every five minutes. Oh, and please hire a consultant with an expensive program designed to tell you that we should have really low expectations for anyone with a penis, because they just can’t function without five hours a day of recess, the poor dears.

    As I’m old enough to remember when the gap went the other way and we were condescendingly told that clearly girls just weren’t up to the rigors of schooling the way boys were – you know, boys being analytical and logical and stuff – I can’t see the “feminization” argument as much more than political posturing. (I’m looking at you, Christina Hoff Summers.

  8. mythago says:

    The “Pygmalion effect” has been known for some time. That said, really, the last thirty years? I was in the public-education system in the earlier part of those thirty years, and nobody was telling us that boys couldn’t do as well as girls. Kind of the opposite.

  9. Soda says:

    Chapter 3 =)

    There’s also loads of information about stereotype threat on this website.

  10. quoded says:

    In some schools and areas,* there is also a huge social cost among male peers to being academically motivated, especially outside of the STEM areas.

    *In my experience, anyway, this may or may not be broadly true.

  11. Cheradenine says:

    Well, I don’t know as much about the US system, so it’s hard for me to say anything especially useful there. I do know that in the UK, education has changed quite a lot in the last 30 years, with the introduction of the National Curriculum, different kinds of testing, school “league tables”, and (as a result) a teaching focus more on rote learning and passing a test, rather than actually learning in a way that allows the child to apply the learning in new contexts and so on.

    Race, though certainly an issue in the UK, isn’t the same volatile subject as in the US. We just don’t have the same history here. Class is probably more salient, and there are definitely trends there — I can’t find any statistics that break down results by class-and-gender, though.

    But, I would ask a couple of questions:

    • If race is an issue, then given that racial equity issues have slowly been improving since the 60s, why would male educational performance be declining?
    • Whether discussing race or class, why would this disproportionately affect boys of whichever group, rather than both boys and girls?

    I have a particular dislike for the “men are from mars/women are from venus” trope, so I agree with you regarding that issue. Apart from anything else, as I stated in the article, it seems to fuel the problem itself by creating low expectations and stereotypes that are actively harmful to the boys. That said, I would like to see changes to the way schools are run (and not just for boys, for whoever wants to take advantage of alternative routes through education), but that’s not for gendered reasons, it’s simply because I think the structure of schools is an archaic holdover from the needs of the industrial revolution that makes no sense in the modern world — but that’s a whole different story, and not especially relevant to NSWATM? 🙂

  12. Jim says:

    “I wonder if that could be an influence on the gender gap in teachers that you observe?”

    I think the causation is the reverse of that. Teaching is not female-dominated because of poor pay, it is poorly paid because it is female-dominated. School boards and parents pay as litle as they can get away with.

    And nowadays teaching is not just female-dominated, it is dominated by women who have been left to it by other women who have gone onto to more lucrative careers. Those same careers are open to femlae teachers, so going inot teaching nowadays is a conscious decision to accept lower pay.

    It’s a disgusting inversion. Once upon a time we respected and rewarded educators and reviled the people who dealt with death and disease, and made them live outside the city limits. But now look at what we pay doctors compared to teachers. (Exaggerated for effect)

  13. Jim says:

    “But in the US this has been seized on by the usual suspects who want to whine about how public education – which has not changed significantly in the US in the last few years – is “girl-oriented” and how boys are from Mars and clearly are unable to sit and do math problems without jumping up every five minutes.”

    Characterizing these concerns as “whining” is unhelpful, Mythago.

    You speak in generalities, but I can address one specific case. Here in Washington State the state adopted a verbally-oriented method of teaching math. The stated intent was to address issues of teaching girls, i.e. it first stereotyped girls as more verbally-oriented and explicitly set out to privilege them in math instruction.

    So for for three or four years boys math achievement dropped, and that was no big deal. The deal-breaker was that the girls didn’t respond very well to this new initiative either. It finally ended about three years ago.

    I wonder if anyone has looked at reading lists to see if there has been anything similar in English/lit classes. You hear claims, but my sense is that it isn’t really the case. Nobody teaches the Iliad and they do teach Where the Red Fern grows (6th grade or so) and the Joy Luck Club, but then they never did teach the Iliad. OTOH they now teach Beowulf and somme of the arthurian stuff here in Washington, and that sure is aimed at male audiences.

  14. Jim says:

    “I’d put it down to casual sexism in the classroom….”

    You are on to something, and not in the way you mean. WRT to pressure on boys to do poorly outside the STEM subjects, there is the sexism of “If the girls can do, then you’re just a girl if you do it too.” that affects the arts all across society, not just in school.

  15. Daran says:

    GCSE … the exams that all children in the UK are expected to take

    Not in Scotland.

  16. Laura says:

    I wonder how the apparent explosions of both ADHD and autism-related disorders play into this. Both of these are on a continuum, so even kids who aren’t diagnosed may be affected.

    And I’d love to see a study on how television-watching in kids from infancy through preschool age affects brain development, and hence school performance. Would not be at all surprised to find that boys are affected differently there than girls.

  17. Cheradenine says:

    Sorry, yes, you’re right. I’ll correct that 🙂

  18. Danny says:

    About male teachers (or lack thereof) I wonder if it has something to do with the expectation that men must be providers and since teaching isn’t that high paying of a job men stay away from it because they won’t be able to provide.

  19. Daran says:

    in the US the situation is really that minority boys are doing worse and worse compared to their sisters; the gap is much smaller between white boys and girls.

    Do you have a citation for that? I know Ampersand has argued this point, but his analysis was faulty. It turns out that, at least as as far that those particular data are concerned, the gap between boys and girls in the mostly white, affluent community was about the same size as that in the predominantly non-white and poor community. That same-sized gap did, however, disproportionately impacted the poor minority boys.

  20. Clarence says:

    Oh Jesus.
    You could write a book on this, quite literally. The changes in policies and teaching methods in the US that have occurred over the past 30 years have been tremendous. Zero tolerance and sexual harrasment policies, the increasing use of Ritalin and other drugs, the end of “tracking” (which had some advantages, but we have to pretend that all kids are the same and learn equally fast and equally well, don’t we?) school uniform wars, the Reading Wars (which is better: whole language or phonics? I think phonics was established to be best) which lead to reading being taught using phonics, then whole langauge, then a switch back to phonics again, the Math Wars (remember New Math?) the overuse of calculators in the 90’s to now where they are in some cases trying to emphasize manual methods again, etc. Changes in funding. The cutting in the 90’s to the present day depending on system and state of programs such as Art and Music and possibly home economics and the skilled trades such as carpentry from school curricula. No recess in some states for elementary school kids. The end of Forced Desegregation. Online learning. The rise of Standardized Testing, and the subsequent backpedaling from enforcing any consequences for failing the tests as the pass/fail rates are invariably disappointing esp. in the poorer communities.

    To intersect with changes in the laws in the larger society. Thus teenagers being prosecuted for “sexting”. Arguably schools are very unfriendly places for male teachers as they are under suspicion as sexual predators no matter whether they teach elementary or high school.

    There is too much going on here to make it very easy to compare test scores of boys and girls in the 1970’s to test scores today and make any meaningful conclusions as to causes. Yes, I think -esp at the elementary level- there are changes in the style of learning that might fit more easily into boys natural learning styles and lead to some improvement. Yes, sexism probably plays some part. But right now we don’t really know.

  21. doctormindbeam says:

    This is a fantastic post! Two things hit particularly hard with me:

    People are working hard to close that gap, and I certainly agree this gap should be closed — but when it is, if nothing is done about every other field of study, then the boys are going to be even more severely behind.

    as well as the gender biases in girls as young as age four. What’s causing such an early manifestation of sexism?

  22. Titfortat says:

    @Laura

    I heard an interesting one in regards to ADD. Its called, Absent Dad Disease. Considering the majority of ADD cases are boys I wonder if this ‘joke’ has any relevance.

  23. doctormindbeam says:

    That’s a pretty harsh response dude.

  24. doctormindbeam says:

    It is doubtful that there is intentional misandry against boys

    How do you explain the four year old girls’ sexism then?

  25. doctormindbeam says:

    I think ADD/ADHD are dramatically overdiagnosed. Influenced partially by big pharma pressure on doctors, and partly on funding cuts in schools leading to a reduction in recess and other physical activities where kids can blow off energy. Girls may be socialized to be demure and quiet, but boys are generally not, so it’s no wonder they’d have more trouble holding still and being quiet all day long.

  26. Camilla says:

    I’m the mother of boys, both of whom have/had a mild expressive language delay before age two. Something I’ve been told a bunch of times, is that Early Intervention evaluates a lot of boys who are missing language milestones around age two, but catch up again thereafter – basically that this type of delay is a common pattern for boys but not girls.
    It’s less widely acknowledged, but I’m also under the impression from looking at my son’s classmates, that the girls are more uniform in terms of skills and physical development in the preschool years, whereas the boys vary wildly.

    My guess is that the school system is unintentionally amplifying the early maturity advantage that the girls seem to have, by setting up a structure where children are permanently grouped into age matched cohorts, and the children who are the most mature when they start kindergarten keep their advantage by building on their early successes.

  27. Xakudo says:

    It is indeed odd that there is such a focus on the gap in the STEM fields when the gap over-all in education has the reverse trend. I wonder, with some irony, if the focus on STEM as so important comes partly from internalized misogyny. E.g. “It’s a male-dominated field, and therefore cool and important! Not like those stupid female-dominated fields.”

  28. mythago says:

    Characterizing these concerns as “whining” is unhelpful, Mythago.

    Conflating actual concerns about boys with opportunistic, anti-feminist game-playing is even more unhelpful, Jim.

  29. mythago says:

    Daran, your counter-analysis isn’t as devastating as you’d like it to be.

    But that said, even you admit that there’s a disproportionate impact on poor minority boys – and that impact is almost completely absent from the Gurian/Sax/Sommers analysis. They aren’t interested in class and race issues, probably because poor black parents aren’t the ones paying for expensive consultants.

  30. mythago says:

    I completely agree with your last paragraph there. Harmful stereotypes and telling boys they’re not good at __________ or are just naturally bad students is, bluntly, inexcusable.

  31. mythago says:

    Very true. And let’s face it, there’s often a social stigma for men who choose to be teachers, especially K-6 teachers. Why on earth would any man want to go into, you know, a woman’s profession? Doesn’t he have any ambition? And why would any man want to be around young children?

  32. mythago says:

    Children notice differences really early on. Whether they treat those differences as negative is going to depend on how the adults around them react, and that’s not just their teachers. If they’re being fed Mars/Venus crap at home – and my experience is that even “educated, liberal” parents buy into that shit all the way – they’re going to parrot it at school, particularly if their teachers do not firmly and quickly counteract it.

  33. mythago says:

    girls are more uniform in terms of skills and physical development in the preschool years, whereas the boys vary wildly

    As a mother of a boy and two girls, I have to say that I haven’t found this to be true. At all.

    I do wonder how much the death of jobs that require little formal education plays into this. Even twenty years ago, it was not uncommon for a boy who left before graduating high school to be able to enlist in the military, or go into the trades, or work at the factory, and be able to make at least a modest living nonetheless. (Girls, of course, were just going to get married or take jobs similar to their brothers, so if they dropped out, similarly wasn’t as big a deal.) That can’t happen anymore, and the struggling boy who might once have dropped out to become a carpenter now has to stay put. And at least in the US, schools have fewer and fewer resources to help these kids.

  34. “I’d love to know more about what’s giving those 4-year-old girls such strong anti-male prejudices. ”

    Sadly, I think people are unintentionally training boys to be disruptive, rebellious, and dismissive of academics, and the girls also get this message, along with a dose of “women must behave!” (which the boys also get and leads to misogyny) which leads to the misandristic bias of the girls you describe. It’s not two sepearate processes, it’s part and parcel of the same thing.

    I’d imagine, since you said the study asked the children who is “cleverer, better-performing, more focused and better behaved than boys” – the girls’ bias probably comes from societal pressure on girls (ie more gendered conditioning), that girls are supposed to be quieter, better behaved, less distracted, and these days that they’ve got to be smart, these days, as well as beautiful to get anywhere, while they see people dismissing disruptive behavior from boys as “boys being boys” or medicalizing it (which I am firmly against) into ADD or related “disorders” and therefore they “can’t be controlled.” There is a HUGE gender skew in the diagnosis of ADD and related “disorders.” (I have a lot more to say about this topic, some other time) I would say it’s probably inaccurate to argue that increased awareness of sexism hasn’t motivated girls to work harder and parents to put more pressure on them to perform higher, but I’d say people definitely give more leeway to boys to misbehave (in ways that are, as you can see, hurting boys), but girls misbehaving in the same way are more strictly censured even by their peers.

    Anecdotally, I’m a teacher in South Korea. My boys will routinely act out in class, even if they’re very good at English (everything ranging from yelling “SHIT!” randomly to getting up and walking across the room to bother a friend while I’m lecturing to listening to an mp3 player during class, but across the board my high-performing girls are the best behaved by far out of all my students. My girls are also just generally more well behaved, quieter, and more responsive to their teachers than my boy students (in gender mixed classes). I have two exceptions. These two girls are routinely extremely disruptive, yell things at random, sing pop songs in the back of the class and spend most of their time mouthing off and doing their makeup. They are virtually ostracized by most other students, including disruptive boys, and when they disrupt class, even disruptive boys will level some quite serious and gendered slurs at them to try and get them to shut up.

    We’re not fighting different processes – young girls and young boys are being affected by the exact same messages that affect each of them in different ways and cause them to have biases against each other in different but complimentary (in a negative sense) ways.

  35. theLaplaceDemon says:

    “, the end of “tracking” (which had some advantages, but we have to pretend that all kids are the same and learn equally fast and equally well, don’t we?) ”

    Wouldn’t tracking just lead to the Pygmalion effect, and essentially screw over kids who were “late bloomers”?

  36. Clarence says:

    Xakudo:

    STEM fields are socially respected and they tend to pay very decently.
    Those are the main reasons that feminists care about the gap.
    You’ll notice they don’t give two shakes and a sh** about the gap in “garbage disposal” fields.

  37. doctormindbeam says:

    @mythago: There hasn’t been any “opportunistic, anti-feminist game-playing” going on, and you would do well to stop being hyperbolic and read the comment policy while you’re at it.

    Your premise hinges on the assumption that public education remains unchanged over the past several decades, an assertion that is demonstrably false.

  38. doctormindbeam says:

    @mythago: The impact of a gap versus the size of a gap seem largely irrelevant here. By the same line of argument, it shouldn’t matter as much if wealthy women are excluded from having abortions when the poor women are harder-hit by that.

  39. doctormindbeam says:

    Children notice differences really early on.

    Are you seriously arguing that there is a biological factor causing boys to have poor “behaviour, intelligence and success in school?”

  40. doctormindbeam says:

    Have you been in the public education system for the entirely of the last thirty years? Or do you not believe that attitudes could have changed since 1980?

  41. doctormindbeam says:

    Very interesting insights. I agree entirely. Thank you!

  42. doctormindbeam says:

    That, and, even within academia, STEM fields are often the most “prestigious” because they’re considered the most intellectually demanding and selective.

  43. kaija24 says:

    I think it’s also because, at least in the US, we’re falling behind in maintaining our edge in these fields (which are crucial in the age of technology) and we can’t afford to discount half of the population as we did in the past (the age of Sputnik and the Cold War). Male OR female, American students in advanced degree/training programs in the STEM fields are the minority…it’s mostly international students who are better prepared academically and more motivated to achieve.

    That being said, if you are a American citizen and have an aptitude in the STEM fields, you can not only get your graduate education paid for but also get a stipend to live on while you are studying. Free education is one of those “offers you can’t refuse”! Of course this assumes that you have adequate preparation throughout primary and secondary education to qualify, and that is lacking for a lot of groups, especially rural, poor, and minority students.

  44. Cheradenine says:

    Tracking certainly screwed over parts of my education. I can’t say that it’s for reasons that can be generalised to all pupils though. But I do think tracking is a problem, but also, there’s a better way of addressing the needs of pupils who learn at different rates.

    One thing I’d suggest for people interested in ways of changing education, is to watch this TED Talk by Salman Khan which describes a system they’re trialling that allows every child to learn at their own rate and get valuable teaching where they need it most, without stigmatising anyone; let me quote a couple of relevant points from that talk:

    And in a traditional model, if you did a snapshot assessment, you say, “These are the gifted kids, these are the slow kids. Maybe they should be tracked differently. Maybe we should put them in different classes.” But when you let every student work at their own pace — and we see it over and over and over again — you see students who took a little bit extra time on one concept or the other, but once they get through that concept, they just race ahead. And so the same kids that you thought were slow six weeks ago, you now would think are gifted.

    This was the problem in my education; assessments made at different times would give wildly different results, as a result I got bounced around and was always made to feel like I was either stupid, or failing to work hard enough/live up to my potential, when in fact I was confused and lost (I am also left-handed, which meant that I lagged behind at anything involving writing or the rote copying-down of stuff).

    And so the first time (several years later) that they gave us those multiple-choice tests where you just have to draw a line in the box… when the results came through, I thought everyone was teasing me cruelly by telling me I was top of the class.

    Anyway, back to the video:

    “We use your videos to flip the classroom. You’ve given the lectures, so now what we do … ” and this could happen in every classroom in America tomorrow, ” … what I do is I assign the lectures for homework. And what used to be homework, I now have the students doing in the classroom.”

    They took a fundamentally dehumanizing experience — 30 kids with their fingers on their lips, not allowed to interact with each other. A teacher, no matter how good, has to give this one size fits all lecture to 30 students — blank faces, slightly antagonistic — and now it’s a human experience. Now they’re actually interacting with each other.

    A lot of the effort in humanizing the classroom is focused on student-to-teacher ratios. In our mind, the relevant metric is student-to-valuable-human-time- with-the-teacher ratio. So in a traditional model, most of the teacher’s time is spent giving lectures and grading and whatnot. Maybe five percent of their time is actually sitting next to students and actually working with them. Now 100 percent of their time is. So once again, using technology, not just flipping the classroom, you’re humanizing the classroom, I’d argue, by a factor of five or 10.

  45. Cheradenine says:

    DMB, that wasn’t my understanding of what mythago meant. I took “differences” to mean, “differences in the way adults treat children or expect children to behave” (and, there’s a lot of evidence to show that kids are incredibly sensitive to that stuff. It’s pretty much their full-time job!)

  46. kaija24 says:

    Another problem related to “tracking” is the stigmatization of skilled trades and vocational training, at least in North America. The continued emphasis on academic “college prep” focuses on verbal and math skills predominantly and overvalues the college path while casting trades and vocational training as second-rate or as a dumping ground for the slow or problem kids. People in the skilled trades make a decent living and quite frankly, we need good plumbers, electricians, machinists, mechanics, etc just as much as we need doctors and lawyers and writers. According to Gardiner’s multiple intelligences theory (http://www.infed.org/thinkers/gardner.htm), there are many manifestations of what we broadly call “intelligence” and only some of them are measured by school grades and IQ tests. We’d do better by allowing people to find and develop their natural talents more freely.

  47. doctormindbeam says:

    That reminds me, actually: Wasn’t American public education essentially set up to train factory workers? Standing in lines, following bells for attention, homogenized groups of people all taught at the same level, a focus on rote memorization of facts, …?

  48. doctormindbeam says:

    Ah, I see. I agree with that — but then we get a chicken-and-egg problem, don’t we? Why would boys be talked about or treated in such a different way in the first place?

  49. doctormindbeam says:

    That’s true. I wonder how much that plays into the decline of the US as an export/production economy to an import/consumption economy? We used to be the industrial powerhouse of the world; now, not so much — and our struggling economy is the signal of that.

  50. Clarence says:

    kaija24:

    It’s a bit more complicated than simply waving our hands and saying “we need to get more females, heck more american citizens involved in STEM fields”! Even ignoring residual sexism and any biological differences in terms of the extremes of the distribution of IQ, you’ve got:
    A. America loves us Some Cheap Labor: H1B policies depress wages in tech industries. Supposedly, we don’t have enough tech talent. That’s arguable, to say the least, since the companies that call loudest for more of the H1B’s tend to have the most to gain in terms of labor savings.
    B. Lack of affordable child care and/or child care facilities on worksites often discourages women from going into these fields
    C. Some (not all ) STEM fields are seen as relatively “nerd dominated”. This applies to such fields as Physics and Computer Science. Thus they don’t have a “cool” status that other tech professions like engineering get. Lack of relative status or the wrong type of status will discourage people interested in jobs with status.

  51. kaija24 says:

    Agreed on all counts. Cheap labor IS a big driver and a hush-hush reason why the US hasn’t really fixed its immigration policies (too many entities benefiting from the status quo). The child-care issue is a big one for many working families; our current work culture hasn’t kept pace with modern life and still assumes that there is someone at home doing childcare and other household tasks. This affects both men and women who have to try to juggle multiple responsibilities and the tradeoffs between paying for childcare and the income the jobs bring in. The “nerd” stigma is definitely still a problem. Students of both genders feel pressure to downplay their smarts or their “uncool” interests and may shy away from following those paths for fear of paying a social price. Also, at least until recently, many students opted for careers in finance or banking rather than STEM fields because the pay and status was more attractive. And very very few of these people chose teaching and education as a career (low pay and low status), thus perpetuating the quality-of-public-education problem.

  52. Clarence says:

    The reason that “tracking” is useful is that it enables people to be in classes of their intellectual peers. Arguably, the current public school system is currently setup and designed to produce mediocre educational results for everyone, rather than allowing the brighter kids to shine. If you’ve got yourself a highly intelligent kid I recommend private schooling or homeschooling rather than public schooling. Conversely, if your child is rather on the other end of the bell curve in terms of intelligence, he or she would probably do better out of a public school as well, because public schools tend not to have the resources to properly deal with learning disabilities and those with lower IQ’s.
    As for a “normal” child, I recommend supplementing public schooling with some homeschooling even if you’ve got to bribe your kid to take them. Public schools in the USA tend to be crap, even the ones in the suburbs that seem to do so well with their test scores. No doubt suburban public schools are , on average , better learning environments than most poor inner city schools, but being “decent” when compared with utter failure to educate doesn’t mean you are necessarily anything but a poor education environment yourself.

  53. Cheradenine says:

    Well, now you’re basically asking “why does society have stereotypes”? 🙂

    Because people have a habit of rounding 51% up to 100%, and 49% down to 0%, and because some people have vested interests in promoting gender differences, and because when someone does something that provokes a strong emotional reaction, people have a tendency to ascribe that behaviour to everyone who shares whichever trait about them you happen to consider most salient (race, sex, religion, etc) and because after a point cultural norms become self-sustaining even in the complete absence of a reason for sustaining them.

    (There’s an interesting variation on Solomon Asch’s conformity experiments in which, one by one, you replace the stooges with test subjects. Eventually, you end up with no stooges, and all test subjects, all of whom are lying about the results purely due to what is, in effect, a cultural artefact — self-sustaining peer-pressure long after the original cause has vanished.)

  54. Clarence says:

    DMB:
    No, not really. http://www.servintfree.net/~aidmn-ejournal/publications/2001-11/PublicEducationInTheUnitedStates.html

    You are actually thinking of changes that were brought about by people in the early part of the 20th century when factory work was taking off and the majority of workers were finally moving from farms to factories.

  55. Cheradenine says:

    That transition from farm work to factory work started to happen in the late 1700s — in line with the rise of public education here. That’s what I was alluding to in an earlier comment. Public education in the UK (and presumably other countries in “the west” — I don’t know about other cultures) was set up for the needs of the industrial revolution, and so they emphasise conformity, obedience to authority, following instructions to the letter, micromanaged timetables, and so on. In effect, school is a dress-rehearsal, for a play that few people in the west act in any more.

  56. mythago says:

    @doctormindbeam: The assertion that public education, as a whole, has suddenly turned into a feminist-supremacist utopia shortly before boys’ scores declined is a paranoid fantasy.

    Jim accused me of calling people who are concerned about boys’ slipping “whiners”, when I was pretty clearly talking about opportunists who use this problem as an excuse to advance their sexist agenda.

  57. mythago says:

    We don’t? That’s news to me.

  58. doctormindbeam says:

    school is a dress-rehearsal, for a play that few people in the west act in any more

    I may steal that line!

  59. doctormindbeam says:

    @mythago: Where do you see anyone saying that “public education, as a whole, has suddenly turned into a feminist-supremacist utopia shortly before boys’ scores declined?”

  60. mythago says:

    Since I never said or even implied such a thing, I’m frankly astonished that you took that as my argument, particularly as reading past the first sentence makes it crystal-clear that I *don’t* believe that males and females are innately different and opposite.

    “Differences” means that children notice that while I am a boy Susie is a girl, or that Bobby over there has white skin while I have brown skin, or that Kimiko is in a wheelchair. They try to make sense of those differences. If the adults are (sometimes explicitly) telling them those differences mean that Susie is nicer because girls are nicer, or Bobby is better at math because white people are smarter, then that becomes part of their worldview. That’s where the sexism comes from. Children are not picking this up in a vacuum – and believe me, the whole “snips and snails and puppy dog tails” starts from *birth*.

  61. mythago says:

    Exactly. And because people are deeply emotionally invested in those stereotypes.

  62. Clarence says:

    While I agree that the “g” factor of IQ is not 100 percent, thus meaning that there are other aspects to intelligence that aren’t measured by IQ it is still a very good predictor of outcomes at all levels of education in countries around the world. People with high IQ’s are easier to teach and can learn more than those without. I’d like to believe in Gardiner’s theory unreservedly, but alas, I believe his theory only accounts for a minority of what constitutes human intelligence.

  63. doctormindbeam says:

    Well, that’s my point actually. I think we agree here. But unless there is something biologically different about boys or girls that manifests as appearing smarter/dumber or better/worse at school, it would be parents reinforcing prejudices, and not children “noticing” these things. (How would a four-year-old even have his or her own concept of what “being a good student” was?) So what “differences” would there be that adults would label one way or another, then?

  64. Clarence says:

    Cheradenine:

    Thank you for the link. I’ll be viewing it as I’m a fan of anyone who can think outside the box (to use a wayyyyyyy overused phrase) in terms of educating people.

    I’m not intellectually wedded to the tracking model, I just feel it (possibly imperfectly) helped solve the problem of what to do when you have wide intelligence distributions in your schools. I’ll have more thoughts after I’ve viewed that video.

  65. Clarence says:

    I’m in the USA and I hate to tell you this but until sometime in the early 1900’s most Americans were still rural farmworkers. You’ve made the mistake of assuming that the USA industrialized as fast and in the same manner that the UK did.

  66. AB says:

    “STEM fields are socially respected and they tend to pay very decently.
    Those are the main reasons that feminists care about the gap.
    You’ll notice they don’t give two shakes and a sh** about the gap in “garbage disposal” fields.”

    That’s because it’s not considered a difficult field for anyone to enter, regardless of sex. There are also tons of female-dominated jobs, but people don’t care about them unless they a) are prestigious or b) influence boys.

    Hence why women getting too many bachelor degrees is seen as a problem, and too many women teaching little boys to read is seen as a problem, but I have yet to see anyone (including you), even on this very gender-conscious blog, express any concern that fewer men than women have cleaning jobs. There is no double standard in it.

    And I think it’s extremely dangerous to just go “Well, there are more men/women in , therefore it’s OK”, or as you do, insinuate that there is some kind of unfairness in people mainly talking about discrimination in relation to jobs that are perceived as hard to enter (as opposed to those perceived as open to almost anyone).

  67. Cheradenine says:

    I know the USA industrialised later; I was talking about the UK. The thing is, when the USA did make that transition, it was heavily influenced by the existing models, which had been around for a long time by that point, and seemed to be churning out Good Little Factory Workers(tm).

  68. Clarence says:

    AB:

    Because I really don’t care if fields don’t have numerical parity provided the difference isn’t mostly or entirely due to discrimination/sexism what have you.

    I accept that men and women have different interests on average; I also accept that many women either do not wish to work (preferring to raise children) or wish to take time off work or education in order to do so -and I accept that those choices have consequences.

    I’m not the one trying to use the coercive power of government to impose my preferred ideology on private and public employers, so please don’t bother me with your arguments of hypocrisy – indeed, if men and women are totally interchangeable save for some sexual bits then women should be clamoring equally as hard for those positions on the garbage truck, and surely it’s feminisms job to make that widely expressed female wish a a reality, right?

  69. Clarence says:

    Oh, this should be fun:

    Mythago I want you to point me to a large feminist project that exists to get women into blue collar and unskilled or dangerous trades.Heck, if you can’t find any , I’d love to see the last piece of legislation that NOW, Feminist Majority , or AAUW has placed before the peeps on Capital Hill that deals with issues of underrepresentation for blue collar or unskilled women.

  70. AB says:

    I think it’s interesting that when boys and men are the subject of gender discussions, people seem much more reluctant to point out their potentially problematic behaviour than when the subject is girls and women.

    I’ve never had a problem, say, getting feminists to agree that many women could do better if they became more assertive. The feminists will almost always point out that girls are raised to be less assertive and that girls/women are also more often punished for being assertive, but they’re usually OK with the notion that, to a certain extent, the behaviour of many women is less optimal than it could be, and it would be a good thing if we helped women become more assertive (or less focussed on having the perfect home, and more willing to involve men child-rearing, and all sorts of other areas where women are sabotaging themselves).

    But when it comes to debates like this one, the closest thing it seems anyone has come to this is to point out stereotype threats and expectations (which contradicts my personal experience of boys having plenty of belief in their own abilities regardless of actual performance, but I acknowledge that there’s probably more to it than that). It’s all about how to be more understanding of the special needs of little boys and to think higher of them at the same time, and it’s always framed like everybody needing to change their behaviour except the actual boys.

    In my experience, there are lots of boys who (usually unintentionally) sabotage things for themselves in ways that have nothing to do with the educational facilities. I know that here at least, teaching methods are pretty much the same as they were when boys were doing better (or alternatively, when girls were doing worse), except there has become more focus on individuality and initiative (the grade system I grew up with was even set up to specifically reward independence and originality), and boys seem to get the most attention.

    So when things are pretty much the same except for changes which are supposed to benefit boys, and they still don’t do any better, it’s a shame that any discussion of the subject is locked on the idea that it must be because boys are either treated worse, or because boys are a certain way naturally, and that the only choice is for everybody else to adapt around the boys. Because I’ve seen too many indications that this is an inadequate strategy, or worse, serves more to decrease the performance of girls than raise the performance of boys.

  71. doctormindbeam says:

    What possibly do you believe is wrong with the boys that needs to be changed? Frankly your comment smells slightly sexist to me.

  72. AB says:

    Clarence, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume that I was the one not being clear, but I’m saying the pretty much same thing as you do.

    People don’t assume women are being kept away from the garbage disposal field because it’s not considered a difficult field to enter, and therefore it is not discrimination or sexism keeping women away. Your assertion that men are clamouring hard for those jobs doesn’t mirror anything I’ve ever seen. Among all the things I’ve heard children say they want to be (doctor, midwife, actor, singer, mermaid, professor, cop, veterinarian, circus-artist, fire-fighter, soldier, psychologist, and model for the smaller children, and nurse, computer scientist, engineer, electrician, waiter, store-owner, accountant, bio-technician, lawyer, etc. for the somewhat older crowd), garbage collector has never been among them. My uncle has actually worked as a garbage collector, and it definitely wasn’t because he had some widely expressed wish for it.

    I also feel the need to ask, why are you here? If you truly believe that to help/encourage members of a certain sex to get into fields in which their sex is under-represented is the same as trying to use the coercive power of government to impose one’s preferred ideology on private and public employers, and that you’re explicitly against this, why are you participating in a debate about helping/encouraging boys and men in fields in which their sex is under-represented?

  73. Clarence says:

    AB:
    The debate is about educational performance, not career choice.
    I wonder how you missed that?
    By the way, I’ve expressly stated my view that sexism against boys is not the main cause (while it might be one of the causes) for the gap in school.

  74. AB says:

    This is what I’m talking about. I’m saying that men and women both (and if I’d had the option for italics, this was were I would have put it) sometimes sabotage things for themselves, and both engage in behaviours that are less than optimal, and both of them probably mostly do it unintentionally (actually, the only ones I said that about was boys, but assumed people would understand I was talking about a general principle here because I specifically said so), and the first response I get is that it smells sexist.

    It’s a bit like how discussions of femininity (at least among feminists) are usually critical, with plenty of people pointing out how utterly wrong (i.e. failing to accurately describe women) many aspects of it is, and how a lot of the traits aren’t necessarily that positive (just because fainting and having eating disorders are most closely associated with women doesn’t make them desirable behaviours), but whenever someone tries to point out the same about masculinity, a group of people (usually absent when femininity was discussed) immediately jumps in and start talking about how good and precious (every aspect of) masculinity is, how it’s being demonised by misandrists, and how men aren’t allowed to be men any more.

    It wouldn’t do me any good to give some of the negative behaviour I’ve observed in young men, or how I think it relates to their bad performance and lack of interest in academics, as long as that double standard is in effect.

  75. Clarence says:

    Heh.

    Yeah, AB can be occasionally sexist in my opinion so maybe your nose is on the right track.
    However, so can I.
    Let me blow your mind, DMB: I’m not sure it wouldn’t be best to go to a single sex education setting. Boys and girls I believe have different styles of learning; male teachers would be less unwelcome among male students, and when hormones kick in around 12 to 14 boys and girls being together provide no end of distractions to education. I remember some days when I was in High School where I was literally not focused on any education of the “book learning” variety, and I don’t think I learned a thing on those days except something of the type” Damn, they have panties in that color?”

    Is this the “fault” of girls? Of course not. It’s merely the result of people being forcibly placed together for 6 or more hours a day of during the beginning thru the peak part of what is arguably the most sexually charged time of their lives, and given absolutely no socially sanctioned outlet for those sexual desires while in that environment.

    So I don’t think COED education is a good idea. That doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be socials and mixers and participation in sporting events among and between the boys and girls schools. But in my ideal world all schools up until college would be single sex and each school would have a “sister” or “brother” school. I truly think that would solve some of the problems we see.

    Is

  76. AB says:

    Clarence, among other things, the OP was about college degrees, which is a career choice. I would also say that grades are partly a career choice, with the only difference being that everybody are required to attend the same ‘job’ (primary school at least), so the people who don’t have an interest in it are simple less prone to getting good grades instead of being less prone to applying or showing up at all (actually, if my high-school experiences were anything to go by, guys also did less showing up).

  77. Cheradenine says:

    Gender-segregated schools are a terrible idea — I dunno about the USA but we still have some of those here, and I know people who went through them — and I don’t believe that boys and girls “have different styles of learning” either. If you’re going to start raising gender essentialism (and I know too many men “from venus” and too many women “from mars” to believe in it), you better have some sure-fire evidence to back up your claims.

    I believe that people have different styles of learning, but those aren’t sliced down gender lines. Schools should provide for different learning styles, but forcing people into one style or another (I don’t think there are just two) based on the bits between their legs is worse than what we currently have, on more levels than I care to list right now.

  78. Cheradenine says:

    Got any evidence for that double standard? I can believe that you have observed more “but men aren’t allowed to be men any more!” than “women aren’t allowed to be women any more!”, but they both exist. Likewise, criticisms of both masculinity and femininity exist. We criticise aspects of masculinity right here on this blog, especially when they’re enforced by cultural norms instead of chosen by each individual.

    Note, I am not saying MRAs don’t pop up and say “men aren’t be allowed to be men any more!”, they do. I’m also not saying feminists don’t criticise aspects of femininity, they do. I’m saying that you aren’t seeing the other side of the coin — you probably just don’t listen to (shudder) Phyliss Schlafly or Ann Coulter or their ilk much. Which isn’t a bad thing to do (I wouldn’t listen to them either. Squicky!) but that doesn’t mean they’re not out there.

  79. Clarence says:

    Cheradenine:

    Please don’t confuse your prejudice with facts.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_sex_school

    Now ordinarily, I’d link to a paper or something a bit more scholarly. But there are times when Wikipedia is good enough to suffice to get a point across and the point is this: research on the efficiency of same sex schools is mixed but some of them definitely seem to produce very good results.

    As for styles of learning, like most differences between the sexes (note I did NOT use ‘gender’ here) these are on a statistical bell curve. Nonetheless, I am reasonably certain they exist.

    By the way, if you truly believe there are NO mental or psychological differences among the sexes on average then not only do you not believe in evolution, not only do you think humans are a totally unique bisexed mammal, but you also believe that different hormonal profiles mean nothing.

    One may not agree on what all the differences are , but that there are almost certainly some is an almost irresistable logical conclusion. Indeed, I expect we will find more once we FULLY understand genetic expression and inheritance. As it is, we just recently d
    discovered that ribosomes have some unknown way of controlling gene expression:
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110428101752.htm

    So while I’m afraid its way too early to finally call an end to the nature/nurture debate, I am sure that genetics does play a very significant role in the process.

  80. Cheradenine says:

    All it takes to point out the flaws in your arguments are these two words:

    on average

    On average, people have 2.4 kids, but there is no .4-of-a-child running around in that house.

    On average, there may be a difference between males and females (but the evidence is very, very complicated and I suggest you go read Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine to see how much of the alleged evidence of gender differences is flawed, and I suspect that once cultural effects are taken out, the real differences are so tiny as to be Not Interesting), but that’s irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    Because this is the same thing I was talking about earlier, of rounding 51% up to 100% and 49% down to 0%. If 51% of boys are (this) and 49% of girls are (that), you can say that on average, boys are (this) and girls are (that), but if you then force them into education, lifestyles, cultural norms, etc that match those presumed roles, then 49% of boys and 51% of girls are screwed.

    As for single-sex schools: almost all of the single-sex schools in the UK are private schools, paid for by parents and with restricted access, so there are statistical biases in the analysis because those schools have no poor, lower-class, socially-excluded people in them. (You might be confused because, due to a weird anomaly, in the UK, private parent-funded schools are called “public” schools; what you would call public schools in the US, are called “state” schools here.)

  81. doctormindbeam says:

    This. Moreover — due to, among other things, confirmation bias and the fallacy of anecdotal evidence — seeing individual boys behaving badly is not indicative of some gender-wide trend needing correcting. Unless you, AB, can put up conclusive evidence, it’s not a double standard, it’s just simply rejecting a baseless assertion.

  82. doctormindbeam says:

    I think same-sex schools are an awful idea. Insofar as hormones go, women suffer from the just the same as men do — and surprise surprise, there are lesbians and gays, too. So what would you do then? Audit them and put them in the other sex’s class? Finally, “learning styles” — while real — are not gender-based.

  83. Clarence says:

    Cheradenine:

    Yes, we all know that Cordelia Fine is THE definative word on this, don’t we?
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108906/

    Please be a little more discernment to your reading of popular books in this field.
    By the way, let me ask you a question:
    You did note that my argument for sexual differences was statistical in nature , right?

  84. Clarence says:

    DMB:

    I sincerely doubt you can prove that last sentence of yours. Insofar as we are talking hormones, men and woman have different hormonal profiles..surely you understand this much , right? And gay or not, a boy is a boy and a girl is a girl.

    Eventually we might have the knowledge to predict which learning style is best suited to each individual. Once we do, I suspect most girls will fall one way, most boys another. I somehow don’t think it will mean the world is horrid, if, as I suspect, this turns out to be the case.

  85. doctormindbeam says:

    @Clarence: Good thing I don’t have to then! The burden of proof is on someone making an assertion. Here, that would be you, saying that men and women are different.

    P.S., women are horny too. “Different hormonal profiles” doesn’t seem to mean much given that your example had to do with being preoccupied with your classmates panties. Unless you really meant to convey something else?

    Eventually we might have the knowledge to predict which learning style is best suited to each individual. Once we do, I suspect most girls will fall one way, most boys another.

    Once again, the onus is on you to back this up.

  86. AB says:

    I don’t define double a standard only as something which always happens to one group and never happens to another. I’ve seen both men and women being called out for being sexually threatening, and I’ve experienced both women and men being called ‘hysterical’, but that doesn’t mean the terms are used equally.

    Likewise, I have seen traditional masculinity and traditional femininity being both praised and criticised, but outside highly conservative circles (where both are praised), I see far more criticism of femininity and a lot more resistance against criticism of masculinity. Even here, the article about hegemonic masculinity fostered very little actual debate about how destructive the man-box was, but instead devolved mostly into arguments about terminology.

  87. On education gap says:

    There was a request for information on different approaches for male and female students.

    From the Guardian
    “The 20-year trend of girls beating boys in exams could soon be reversed after a move to drop coursework in maths GCSEs allowed boys to leapfrog their female classmates’ results in just one year.
    Coursework will be scrapped from nearly all GCSEs next year, but today’srecord-breaking results showed that when it was dropped from maths, boys surged ahead for the first time in more than a decade while girls got fewer of the top marks.” http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/aug/27/maths-gcse-coursework-dropped

    Here is a bit about a study on early stereotyping.

    Women teachers are holding back boys by reprimanding them for typically male behaviour, according to a study out today.
    They are reinforcing stereotypes that boys are ‘silly’ in class, refuse to ‘sit nicely like the girls’ and are more likely to indulge in ‘schoolboy pranks’.
    Women teachers may also unwittingly perpetuate low expectations of boys’ academic achievement and encourage girls to work harder by letting them think they are cleverer.
    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1307856/Boys-held-women-teachers-gender-stereotypes-reinforced-classroom.html#ixzz1QbKjVLVJ

  88. AB says:

    Doctormindbeam, I don’t need to prove a goddamn thing. I made a post in which I said that both men and women sometimes exhibit less than optimal behaviour and unwittingly sabotage themselves. To quote myself: “the behaviour of many women is less optimal than it could be, and it would be a good thing if we helped women become more assertive (or less focussed on having the perfect home, and more willing to involve men child-rearing, and all sorts of other areas where women are sabotaging themselves).”

    Can we agree that the above paragraph is about women? If so, how come you only called me out for saying that there were also non-constructive behaviours exhibited by many guys which were equally problematic for them? I’m fine with you not agreeing with my observations, but saying that I’m a sexist merely for making them is uncalled for, and completely ignoring the comments I make about women and then specifying that you think I’m sexist for doing it against boys is against everything you and others claimed this blog was supposed to avoid.

    Furthermore, I’m fine with you not understanding what I was actually saying. Perhaps the meaning “Just as there are tendencies of women behaving in certain ways which negatively influence them, the same holds true for boys, and I think it’s a shame it seems like we can’t even talk about it” didn’t come across as clear as I intended. I’m not a native English speaker, and I accept that I my language-patterns sometimes differ from what people are used to, and that I will have to clarify myself more than I usually do.

    But when I clarify in the next post that I was completely equal in my treatment of the sexes (quote: “I’m saying that men and women both sometimes sabotage things for themselves, and both engage in behaviours that are less than optimal, and both of them probably mostly do it unintentionally”), the correct response would have been to apologise and/or explain how I can rephrase it for future occasions, not accusing me yet again of making sexist claims about boys (and once again completely ignoring what I’ve said about the female half of the population).

    The funny thing was that I made a bunch of very concrete claims about what I’ve observed in many girls and women: Not being assertive enough, being too focussed on having the perfect home, and not involving men in child-rearing, but I didn’t say a single thing about boys and men, except that they had their own negative tendencies sometimes, and yet you’re asking me to prove the claims I (didn’t) make about boys, while completely neglecting to tell me if you have really never experienced or heard about a woman being so preoccupied with her role as a mother that she ended up pushing the father away from the children.

  89. doctormindbeam says:

    @AB:

    My understanding of the essential point of your post was this:

    It’s a bit like how discussions of femininity (at least among feminists) are usually critical, […] but whenever someone tries to point out the same about masculinity, a group of people (usually absent when femininity was discussed) immediately jumps in and start talking about how good and precious (every aspect of) masculinity is, how it’s being demonised by misandrists, and how men aren’t allowed to be men any more.

    It wouldn’t do me any good to give some of the negative behaviour I’ve observed in young men, or how I think it relates to their bad performance and lack of interest in academics, as long as that double standard is in effect.

    Following on the heels of:

    So when things are pretty much the same except for changes which are supposed to benefit boys, and they still don’t do any better, it’s a shame that any discussion of the subject is locked on the idea that it must be because boys are either treated worse, or because boys are a certain way naturally, and that the only choice is for everybody else to adapt around the boys. Because I’ve seen too many indications that this is an inadequate strategy, or worse, serves more to decrease the performance of girls than raise the performance of boys.

    If this is not the message you’re intending to convey, I’d be glad to stand corrected.

    As a final note, please read the comment policy.

  90. Richard Aubrey says:

    Some years ago, I read an article asserting that the number of times teachers “called on” boys in class–more than they “called on” girls and thus was a Very Bad Thing–included disciplinary comments. IOW, sit down, please. Etc.
    Without that, it might have been even. Or not, Info didn’t say.
    Hardly done without an intent to screw with the figures.
    Seems to me an article of faith that boys and girls should be capable of equal results in formal school. Is there any hard empirical work to demonstrate that is the case, or anything engraved on titanium we must all take as gospel?

  91. AB says:

    I read the comment policy, it didn’t say anything about calling people sexist (obviously), which was my first impression, but I tried to be more civil. Honestly, if you want to convey that the part you’re focussing on is that it’s more acceptable to criticise negative aspects of femininity than masculinity, you could have said so.

    But your actual posts are all about how I’ve implied that (some) boys exhibit certain behaviours which work against them. “What possibly do you believe is wrong with the boys that needs to be changed? Frankly your comment smells slightly sexist to me.” There is nothing in there which suggests that you believe my points about the way we discuss masculinity and femininity are wrong, only that I have implied that boys are doing something wrong (which is somehow a much bigger problems than the negative behaviours of women I described).

    And this “seeing individual boys behaving badly is not indicative of some gender-wide trend needing correcting. Unless you, AB, can put up conclusive evidence, it’s not a double standard, it’s just simply rejecting a baseless assertion.”. Unless what you mean by it is that I obviously believe that women are capable of discussing femininity and hearing critiques of it and men (which somehow turn into boys) are not, and that the ‘bad behaviour’ refers to this, it again only communicates that I have indicated that there are problematic behaviours exhibited by some boys (which I think we should help them overcome btw), and that you believe this is sexist.

    And I know the comment policy says to not repeat the same point multiple times, but I feel I have to because you have categorically refused to address it: Why did you ignore what I said about women? It was the crux of my argument, the second (and longest) paragraph in the post was about girls and women, and how it was legitimate to discuss that they were sometimes sabotaging themselves, but the same didn’t seem to be true when talking about boys and men. Why don’t you require proof for the behaviours I listed as problematic in some women? Why do you accept that I think there are behaviours more typical in women than in men which I think are problematic? Because you seemed to have a big enough problem with the indication that there are problematic behaviours among boys.

  92. Jim says:

    I know there is a tendency to see ADD in boys. And I was told in my teaching course to look out for it in girls because it gets ignored – the boys are actually ADHD and act out and have to be dealt with (even when it’s not ADHD) but the girls just sit and dream. And in my first semester I observd just that. One date point.

    A lot of this is behavioral and that is very culture-dependent. That means that teachers have to rely on thnier own cultural norms of what is or is not proper behavior for the specific student. You can drive a tank through that one on gender, and it also impacts how kids outside the teacher’s culture are preceived. Minority kids are very rarely identified as gifted because it is common to interpret their gifted behaviors as merely disruptive. (Giftedness is strictly speaking a special needs condition, so maybe it’s an easy mistake.) And let me back up – even within your own culture this is an easy mistake to make.

  93. Jim says:

    Hopmogenaization – in the US it was also a paltform for homogenizing immigrant kids into mainstream Anglo culture. Even in the parallel catholic school system this was a major objective. It wsn’t hard, at least on the surface, since most European immigrants wanted to slough their languages and peasant cultures like dead skin, for a number of reasons.

  94. Jim says:

    “Of course this assumes that you have adequate preparation throughout primary and secondary education to qualify, and that is lacking for a lot of groups, especially rural, poor, and minority students.”

    A friend of mine experienced this directly. For family reasons he moved form a good suburban school in Olympia, Washington to a rural school in Goldendale. Dramatic difference – there were math and science classes he needed that were simply unavailable – no enrollments -> no resources -> no enrollements…..

  95. Jim says:

    “I think it’s interesting that when boys and men are the subject of gender discussions, people seem much more reluctant to point out their potentially problematic behaviour than when the subject is girls and women.”

    Were you off planet throughout the whole decade of the nineties when there was an uproar about the Girl Crisis in education! That comment is just bizarre.

  96. Jim says:

    “Finally, “learning styles” — while real — are not gender-based.”
    Clarence, if this is the last sentence you are referring to, it is correct. “Learning styles ” refer to orietnation toward verbal vs. visual information-gathering, abstract vs. concrete modes of thought, and though it may skew one way or the other statstically, it’s the individual child that matters.

  97. doctormindbeam says:

    @AB: I don’t want to be rude, so I’ll be honest and simple with you. I don’t really understand what it is you’re trying to say. I gather that you’re very angry, but I can’t follow why. If this is an issue of a language barrier (you mentioned that English wasn’t your first language), I apologize; I read through what you said several times and I must be missing something.

    I didn’t address those parts of your post because it didn’t concern me to, and they did not seem to be the crux of your argument. I have already shown you what I believe you were trying to say; if I’m wrong, please tell me as much. Let me re-summarize again for you my understanding: I believe that you are making a case that there is a behavior that is inherent to boys that is the cause of their failures in school. I have asked you to substantiate this notion. If this isn’t what you were trying to convey, I apologize, but you will have to tell me what it is, then.

  98. doctormindbeam says:

    Giftedness is strictly speaking a special needs condition, so maybe it’s an easy mistake.

    This is interesting. What do you mean?

  99. Cheradenine says:

    You did note that my argument for sexual differences was statistical in nature , right?

    Yes. You did notice that my counterargument for why this doesn’t count for toffee in the real world was also statistical in nature, right?

    I’m guessing you didn’t, otherwise you wouldn’t need to ask the question.

    So I’ll be clearer: I personally don’t care whether there are tiny tiny differences in the neuroanatomy of the statistically-average XX-chromosomal human vs the statistically-average XY-chromosomal human. I only care about the lived experiences of actual human beings, who are almost never statistically-average. You are focusing on either the mode or mean of a sample, and ignoring the entire rest of the bell-curve — the vast majority of which overlaps with the other bell curve. And those people — because those are real-life human beings under that bell curve — matter, and you’re erasing them.

    And when I say bell curve, I really mean bell curves. Because, for example, even if every single alleged neuroanatomical difference between XX and XY brains was proved to be correct? They would still be utterly crushed by the difference between, say, introverts and extroverts, or left-handers and right-handers, to pick just two very obvious examples.

  100. Daran says:

    Daran, your counter-analysis isn’t as devastating as you’d like it to be.

    My counter-analysis speaks for itself. It fully supports the statement that “the gap between boys and girls in the mostly white, affluent community was about the same size as that in the predominantly non-white and poor community”, and provides weak evidence against the proposition that “in the US … the gap is much smaller between white boys and girls.”

    “Weak” because it’s based upon a single data-point. Your statement that it “isn’t as devastating as you’d like it to be”, is premised upon unstated assumptions about what I’d like, that almost certainly aren’t accurate. What I’d like, that this point, is a better understanding of the problem.

    But that said, even you admit that there’s a disproportionate impact on poor minority boys

    To “admit” in ordinary (non-legal) parlance means to acknowledge something embarrassing or damaging to ones cause or position. Your use of the word is again premised upon unstated assumptions about my cause or position

    – and that impact is almost completely absent from the Gurian/Sax/Sommers analysis. They aren’t interested in class and race issues, probably because poor black parents aren’t the ones paying for expensive consultants.

    What do these people have to do with this discussion?

    And can you please provide supporting evidence for your claim that “in the US … the gap is much smaller between white boys and girls”, or, alternatively, admit that you don’t have any.

  101. AB says:

    @doctormindbeam
    (In regards to your latest post (6.01 PM))

    Ah, that explains a lot. I thought that by using women as the example and drawing the analogy to men, I was implying that the same held true about them, but it seems you read my comments about boys to be separate from those about girls and women, and meaning something different.

    I didn’t mean to suggest inherent differences. If I had, I most likely would have used words like ‘innate’ or ‘biological’. My example with the way feminists discussed female behaviour (i.e. acknowledging the reality of many women being less assertive while also discussing the cultural factors for why this might be so) was that I wish we could discuss male behaviour the same way. And in my experience, that rarely happens.

    Personally, I’ve seen more guys crash and burn from a reluctance to ask for help or admitting weakness, overestimating their own abilities, seeing every defeat as a personal insult, or simply deciding not to care, than anything else. The teacher can be male and willing to offer personal help and go over the same thing as many times as it takes, the material and teaching methods can be 40 years old, but the gap is still there.

    In my (Danish equivalent of) high-school/early college, two high-achieving guys offered free math tutoring every Thursday after school. The majority of girls showed up, but not a single boy even gave it a chance. By the end of the year, all the girls who attended passed their exams and usually did well, while several of the boys had either dropped out or failed. It didn’t have anything to do with the school, the guys who offered it were by no means feminist or hostile towards other guys, and it is statistically improbable that all the missing guys had worse inborn math skills than the girls.

    Incidentally, both of those high-achieving guys also ended up shooting themselves in the foot by placing to much importance on their superior skills and talents, resulting in some less than stellar performances when they took their exams, but since it was mostly in small things (e.g. deciding to ignore a certain subject because they deemed it irrelevant, knowing full well that the teacher wanted it to be included) and they were both very skilled, they weren’t failures as much as a waste of potential.

  102. aliarasthedaydreamer says:

    That last is a really really critical point — one of the misandric memes out there with pretty wide traction and influence is that men are more likely to be pedophiles or abuse children. Thus, the actions of men in relation to children are more closely scrutinized or overanalyzed than those of women (see also: men are violent rapist pigdogs). This has come from some weird sort of perversion of the worthy attention given to actual institutional abuse.

    Furthermore, men are still more logical and rational and bad at emotions, so of course a female teacher will be better at connecting with and nurturing her students, after all, that’s what women do best amirite? So in short, “teacher” — especially primary school teacher — is one of the professions that’s probably most actively sexist, misandric, and hostile to men.

    Also also, as far as I know false accusations of child molestation are an actual big deal. But I need to do more research on that one, so if anyone has links, let me know. If anyone wants to discuss how horrible those are, save it for when I post about that.

  103. Tamen says:

    Gifted pupils have a special need to be taught in a speed suitable to their capacity. Where I come from we have what we call unit school where all pupils go throught the same curriculum at the same speed. This suck for weak pupils as well as gifted pupils. Weak pupils are getting special education to some extent (as far as the individual school has bugdet for extra teachers). Gifted pupils have very rarely any special education and the reward for finishing your math assignments early is to get more of the same math assignments as those they’ve clearly mastered. This is a very strong disincentive and gifted pupils will get bored and that boredom will quite often result in disruptive behaviour. Too often this will result in the pupils getting wrongfully diagnosed with ADD/ADHD and labeled a weak pupils.

  104. aliarasthedaydreamer says:

    I’m jumping in here because while I like most of your post, I take exception to the idea that ADD and related difficulties are entirely made up disorders. Overdiagnosed and overmedicated at young ages, maybe and probably, but I’ve known several people of both genders whose lives were vastly improved by the treatment of their ADD. These are people who weren’t labeled by a teacher; they sought help as adults when having difficulties with focus and concentration. Medication and treatment has improved their health, productivity, and ability to do what they want in life, and so the idea that it’s just something that someone made up is pretty offensive.

  105. aliarasthedaydreamer says:

    Augh, I have nothing to say other than this this THIS.

  106. aliarasthedaydreamer says:

    Also, of strictly academic disciplines, the STEM fields are the ones more likely to land you a high-paying job.

    It’s interesting thinking about the way fields are talked about — the STEM fields are hard, demanding, intellectually rigorous and full of Real Stuff, while English is a wishy-washy exercise in Making Shit Up and Art is just an excuse for fucking off all day long, realizing at the last second you had a deadline, and then bringing your empty beer bottle to class and once again Making Shit Up.

    Nevermind that a studio class has as much in-class time as a lab class, that big art projects take a hell of a lot of time and energy and self-esteem to finish, that English majors turn out papers at an ungodly rate, and that come finals week I [physics] kick back and relax while my lit&lang friends spend days and nights and more days in the library.

    Now that I write this, I’m curious how the goalposts for what’s a “good, intellectually rigorous” field have been constructed over the years. Might it be something like sports, wherin something “should not be a sport if the best woman in the world can beat the best man”? (to paraphrase something some sports commentator said a while back)

  107. aliarasthedaydreamer says:

    Re: C) You know what’s a giant hive of sexism and misogyny? Nerds. I love nerds — am a nerd — but often feel like I have to “feel out” nerdy spaces without keeping my hopes up, because I’ve been disappointed a *lot*.

  108. doctormindbeam says:

    As best I can determine (full disclosure: I’m from the STEM world myself), people seem to perceive of those as being the “hard subjects.” You know, “math is hard” (everyone seems to just accept this prima facie), and physics is “confusing,” etc. This is in contrast to English, where there’s “no right answer,” or art, which is just “being creative.” (Not saying I believe any of these things, just echoing the sentiments I’ve heard.)

  109. doctormindbeam says:

    This is sadly true. I think it’s partly a self-fulfilling prophecy: Nerdy boys aren’t “cool,” and because they’re focused on formulas and experiments (or are somewhere on the Autism spectrum) they might have poorly-developed social skills, which means they get rejected by women more, which leads to anger and resentment, which leads to further poor socializing, etc. Also, because of the relatively low concentration of women in these fields, I think it can be easy to forget that, y’know, women are people too.

  110. Apologies, it was not my intention to suggest that they didn’t exist, and I regret that I worded it poorly. I do believe they exist, but I believe they are vastly overdiagnosed, especially in children, whose brain chemistry is still developing in ways that are poorly understood. I believe that, for children with ADD and ADHD, different teaching methods are, for most, probably a much healthier and helpful intervention than medication. And in general, not expecting the very young to sit silently in a classroom for quite so many hours of the day would significantly contribute to their abilities to learn. Thank you for calling me out on my poor choice of words!

    ETA: also the scarequotes around “disorders” and the like were not intended to indicate falsenes, but rather skepticism about the negativity of these conditions. I believe in neurodiversity and that it is entirely possible for the neurodiverse to be contributing and fantastic members of our society without having to alter themselves to fit neurotypical patterns.

  111. Huh. I just posted a comment with links to a bunch of organizations dedicated to getting women into the trades, but it doesn’t seem to have shown up, nor is there a “waiting for moderation” note. I am confused.

    Trying again:

    Hard Hatted Women comes immediately to mind — they’re about getting women into the construction trades. The main action happens in lots of local organizations, such as Nontraditional Employment for Women (NEW), Sisters in the Building Trades, Tradeswomen, Inc., Washington Women in Trades, Women in Construction Company, and
    Women Unlimited.

  112. Hi, Daran. I agree with you that my Westport/Bridgeport comparison was wrong, and thanks for pointing that out.

    That said, the original post is talking about college degrees (“But the bias accelerated, until by the present day, it’s more than 1.3:1 in favour of women — in other words, men now have the same status at university, as women did in the late 1960s!”).

    But looking at college degrees strongly supports Mythago’s claim. Looking at undergrad degrees, for instance, white middle-class and upper-class boys are as or more likely to get college degrees as their sisters. So are Asian boys of all classes. Boys are less likely to earn degrees only among low-income families, especially black and American Indian families. (See the chart here).

    So yeah, as Mythago says, “education fails boys” isn’t something that you can reasonably say about all US boys; it’s highly concentrated by class and race, and that has to be included in any analysis of why boys are less likely to go to college than girls.

  113. If race is an issue, then given that racial equity issues have slowly been improving since the 60s, why would male educational performance be declining?

    In the US, I don’t think male educational performance has been declining. Yes, the percentage college students who are male has declined — but that’s because women have been increasing their rate of college attendance, not because college attendance has been in decline among men. Men’s college attendance declined until the early 80s, and has risen ever since.

    Also, racial equity issues haven’t had a slow improvement since the 60s. Rather, there were major improvements in the 60s and 70s, but also major setbacks — especially the war on drugs, which is in effect a device for putting as many young black men in prison as possible.

    Whether discussing race or class, why would this disproportionately affect boys of whichever group, rather than both boys and girls?

    I don’t know, but here’s some speculation:

    1) Lower-class boys without a college degree in the US earn a lot more money than lower-class girls without college degrees. If there’s a threshold for what young people in a class find an acceptable income — “I have to earn at least this much, and if I can’t earn at least that much then I’m going to go to college” — then boys are more likely to reach their threshold than girls before attending college.

    2) Differing expectations lead teachers, parents, and the community in general to be more willing to give up on education for lower-class boys and for Black boys. So when a poor black girl — or a well-off white boy — screws up in school, they’re given more chances to recover from their failure, because they’re not expected to screw up.

    3) The so-called War on Drugs is far more likely to divert poor boys and black boys from school and into jail; relatively few well-off and white boys are effected by the war on drugs.

    4) It’s possible that stereotype threat isn’t as strong among some groups of boys as among others.

  114. Cheradenine says:

    Hi Barry,

    Thanks for your comments. A few notes:

    That said, the original post is talking about college degrees

    Well, my original post is actually talking about every level of education, from primary school and basic literacy targets to doctorates, in the USA, the UK and (tho not analysed in depth) Canada, and finding that the trends apply throughout.

    I think this is important to remember, because when you raise issues like the drug war sending kids to jail, you have to bear in mind that, while all those countries participate in the WoD, my understanding is that the insane incarceration rates are very much a US phenomenon. For example, here in the UK, we don’t have “three strikes” and relatively rarely send people to prison for personal-use possession. There are many other differences as well — yet there seem to be a lot of correlations in terms of the education gender gap.

    Also, although you say there have been setbacks in US racial equality (and it’s true), the overall trend has still been upwards. There’s another table of data from the same set as the ones used in my article which break things down by ethnicity, and if you plot degrees awarded to black students vs total degrees awarded, yes, there’s a nasty dip in the results in the 80s, which I suspect corresponds to political and law-enforcement changes, but there’s still overall a big improvement since 1976.

    That table also lets us break down M:F ratios by ethnicity, so let’s do that. What we find is that, because minorities are, well, in the minority, looking only at white students doesn’t significantly change the results, with a 1.27:1 female:male ratio (instead of 1.3:1) in the present day, up from 0.84:1 in 1976.

    Of course, you’re also right that the gap is even wider amongst the black students — where the ratio was always in favour of girls, interestingly. It’s grown from 1.3:1 in 1976, to 1.9:1 in the most recent figures!

    So yes, certainly, minority kids are being disproportionately affected by whatever has changed — but this doesn’t effect the thesis of the article.

    In the US, I don’t think male educational performance has been declining. Yes, the percentage college students who are male has declined — but that’s because women have been increasing their rate of college attendance, not because college attendance has been in decline among men. Men’s college attendance declined until the early 80s, and has risen ever since.

    I couldn’t find figures for the US that measure grades awarded rather than simply pass/fail, so I couldn’t compare that directly to the UK. But in the UK, male educational performance has been declining, and there’s no equivocation about the stats. Look at those STEM charts, for example — you can see that even though boys outnumber girls in almost all of those subjects, girls outperform boys in almost all of them. This chart from the BBC plots boys performance (not participation) relative to girls, over time. Sorry it doesn’t have more useful axes, I couldn’t quickly dig out the relevant data and I don’t have time to do a more detailed search right now. And this isn’t just girls improving their performance, according to the reports I’ve seen, boys’ performance has decreased.

    Finally, I haven’t addressed wealth yet, so here’s one more (fantastically useful) chart for the UK, showing GCSE results broken down by gender and whether or not the pupil is eligible for free school meals (which are “means-tested”, in other words, this tells us whether the pupil comes from a deprived background or not). It shows that being poor does make a huge difference to education outcomes. It also shows girls consistently ahead of boys from the same background, regardless of what that background is.

  115. Clarence says:

    High wage skilled careers is exactly what I was complaining about, and that is listed on their web page as being their priority. If there IS any sex discrimination on those garbage trucks apparently women could care less.

  116. doctormindbeam says:

    @Barry Deutsch: Interesting point there that I hadn’t considered. I can’t say I endorse it right off the bat (I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just have not done an analytic breakdown of the gender ratios along a class axis to look at it myself) but it does give rise to another question: If we make the assumption that although boys everywhere are less likely than girls to enter college, but poor/sufferers of racial prejudice are especially likely, what does that imply? Why would a poor black girl be more likely than a poor black boy to enter college?

    I’m thinking here that it might tie into the prison industrial complex (you’ve heard the stat, I’m sure, that there are now more black men imprisoned than were slaves prior to the Civil War), in that black men (to continue my example) are particularly disproportionately likely to be imprisoned and black women to be single mothers, and there’s a preponderance of evidence that indicates that a lack of a father or surrogate father male role model in a child’s life, particularly for boys, puts the child at substantially higher risk for violence, drug abuse, imprisonment himself, etc.

  117. doctormindbeam says:

    The large number of links caused it to be flagged by the spam filter. It looks like someone else cleared it up; I went ahead and removed the duplicate comment, though.

  118. I made a post about my own diagnosis. I recognize it has been over-diagnosed – although I think it’s mostly been over-diagnosed by non doctors (which means it ISN’T a diagnosis.)

    I wrote about my own testing process here:
    http://easilyenthused.blogspot.com/2011/03/attention-deficit-disorder.html

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  120. AlexInWonderland says:

    I’m coming on at the end here, and I haven’t read the comments, so please forgive me if I’ve missed anything.

    First of all, are boys doing worse in school, or just doing worse in school as compared to girls? That is, are boys pretty much holding their own over time and girls are improving, or are both improving (but girls improve more), or are boys getting worse while girls improve, or are girls holding steady while boys get worse, or are both girls and boys getting worse but boys worsening faster than girls? Some of these scenarios worry me much more than others, and at least one scenario doesn’t worry me at all (both improve, but one group improves faster).

    Second, since girls mature physically a little faster than boys, would it be better for girls to start school at age 4 as compared to boys age 5? Or girls start school age 5, but boys start at age 6…or both start at age 5, but have a grade between kindergarten and first grade for those who really aren’t ready (which would have been both my children, a girl and a boy, btw)?

    Third, maybe boys need some kind of preschool play like the girls’ princess role play to build self-esteem/confidence.

  121. Sylphstorm says:

    It’s pretty easy to explain the sexism of the four-year-old girls – children at that age are strongly inclined to sort themselves into groups, and the most obvious group we give children to sort themselves into is gender. Kids at that age, in our society, tend to have extremely rigid ideas about gender roles and the like because they’ve been hammered with all of this gender-stereotyped nonsense from both the media and, frequently, their parents. Girls have already been taught, at that age, that it’s easier for them to sit down and listen and empathize, and that “boys will be boys.” If you asked children at that age who was better at football then the answers would likely reverse.

  122. Sylphstorm says:

    I would also like to point out that the gendering of ADHD both hurts boys (who are frequently erroneously diagnosed, and in whom genuine diagnoses are often viewed with a stink-eye as a result) and girls (as a woman with severe ADHD, I wasn’t diagnosed as an adult because, after all, a girl with that problem just has issues with self-discipline). It’s a legitimate problem, and I am really, really tired of hearing how I am just “smart” and “bored.” I know what goes on in my own head, and it’s not just a self-discipline issue, but, because I am female, it is assumed that I’m just smarter than the other girls and just need to “learn to focus.” Chaos in your head is devastating no matter what your gender.

  123. Sylphstorm says:

    I agree with what you’re saying on gender, but I really, really wish that people who aren’t doctors would stop throwing in on how it’s totally overdiagnosed because, however good their intentions, they help to feed the myth that ADHD doesn’t exist, it’s in the heads of doctors, Big Pharma, and kids who just either need to learn self-discipline or who need a better system. It feeds the myth that ADHD is a simple inability to sit still (when, in reality, it falls across a spectrum of both hyperactivity and inattention, and the latter is rarely a cause for diagnosis, leaving kids without an obvious hyperactive component to slip through the cracks). It just, it does bad things for people of both genders to make it sound as though a legitimate mental illness is made-up just so that people can sell medication.

  124. Dr Anonymous says:

    Can you please show which of those links speak of women taking on unskilled labour in acts of solidarity with men and on the underlying motivation that all hardships in life should be shared.
    The only thing I can find in those links are the usual impetus that women should take on high-paying jobs in non-traditional profesions.

  125. ozymandias42 says:

    I just wrote a post about how there should be more women in the military…

  126. Can you please show which of those links speak of women taking on unskilled labour in acts of solidarity with men and on the underlying motivation that all hardships in life should be shared.

    And how many MRA groups are dedicated to getting more men to be garment sweatshop workers? You know, out of solidarity.

    Just to be clear, I don’t ask that MRAs do such a thing. Because that would be ridiculous.

    I think the standards your question implies are unrealistic, for either feminists or MRAs.

  127. ozymandias42 says:

    Also there are many women in unskilled labor. Maids, for instance, are overwhelmingly female. Men tend to be in the most dangerous unskilled jobs, which is a definite subject for critique, but it is simply inaccurate to say women don’t work them at all.

  128. Jess says:

    There seems to be some proof that the people saying course work is better suited to girls are correct.

    “Boys overtake girls in maths GCSE as coursework dropped”
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/aug/27/maths-gcse-coursework-dropped

  129. Jess says:

    Richard Aubery. The was a fraud perpetuated in the 90s called the “girl crises”. Lots of claims were made about how girls were being held back. None of was true but it was used to justify rigging the system to discriminate in favor of girls.

  130. Dr Anonymous says:

    “And how many MRA groups are dedicated to getting more men to be garment sweatshop workers? You know, out of solidarity.”
    Why don’t you ask the MRAs about that? I am not an MRA.

    “I think the standards your question implies are unrealistic, for either feminists or MRAs.”
    That you can’t demand equality in the glamour, but not in the unglamorous jobs?

  131. AB says:

    People usually don’t take jobs out of solidarity, and those who do tend to be activists doing activism. If women have trouble getting into the unskilled jobs men are currently holding, and men have trouble getting into unskilled jobs women are currently holding, then that’s worth looking at. If a profession is in need of more workers of another sex because it benefits the field as a whole, then it’s also worth looking at. And if members of one sex have trouble getting into skilled and/or well-paid jobs and are therefore forced to take another job, then it’s worth doing something about.

    But saying that if women (or men) don’t voluntarily enter something they consider a crappy job solely out of sympathy for the men (or women) who would otherwise hold that crappy job, then women (or men) are not justified fighting sex discrimination, is just absurd. Making a workplace more welcoming to members of a certain sex is one thing,

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