I’m often frustrated by some of the issue coverage at Feministe, though I also envy some of the excellent writing they’ve got. This piece by Jill, however, is an unequivocal condemnation of the rape of men in the U.S. prison system, and framed in terms designed to speak to the kind of feminist who hasn’t really given a lot of thought to men’s issues.
One overlap, though, between prison rape of men and non-prison rape of women is the way American society views both as an inevitability. That plays out in different ways, but there’s a sense that incarceration must naturally lead to rape (see, e.g., “don’t drop the soap!” jokes), and that femaleness is inherently sexually tempting and therefore also leads to rape if you’re not vigilant about preventing it (see, e.g., every rape prevention tactic that focuses on what women should or should not do — don’t walk home alone, don’t wear revealing clothing, etc etc). At the same time, inevitability is tempered by the perceived ability to prevent rape if you just do things “right” — don’t commit a crime so that you end up in jail, don’t break any of the Rape Avoidance Rules For Ladies. It’s a convenient way to conceptualize assault — if you just behave yourself, you won’t be a victim.
Now, I think she could maybe take a little more time to look at rape of men in the general population, but the point she’s making is about prison rape and its function in the culture, so that’s what she focuses on. Also, as much as I’ve sometimes griped about intersectionality issues, it’s nice to see someone nail it with a heavy-hitting paragraph like this:
It’s also impossible to separate this issue out from racism, classism, ableism and homophobia. The U.S. prison population (including ICE immigration holding facilities) is disproportionately black and Latin@. Prisoners disproportionately come from low-income backgrounds. Prison populations also include many individuals with intellectual disabilities and untreated mental health issues, as well as histories of violent victimization which can lead to mental and physical health issues. And we’re imprisoning millions of people who are not actually violent and aren’t actually dangerous. Among non-incarcerated victims of sexual violence, women with disabilities are far more likely to be targeted for sexual abuse than women who are able-bodied and/or don’t have developmental disabilities. Native women have the highest sexual assault rates of any other racial or ethnic group in the United States. Stats for trans women and men are slightly more difficult to come by, since as far as I can tell they aren’t noted in the DOJ surveys, but every reputable study I’ve seen indicates that trans people experience sexual assault at significantly higher rates that cis people. Black trans folks in the prison system are assaulted at particularly astounding rates — around 30% report being assaulted while in jail or police custody.
I’ve known a couple trans folks who’ve been arrested in their time, and… yeah, it ain’t good.
Anyway, go read the whole thing. It’s worth a good long look.
aliarasthedaydreamer
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2020
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Cliff Pervocracy
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No, Seriously, What About Teh Menz? 
The original n+1 piece is definitely worth a read, too. Though I kind of wish Jill had left out the whole “Is America the only country where more men are raped than women?” question, as it’s quite unprovable and a bit of a distraction, I thought she did a good job of pointing out the intersectional issues. Every time I read about this I become more convinced that the prison system is one of the most pressing human rights issues of our time. Atul Gawande has done some amazing work on this issue in The New Yorker, which I very much recommend to anyone who’s further interested.
People from here might want to avoid the comments at Feministe though. Don’t ask me how Jill’s writing attracts such a nitpicky group. They generally make reading comments on any post that hits close to home a rather harrowing experience.
Yeah, I noticed how quickly many commenters honed in on how men are the perpetrators. When it was pointed out that male inmates are more likely to suffer sexual abuse from their guards than from other inmates it was pointed out that it was absurd that women would guard men and when it was pointed out that there indeed are female guards guarding men then the commenter voiced a disbelief that a female guard could in any way coerce a large strong male inmate. Weapons and other forms of power a guard holds over an inmate didn’t occur to her. Another commenter pointed out that this is what you get when you put together a lot of criminal men together with a few guards into a constrained area.
No commenters were willing to look at these fact:
Contrary to common belief the most common victimization by men in prisons and jails are not inmate-on-inmate victimization, but rather what the BJS calls “staff sexual misconduct”:
Inmate-on-inmate: 33.929 victims
Staff sexual miconduct: 53.455 victims – 64-69% of these reported a female perpetrator. An additional 16-17% reported both female and male perpetrators.
(I operated with a range since BSJ reported one number for prison and the other for jail – I didn’t take the time to calculate the exact percentage, but it is somewhere between the two numbers I’ve quoted).
For female inmates it’s the opposite: the majority of victims were victims of inmate-on-inmate rather than of “staff sexual misconduct”:
7.797 vs. 3.608. Of the 3.608 62-71% reported male perpetrator while the remaining 29-38% were either female perpetrarors or both male and female perpetrators. Given that the majority of institutions are gender segregated – only 4 of the surveyed institutions where women were measured were co-ed institutions and those were not outliers in the rate of inmate-on-inmate victims – it seems likely that the majority of perpetrators of sexual assault, sexual violence and sexual rape of female inmates are women. Yet, when people point out that female inmates are suffering from sexual abuse at a higher rate than male inmates it’s never acknowledged that it’s women who perpetrate the major part of this abuse.
(source: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf)
This combined with the finding of NISVS 2010 where 79.2% of the men who reported being made to penetrate someone else reported a female perpetrator paints a totally different picture of the extent women are perpetrators of sexual violence and abuse than most people believe or think. I believe it’s high time that the onus and focus are ALSO put on female perpetrators as a means to try to reduce incidents of sexual violence and abuse inside and outside prisons. There are commonly held gender essential beliefs which enables female perpetrators and two of the major are the disbelief that women are capable of such abuse (both morally and physically) and the disbelief that any man can be coerced/forced into any sexual activity by a woman. We need to stop that enablement.
Well said Tamen. I still can’t help but find Jill’s piece minimising though in that prison rape has to be tied back to how women are seen in society, immediately jumping to that conclusion seems to cut off a large range of opportunities to actually explore the topic and attempt to see it as a problem in it’s own right rather than merely an addendum to a another problem. It seems strange that throughout history we have ‘femmephobia’ rather than something like ‘enforced powerlessness’ or similar – framing problems specifically in terms of gender isn’t always helpful.
This seems like a good article. Any problems that one could find in probably result from either a) not reading the CDC survey, or b) getting tricked by it. (I swear its designed to trick people.)
It’s nice to see another male rape blogpost from Feministe. However, this doesn’t just seem “framed in terms designed to speak to the kind of feminist who hasn’t really given a lot of thought to men’s issues”, it’s also framed in terms that allow them to continue not to give any thought to men’s issues. By treating men being raped as a side consequence of a rape culture aimed primarily at women, it gives readers who (for example) treat rape as a synonym for women being raped by men, or who refuse to listen to male victims, or even who think male victims are a distraction from the more important female victims a justification to carry on thinking that way, safe in the knowledge that because helping female victims will help male victims they don’t actually have to spare any time thinking about or listening to those male victims. For example, take this comment by ginmar in reply to that blog post:
“I suspect the MRAs are going to be pissing themselves over this study, but the size of the respective pools is what jumps out at me. This will not lead MRAs to realize that letting rape against women rage out of control as it has affects men; they’ll find a way to blame this on women, and they will do absolutely nothing.”
Notice how she makes this all about women being raped and assumes that the solution is to do something about the rape of women specifically. (It’s actually worse in context; she later gets called out on it and portrays not treating male rape victims as fundamentally less important than the “primary” female victims of rape as denying reality, using language that frames doing so as being anti-feminist.)
Lamech: yeah, the CDC research pretty much is. Their latest study intentionally doesn’t categorise men who were forced to penetrate someone else as having been raped because their purpose for collecting that data is to prove that other studies are over-counting the number of male rape victims by including them; it’s in the discussion section of their report.
Makomk do you have a link for the last part about the CDC? That seems unbelievable if true!
Yep. CDC full report, Discussion section on page 84:
“As an example of prevalence differences between the National Intimate Partner and Sexual
Violence Survey and other surveys, the lifetime prevalence estimate of rape for men in this report is lower than what has been reported in other surveys (e.g., for forced sex more broadly) (Basile, Chen, Black, & Saltzman, 2007). This could be due in part to the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey making a distinction between rape and being made to penetrate someone else. Being made to penetrate is a form of sexual victimization distinct from rape that is particularly unique to males and, to our knowledge, has not been explicitly measured in previous national
studies. It is possible that rape questions in prior studies captured the experience of being made to penetrate someone else, resulting in higher prevalence estimates for male rape in those studies.”
They also neglected to provide any information about what proportion of that was men being made to penetrate the perpetrator and what proportion was them being made to penetrate a third party, despite collecting information on this, which together with some slightly misleading wording and information about the gender of the perpetrators not being in the executive summary lead to one widely read Daily Kos piece claiming this was actually evidence that men were forcing other men to rape women – portraying the perpetrator as the victim and vice-versa!
Nice – so it’s unique to men so can’t be counted as rape despite being pretty much an identical set of circumstances…
Eh… I think the former is seen as a hell of a lot more inevitable, and a hell of a lot less serious an issue (even so far as being seen as part of the punishment of the prison sentence), than the latter.
Other than that, not a bad article. Progress is slowly being made within mainstream feminism! Yay!
As others have noticed, though, the comments are erasing victims (both male and female) of female perpetrators. Which is not to say that I hold blogs responsible for their comments (unless they’re heavily moderated)–I don’t. Just saying there’s still a long way to go.
I would like to say that I’m still incensed that safety tips are so easily dismissed. But, hey, let’s try and live in a world where we can close our ears and eyes and assume that as long as we wish hard enough everyone’s going to be a good little boy/girl/other and not commit any crimes or do anything mean or say anything rude or hurt anyone.
Thank you for a very strong post here to point out more about how our society always blames the victim, if indirectly a lot of the time. What about boot-training the would be perps to “keep it in their pants.” They are NOT animals; they are people and should be held fully accountable–and trainable–accordingly!
@superglucose:
Agreed. I’m an avid cyclist, and the fact that I was taught to bike defensively and wear a helmet doesn’t mean that the people who taught me that think it’s my fault if a car runs a red and hits me.
In fact, I did get in an accident, and all witnesses unequivocally said that the car was at fault (I had right of way, and the car hit-and-ran). But my friend who was biking behind me at the time did later tell me that I could have prevented it if I hadn’t been biking down that hill so fast. If we want to demonize my friend, we could say he was victim blaming. But if we want to be realistic, we could say that he cares about me and views me as an adult who can learn to better protect myself in an imperfect world.
This is not to say that victim blaming doesn’t happen. It does. But it’s extremely frustrating and (IMO) counter-productive that well-meaning advice is lumped in with it.
“Agreed. I’m an avid cyclist, and the fact that I was taught to bike defensively and wear a helmet doesn’t mean that the people who taught me that think it’s my fault if a car runs a red and hits me.”
But in any other situation would you take for granted that risks presented by gravity, motion, weather, etc., apply to human beings?
Granbee: Maybe I am overly sensitive here, but to me “keep it in your pants” is a gendered expression which I have only heard directed at men (“it” refers to the penis). The closest female gendered expression I can think of is “keep your legs shut”. In essense saying that all will be solved if only men keep their penises in check erases victims of sexual violence and abuse from female perpetrators – this also include the majority of female inmates who were victims of sexual violence and abuse while incarcerated. This ties into the point I made in my first comment on this thread.
If you didn’t intend such erasure then consider this a critique of your choice of words rather than a critique of your character.
superglucose:”I would like to say that I’m still incensed that safety tips are so easily dismissed. ” I think the knee-jerk reaction that feminists have to rape prevention tips is that they often are just useless terrible advice, or a form of slut shaming in disguise. So for example when someone suggests “shouldn’t wear a short skirt”, its not worthwhile advice. People aren’t going to choose clothing choices based on saftey. If anyone did that they would be in body armor. (If anyone says this and reguarly wears armor all the time I guess you get a pass.) Sometimes its advice that if useful, isn’t practical so for example “be covered by a sniper team” while that may do a rather good job of preventing rape most people can’t hire a sniper team. Sometimes it is advice that has nothing* to do with rape at all like “shouldn’t sleep around so much” would a rapist even know about that?
The knee-jerk reaction is understandable, even if it sometimes is innapropriate.
Am I the only one that got the feeling that that post went from “look at this data on the rape of men in prison” to “look at this data on the rape of women”?
But progress is progress I suppose.
There is a very negative outlook on homosexual sex and I think this plays out when it comes to men accused of crimes. And I say accused because there have been too many times I’ve heard people say that a man that’s been charged or accused of something (and not always a sex crime) “deserves to be raped in prison”. Its like they think homosexual sex between men is not something that can be just sex between guys but rather its a punishment (or an unholy abomination that is worth a trip to hell). Which feeds into the “there’s not innocent criminals” bit near the end. Men are criminals and they deserve to be punished.
And really the idea that men “deserve” to be raped doesn’t warrant the mention of misandry but it does warrant two nods to misogyny?
…U.S. prison system, and framed in terms designed to speak to the kind of feminist who hasn’t really given a lot of thought to men’s issues.
But sugar coated with just enough, “Its really all about how women are treated and what happens to men is just a side effect of that.” so said feminists will hopefully get it?
For example, take this comment by ginmar in reply to that blog post:
That woman drives down the property value of a lot of feminist spaces.
When I read the title I thought, “Wow! This is really good”, but then it seemed to devolve into more of the same. I don’t think it is a stretch to say that feminists have been on the right side of the (majority male in absolute numbers) prison rape issue for a long long time. However the only reason the article got picked up by Jill was source’s statement “…making the United States the first country in the history of the world to count more rapes for men than for women.”, which she promptly begins to “nuance”.
So no progress points for Jill putting anything new on the table because most feminists have already got it right on this narrow issue and everything she says fits into the rape-culture framework. She would have got a gold star if she simply ran the posting on prison rape and pushed for prison/sentencing reform. If she wanted to extend the discussion into the general population she should have added in the CDC numbers. I’m almost certain she’s aware of them, but for some reason doesn’t want to go there.
I like the fact feminists are talking about prison rape. Those guys who are sexually abused by other inmates are often victimized repeatedly. I don’t like when discussions of rape devolve into what I’ve called victim sizing (oppression olympics I think feminists call it) But what I dislike even more is the ‘victim/perpartor equivalence blaming’ which means those who dismiss prison rape because it’s usually male on male.
Moreover, prison rape is still accepted in our society as the norm. What kind of person would cheer for the repeated rape of a man because they broke the law?
@Kyle: Ah yes, victim sizing. Jill did something really good here, she went out of her way to make sure that didn’t happen. She specifically said we don’t really know and the answer isn’t important. She even did this in the comments. She handled this fairly well.
the disbelief that any man can be coerced/forced into any sexual activity by a woman
I would like to see some dramatizations, because I can’t imagine it in my mind. I just can’t see it. Never have seen it. Never had it described to me by anyone. Never read it in a novel or nonfiction book. Its like trying to imagine purple cows or something.
I think some movies-of-the-week or TV shows might help. I am quite serious, I think most people are like me and just have no way to think about what they have never seen or heard about before. This will take further education.
BTW, in total agreement, this was a good piece. I hate hate hate all the jokes about prison rape in our society, don’t drop the soap, etc, I find it repulsive, immoral and disgusting. The idea that it “goes along with the punishment” is utterly repugnant to me, and I also hate when TV shows I usually enjoy (Law and Order Criminal Intent) engage in that shit. HATE. IT. Really just horrific beyond words, a *scandal* that this is considered fodder for jokes and an acceptable “extra punishment” for anyone who goes to prison.
Daisy: You’ve asked that question a little over three years ago and it spawned a thread on Feminist Critics (Can Women Rape Men: http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2009/01/05/can-women-rape-men-rp/) where myself and others told personal accounts of ways which this has happened. Yet you say that you never had it described to you by anyone? Yet you still can’t imagine it happening? Yet James Landrith and I and many others are no more real and believable to you than purple cows? You’re absolutely right that further education is needed, however I’ll be blunt and say that when you still aren’t able to comprehend female on male rape after three+ years despite writing on that thread that your intent was to listen and learn I have to ask myself whether that stems from an unwillingness or from an inability to understand. Either options is depressing.
You ask for dramatizations and here are a few I picked up mostly from TV Tropes. Some I have seen myself, others I have not.
Films:
Horrible Bosses. This is discussed in a couple of posts in this blog: https://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2011/07/15/why-%E2%80%9Chorrible-bosses%E2%80%9D-is-a-step-forward-for-masculists/
Another example is Disclosure (1994) with Michael Douglas is coerced into sex by Demi More (description on IMDB: A computer specialist is sued for sexual harassment by a former lover turned boss who initiated the act forcefully, which threatens both his career and his personal life.)
M*A*S*H the film where a character is given a sleeping pill (under the disguise as a assisted suicide pill) and a female character has sex with him.
“Wedding Crasher”. She literally ties him up while he’s asleep and when he wakes up tapes his mouth shut to stop his protests.
Clint Eastwood film “The Rookie” as a punishment to the tied up relentless tough cop by his captor woman.
“40 days and 40 nights” – an ex-girlfrfiend starts to have sex with him up while he is asleep (and chained to his bed). He is later forced to apologize for this to his girlfriend who walked in on them.
“Police Academy” – Sgt. Callahan forces herself on George Martin.
“Almost Famous” has a scene where a flock of 18-to-20-year-old girls have sex with a 15-year-old boy, shouting “deflower the kid!”
Mythology:
In mythology Sir Galahad was conceived when his father Sir Lancelot were drugged and raped twice.
Litterature:
The protagonist in “The World according to Garp” is a result of his mother raping a brain-damaged World War II gunner.
Ken Follet’s “World without end”.
Not sure if you’re into sci-fi, but C.J. Cherry touches upon the theme of men raped by women in her novels “Cyteen” and “Downbelow station”.
TV:
You mentioned Law & Order. Law & Order: Special Victims Unit has an episode called “Ridicule” about a bachelorette party which ends with a male stripper being handcuffed to the bed and gang-raped by three women. There are also other episodes dealing with female perpetrators of sexual violence.
In the critically acclaimed series “Oz” the female prison guard Claire Howell raped many male inmates. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oz_%28TV_series%29)
“Picket Fences” had one episode (“Unlawful Entries”) where a man was raped by a woman who thought he was “saying no when he really means yes”.
In “Desperate Housewives” Orson was drugged and raped by his ex-wife.
It apparently happens in a lot of Star Trek:The Original series episodes: “A Private Little War”, “”The Wink of an Eye”.
Buffy have several examples – for instance one where Buffy performs fellatio on Spike despite him saying no (http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/85912.html for a poll on more instances).
True Blood had a scene where Jason were raped by the women of Hot Shot.
On General Hospital, Jasper “Jax” Jacks is kidnapped by his brother’s Psycho Ex-Girlfriend, Irina. He is beaten over several days and then handcuffed to a bed, gagged and raped more than once. When he is finally rescued, everyone says that the situation was simply him cheating on his wife. In fact, when the writers were asked about it, they outright stated that men cannot get raped.
On an episode of ER Carter were accidentally knocked out by a class mate a female nurse and a female medical student performed an unnecessary genital and rectal exam.
The “Two Close to comfort” episode “For Every Man, There’s Two Women” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Too_Close_for_Comfort_episodes) Monroe is kidnapped and raped by two women.
Non-fiction:
Hugo Schwyzer on Role/Reboot relates a story where a woman had unconsentual sex with a man. Schwyzer is reluctant to call it rape though: http://www.rolereboot.org/sex-and-relationships/details/2012-01-erections-arent-consent-what-the-new-fbi-definitions
He does say men not infrequently talked to him about being pressured to go farther than they wanted and that he has been asked more than once by women if what they did were rape and he says he knows a sex educator told him she got these questions not infrequently.
@Daisy
For a specific example: my partner’s first time having sex was coerced. He was fifteen, his girlfriend I think was sixteen. They were in the ocean. She asked to have sex and he said no. She literally pulled down his trunks (if I remember correctly, she may have taken them off entirely and wouldn’t give them back) and more or less mounted him while he continued to say he didn’t want to. His only alternative would’ve been to physically remove her, possibly hurting her in the process and risking her claiming he assaulted her–which she later did when they broke up. He has never, to my knowledge, said he was raped. He has recounted it to me (in 6+ plus years), only that once, and said, “the first time I had sex, I didn’t want to.”
I think instances of women forcing men via sheer physical strength is less common than the reverse, but assault, coercion, pursuing sex when a man can’t fully consent (drunk, etc)? Absolutely.
“I would like to see some dramatizations, because I can’t imagine it in my mind. I just can’t see it.”
In a gentler tone than Tamen takes, here you go. Here’s a nasty one, and look at the knuckle-dragging commnets at your peril.
http://pjmedia.com/blog/ask-dr-helen-can-a-man-be-raped-by-a-woman/
The comments are worth a read because they are a fair representation of what male rape surivors face in reporting their rapes.
Tamen, one can “listen” until the cows come home, but unless something is acted out, it can be very hard to imagine. For me, anyway. I found the idea of DV against men generally hard to believe until I saw the TV clip in the other thread about it, and then I could “see” it in my mind. But my generation of women didn’t usually behave like that. I think some of my inability to imagine may be age-related, and you should maybe go easy on me… things are not easy for all generations to perceive simultaneously. I have grown up in an era in which people have laughed out loud about “women on men rape” and I’ve heard far more men say “Yeah! Sweet!” than I have expressing any concern over it. This may also be a class thing.
Most of the men of my age and class, whom I talk about with this, say men can’t be raped by women, period. I have had three major discussions in the past month or so about this subject… and it’s a Bizzaro Universe experience every time. (I have to keep remembering that early feminism was very similar, and yes, I find this analogy helpful… can’t remember who came up with it first.) One of these men has a Ph.D, so it isn’t stupidity, its perspective. Its a belief system.
A man I once knew very well was seduced at age 15, by his father’s girlfriend. I was very uncomfortable about that (this was the 70s) and since he seemed to think it was okay, I certainly never called it rape, even if it WAS statutory rape. I even remember arguing with him over it that it was NOT okay, and he argued that it was. (should I mention he considered himself a male feminist?) So, please understand my confusion. CONFUSION is the word.
Good examples you have given, but they are open to “debate”–in fact “Disclosure” in particular, generated a ton of debate, at the time, with lots of media MEN giving it harsh reviews and calling it bullshit. I liked the movie though. But it seemed women actually liked it more than men did!
“Almost Famous” has a scene where a flock of 18-to-20-year-old girls have sex with a 15-year-old boy, shouting “deflower the kid!”
This one started a fight on the old Ms boards. The author/director of that movie, Cameron Crowe, claims it actually happened to him (and just exactly like it was written) and the two men I saw the movie with, thought the scene amounted to CC bragging about it. The fact that so many people (both men and women) had mixed feelings about it (as evidenced by the Ms thread), is interesting. My question, if it was shameful, why did he include it in a movie as a good thing?
These mixed-messages are why I think some of us have trouble.
But I have to say, the STAR TREK examples are really reaching. “The Wink of an Eye”? You gotta be kidding. No. Just…no.
“My question, if it was shameful, why did he include it in a movie as a good thing? ”
Because that’s one of the only ways men are told to cope with pain. Either with incredible anger…or let it roll off your back like it was nothing at all, even beneficial. See how army scars are treated.
Gingko, yes that one is easy to envision, and thanks for the account. That is the kind of detail and description I respond to. I can understand what motivated him.
@Daisy: You are about a hair’s breadth from this shit. (For the record, the linked post is quoting a post by notorious rape advocate Roosh V that was so awful even he took it down.) You wouldn’t put up with someone saying of female rape victims “Oh, I dunno, I can’t really believe that… Oh, all those examples? Well, I think a lot of them are gray areas…” but that’s pretty much what you’re doing and you need to cut it RIGHT the fuck out. If you want to ask and learn, that’s great, but male victims get enough “Oh, you couldn’t really have been raped” shit without getting it here. Do I make myself clear?
“I have grown up in an era in which people have laughed out loud about “women on men rape” and I’ve heard far more men say “Yeah! Sweet!” than I have expressing any concern over it. This may also be a class thing.”
I don’t doubt that you heard that Daisy but the thing is when people imagine stuff like that its usually on their own terms, like a guy can imagine getting into a brawl on the street and think about how he’d totally kick ass even though he has no formal training in self defence. If he actually were to get into a confrontation like that he’d find that the realities of unarmed combat are a hell of allot more painful than he bargained for.
Likewise in the case of F on M rape a guy might think it would be totally hot to have some woman do that to him because in his head he gets to control how the situation plays out. If such a scenario was to play out in real life I think it would be a different story he’d find it a hell of allot more degrading and humiliating when someone comes in and violates his personal space like that.
Worse still he’d have nowhere to go and no one to talk to about it because of our cultures pervasive meme that men are always up for it.
Noah, is it okay to go over the examples Tamen provided, like the one below?
I am talking about the mixed signals in the culture, not whether men are raped. Of course they are, duh. (I *can* read.) I thought my post about the 15-year-old made that clear, but I guess not. My point was that HE didn’t even see it that way.
Men often do not label an incident as rape and if they markedly do not label it as such, that is probably why I have trouble seeing it. (Obviously, if something is not labeled properly, that is an excellent reason why we can’t see it.) The fact that so many of Tamen’s examples are part of the mixed signals I was complaining about, helps make my point, don’t you think? (Well, maybe not… you obviously regard my point as shit.)
I am also talking about my experience as an older woman living in the conservative, working class south. I am describing the things I hear from men, and what I have been taught. Why am I not allowed to address that? Believe me, I am not as crude about it as some of the men I have been talking to, really. We don’t all come from good schools, good families and good homes. Some of us have to work hard to learn progressive ideas; our knowledge is hard-won, but when we finally get it, we get it, and then we fight for it. I gave vegetarians grief for 38 years, and then finally one day, meat looked like guts and gore, and it was disgusting… and I never looked back. And I am very grateful the vegetarians didn’t give up on me in the meantime! 🙂 I would ask you not to do the same, and not to be so harsh.
What kind of person do you think I am? (don’t believe the hype)
Schala, Crowe appears to be unabashedly celebrating it. In fact, as a director, he told the actors to make it look “like a carousel”, since he thought it was a similarly fun, youthful experience. Note: I did not make that fact up and should not be banned for saying it, Tamen is the one who brought up “Almost Famous” as a rape example.
THESE ARE THE MIXED SIGNALS I am talking about… one person will see this movie one way, and someone else will see it another way… I very much doubt that all people seeing it would condemn it as rape. Of course, with the genders reversed, it would NEVER be regarded as a “playful” thing. (men wouldn’t be presented as pretty carousels jumping around on a bed either) I am saying that if we want rape to be taken seriously, then these types of scenes need to be jettisoned totally. As it is, Crowe won an Oscar for it. I didn’t hear anyone protesting… and Noah thinks I should have “known better”? How could I have known? Noah, BTW, you seem to be insisting I develop the sensibility that you have, without fully appreciating that is why I came here in the first place.
Took me some time, but I found it… Anna Paquin announces “I’m bored!”– starting at about 3:25, goes to about 6:15 . You be the judge. Warning: Triggers and so on. If you think this will bother you PLEASE DON’T WATCH… but at least one reviewer said the scene was right out of Disney!
Again, major mixed signals and the resultant confusion is what I am talking about.
@Colette Wedding says:
Huh? I specifically talked about a car running a red light. That is totally human behavior, nothing to do with the gravity, etc.
However, putting that aside, I would say to your question: yes. Why wouldn’t I? We’re not children. We’re adults. And the world has bad people in it. As adults, we can and should take reasonable precautions to protect ourselves from bad people and unfortunate events, to the best of our knowledge of what that entails.
That does not at all mean that people should kick us while we’re down, obviously. No, people should help and be sympathetic. Because bad things happen to everyone, and we don’t have complete control over what happens to us. And even if we did, that still doesn’t make us unworthy of help and sympathy.
All I’m saying is that it’s toxic to pretend like advice = victim blaming. Sometimes victim blaming can be masked as advice–I get that. But anti-victim-blaming discourse often seems to pretend that people (and especially women) are just helpless creatures who cannot possibly take reasonable precautions and care for themselves. Which is an extremely toxic message, IMO.
Noah, if you think what I said is like what you linked… well, I hardly know what to say. Are we speaking different languages?
Saying that *MY* experience and knowledge is limited, is not the same as calling people liars and such. You know that, right? Its saying my experience and knowledge are limited.
Pretty depressing if you think I am like that guy. Yeesh!
Saying that *MY* experience and knowledge is limited, is not the same as calling people liars and such. You know that, right? Its saying my experience and knowledge are limited.
Fair enough, and I appreciate the clarification. 🙂
Daisy:
I think I understand what you mean, while at the same time I can also see why your post might have seemed very dismissive. I apologize if this is mansplaining, but I will try to put what you are saying into my words, so that you have an opportunity to correct me if I have gotten anything wrong (and hopefully, others can understand your perspective better):
You understand, intellectually, that men can be raped by women, and that it can be a traumatic and deeply emotionally scarring experience for them.
But at the same time, you do not have a “gut understanding” that men can be raped. Your brain understands it, but it does not “click” with your actual experiences and observations, which include men trivializing or making fun of the concept.
It disturbs you that there is this dissonance, but you think your intellectual understanding is the correct one, and therefore you ask for concrete examples to help you relate to it and reconcile your intellectual understanding with your observations.
Is this about right?
(there are many political and philosophical points that took many, many years for me to understand too.)
PS: As for vegetarianism, all I ever saw was guts and gore, so family dinners were rather troublesome to me as a child, before I grew old enough to declare myself a vegetarian and no longer have to force myself to eat that stuff. I realize that I am an oddity in that regard, though.
@Daisy
I understand it being difficult to understand the concept of men being raped by women – it goes against many ingrained patriarchal assumptions* – about men being always up for it, about women being the gatekeepers of sex, of men being violent and dominant, of women being pacific and submissive, and, I would argue, there are for many crimes a constructed ‘typical victim’, of which we have the schema to at least relate to – and I think that this schema is lacking in the case of men who are the victims of rape by women.
That said I would ask, at the very least, that you don’t allow your lack of understanding to lead to a lack of sympathy – not that I think is has, but it can certainly lead that way.
Personally someone very close to me was raped by a women, and it’s something I take very seriously. I think that some of the attitudes people have towards this kind of situation (such as ‘men can’t be raped by women’) come from ideas of a kind of ‘male invincibility’, wherein men can’t really be the victim of anything unless they choose to be, and of ideas of the relative weakness of women (and believing that physical strength is an ultimate trump card). My friend who was raped was certainly stronger than the woman involved, but that doesn’t mean that he wasn’t raped. Many victims, of any gender, do not fight back, for all kinds of reasons, and this doesn’t make it not rape. I’m not really sure what else I can say to you, as you say it may just be a matter of experience for you, but if you think there is anything I do to help you understand, please tell me.
*I’m not saying that these are universal, just that they exist.
Marc, I agree w/you. How can we get men to appreciate the reality, that it wouldn’t be the hot woman they want, but someone they DON’T want (by definition)? See I think this forces them to confront their own weakness, and nobody enjoys that.
I am once again reminded of Mark Walhberg and how HE woulda handled 9/11, by gum. Nobody like that ever wants to think they could be a victim.
“@Daisy: You are about a hair’s breadth from this shit.”
FaIr take, Noah, but sometimes you have to go to the edge to get the goods. Context matters and here the context was that it was Daisy asking and she has asked this in the past in good faith and I took her request this time to be in good faith too. So why didn’t she rememebr this from those other times? Don’t know, don’t care; this sounded like a genuine request for information.
And now she gets it, because she asked for an example that really spoke to her, got one and understood it. She was asking for credible evidence in other words, and that should be the standard for any discussion.
Context matters, and there is a perceived pattern of MRAs downplaying rape of women with what about teh menz. This is a case where that taunt holds some water at least in the light of that perception, even if it turns out to be ill-founded. I don’t think insisting on recogniton of male rape victims denies the female rape in any way, but apparently there are those who do and it’s a live issue. (Not that Daisy is one of those people.) So a little clarity on the matter like Daisy was asking for is pretty reasonable.
Rocket Frog:
You understand, intellectually, that men can be raped by women, and that it can be a traumatic and deeply emotionally scarring experience for them.
But at the same time, you do not have a “gut understanding” that men can be raped. Your brain understands it, but it does not “click” with your actual experiences and observations, which include men trivializing or making fun of the concept.
It disturbs you that there is this dissonance, but you think your intellectual understanding is the correct one, and therefore you ask for concrete examples to help you relate to it and reconcile your intellectual understanding with your observations.
Thank you, and yes, good description. 🙂 You are a very empathetic person, despite what you say about yourself sometimes.
There used to be a time when spousal violence (most often the man beating the woman) was considered a personal matter that would sort itself out without external interference, so men tended to either minimize or rationalize it. I think a lot of male sexual assault is viewed along those lines. I recall a short experiment at a diner where they had a woman openly drug a man for date rape without anyone batting an eyelid. Men were recorded as being fully aware of what was happening, even joking about it as the victim appeared to go sick. In the end it was a woman who stood up for him. Don’t feel bad Daisy, there is a lot of room for education of men.
It is amazing how things that you would expect to click simply do not. A while back I was talking to women at my job (about 2-3) and they were talking about a local story where some young boys supposedly raped a young girl (young = everyone was under aged). Apparently the girl had been messing around with one of the guys earlier in the night and then wen’t down hill from there. I was shocked into silence as I heard those women talk about how if she had been messing around like that earlier in the night of course she should have expected to get raped. And going on about how she should have known better.
I literally couldn’t say anything. To hear women say that a girl/woman deserved to be raped? That shit blew my mind.
@Solo: Really? Do you have the source still? I want to see this study.
BH:
Pretty sure this is what Solo is referring to
It wasn’t a scientific study, just a series of staged situations for the “What would do?” series on ABC News.
Daisy:
Yes, I was and am harsh and perhaps I should go easier on you because of age as you say since it often is the case that the longer one has believed something the more stuck one is in that belief. On the other hand that also means that stronger measures are needed to change that belief.
With that in mind I’d like to say that my hope is to change your mind on this – to see you able to empathise enough with male victims of female rapists to actually being able to imagine what happened to them. Whether my intent matters is of course up to you.
Yes, several people, including many men, have problems recognizing rape against men with a female perpetrator. You haven’t struck me as a person who defers to men so why you consider the men who denies the possibility of female rape of men as an authority on this issue confounds me. Plenty of women were not exactly in favour of feminism and many of the feminism goals of more equality in the sixties and seventies. You are perhaps old enough to remember when spousal rape was starting to become an issue and I am sure you met women who said that it was a matter of marital duty to have sex with one’s husband regardless of whether one wanted to or not. I am equally sure that you didn’t consider them as an authority in that issue. My late grandmother held this view of spousal rape. A wife was in no position to deny her husbands rights. She also thought that women who were victims of domestic violence must’ve done something to provoke their husband. Should I have considered her an authority on this based on her gender? Her attitude on these issues certainly could work as enablement whenever she were in contact with people in those situations. I never did manage to change her mind on these issues.
What is your view of the Mary Koss study where many women said yes to questions which described situations that legally constitutes rape without using the word rape while many of the same women said no to the question whether they’ve been raped? Do you find it equally hard to believe that those women actually were raped? Or that the men who they had the experience with seriously overstepped some ethical boundaries and in fact were rapists?
And here I think you may have touched upon one very possible reason for the large discrepancy between the lifetime numbers and the last 12 months numbers from the NISVS 2010 Report from CDC.
Based on previous comments by you around the blogosphere I am pretty convinced that you don’t really believe having a Ph.D precludes stupidity so when you chose to use the existence of a Ph.D to rule out stupidity here I was a bit baffled. It’s not that I think it’s stupidity, it’s just that I found that particular argument a bit strange coming from you.
You’re right that the disbelief and denial probably is not rooted in stupidity, but is in fact based in the set of gender based beliefs and structure society have in place and which people assimilate and internalize when growing up – in short what many feminsts would call the patriarchy. Although the word patriarchy masks women like my grandmother who very much enforced many such beliefs and structures. I understand that you are a woman who have been and are active in changing many gender based beliefs and structures in society (or patriarchy if you like), yet when it comes to this issue you find you are not able to understand and you defer to male authorities whom you yet on some level seem to believe is mistaken.
What exactly is it that makes the act of a woman raping a man so difficult for you to even imagine? I’ll list up a number of reasons I’ve heard why men can’t be raped by women as well as well as a response to those.
a) You just believe that any account you ever heard of a man being raped by a woman is a lie?
I have to ask this because when you state that you can’t imagine how something that someone have told you in detail happened you are pretty close to accusing them of lying.
b) The mechanics? How can a man get an erection when he doesn’t want sex?
In lieu of not having a penis yourselves you must just take my and many other men (as well as many medical sources) words that erections are not a voluntary response and that they certainly can occur during sleep, when drunk or drugged and even under duress. Ask any man if he has ever had an erection when he didn’t want one (and even when he wasn’t thinking about sex). Also consider the fact that this is not unique for male victims of rape. It is also a known fact that some female rape victims experienced arousal such as vaginal lubrication during their rape. This of course should not be taken as proof that it wasn’t rape.
c) The man is almost always physically stronger and should therefore almost always be able to stop the woman.
This is pure victim blaming. It’s not unheard of that victims have an anxiety attack or freeze when being victimized. It also doesn’t take threats, weapons into account. Neither does it consider the victim being incapacitated by alcohol, drugs or sleep. I am pretty confident you don’t believe that a prequisite for calling a rape of a woman a rape is that she physically fought against the rapist. If a 5’2″ and 120lbs man has unconsentual sex with a woman who is 6’0″ and 200lbs
d) Women are not able to commit such an act, either because they’re too ethical (women my age and class didn’t act that way), or because women don’t have a high enough sexual drive to actually initiate sex with men (without making sure they consent).
This is just gender essentialism at it’s worst. I am sure you’ve encountered or at least heard of women who are able to commit acts of cruelty against other people. I am pretty sure plenty of women can attest to the fact that they indeed have a pretty strong sexual drive.
e) You are just unable to muster enough empathy to try to look at the situation for instance James Landrith told about (you can read it in the link Ginkgo posted in the comment above) from his point of view and empathise with the emotions he described him having during that rape and the aftermath.
If you are unable to do so you are unable to do so, but then I really can’t see why you are on a blog called “No, Seriously, What About Teh Menz”?
f) You believe it can happen, but you really don’t think it have any potential for any actual harm for the man. Hey, most of them did say that they got lucky.
Read James Landrith account for desciption of some serious long term damage. I ended up spending a long time being really mistrustful of women while paradoxically enough having a period of promiscuity where I also found myself unable to orgasm with any woman. It wasn’t until I managed to reconcile the cognitive dissonance of me feeling violated and me being taught and told that I should feel lucky that I lost my virginity by recognizing the act of her having sex with me while I slept without my consent as the rape it was that these issues were resolved. This is also the argument used by people defending people like Mary Kay Letourneau when they have sex with underage children.
Daisy, did you find your reason why you find it impossible to imagine among the ones above, if so, which one(s)? If not, can you elaborate on exactly why you find it impossible to imagine? I am having real trouble understanding how one can reads detailed recounts of events by another persons and then be totally unable to put oneself in their shoes and imagine events happening matching their description of events?
I bristled about this part of your comment on that “Almost Famous” scene:
Tamen:
c) The man is almost always physically stronger and should therefore almost always be able to stop the woman.
This is pure victim blaming. It’s not unheard of that victims have an anxiety attack or freeze when being victimized. It also doesn’t take threats, weapons into account. Neither does it consider the victim being incapacitated by alcohol, drugs or sleep. I am pretty confident you don’t believe that a prequisite for calling a rape of a woman a rape is that she physically fought against the rapist. If a 5’2″ and 120lbs man has unconsentual sex with a woman who is 6’0″ and 200lbs
What bothers me when I see people play this excuse is the double standard. Its sexist to simply presume a woman is not strong enough when looking to hire someone to load/unload boats at the dock but the thought of a woman overpowering a man is suddenly inconceivable.
Daisy:
Yes, mixed signals (or the trope that rape is ok when it’s female on male) is a problem. There also exists mixed signals about rape when it’s male on female, like slut-shaming and so on. That horrible article Noah linked to is a result of those mixed signals, but it’s also a pretty clear testament to the moral corruption of the author. Mixed signals does not in any ways excuse views as those.
I spent some time writing my previous comment so I missed Noah’s warning to Daisy and her clarification and I’ll add that I am glad for that clarification. However, Daisy, you may want to consider the wording at the start of your first comment as many people will interpret the statement that you can’t imagine what they told as you expressing a disbelief in what they told you.
Once a long time ago you somewhere told about when you were denied to play drums (I seem to recall that you were denied with the explanation that women can’t/don’t play drums). It was clear that this was an episode which hurt you. Try to imagine your reaction if any commenters replied:
“I want to see some dramatizations because I can’t imagine it in my mind… Its like trying to imagine purple cows or something.”
In a reply to Ginkgo’s link about a man’s account of his rape by a woman you wrote:
I am having real problems seeing what role his motivations had in his rape at all? Exactly what motivation of the victim are you talking about? Are you talking about how he reacted and why he didn’t just simply fight her off and so on? Why not talk about and consider the motivations of the female rapist?
The matter of how many men say that they don’t consider themselves raped, but rather that they were lucky when women had unconsentual sex with them is a red herring. It is wrong of women to have unconsentual sex with men regardless of whether the chances of him being fine with it is 1% or 99%.
It’s true that if media and men and women were less likely to portray male victims of female rapists as lucky and unharmed then it perhaps would be easier for women to realise that, no, they shouldn’t take their partners consent for granted or even worse, ignore their non-consent. I am however of the opinion that I don’t think it’s too much to expect that women should be able to realise that non-consentual sex with men is simply not ok and that it in fact is rape.
Hugo Schwyzer tells about the female students of his who concerned ask him with voices charged with fear and horror and incredulity, “Is it possible I raped my boyfriend?” I am glad they think of that possibility, but I still think they failed big-time for not considering that before they commited whatever act they now worry about. And I am angry that Hugo Schwyzer will answer “No” to them even if they physically did grab and put a man’s penis into their vagina against his expressed wish.
I mentioned the NISVS 2010 Report from CDC rather frequently on this blog, but I wonder if not another reason for the discrepancy between lifetime numbers and last 12 months numbers for male victims being made to penetrate someone else is caused by men (in particular younger men perhaps) realizing exactly that what happened to them is not right and not justifiable by the fact that they are men.
Tamen: Once a long time ago you somewhere told about when you were denied to play drums (I seem to recall that you were denied with the explanation that women can’t/don’t play drums). It was clear that this was an episode which hurt you. Try to imagine your reaction if any commenters replied:
“I want to see some dramatizations because I can’t imagine it in my mind… Its like trying to imagine purple cows or something.”
Um, but they did respond that way. I guess you forgot?
I wrote a whole post about it called “Boys Swim” that I do not have the time to look up now.
Why exactly did you use the word shameful here? Do you generally consider that victims of rape and sexual violence should be shameful about what happened?
Well, I always have been, so I guess I was projecting.
I have to ask this because when you state that you can’t imagine how something that someone have told you in detail happened you are pretty close to accusing them of lying.
If you aren’t reading my comments, I see no reason to respond further. I stated my position earlier on this thread. Several times. Please read it.
She reveals her plan to have the crew of the Enterprise cryogenically frozen, providing an uncontaminated genetic stock her people can use to rebuild their population. She also claims Kirk as her consort, and demands that he join her on the planet below.
Kirk of course, has no say in the matter…
Uh huh, and the sets were so cheap, they didn’t even beam down to the planet! She says “You’re going” and Shatner bugs his eyes out in his famous fashion… cut to a commercial. That’s the extent of the abuse. Kirk falls in love with her later. (Really, one thing yall DO NOT KNOW as well as I do, is the original Star Trek, I am utterly confident of that.)
Tamen, I am not interested in playing Gotcha. Take it to Ginmar. Thanks.
Danny, of course, most of us were brought up (in my time) to believe that rape was our own fault. (I will always believe that about myself, as I have said, due to drinking.) That was standard then, and sometimes you still hear it.
And because I just feel like dropping a link.
http://dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com/2009/01/why-yes-women-can-rape-men.html
Daisy:
In fact I did recall that and I did recall you being very mad at that response. I was trying to nudge you into understanding why your first post here were read that way it was by me (and Noah I presume from his subsequent warning which was retracted upon your clarification).
As I said in a comment following the one where I wrote the above:
I’ll bend to your Star Trek expertise as I haven’t seen those episodes, just read the plot summaries I quoted on Wikipedia and other sources and those did imply sexual coercion.
I am not playing Gotchas, I am questioning assumptions. I don’t want anything to do with Ginmar whatsoever.
I googled ‘Ginmar’ to find on earth you two were talking about. Goodness that rabbit hole went deep!
I get the feeling I might be a bit late to the party. Anyhow recently there was a male victim of forcible rape coming forward on reddit’s r/twoxchromosomes (a woman oriented board).
********************TRIGGER WARNING******************************
That night when we went to bed she tried to initiate sex I rebutted her claiming that I was tired – the truth of the matter was that I was still terrified. I was a virgin and although I knew how sex worked this probably added to my dread. A night or two later she tried again, straddling me while I was lying on my back and telling me that I would enjoy it.
I asked her to please stop but she didn’t – she pushed my pants down and tried to push me inside her. I was incredibly scared and then something horrifying happened – my penis responded to what she was doing and I started to get hard. I was (and still am) incredibly ashamed at my body betraying me but it seemed like it just gave her a reason to keep going. I started to cry and pleaded and begged with her to stop but she put her hands over my wrists and held me down – I was fairly scrawny and she was a lot larger than she had told me so no matter how I struggled I couldn’t get free.
She made comments to the effect that if I didn’t want it, why was I hard? and partially mocked me for it. She may have said more but at some point I just closed my eyes tight and turned away and just tried to focus on anything but what was going on until it was over. Afterwards, she let me go and tried to kiss me, I pulled away as much as I could and then she laid down next to me to go to sleep.
I don’t remember if I got any sleep that night but I remember going for a shower in the early morning and crying again and trying to clean myself and feeling terrified she might come into the bathroom and do something to me again. I felt like I couldn’t go back home, I couldn’t tell anyone and even if I did that no one would believe me. I still feel a bit like that these days, many years after it all happened.
For a few weeks I slept next to my rapist, every night worried that she might decide to force me again. I think on some level she knew, or at least felt me pulling away from her and told me one night that she thought her cancer had come back (had told me previously it had gone into remission) and used this and other things like it to try and get me to stay, but every day I tried to get out of there.
********************TRIGGER WARNING******************************
What I also wanted to add (not too sure if anyone commented on that) many rape victims, male and female do not label their experience as rape. This is one reason why there is such a huge discrepancy in rape rates with crime surveys (have you been a victim of rape?) and surveys that use behavior based questions (has someone had done this/that to you?).
This seems to be even more so true for men. To steal from a genderratic post:
Men are becoming aware of this issue and to a lesser degree buy into the narrative that men should welcome all sex. This notion I suspect also explains some (I don’t have any idea of how much) of the difference in lifetime numbers as elder men are more likely to recall past events as being consensual when they in fact were not. In order to recall them as non-consensual one must recognize that one have the option to consent or not. / Researchers into the field of traumatic memory recovery note that the longer the period of time a person is asked recall a traumatic event, the less likely they are to remember it. How this works is that surveys that ask about a traumatic event in the last six months get less false negatives than those that ask about a traumatic event in the last twelve months which, itself, gets considerably fewer false negatives than lifetime prevalence. For men this effect is even more pronounced. “16% of men with documented cases of sexual abuse considered their early childhood experiences sexual abuse, compared with 64% of women with documented cases of sexual abuse. These gender differences may reflect inadequate measurement techniques or an unwillingness on the part of men to disclose this information (Widom and Morris 1997).” […] Comparing the lifetime rate of sexual abuse for men and women is misleading in determining their relative risk of sexual violence, simply because men disclose childhood sexual abuse four times less often than women. There may be many reasons for this. It’s unlikely that it’s due to sexual abuse being less impactful on men because studies have shown that sexual abuse does have a profound impact on men, and this includes female-on-male sexual abuse. For instance, the link between sexual abuse and suicide attempts is stronger in boys (Rhodes et al. 2001) and sexually abused boys are twice as likely to commit suicide (Molnar et al. 2001) than sexually abused girls. In addition to that, there is a risk factor for sexually abused men to sexually abuse others is if their abuser was female (Salter et al. 2003). One possible reason for men not disclosing, or even “forgetting”, is quite simple: our social narrative does not allow for, nor does it depict, the sexual abuse of males. To a degree it allows for the sexual abuse of boys by men, but not boys by women or adult men by anyone. In a study on the effects of retention interval and gender on the perception of violence, Ahola et al. (2009) found that eyewitnesses rated female perpetrators less violent than male when reporting after an interval of one to three weeks as opposed to ten minutes. Ahola et al. (2009) proposed that over time eyewitnesses reinterpreted the behavior of perpetrators in order to conform to gender stereotypes regarding violence. Widom and Morris (1997) propose that a similar process is occurring with male victims of sexual abuse (particularly by females) as, over time, they reinterpret their victimization to conform with the dominant social narrative regarding sexual abuse: that it happens to women and is perpetrated by men. They will do this by reframing their abuse as consensual or as a rite of passage or less violent than it was or by “forgetting” it completely. The more time passes, the more our memories conform to the dominant social narrative. “Gender differences in reporting and in perceptions of early childhood experiences may reflect early socialization experiences in which men learn to view these behaviors as non-predatory and non-abusive. Many of the sexual experiences considered to be sexual abuse (showing/touching sex organs, kissing in a sexual way) may be seen as developmental rites of passage, part of a learning process (Widom and Morris 1997.)” Note that this “forgetting” does not mean that there is no psychological effect; only that the source of that effect is buried, becoming a silent trigger for self-destructive behavior.
I googled ‘Ginmar’ to find on earth you two were talking about. Goodness that rabbit hole went deep!
Sorry man! I shoulda told you to sit down first! :p
She made comments to the effect that if I didn’t want it, why was I hard?
I have heard this my whole life, in porn, from books, from women, etc and now I am thinking I have heard a number of women confess such things, and I just didn’t “hear it” that way. I doubt their husbands thought of it that way (as I said about the 15-year-old above).
In fact, I am fairly sure that “Everything you ever wanted to know about sex but were afraid to ask” actually stated that is how you know a man is ready. The book is now out of print for its awfulness, but keep in mind, some of us were raised on it. (it was even turned into a Woody Allen movie)
So now I am deep in thought.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_You_Always_Wanted_to_Know_About_Sex_(But_Were_Afraid_to_Ask)
Obviously its raving homophobia is why its out of print, but I also recall him saying that vaginal itching was due to women needing intercourse (!!!) (apparently, the good doctor never heard of yeast infections) and saying you know a man is ready if he is hard… if he isn’t, then he isn’t. (I remember being surprised when I learned some men were ready but not hard yet.)
Bad education! Keep in mind this awful book sold 150 million copies. (screams)
And all prostitutes are really lesbians, did you know? For some reason, he never convinced me, probably because I asked my mother about that one (afraid to address the erection issues with her, I was only about 13) and she laughed out loud. Like, for a few minutes.
I have seen that movie when I was smaller….wasn’t that just meant as comedy though? I do believe many feel ashamed and argue that “If I got hard, I must have wanted it.”
I blogged about some studies debunking this recently:
The belief that it is impossible for males to respond sexually when subjected to sexual molestation by women is contradicted. Previous research indicating that male sex response can occur in a variety of emotional states, including anger and terror, are corroborated. Eleven cases of male sexual molestation by females are classified and described. A post-trauma reaction occurs in which sexual function and psychological state are affected. The men were all personally interviewed. Recognition of this phenomenon should lead to increased identification of male victims as well as to better medical, psychological, and legal services for them. – Sexual molestation of men by women. –
Sarrel PM, Masters WH. – 1982
Slight physical stimulation of the genitals, a general in-crease in stress and body tension and generalised emotional situations can create erections even though nospecific sexual stimulation is present. There is a long list of stimuli that can bring about erections in pre-adoles-cent boys including punishment, fear of punishment,boxing and wrestling, being scared, anger, harsh words,being yelled at and fear of big boys. Because of the extensive stimuli that could cause erections in young males Kinsey et al.’s interpretation was that pre adolescent boys erect indiscriminately to a whole array of emotional response (anger, fright, pain, etc.) but that by their late teens they have normally become conditioned by experience to respond only to direct physical genital stimulation or to psychic stimulation of sexual content.Thus boys subjected to enforced or non-consensual sexual stimuli either because of force or fear will become erect especially if they are frightened by the scenario. Sarrel and Masters collected a case series where adult males molested by women who used forced assaults, physical restraint or believable threats of physical violence, responded sexually with an erection and were forced to undertake coital activity. More recently Struckman-Johnson and Struckman-Johnson gave a questionnaire to 204 college men who were predominantly heterosexual asking about pressured or forced sexual touch or intercourse since age 16. Some 34% had experienced coercive sexual contact, 24% from women and 4% from men. This was achieved in 88% of the reported incidents either by persuasion, bribery, intoxication, threat of love withdrawal or by force (12%). Interviews with 10 of the respondents revealed that the fear of telling others about the event was a problem. A laboratory study showed that anxiety-inducing threats of an electric shock actually enhanced erectile responses to erotic stimuli. It is clear that both young and adult males can have maintained erections not only to non-consensual sexual stimulation but even to such stimulation when they are exposed to fearsome scenarios – Sexual arousal and orgasm in subjects who experience forced or non-consensual sexual stimulation – a review – Roy J. Levin, Willy van Berlo – 2003 – http://www.scribd.com/doc/23150432/Sexual-Arousal-and-Orgasm-in-Subjects-Who-Experience-Forced-Stimulation
(I just realized that “Everything you always wanted to know…” was a real sex-education book and not just a movie by Woody Allen / Satire…..Oh my)
OK, I’ve read the whole comment thread on feministe now and it’s a mess. Next time someone explains to me that feminism is the one true movement for gender equality I will point them to this thread. Apparently, even the question if men getting raped in prison is a bad thing or a neutral thing is somehow controversial. And yeah this is not happening on some fringe radfem blog.
Thomas, I went over to see what you meant, and I saw the name: pheenobarbidoll. That’s all I need to know, thanks.
I have started exiting threads that she enters, since it means the whole thing will be going to shit in short order.
The word for today is bully.
Yeah, there’s a reason they say to never read the bottom half of the internet.
Sadly, I Blame The Patriarchy is hardly the depths of the internet. From what I can tell it’s about the most mainstream radical feminist blog there is. Now if you want depths of the internet I can think of numerous sites that are worse, including several other radical feminist communities and blogs, but I’d really prefer not name them.
For all their professed care for female victims of rape it’s pretty clear that for some of the commenters at Feministe the narrative of the men oppressing women using rape is even more important to them – important enough to throw two thirds of the women who experience sexual abuse, sexual violence and rape while incarcerated under the bus just because their abuser did not have a penis. The fact that female prison personell (guards and so on) is the perpetrators of a not insignificant part (appr. 40% – calculated from the numbers from BJS I quoted in my first comment on this thread) of the sexual abuse, sexual violence and rape against male inmates is also completely ignored or at best minimized. I guess they are so entrenched in their world-view that their brains just go flashing “DOES NOT COMPUTE” whenever they they encounter statistics like that.
How does pheenobarbidoll not get a one way ticket straight to bansville?
This is why I don’t comment on that fucking site. Because people like that are tolerated there, and people actually talk with them like they have valid opinions.
FUCK. I want to gouge my eyes out after reading that thread. I’m going to settle with taking an acid blocker, resist the urge to vomit, and then promise myself I will never read any extremist MRA or feminist site again. GODDAMNIT.
I’m thoroughly convinced that many of the posters in many of these extremist blogs are sociopathic to at least some degree. The displayed behaviour is very much in keeping as such.
@Tamen,
Wow. Though I’m interested in the issue, I never knew that prisoners were more likely to be raped by guards than other inmates. I suppose it makes sense in retrospect – designate a group as acceptable targets for sexual abuse in the culture, and the type of person who’d try and take advantage can come from anywhere. Prison guards enjoy a much wider power gulf with their victims than any inmate, no matter how “Bubba”, they have more means to act upon it.
That makes it even easier to challenge it legally, though we still have to challenge the idea that if inmates are raping other inmates then the guards and the justice system cannot be held responsible as well as the inmates. (If you’re acting as someone’s warden, you have a positive responsibility to maintain a certain minimum standard of living conditions. No one would argue that letting a prisoner starve is not a crime because not giving food is merely a crime of inaction.)
@Daisy,
Juvenile comedy filmmakers and a certain type of male sex joke you don’t like cause no more “mixed messages” and confusion over whether male rape is wrong than the common female fantasy of being “taken” send mixed messages over whether female rape is wrong. No one who deserves convincing is genuinely confused that any sexual affront when done by a man to a woman is also wrong when done in reverse. Now, I understand that you’re of a different generation and come from a genuinely different culture from most of us, when rape of either gender was not taken as seriously, so your own claims of confusion have more credibility. But if someone from my generation and milieu came in here making the same claims of mixed messages I’d call bullshit immediately and tell them where they can stick their so-called confusion. I hope you understand why several people reacted the way they did. Imagine your own reaction to a similar argument made with the female rape fantasy analogy above.
Pocketjacks, I notice not a single person has commented on “Almost Famous”–which I linked above. It was presented by Tamen as a rape-example, and I expressed confusion. So, I linked the ACTUAL SCENE and asked: “Really?”
The question still stands. Do you consider that scene to be rape? I asked honestly. I did not bring up the example, but as my above commented stated, I have heard it described that way before.
Now, I understand that you’re of a different generation and come from a genuinely different culture from most of us, when rape of either gender was not taken as seriously, so your own claims of confusion have more credibility.
Thank you. And don’t forget what I said about David Reuben, above… Feckless did not even know it had been a real book. This is the bullshit we were raised on, right alongside John Wayne.
And this is why it is important for older people to participate in these discussions. I feel like the online perspectives are totally youth-focused by default, since it is mostly young people who are online. Our perspectives are largely ignored. And then everyone wonders why it is so hard to change hearts and minds. (Well, for one thing, you need to actually talk to us first.)
As I said, I am grateful that the vegetarians, skeptics and others, did not give up on me, and were basically respectful and explanatory when I expressed my copious doubts and criticisms. Feminist/MRA Blogdonia is not like that, as Danny wrote on his blog, it is more like a stand-off or war. I’d like to change that, but reading viciousness from bullies (on both sides) makes me sad and leaves me wondering if there is any hope.
I have resolved to hang around only the people dedicated to genuine dialogue on these issues.
Correction! I meant, as Danny wrote at the Good Men’s Project:
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/treating-the-hate/
As for the Almost Famous scene posted above (not that I’ve finally watched it) I would say that given he was forced into the bedroom and had his clothes taken off against his will I wouldn’t think it out of line to call that rape. And if if you wouldn’t call it rape it would still be problematic (sexual coercion maybe?)
I think what may call the idea of it being rape into question is that although it started off with being pulled into the bedroom and having his clothes taken off while he was saying no as they started with the sex he, for what it seem, was consenting.
Let’s do a gender flip Daisy. If that had been three men forcing a woman into a bed room and taking her clothes off would you be wondering if its rape?
Daisy Deadhead: As for the scene in Almost Famous it’s hard to say definitively whether it is rape in a legal sense or not as the sex act itself is not shown (it’s only implied) and we do not see whether the kid continues to protest. In some ways before the scene fade out it can seem like he’s inclined to consent. Assuming sex happened then at the very least it’s statutory rape (in most jurisdiction as far as I know) and if he continues to protest during the sex then it’s rape.
The women made their intent quite clear (“deflower him!”), he protested yet they didn’t back off. They began to strip him of his clothes while he was protesting. Highly problematic behaviour which is a first step to rape (get their clothes off even if they protest).
Now, consider movie-scene with a bunch of frat guys dragging a protesting 15 year old girl into the bedrom while chanting “pop her cherry!”), she protests, but they still continues to strip her clothes off and she eventually sort of resigns and then the scene fades-out. Fade-in: she wakes up naked in bed with two naked guys. Is the scene still confusing?
Regardless of whether the 15 year old kid ended up being happy about what happened (or at least outwardly bragging about it as you said it seemed to you S.O. that Cameron Crowe did with this autobiographical scene) it does not change the fact that the women did something unethical and wrong. Another kid might very well not be happy, but perhaps even deeply traumatized by this happening (for example if he at the time was closeted gay or he had experienced sexual abuse as a child (from a babysitter or a family member)). Men can’t go round defending rape by pointing to the fact that some women actually orgasm during rape. Women can’t go round defending rape by pointing out that many 15 year old boys would brag of the experience afterwards. Bragging about something does not preclude harm caused by that thing.
You get parts of it when you agreed with Marc2020 about how some men are dismissing other men raped by women because they imagine it happening with a hot woman rather than with a woman they really don’t want to have sex with (as per definition). The missing part is that men are taught or rather indoctrinated with the notion that we should get all the sex we can. When something happens to a man which he is not ok with one way of dealing with it is by going with the stream and what he is taught and just say, hey, I got lucky, I got laid and she threw herself at me. And then everything is OK, at least on the surface. Underneath, well, perhaps not so much. It’s not like it’s a completely unknown coping mechanism to redefine something which was not under their control as something which was their choice. For instance, how many people who got fired tells other people that they quit the job? How many people end up believing that narrative themselves. How many people who flunk a subject will tell and believe that they did so just because they consciously didn’t bother to study because the subject was boring or some other reason. Whatever story they tell they are still fired or lacking course credits.
Whatever story a man who was made to have sex he at the time didn’t consent to tells he were still raped. Whatever story the man tells afterwards, the woman who didn’t get his consent or disregarded his non-consent is in fact as per definition a rapist.
@Daisy: “Pocketjacks, I notice not a single person has commented on “Almost Famous”–which I linked above. It was presented by Tamen as a rape-example, and I expressed confusion. So, I linked the ACTUAL SCENE and asked: “Really?””
We don’t actually see the act it self, (or even if it truly happened), but lets do a break down of that scene. First he was too young too consent; so yes if he had sex it was rape. Second, he said “no” yet was dragged away. That’s violent crime number 1.Then they forcibly removed his clothes. I think that goes under theft, and probably counts as violent crime number 2.
If we take wisconsin as our state https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/939/I/22 we can see here that he was “without consent” means “that consent is given for one of the following reasons: 939.22(48)(a) (a) Because the actor put the victim in fear by the use … use of physical violence on the victim”, which would then qualify under sexual assault in wisconsin.
So yes, any sex that took place was a violent rape. How is that even a question?!? I mean if you see a person dragged off, have there clothes forcibly removed, and later discover they had sex do you assume a) the person changed their mind of their own free will. or b) any consent was due to a fear of more physical violence?
Danny, no, not at all, and that is why I asked. But I think many feminists might well disagree w/me.
Tamen: Now, consider movie-scene with a bunch of frat guys dragging a protesting 15 year old girl into the bedrom while chanting “pop her cherry!”), she protests, but they still continues to strip her clothes off and she eventually sort of resigns and then the scene fades-out. Fade-in: she wakes up naked in bed with two naked guys. Is the scene still confusing?
But see, we are now talking about gender differences, as I said: men do not frolic on beds like carousels. BUT IF THEY DID, that might entrance and enchant me too, as he was. Two men kissing right in front of me, as they did write before the fade-out? (((fans self))) Simply put: I would love that.
Gender differences in behavior mean that those things are highly unlikely. Men have their own body language and women have been taught to fear that language… “pop her cherry” would make a woman freeze up, whereas a man hearing “deflower him” may be very surprised and excited (as Ozy has pointed out in her “myth of men not being hot”) since men so rarely hear such open sexual exuberance from women.
The gender differences in behavior, therefore encode the scene differently. That’s the kind of thing I am talking about.
Lamech: So yes, any sex that took place was a violent rape. How is that even a question?!?
Violent???? Wow, really? You took THAT away from that scene? (shakes head in amazement) Is everyone else in agreement with Lamech?
It’s a question since no, I didn’t consider it that way and I would not consider it that way if it happened to me personally, IF it happened in the way it did in the movie, men dancing on a bed and then kissing each other. This would not threaten me in the least and as I said, I would be very curious to hang around and see what happened next. 🙂 But when does THAT ever happen?
This is my point. Encoded differently.
Or even RIGHT before the fade-out. (rolls eyes) Excuse the error.
Danny: Let’s do a gender flip Daisy. If that had been three men forcing a woman into a bed room and taking her clothes off would you be wondering if its rape?
Danny, let me clarify… when you say it like that, without the (“carousel”) atmosphere of the movie, of course. But I am talking about that specific scene and situation.
@Daisy: “Violent???? Wow, really? You took THAT away from that scene? (shakes head in amazement) Is everyone else in agreement with Lamech?”
When you drag someone off or forcibly take their clothes off thats violent. How can you possibly think that’s okay?
Did you read what I wrote? Am I talking to myself?
How can you possibly think that’s okay?
Are they gallivanting around on a bed and being all cute and amusing? Are they kissing each other? As I said, *I* would be enchanted. Wouldn’t you?
Wait… you didn’t even watch it, did you?
@Daisy – “This is my point. Encoded differently.”
so basically rape is not rape as long as everyone doing the raping is nice about it and using coercion instead of outright physical force? Never mind about the fact he said no. No apparently doesn’t mean no if you dance on a bed or kiss someone else before raping someone. Or do you have to do both? is there a specific order? I would love to hear some more rules about how rape can be not rape. I’m listening.
Daisy:
Scene: A woman’s dorm room
Jane: You know who John is, right?
Daisy: Yeah, that hot guy from the ballet class.
Jane: I was at a party with him…
Daisy: with him? As in a date?
Jane: ..mm.. last night at his place.
Daisy: Wow, he’s hot.
Jane: Yeah. But I had to much to drink and felt a bit sick. I told him and he guided me to a dorm room. There he said he liked me and he wanted us to have sex. I totally like him and so, but I was afraid to be sick and said “no, not now”. He began piruetting and prancing around me while he picked my clothes of. I continued to say “no, not now”. He ended up having sex with me even though I said no then. When we had sex I just didn’t say anything and waited until he was done. He didn’t threaten or strong-armed me, but I did say no before and I am wondering whether I should report this as rape.
Daisy: No, it can’t be rape. He’s totally hot and I would’ve fucked him given half the chance. You can’t report him.
Scene: Courtroom.
The Judge: John Doe is sentenced to 6 months jail for having sex with the victim against her expressed will.
John: But your honor!! I was frolicking and carouselling! Dasiy totally loved that when we did it later, how could Jane not then?
The Judge:
As unlikely as the two fictional scene’s are I just wanted to illustrate that applying what one oneself would do in another person’s place is not the best way to judge a certain situation when one knows some key facts about the situation which defines the situation. In this case (as well as in the Almost Famous scene) the following facts occured:
Person A said “No”. Person(s) B did not stop.
That’s one of the objective definitions of rape.
Did the kid say no, Did the women stop when he did? That’s the objective measurement.
My tolerance for sophistery when it comes to a man’s (or any other person’s for that matter) right to have their “no” unconditionally respected is very low. If your partner says no – you stop. (Unless you’ve mutually agreed not to beforehand and then preferrably with a safe word).
Your arguments that this scene is confusing, that it can’t be rape, that it can’t be gender reversed and even if it were you’d totally dig it, all serve to minimize his right to have his “no” respected. It functions as a defence of the women’s total disregard for his “no” and by extension it served as a defence of women disregarding men’s “no” in general.
Forgot that < and > will be eaten if not escaped. Replace the following in my poorly written (I certainly won’t be quitting my day job) scenes above:
Daisy: <interjects> with him? As in a date?
Jane: <nods> ..mm.. last night at his place.
<Some time has passed>
Scene: Courtroom.
The Judge: <Slowly shakes head>
Maybe you weaken your argument by picking a grey area example. It is possible that the boy in the scene is completely happy with what happened (I haven’t seen the flim, just the cut posted above), despite the “nos”. It is the classic taken format where a woman repeatedly says no, and then ends up an eager participant I the act. Given the fact that the movie in both cases gives us a relatively clear view of the chain of events as well as the mental state of the participants, it is perfectly okay to view even something like that as being consensual, even when consent guidelines are grossly violated. The discussion distracts into whether THAT was rape or not.
@Daisy
That scene by itself is not rape, but if we were to have the boy tell authorities that he were raped three days down the line, everyone would assume that cutesy scene, not a brutal gang rape we have no problems visualizing with a female victim. I cannot find the story right now, but there was a story where a bunch of eighteen year olds molested a screaming boy and posted the video online. That and the reaction from authorities indicates that “boys want it” attitudes lingers even when there is no grey area.
Solo: I am not sure if your first paragraph was directed at me, but since it followed directly below my comment I’ll assume so. Back when Daisy mentioned that she couldn’t imagine women raping men and that she had never seen or heard dramatizations or stories of such a thing I mentioned several examples of dramatizations where men’s lack of consent were ignored, I also mentioned a three year old thread on FC which was spawned by her asking the same question back there. All but a very few examples of dramatization were taken from TVTropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsOkWhenItIsFemaleOnMale). Daisy dismissed the Star Trek examples citing her Star Trek:Original Series knowledge and she was the one who focused on the Almost Famous example.
When someone says “no” it’s not ok to continue and escalate the process on the off chance that they’ll say yes later. (I count pulling the kid along to another room and taking his clothes off as an escalation). A lot of movies are very problematic in this regard when it comes to women. A man kissing a woman against her will and after some struggling she relents and kisses him back. Explicit sex were not shown on screen back then and the kiss would be seen as an euphemism for sex by the audience in many cases. A lot of these movies were rightly criticized by feminists. It’s the same old “she said no, but her eyes said yes” defence commonly used by many rapists. That way of thinking and disregard of someone’s explicitly expressed “no” to sex is just as wrong when applied towards men.
Calling it a gray area afterwards if the person eventually (in this case they’ve removed his clothes against his stated will) relents/give in/give up/goes along/get into it is partly accepting and encouraging that sort of behaviour. Such an acceptance and encouragment I cannot and will not stand behind.
Okay, who watched it and who didn’t? ACTUALLY WATCHED IT, direct question.
This is fascinating. Several of you have harshly criticize feminists for not taking specific situations with men into account, and now, you have all adopted the so-called puritan witch-hunt tactics that you zealously criticize in feminists. Are feminist standards about rape, that you admit have disadvantaged men, the standards you are now using against women? Then why are you using them? Isn’t the idea to adopt a more holistic and fair approach?
I guess you mean for MEN accused of men, but not women, is that it?
I guess the guys at Duke WERE guilty. If not, neither is Polexia Aphrodisia. Please adhere to ONE standard for everyone. Thanks.
As it is, now I can believe several of you are not arguing in good faith, since you have one standard for Duke lacrosse players and another for groupies in a movie, whom the director/author spoke of with love and affection…amazing.
Solo: It is possible that the boy in the scene is completely happy with what happened
Umm, he talked about this in several interviews, as I said above. He loved the story of his own deflowering and that’s why he included it in the movie. Apparently, his own word for it should be ignored! And I thought one of the (most effective) criticisms is how the state can define something as rape/sexual assault, even when the woman herself does not!!!!
This doesn’t apply to men, we see. The man’s word should be ignored, even if it is HIS account.
I see that several of you, as I said, are not arguing in good faith. (sigh)
Tamen: That way of thinking and disregard of someone’s explicitly expressed “no” to sex is just as wrong when applied towards men
Feminists call this the Scarlett O’Hara argument. Rhett Butler raped her, the end. (I never quite bought that one either.)
Tamen, so even if ithe author of the scene about his own life, meant it in a good way, YOU would bring criminal charges?
Amazing. I see you are all as intractable and puritanical as Mary Daly. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Where is Henry Miller when we need him?
Solo: That scene by itself is not rape, but if we were to have the boy tell authorities that he were raped three days down the line, everyone would assume that cutesy scene, not a brutal gang rape we have no problems visualizing with a female victim.
EXACTLY! And that isn’t fair, is it?
I thought the goal was fairness, not applying the witch-hunt tactics to women, too. If that is your goal, Tamen, count me out.
The state is an evil, imposing behemoth and I am for reducing police involvement, not increasing it. So I think we are also coming from diametrically opposing ideological positions.
Jesus: so basically rape is not rape as long as everyone doing the raping is nice about it and using coercion instead of outright physical force? Never mind about the fact he said no. No apparently doesn’t mean no if you dance on a bed or kiss someone else before raping someone. Or do you have to do both? is there a specific order? I would love to hear some more rules about how rape can be not rape. I’m listening.
No, you aren’t listening at all. The person to listen to is not ME, but Cameron Crowe. I guess his word is of no importance.
Feminists said, “listen to the women”… so in this case, I listen to men, specifically Cameron Crowe, the author of this biographical scene. It’s HIS life and his story, and he liked it and meant for you to see it that way. He has repeatedly stated this. I show respect for him and do not second-guess him and say he is wrong about his own life. What incredible arrogance!
This is what Gingko, TyphonBlue and others have written about: men are charged with sexual assault even if the so-called victim herself says it was not. This is actually DENYING women’s agency and assigning meanings to her life, this is not empowering women. I daresay, they convinced me, but apparently they didn’t convince YOU. Hm. (Or are you, as I suspect, advocating a different standard for accused women than for accused men? And where have we heard THAT before?)
The almighty God-directed STATE knows better, as we see, and someone who names himself Jesus obviously knows what REALLY happened. (rolls eyes) Never mind what the author himself says!
This thread is outrageous, and not in a good way.
Well, being out of moderation was nice while it lasted.
I have watched that scene; I have actually watched that entire movie. It was very clearly rape, and I thought so when I originally watched it. (Oh, and since this is apparently an issue, if I was a police chief or a prosecutor and I heard about that I would totally press charges no matter what he says about it, because criminal prosecutions aren’t for the benefit of the victim.)
Now, whether or not he’s bothered by being raped is his call (he seems to have consented anyway sometime in the middle), but it’s still rape.
Ozy, what does “meta value” mean? Sorry, no college degree.
And any chance I can get out of moderation sometime today?
I feel like the Women’s Christian Temperance Union has invaded the thread… or actually, they have unmasked themselves and they’ve been here all along, and I had no clue.
Update: Still banned on Feministe. Maybe I’ll find out why one of these days, but I’m not holding my breath.
A discussion about statutory rape is not the same thing as a discussion about ordinary (non-consensual) rape. Statutory rape laws vary from place to place : In Canada it was 14 until a few years ago, In part of Europe it’s 14 or 15. And there are Romeo and Juliette laws that change things. Therefore what is in the video would probably not be considered statutory rape in many places. And furthermore any discussion about statutory rape means a discussion about “What should be the age of consent”, and Europeans don’t have the same attitude than Americans and people don’t have the same attitude depending on their political opinions.
I assume you all believe Rhett absolutely raped Scarlett, then? Or is this just about uppity groupies? And BTW, where did you get the ages of those girls? In the film Pennie Lane states she is 16, and the other girls’ ages are not given at all, are they? Mr Nice Guy, excellent point–I assume they are just so all-fired eager to start prosecuting women, they really don’t care HOW old they are! (and what does THAT remind me of?) Mary Daly, call your office.
Why do you all criticize the radfems about being so Draconian, if you are going to employ their standards without question? (BH, that question is not directed to you… like Ron Paul, you are being consistent)
@BlackHumor
In that particular case, are you arguing for rape by lack of enthusiastic consent, or statutory rape?
Since we are talking about Statutory rape law, do you remember The 17 years old kid who got 10 years in prison because a 15 years old girl give him a blow job ?
Yooo hooo, anybody? Bueller? Bueller?
Does this mean getting out of moderation today is not an option?
@Solo: Rape by lack of ANY consent. He’s not just not enthusiastic, he never consents at all, at least on camera. In fact, he’s still pretty clearly resisting the sex by the time the camera cuts away, so it would be rape even by a negative consent standard. The shot afterwards does imply that he consented at some part of the process (or, at least, liked it, which is not at all the same as consenting to it) but it’s pretty clear that he didn’t really have a choice.
I would guess it’s probably NOT statutory rape, either because of some kind of Romeo and Juliet law or just a low age of consent. But I really don’t know the laws in whatever state that scene was set in.
@Daisy: there is no inconsistency between believing that forcing someone to have sex and ignoring their “no” is rape, and objecting to a prosecutor lying about the evidence in order to try and railroad a bunch of innocent guys when the actual evidence is fairly conclusive that there was no sexual intercourse of any kind between any of them and their supposed victim. (Also, the Duke lacrosse case is probably not the best example in the world; the accuser in that case later went on to violently abuse her then-boyfriend in front of their kids, get sentenced to time served for it, and then stabbed and killed her next boyfriend a year or so later.)
BH: In fact, he’s still pretty clearly resisting the sex by the time the camera cuts away
He is? He is totally quiet at that point; as I said, enchanted, which is what Crowe intended to convey. Read his directorial notes.
Where do you come up with “he’s still pretty clearly resisting”? What is he doing that is clearly resisting? He is saying nothing at all, he is just sitting there. Sitting and staring at Kate Hudson is “clearly resisting”? (Can I quote you on that?) Are we watching the same clip?
I would guess it’s probably NOT statutory rape, either because of some kind of Romeo and Juliet law or just a low age of consent. But I really don’t know the laws in whatever state that scene was set in.
The actual incident happened in Oregon, but in the movie, it is Tennessee. So should the women be charged with rape in Oregon or Tennessee? Or in Hollywood, where they filmed it? I mean, since you can’t wait to bring in the prosecutors. (boggle)
This thread is blowing my pro-sex feminist mind, guys. I never dreamed I was arguing with a bunch of puritans. This is incredible! makomk, so you are one of the people who want to prosecute those evil rapist groupies? Just trying to get a head count.
Next time someone tells me the uptight feminists are “anti-sex”–I will show them this thread.
I still have a comment addressed to Jesus in moderation, which I see probably won’t make it. (sigh) But yes, as I said, it looked like fun, and if men or women did such a thing to me (or both at the same time! yeah!) I would enjoy it. In fact, very similar events/i> HAVE happened to me, and silly me assumed they happened to most people these days…. or at least those of you here on these threads, whom I just assumed are far more sexually experienced than I am (since you are all decades younger than I am and mores have radically changed since I was young) .
I am, as I said– stunned. Dumbfounded. I didn’t know I was talking to a bunch of freaking judgmental nuns!
Meanwhile, as far as *I* am concerned, bring on the groupies, light that joint, blast that rock and roll and lets PARTY. 🙂
Yall can run to cops and report us, it will be just like the old days.
@Daisy Deadhead:
But yes, as I said, it looked like fun, and if men or women did such a thing to me (or both at the same time! yeah!) I would enjoy it. In fact, very similar events/i> HAVE happened to me, and silly me assumed they happened to most people these days…. or at least those of you here on these threads, whom I just assumed are far more sexually experienced than I am (since you are all decades younger than I am and mores have radically changed since I was young) .
MRAs are far less sexual experienced than average men and I think that people were more pro-sex in the 1970s than now.
@NMMNG We are not an MRA blog
@Daisy – The situation in the “almost Famous” scene was rape. it doesn’t matter if he was under age, if his assailants were under age, or how many there were or how nice they were in coercing him into it. The fact is that he said no. he said no several times. When that did not work, he tried to come up with an excuse to leave. That didn’t work. There comes a time when you just stop fighting and wait for it to end. That does not mean he consented.
@Tamen:
If you showed me a movie clip where two people giggling and laughing, chased each other around a vineyard followed by sex without a clear yes from either, I will not immediately conclude it was rape until one of them said it was. If I were a prosecutor, I would not pursue unless one of them hinted that they were violated, but if they did, I’d nail him/her for not having ensured free consent before engaging in the act.
The crux of what I’m saying that we, as advocates for male victims need to have a clear unambiguous message. Overreaching to include debatable cases of rape gives the impression that
– Most male rape is in this non-malicious grey area
– Male victims are usually OK/pleased with whatever happens
– The women doing it are all bubbly and nice about it
– It happens so rarely that we have to reach for these flimsy examples to demonstrate how it might happen.
This is not necessary IMO, because we have so many examples where there is little doubt the act was not consensual nor appreciated. Even if you consider both rape, to your target audience there may be a big difference between what happened in “Disclosure” and what happened in “Almost Famous”.
@BH:
While enthusiastic consent is the standard we should strive for, applying your standard as law will make the war-on-drugs look like the best idea ever. We can no more ensure enthusiastic consent, than we can ensure very drunk people don’t engage in sex. The most we can say is that not getting consent risks you inadvertently raping your partner and if he/she reports you, we will consider it rape regardless of your best intentions.
@marc2020 :
We are not an MRA blog
I know but there are a few guys here who hang out in MRAs blogs and there are others who don’t seems to know how things were in the 1970s.
And about the video : it’s very clear that the guy is consenting and he’s not resisting. People don’t sign 50 pages contracts explaining all the details before having sex.
Solo:
The crux of what I’m saying that we, as advocates for male victims need to have a clear unambiguous message. Overreaching to include debatable cases of rape gives the impression that
– Most male rape is in this non-malicious grey area
– Male victims are usually OK/pleased with whatever happens
– The women doing it are all bubbly and nice about it
– It happens so rarely that we have to reach for these flimsy examples to demonstrate how it might happen.
I agree, it is not a realistic rape scene and male victims are simply not like this guy. Most male victims are are raped by men and when the are raped by a woman, she doesn’t look like a supermodel and these guys are not happy about it. A realistic rape scene is in the movie Deliverance.
@no more mr nice guy
Just to be clear, I’m not saying that most male victims are raped by men. I believe the numbers point to the opposite being true in the general population.
Jesus, by the rules you have just laid down, I have been raped a good half-dozen times, including by my ex (before we were married), who now works at an Ivy League school. Do I have a case? So, should I contact the authorities? Wow, there goes his cushy job. (see how this gray-area shit might be abused, if everyone’s ex isn’t as nice as *I* am?) You do realize this gray area (that you have decided is really black and white), will effect many more men than women, right? Have you lost your mind? You really want a few million more men arrested as rapists? (Or is this just about getting even with women, as I suspect?)
You’ve never had some fun like that with women? Really? And you’ve never said no before deciding on a yes? A woman never told you no and later decided it would probably be more fun than going out to the restaurant or whatever? Seriously, I am curious–has such a thing never happened to you? Did you consider it rape? I certainly would not and did not. I am astounded anybody would say such a thing, unless they were born-again Christians or something.
Stunned.
Solo, thanks for being the voice of reason on this thread.
It happens so rarely that we have to reach for these flimsy examples to demonstrate how it might happen.
Since this is the big example they have decided to go to the wall over (I certainly didn’t bring it up, or the silly-ass Capt Kirk example either), it certainly does leave that impression. They have significantly hurt their cause.
If male rape was a cause of MINE, I would be utterly furious.
And Ozy linked this thread over at Feministe, so now they all get to read your nonsense and laugh their asses off at you. Good work, dudes. (/sarcasm)
Jesus:
@Daisy – The situation in the “almost Famous” scene was rape. it doesn’t matter if he was under age, if his assailants were under age, or how many there were or how nice they were in coercing him into it. The fact is that he said no. he said no several times. When that did not work, he tried to come up with an excuse to leave. That didn’t work. There comes a time when you just stop fighting and wait for it to end. That does not mean he consented.
This is your reading of it… certainly not that of the scene’s AUTHOR and DIRECTOR about HIS OWN LIFE.
I think he knows more about his life than you do.
Do you hate women so much that you disregard what men actually say about their own experience, in your zealous eagerness to punish and blame?
Fascinating.
So, do I have a case against the ex? I could use the money… know any good lawyers who agree with your definition? Otherwise, I’d get laughed out of court.
I am fixing to make some money off an old frolic, yall! Thanks for the idea, Jesus. And thanks from all the women reading this, whom you have given the idea to sue for sexual assault. If your rules are ever made law, it will be open season on men like never before.
Most of you fellas here can expect to be served with a subpoena, and you can thank Jesus!
Yeah, I kinda have to agree with Daisy here…. and I should have rather different viewpoint from her, as I’m male, from a different generation, and grew up in a different culture. I have seen Almost Famous a while ago, so specifically watched this scene again in case I misremembered it – I cannot say I see violence, nor did the boy’s protests registered as the “no, i’m not ok with this, stop now” type at all. I also cannot say that the film gave any indication that the girls wouldn’t have stopped if he demonstrated he’s upset in any way. As this is a fictional scene, I have to work with what was shown on the screen, and I can’t see what was shown on the screen as rape.
Whether I or anyone else would enjoy it or not seems to be beside the point. I don’t think what YOU would feel like in a specific situation is a good criteria to use for anyone else.
“this gray-area shit might be abused, if everyone’s ex isn’t as nice as *I* am?”
…God help us all 😉
I’m with Daisy on this one. I think a key point is that rape happens when a person has sex with another against their will. When two people have sex *together* all arguments on consent go out the window; you’re as much an actor as the initiatior. Granted it’s been years since I saw the movie, (and I do not have the download credit to check it out now) but as I remember the kid was nervous, but had sex with them anyway. That seems to be the way the writer wrote it (and remembers it). To put it bluntly, he didn’t get fucked, he fucked. In the absence of threats – no rape.
Before anyone asks, I hold to the same standard with women.
@Daisy – “Jesus, by the rules you have just laid down, I have been raped a good half-dozen times, including by my ex (before we were married), who now works at an Ivy League school. Do I have a case? So, should I contact the authorities?
That is entirely up to you. Whether you choose to press charges against him does not change the reality of what happened.
“Wow, there goes his cushy job. (see how this gray-area shit might be abused, if everyone’s ex isn’t as nice as *I* am?) You do realize this gray area (that you have decided is really black and white), will effect many more men than women, right? Have you lost your mind? You really want a few million more men arrested as rapists? (Or is this just about getting even with women, as I suspect?)”
I want what is right. I want people to respect the bodily autonomy of others whether they be men or women. No is no regardless of who is saying it. I don’t see how this can be an issue that is up for debate.
“You’ve never had some fun like that with women? Really? And you’ve never said no before deciding on a yes? A woman never told you no and later decided it would probably be more fun than going out to the restaurant or whatever? Seriously, I am curious–has such a thing never happened to you? Did you consider it rape? I certainly would not and did not. I am astounded anybody would say such a thing, unless they were born-again Christians or something.”
I have had plenty of fun with women. But when I say I don’t want to have sex, I mean it. When I say no, I mean no. I don’t mean maybe, I don’t mean anything other than no. If I want to be seduced or I am not entirely into the idea, I tell my partner to “convince” me which then results in fun. But she understands that when I say no or she says no, we stop. It doesn’t happen often, but it does happen for various reasons and we respect each other enough to listen.
If after being told no by her, she later initiated sex by her choice, I would confirm that she wanted to do it. A simple, “Are you sure you’re ok with this?” doesn’t kill the mood. Trust me.
As an adult I have never been raped at least to my knowledge, but there have been times when my wishes were not respected. Those times resulted in me leaving the situation before things could escalate. I was fortunate that I was able to do so. Many men and women do not always have the option to leave.
Even though I was once a Baptist, it has absolutely nothing to do with my outlook regarding consent and bodily autonomy. If anything, I would say the views I witnessed within my particular church were much more in line with what you are stating here which I frankly find appalling.
Also, why do the looks of the perpetrator keep coming into it?
I mean, I get that supposedly a man would be more inclined to have sex with a woman he considers attractive (a bit of tautology there, innit), but if he doesn’t want to have sex, he doesn’t want to have sex, and it’s not less of a rape if the girl is conventionally attractive.
Jared, the clip from the actual movie is upthread. I don’t think Jesus has even watched it. He is going on the descriptions alone, just like those awful intractable radical feminists he criticizes, who won’t read or watch something, but they still condemn something entirely on “the facts”… I honestly can’t tell em apart without a scorecard. He seems fine with the fact that Black Humor, a feminist, agrees with him 100%.
Jesus: Even though I was once a Baptist, it has absolutely nothing to do with my outlook regarding consent and bodily autonomy.
Funniest fucking thing I ever read, especially considering your screen name. I knew you were a puritan, long before you told me you had been raised as one.
Everything we do, our race, class, religion/ethnicity of origin, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, blah blah blah has everything to do with everything we say and are. The fact that you are so politically undeveloped that you deny this basic truth, means I have been wasting my time arguing with you.
But! Nonetheless! (((rubs hands))) I can’t wait to get my hands on that Ivy League money. I am practicing mental distress for the lawsuit, I figure it probably won’t be too difficult.
Although when I told my lawyer friend what I was planning… a lawsuit on the basis of the fact I yowled “nooo!” while he snapped towels at me and said “Yes! Yes!” (which was just so cute, at the time) and then we ran around like acidheads, fade to black…. I told her that I was assured by MENS RIGHTS FELLAS that this was rape and she seems to think I am kidding.
If I send you her email, will you convince her to take my case? I want that money, dammit, I have my eye on a cherry-red Lincoln, or maybe a Bentley. Depends on which one gets the best gas mileage.
Open your wallets, guys! Jesus has declared it OPEN SEASON! 😀 Gals, I strongly urge you to comb your memories for that (affluent) man who pressured you and/or seduced you after you initially said no, even if it involved silliness in the shower and didn’t seem all that serious. Because when Jesus’ rules take effect, we will be IN THE MONEY.
(((sings “We’re in the money/the sky is sunny”))))
ADDENDUM
@Daisy – “This is your reading of it… certainly not that of the scene’s AUTHOR and DIRECTOR about HIS OWN LIFE. I think he knows more about his life than you do.”
Again, If he decides that he is ultimately OK with what happened despite his protestations, that his entirely his decision.
“Do you hate women so much that you disregard what men actually say about their own experience, in your zealous eagerness to punish and blame?”
I don’t hate women or men at all. The fact that the author is OK with the outcome, does not mean that his wishes were not disrespected and disregarded at the beginning. Under the exact same circumstances, he could have walked away from it with a much more negative view of what happened to him. He simply chose to frame it in a positive light. It doesn’t change the reality of what happened.
Also your weak attempt at sarcasm is not appreciated. Please try to engage as an adult.
Also your weak attempt at sarcasm is not appreciated. Please try to engage as an adult.
Your puritanism is not appreciated, please try to engage as an someone who lives in the current century.
Well, sarcasm or not, I have been unemployed for about 9 months now, and I need money. I am currently combing my memory and have popped open my old photos albums. I found two more, just since I last posted! I don’t know if they have any money though, but its worth a shot.
Does this mean you won’t try to convince my lawyer? Why not? Don’t you really believe what you are saying here?
I think you confuse ‘sarcasm’ with ‘dramatizing the outcome of your horrible, fascist ideology’…
@Daisy: Yes, I’ve watched it. He explicitly said “no”, and at no point did we see him saying yes. In addition we see him being forcibly dragged away into the bedroom and having his clothes forcibly removed. Although really the “no” should be enough. If someone has “no” and one has sex with them anyway its rape. This is clear-cut.
Again, If he decides that he is ultimately OK with what happened despite his protestations, that his entirely his decision.
Um, but then why did you bring it up as an example of rape in the first place, if its “his decision”? Rape, by definition, means it was NOT “his decision”? Do you see?
You just admitted it wasn’t rape.
Daisy:
Who is this “you” you talk about? Where have I admitted that feminists standards about rape have disadvantaged men? Where have I zealously criticised feminists for their staunch “no means no” stance? Oh, I see we are all a monolith? I am not in favour of any witch-hunts. I just want women and men to respect an explicitly expressed “no” and act accordingly. Education and a rise in awareness is what I’d consider a more effective way to ensure this, rather than a witch hunt and stricter legal laws. Frankly that’s why I bother with this thread, yet you seemingly still doesn’t believe that an explicitly expressed no should be respected – you are continually rising points about when it shouldn’t be respected.
No, I would never presume to bring criminal charges on someone’s behalf against their stated wish. That does however not preclude the fact that I believe the women did something wrong and unethical and that they should’ve stopped and for insance asked “Are you sure?” when he said no.
Secondly it seems like this scene is not as autobiographical as you think. According to the Rolling Stone article called How I Learned About Sex which Crowe got published in 1975 he turned down an offer of seduction from one groupie when he was 15 by saying to her “I think I wanna watch Steely Dan” and trudged back to his room. You know what, that groupie did the decent and right thing, she accepted his “no, thanks”. It turns out that Crowe lost in virginity to a divorced mother of a girl he knew not long after that. Not long after as in the same year (1973). Her got the phone number to the divorcee from a friend while they stayed at Beverly Hilton interviewing Rick Wakeman of Yes. That interview was printed in RS in June 1973, when Crowe was 15 – almost 16 years old. Now, how long it took for him to call that woman and have sex with her Crowe didn’t say in his 1975 piece, but he has confirmed that he did call her and that he did loose his virginity to her: http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19920913&slug=1512719
So it turns out that this is not a case of a man thinking that what happened to him was ok, but rather a man who imagine that it would be ok because the girls were hot. It is a what-if fantasy about something which could’ve been which is colored by the rose-tinted glasses of wistfulness. A scenario more close to the one about which you earlier stated:
TVTropes stated that they were 18-20 year old.
If they are below 18 then it probably wouldn’t be statutory rape (what is and isn’t statutory rape is pretty clear from the laws that apply at any particular location. Where I live the legal age of consent is 16 and there is no Romeo-Juliet clause).
Apparently it didn’t actually happen. It’s just a bragging story which turned out to no be true as many of them do. Anyway, this argument is the same as the argument of those people who argues that the rape prevalency Mary Koss found in her study were wrong since the subjects of the study did not themselves call the act rape – although the circumstances certainly met legal criteria for rape.
At 4:59 the three women drags him by his arms out of the bathroom into the bedroom/hotell room while he says “No no. Stop, we’re talking”.
At 5:03 and 5:04 there are two very clear “No”.
At 5:05 he tries to get up from the bed while saying no, but the women pull him back.
At 5:10 he says “Come-on. Please” while they pull of his t-shirt. (it’s pretty clear that this is a Please stop statement, not a Please continute statement)
At 5:13 the camera shifts to Penny Lane while we hear the kid say “Guys, come-on, I have to write”.
At 5:16 when the camera shifts back to the kid he is now in just his underpants.
At 5:18 he is fumbles with his pants in his hand (perhaps he’s thinking about putting them on) and one of the band-aids rips them from his hands and say “No!”.
From that point he doesn’t say anything. According to you his silence and trance this exonerates any previous behaviour by the women. I don’t think any jury would convict this as rape and I don’t think any jury should, but to re-iterate yet again: I think those women should’ve stopped when he explixitly said no and not escalate the process until he explicitly said yes. It is possible to operate by a higher standard than the law dictates.
Based on your arguments about this scene I can only assume you are OK with this and don’t find it problematic at all. And as a rhetorical tool you chose to compare those who disagree with you with that transphobic and misandric Mary Daly (as if that’s not stirring the pot). You’ve asked us to assume you’re asking these questions in good faith, Gingko is saying he believes you argue in good faith, Noah accepted your pleading of arguing in good faith. I am beginning to think we’re getting past the point where this can be blamed on poor imaginary skills, old age and class.
Solo: My argument is not primarily about whether the scene constitutes rape. It’s primarily about how the kid’s explicit “no”s were disregarded by the women who despite him voicing non-consent escalated the sexual encounter. Whether he later willingly or not had sex decides if this in the end ended up being rape.
Since there is no reliable way to upfront decide whether a person protesting will be ok with it at a later point I find it morally wrong to escalate a sexual encounter (taking clothes of someone while they protests falls squarely in the category of escalating a sexual encounter in my view) while someone protest. That’s the decency I extend to other people and which I expects towards me.
@ Daisy – Ok it is now very clear to me that you have no intention of engaging in an honest discussion. You have taken great joy in taking small snippets out of context, and twisting them into outrageous fallacies. even going so far as to tell me what my life history is regarding my religion. If you had actually bothered to read what I said earlier, you would see that in addition to my beliefs regarding saying “no”. you would have also seen what I wrote about garnering consent after that.
“Funniest fucking thing I ever read, especially considering your screen name. I knew you were a puritan, long before you told me you had been raised as one.”
BWAHAHAHAAA! You know absolutely nothing about my religious upbringing or my screen name. You are grasping at so many straws right now.
“Everything we do, our race, class, religion/ethnicity of origin, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, blah blah blah has everything to do with everything we say and are. The fact that you are so politically undeveloped that you deny this basic truth, means I have been wasting my time arguing with you.”
All I said was that my time in the Baptist church had no effect on my views of consent and bodily autonomy. which is entirely true. I do not know where you got the idea that I said anywhere that who and what I am had nothing to do with my race, class, gender, orientation or nationality. I never mentioned those until now. Unless of course you are merely creating strawman arguments in an attempt to discredit me instead of my arguments, I don’t know why you would attempt to attribute to me things I did not say….
Really, I had honestly hoped that we could have an open and honest discussion but it seems that you are not interested in approaching this with any level of maturity. If you wish to continue, I will be here, but this ….whatever it is…. that you are doing is really not helping. If I was a cynical person, I would think that you are trying to silence me but you would never do something as dishonest and disrespectful as that? would you?
Lamech, Jesus won’t email my lawyer, so will you? You will explain to her how I was raped by my ex husband, right? And as I said, you will also explain all of this to his current wife and children? Since I think this accusation might upset more than just him.
Gonna get this lawsuit rolling! (I have decided on a Bentley).
Lamech: In addition we see him being forcibly dragged away into the bedroom and having his clothes forcibly removed.
And then he sits and stares at Kate Hudson for awhile. Why do you guys keep forgetting this part? (Obviously, he wants her to join in and then she doesn’t). It doesn’t quite go along with the victim-narrative, just sitting there, now does it?
I think I might get a Lincoln AND a Bentley, since it looks like I have three rape lawsuits I can file, going according to Lamech and Jesus’ new rules on the use of the word “no” –delivered even during rowdy naked shenanigans.
And girls, as we know, that is only the beginning… the floodgates shall open! I say, we run Lamech and Jesus for office, so we can get their rules made THE LAW OF THE LAND. No man anywhere will have a dime left, once we are through reaming them out.
Lamech for president!
@Lamech:
Have you seen his eyes ? It’s obvious he agree. And he doesn’t push these girls away. He stay there.
Anyway, I don’t think that Daisy should have brought in this clip in a discussion about women raping men because the clip clearly shows it’s not a rape.
“Again, If he decides that he is ultimately OK with what happened despite his protestations, that his entirely his decision.
Um, but then why did you bring it up as an example of rape in the first place, if its “his decision”? Rape, by definition, means it was NOT “his decision”? Do you see?
You just admitted it wasn’t rape.”
No. It is his decision to frame it as a positive experience after the fact. If he wants to view it as such, he is free to do so, as are you. it does not change what happened. see the difference?
@Daisy:”Um, but then why did you bring it up as an example of rape in the first place, if its “his decision”? Rape, by definition, means it was NOT “his decision”? Do you see?
You just admitted it wasn’t rape.”
How do you…? Okay, rape is when you don’t consent to having sex yet someone goes ahead anyway. Just because something else afterwards was your decision does not negate rape before hand.
So consider the following example. A has sex with B, and B explicitly doesn’t consent. That would be rape. Then afterwards B makes a number of decisions, no matter what those decisions are none of them* would make the rape not have happened. B might have his breakfast the next day be “his decision”. Or maybe he decides it wasn’t traumatic the next day. Still doesn’t affect if the act was rape or not. Any after the fact decisions do not change if the rape occurred or not.
*Barring time travel.
In my previous comment (which is in moderation as I write this) I miswrote a word. Normally not a biggie, but I attributed that word to Daisy and I want to correct that:
Replace where I wrote trance with being enchanted when you read the comment above.
Jesus: Really, I had honestly hoped that we could have an open and honest discussion but it seems that you are not interested in approaching this with any level of maturity.
Are you kidding? I am trying to get you elected PRESIDENT! I think your Baptist sexual rules, applied nationwide, will make most women RICH RICH RICH! (as we know, the statute of limitations has run out on lots of stuff, but we can still file civil lawsuits) I am trying to get us all new cars, here… in fact, you could save Detroit SINGLE-HANDEDLY with this plan!
I think you are FANTASTIC, Jesus! You are going to make it so women never have to WORK EVER AGAIN and we can just live off all the men who have ever nagged us to have sex after an initial “no”… I think you need to go into politics and run on this as your whole PLATFORM! You certainly have my vote! I have ALWAYS wanted a Bentley and this is obviously my big chance.
I have an idea for a campaign commercial: (voice-over)
Women: has a man ever pressured you into lousy sex? Did you ever say no and then sigh and go ahead, maybe thinking later you will hit him up for some fancy new iphone or something else you wanted? THAT WAS RAPE, girls! Yes, I know, we just thought it was lousy, pressured or common bartering, but no, it was REAL RAPE, this Baptist MRA dude has pronounced it so!!! And you should vote for him, because making this law will open the legal floodgates to millions of lawsuits. The gravy train has pulled into the station.. As Gloria Allred likes to say: MR GREEN HAS ARRIVED!
Jesus and Lamech for president! I’m Daisy Deadhead and I approve this message.
What do you think?
Mr Nice Guy: Anyway, I don’t think that Daisy should have brought in this clip in a discussion about women raping men because the clip clearly shows it’s not a rape.
WHAT? I didn’t bring it up at all, Lamech did, as an example of women raping men.
Please read the actual thread, people.
last reply to Daisy – I know I shouldn’t do this….
First off, you have no concept of my sexual history, my views on sex, or anything else. My views regarding consent are not new, they are not radical. They are what any reasonable person should expect in a society that respects bodily autonomy. No means No. What is so anti sex or puritanical about such a philosophy? Answer that question.
Your baseless and utterly false accusations are both inappropriate and unappreciated. I am really not at all surprised that you get moderated as much as you do. I am convinced that you have no useful contributions to these discussions as you simply mock and try to silence anything you disagree with instead of engaging in an honest discussion. Your actions are more in keeping with those of a petulant child than an adult capable of discussion.
@Tamen
I hear you and your standards are good but not unreasonable (sadly higher than most people can manage), but remember what your goal is. You were asked for examples of female on male rape, by a skeptical audience. The impact you want is “OMG, I can totally see it happening now. Wow, never thought about it that way” not “Are you sure that’s rape, he looks really happy at the end. No way, I’ve had dozens of nights that went just like that, your crazy if you think that’s rape”.
Unfortunately you will be asked this again and again, so I’m saying the pragmatic thing is to drop that entry from your list. Hopefully Daisy will not leave thinking female rapists hail from Tamen’s land of unicorns.
@Daisy Deadhead :
Tamen talked about the movie first and you brought in the clip :
Saying it was an example of mixed signals and you started talking about statutory rape (which is not the same thing as non-consensual ordinary rape). It would have been better to say that the movie doesn’t fit with the other examples of movies given by Tamen – which are clear examples of women raping men.
Daisy, are you SERIOUS? Yes, no means no. That’s like, basic Second Wave feminism.
In general, on the Almost Famous thing– the movie is clearly under the impression the sex is consensual. That’s the problem. Because having sex with someone who has said “no”– without even a “hey, you okay with this?” check-in– is NOT OKAY. But because he’s a male, because he’s a teenager, because it’s group sex, because they’re attractive women, the movie basically assumes he’s okay with it– even when the circumstances could just as well be an overwhelmed kid who doesn’t really want the sex but doesn’t know how to express that he doesn’t.
Mod Voice time. Daisy, Jesus, cut it with the personal attacks. Anyone who posts something from now on that can even be interpreted as “no doesn’t mean no” gets spamfiltered. That is against the comment policy.
No, Mr Nice Guy, the Capt Kirk examples are both laughable… he falls in love with both of them later in the show. (One of them is shown as being on a planet in which the women are in charge, so um, that was sort of the point.) Yes, sorry it was Tamen, not Lamech… but it was not an example I would have chosen.
Of the examples given, this one, “Disclosure” and the Star Trek shows are the only ones I had seen.
***
Ozy, I assume he is “okay with it” because the author SAID SO. I am not inferring, I am going by the authors WORDS. Have you read the whole thread?
I did not bring up the example, although I am the one who posted the clip… which I foolishly thought would clarify the situation~!
Like any sexual activity, I go by what the participants SAY. But here, we see people saying the participant doesn’t know his own mind, even if he wrote it to convey what he recalls as a positive experience.
And ALL of them are kids, not just him.
But hey, I shall defer to all the people here with superior sexual sensibilities, politics and experience. After all, I am just a dumb redneck, I realize. I am that before I am anything, including Second Wave.
(speaking of which, what is “meta value” again?)
@Ozy – You have my Mea Culpa. I allowed myself to get drawn into a pissing contest. won’t happen again. Hopefully…
I agree with jesus_marley that. it’s rape. No means no. That’s it, that’s all. And I’m about as non-puritan as can be, too.
I was raised to mostly say fuck you to religion and be sex-positive. I’m pro-BDSM myself. I still don’t think you should go against the stated wishes of someone.
A sage whose name you would all recognize just offered me the wisdom that me and Cameron Crowe are the same age (within two months!) and that is why we tend to view this situation the same way.
Hm, maybe this blog is intended for people under 40? Is there anyone here over 40? Over 50? Am I the only person posting here, who is from the actual era portrayed in the film?
I guess you all will understand when mores change yet again (and they will), and everyone decides that *you* have nothing worthwhile to contribute, and even your own word for something that is your own story, is not to be believed…. and you will understand how ageist and arrogant that is.
Schala, I listen to the man’s whose actual biography it is. I don’t impose my meanings on his biography, just as I don’t think radical feminists should impose their meanings on YOUR life.
“Schala, I listen to the man’s whose actual biography it is. I don’t impose my meanings on his biography, just as I don’t think radical feminists should impose their meanings on YOUR life.”
No means no = Objective standard of consent. And one I can agree with more than Yes means yes (given there’s always the question of who needs to get the positive consent).
Rationalize it all you want, it’s still shitty.
I can say all I want that the bullying and beatings I had while young were “good things that helped forge my character”, it doesn’t change the fact that they fucking were assault.
Daisy:
That’s good. The women in that film did NOT go by what the participants said in the first part of that sexual activity (undressing someone after telling them that you’re going to have sex with them (deflower in this case) is in my view a sexual activity).
As I pointed out in an earlier comment, Cameron Crow did not recall this experience – it’s fictional and diverges from his real experience by one key fact. The groupie who offered him sex when he was 15 accepted his excuse for not taking her up on the offer and she did not press the issue.
However, if Almost Famous doesn’t quite match up to your standard of what is problematic behaviour around consent between women and men then perhaps this remainder of this clip from the show Oz is unambiguously enough for you:
*TRIGGER WARNING: This clip shows threats, violence and non-consentual sex*
I thought the link inluded the timemark – I guess that dissapeared when it got linked inline. The most pertinent portion is from appr. 5:28 and the rest of the clip.
@ Daisy – “I guess you all will understand when mores change yet again (and they will), and everyone decides that *you* have nothing worthwhile to contribute, and even your own word for something that is your own story, is not to be believed…. and you will understand how ageist and arrogant that is.”
As times change so must we all. So long as what is expected of us is reasonable and just, there is no reason to rail against necessary change. To claim that you are from a different era where things were different is an excuse. You are no longer in that era. what may have been acceptable long ago is no longer. That is the way it is for all of us.
@Tamen : The clip show exactly what is a female rapist. This is what we should discuss.
@Schala : The guy in the movie changed his mind. Do you agree that people can change their mind ?
Tamen: As I pointed out in an earlier comment, Cameron Crow did not recall this experience – it’s fictional and diverges from his real experience by one key fact. The groupie who offered him sex when he was 15 accepted his excuse for not taking her up on the offer and she did not press the issue.
I am going by this interview: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/crowe1.html
(And he gave several others at the time of the film’s release).
Q: And the scene in which his stand-in William is “deflowered” by a flock of “band-aids”?
A: “…is true. We were in Portland, and I was writing about Lee Michaels. [The groupies] were sitting around and decided this was boring and they needed to liven things up…It was terrifying! These girls controlled everything. They controlled the rockers. Then of course you’re hanging with the rockers and they’re in glorious states of denial. And it’s like, what happened to grand nobility of the muses that control the artist?”
He thinks it was terrifying, but he also liked being in the same class as the band, being with the same women the band was with. He also believes the groupies should have been treated better, as band-muses. That’s pretty amazing talk about his rapists, if you ask me.
If Crowe claimed it was fictional before 1976 (as you stated), then he was still living in his mother’s house and living under her rules… as we learn in the movie, his mother is strict. He would NEVER have copped to the story, knowing his mother would read it. I started writing fairly early, and I left plenty out too if I thought my mother was going to read it. 🙂
Other interviews talk about how he wanted them to look like a merry-go-round or carousel. (He wanted to catch the reflections of their scarves in Williams’s eye.) Director stuff.
But … hey I get it, grandma (particularly redneck grandma) is stupid. Yall know best! I don’t know anything. I am DUMB.AS.DIRT.
DD, properly put in her place, exiting thread.
“@Schala : The guy in the movie changed his mind. Do you agree that people can change their mind ?”
Wether I change my mind and tell someone to go ahead and punch me, it won’t hurt me, after they’ve already punched me…is immaterial. It’s still assault.
Sounds like freezing to me, by the way. If you want to convince a recalcitrant person, you don’t force them into the act and then deduce that they let you win, so they want it. No, you don’t do that if you value the person.
I’ve not merely stated that. I’ve provided links to Rolling Stones articles written by Cameron Crowe re-published on Cameron Crowes own official web site “The Uncool” in this comment: https://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/hard-hitting-piece-on-male-rape-at-feministe/#comment-31102
As well as a link to an interview from 1992 where he confirms that he lost his virginity to a divorced mother of a girl they knew.
If one is afraid of copping any sexual story to your mother – and in particular a story about having sex with several women your age or a few years older I would think one would not write this at he end of that same article she’s sure to read:
because that would really pass under the radar of any mother.
@Tamen
*This is off-topic, but I’m not sure how I can draw Tamen’s attention to the open thread. No worries if you need to delete this.
I’m curious as to why you’re named as you are. I’ve been studying Mandarin Chinese for a while now, and your name is how you write “they” in pinyin (a system, utilizing the roman alphabet, which you use to understand how to pronounce words). It’s lacking the accent mark over the “ta”, but that doesn’t keeping me from going “They what?!?!?” every time I read your name.
他们 … male script
她们 … female script
它们 … “it” script (kind of)
All pronounced the same. Anyhow, just curious.