Fear Of Music: “Realness” and Rock Vs. Pop

I apologize to any KISS fans out there, but I’ve never had much respect for Gene Simmons. From his constant philandering to his obnoxious Islamophobia, Simmons has always had an aura of sleaze in my book.

So his recent takedown of Rihanna and others as “fake” music is simply par for the course. It was rather bold talk from someone famous for running around stage in Kabuki makeup amid thousands of dollars of pyrotechnics.

Simmons’ comments came about a month after Dave Grohl made a less inflammatory (but just as passionate) plea for “real” music. As Racialicious pointed out, there was a racial component, even if unconscious, to Grohl’s comments. There is also a gender component to this. Invariably, “real” music is the kind of rock favored by white males. KISS and Nirvana “belong” in the Rock N’ Roll Hall Of Fame; Madonna does not.

The late 70s is usually shown as a battle between punk and disco. However, both were actually responses to the elephantine excess of studio-produced rock. In each case, they were the pop music of the excluded. Disco became huge because it appealed to women and gay males, who were ignored by most rock music.

In the early 80s there was a movement associated with Post-Punk that rejected what they called “Rockism,” roughly defined as an adherence to the standard band makeup of lead guitar, rhythm guitar, bass and drums. This setup was considered reactionary. Long guitar solos were rejected in favor of minimalist riffs and short songs.

Of course, by the time grunge came around, things had changed. Kurt Cobain rejected the macho posturing of the metal bands, but his music was within the same narrow range. Nirvana could use cellos or acoustic guitars in songs, but never anything resembling a synthesizer. I don’t think Cobain was consciously racist or femme-phobic, but a lot of his fans were.

In college, I hung out with people who fell on the progressive end of politics. It never ceased to amaze me that people who fought for inclusion and diversity were so narrow in their musical tastes. Gay dance artists were ignored in favour of earnest folk music and queer positive rockers like Cobain. If black music was represented, it was as reggae; dance music was too fake, rap too macho. For the young feminists, Madonna and other pop women were instruments of their own oppression by putting out slutty images.

So why defend so-called “fake” music? Isn’t it just bourgeois pablum designed to sell us stuff?

In a word, no. Sure, pop is overrun by the scourge of Autotune, and a lot of the lyrics are inane. But their have always been provocateurs in the field. Donna Summer’s “Bad Girls” was an unprecedented sympathetic look at prostitutes, while Grace Jones challenged the conventions of female beauty. These days, Lady Gaga and the even more outrageous Peaches are challenging gender norms in an exciting way.

Plus, disco and other dance music us fun and often celebratory, and we need all the celebration we can get. Emma Goldmann wanted a revolution you could dance to. As Cheryl Lynn sang (in a song adopted by drag artists) sometimes you’ve Got To Be Real.

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100 Responses to Fear Of Music: “Realness” and Rock Vs. Pop

  1. marc2020 says:

    Good stuff here Munkey but you left out one crucial componet of 80s music that I feel was instrmental in shaking things up gender presentation wise and bluring the boundrys of whats considerd real/fake. The new romantic and synth bands like Adam and the Ants, The Thompson Twins, Dead or Alive, Bronski Beat, Franky Goes To Holywood, A-ha and Depeche mode. I absolutly adored these bands growing up as they were a safe haven away from all the macho lad culture that was popping up around bands like Oasis.

    Also as much as I love Dave Grohl yeah that was a very silly thing to say and it’s a depressing reminder that he’s getting older now and dare I say it may be losing touch a bit.

    Oh and if I could be alowed to have a mini rant about Gene Simmons FUCK YOU YOU TALLENTLESS ASSHOLE IF IT WASN’T FOR ACE FREELY KNOW ONE WOULD EVEN KNOW WHO YOU WHERE. AS REFERENCE BY THE FACT THAT EVERYTHING YOU’VE PUT OUT SINCE HE QUIT HAS BEEN FUCKING TERRIBLE.

    Sorry had to get that off my chest.

  2. Dan_Brodribb says:

    Funny this post came up, because since checking out Gudenuf’s link in the Open Thread, I was just thinking about something similar.

    Back in the 80s, dumping on non-rock bands was a cliche metal bands used to get a positive audience reaction.

    And I guess it isn’t totally gone–I saw Rob Zombie do the same thing a couple years ago with Justin Bieber.

    At the same time, it seems to me that music is less insular than it used to be and people are less willing to be defined by the music they listen to. It used to be a point of pride that if you listened to one type of music, you were obligated to hate another style: alternative types hated mainstream, hip-hop hated country, metal heads hated…well other metal bands that they deemed less legitimate, I guess.

    I don’t see that social trend as much anymore. People like what they like. They also don’t seem to dump on others as much for liking whatever they like. And I also see less judging people by the music they listen to. People might not like the message behind Toby Keith or Nickelback’s music but they don’t as often paint the people who do like it with the negative traits from the music.

    I think it’s a positive thing.

  3. If I’m a good progressive and like earnest folksy stuff (vom), I’m not going to start listening to dance music and rap just to avoid “othering” anyone. I can favor gay marriage and hate nearly all electronica for purely aesthetic reasons.

    Due to a serious selection bias from my show-going days, most of the gay people I know don’t even like that stuff. To associate certain art forms with certain segments of society is a stereotype of limited use and usually collapses on impact with lived experience.

    This article sums up my feelings on the situation:

    TL;DR: Music gatekeepers like labels (for mainstream music) and record store clerks (for the supposedly pure indie stuff) are rendered useless by the availability of every song, everywhere, for free, in some form or another. Nobody has the authority to say what’s “cool” or “real” anymore.

    Grohl and Simmons are from a different era and their opinions should be treated as such.

    PS: Nice shout out to one of my favorite albums in the title!

  4. AnonymousDog says:

    I’m sorry, but trying to impose political ‘meaning’ onto music that was never intended to have such meaning is BS.
    Just because disco and dance music appealed to women and gays doesn’t in and of itself make it ‘good’. Neither does the fact that Lady Gaga and Peaches are “challenging gender norms” mean that their music is any good.

    It seems to me that you are trying to lay out which kinds of music are “kosher” for people with progressive politics to listen to, and which kinds are ‘ritually unclean’ for lefties.

  5. Alexander Case says:

    I respectfully disagree with the idea that describing “real music” is inherently bigoted. Members of minority communities have had a major role in rock. Jimi Hendrix & Carlos Santana are among the top five greatest guitarists in, if not human history, then the history of rock. Rock music was invented by a black man – Chuck Berry (and we can talk about the unfortunate implications in Back To The Future 1 later). Moving into metal – one of the biggest death metal bands of all time isn’t from Scandinavia, it’s from Brazil – Sepultura. Oh, and one of the greatest metal vocalists of all time – Rob Halford – is a gay man.

    I feel that the discussions of “Realness” in rock music are focused less around the excesses of pop, and more related to the idea of performer as artist (or artiste). While Lady GaGa is an extrodinary musician in her own right, a lot of pop singers aren’t. Even if they do write their own music, their vocals may be auto-tuned, and they probably don’t play any of the backing instruments – and when they perform live, their performances are designed to call attention away from this fact. On the other hand, with a band like, for example, Santana, or the Foo Fighters, or Judas Priest, or Iron Maiden, or hell, Van Canto, there is more, for lack of a better word, transparency there. The focus is on the musicians and their performances. How good (or in the case of death metal, deliberately bad) are the vocalists. How good is the guitarists, etc.

    All of this is also part of the reason for the rise of the singer-songwriter in the 70s and 80s, the lasting endurance of jazz and blues, and the many iterations of rock and metal. This is also, likely, why fans of Rock. and Rock musicians (like Dave Grohl), likely don’t connect with most pop (or disco), because they don’t connect with it.

    To be clear – I don’t hate pop, and I like fair amount of rap. But I can’t connect with much of pop. With the exception of performers like Lady GaGa – who has clearly demonstrated her musical ability, everything else feels far too engineered, contrived, and manufactured. Further, frankly, lyrics about getting wasted or partying in the club just don’t connect to me, as for a large part, I financially can’t afford to go to the club.

    Oh, and finally, Gene Simmons & Dave Mustaine can fuck off and die.

  6. rmyoun06 says:

    @AnonymousDog:

    I disagree. I think that, for most people, our aesthetic tastes are absolutely informed by our politics (or, at least, by our politically-freighted social attitudes). No one, or hardly anyone, simply likes or dislikes music in an aesthetic vacuum. I think that most people who have a per se dislike of rap music do so because they don’t like black people, and I think that most people who have a per se dislike of country do so because they think rednecks are beneath them. I’m as guilty of this as everyone else; I’m pretty sure the reason I’ve never been able to get in to Phish is for the most part because I don’t really like their fucking hippie fans.

    Anyway, if you accept the premise that your aesthetic tastes are informed by your social attitudes about the kinds of people certain genres of music are geared towards, then monkey’s post absolutely makes sense.

    PS: KISS has always sucked.

  7. Ted says:

    @anonymousdog, sorry all art is propaganda whether or not it was “meant” as such.

    That said, I’m apparently some kinda liberal for believing people ought to be payed enough to live off of, but I still prefer Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, Bruce Springsteen, Living Colour, and the Decemberists over Lady Gaga or whatever pop group is currently popular. Do I think those groups shouldn’t exist? No, they have a right to write and sing as they please just as I have a right to point out that it takes more than a solid base line to make a good song. That said there is as it stands no music group that is actually revolutionary in all things. Rise Against does protest stuff to the usual rock riffs, while Lady Gaga gets certain folks underwear in a twist to a pop beat. Neither of them are going to change the world in a dramatic fashion, instead they might inspire others to maybe change their habits for the better. We tend to forget that media has influence, not power. Power is in institutions and in numbers.

  8. Um, why is there a “racial component” to what Grohl said? Besides reggae, some of us love blues, funk, as well as old-school rhythm and blues, and would enjoy hearing an obviously-talented person with a lovely voice, like Rihanna, to sing a real song, not something all tarted up with bells and whistles. I hate that shit.

    I hate Gene Simmons more than you do, so point taken… however, Grohl was right. And excuse me, there are plenty of women in rock music, going back to Chrissie Hynde. We don’t hear from them because BEING PRETTY (as Rihanna is) has become paramount in the video age. THAT is sexism. Surprised that the appearance of women and the pressure to look good did not even rate a single mention in your post (when male artists can be fat and even give themselves name like “Biggie”–the last woman to sorta-kinda refer to her size in her stage-name was Mama Cass). This is ALSO what keeps women out of music (all kinds), a woman like Mama Cass could never get famous or well-known now.

    KISS and Nirvana “belong” in the Rock N’ Roll Hall Of Fame; Madonna does not.

    Well, duh, maybe its because she has never made any rock music? (She has also turned herself into a zombie with too much plastic surgery, botox, collagen and working out so much she looks like a skeleton… is she STILL ALIVE?)

    I don’t even consider Lady Gaga to be music. Sorry. The reason people like Adele and Amy Winehouse became mega-famous virtually overnight is because people are starved for real music instead of over-produced, unlistenable garbage. This is also the reason for blues, country and reggae’s continued popularity, even as middle-class people like you marginalize these genres.

    But I AM wondering why you didn’t mention country or blues in your post? There are many contemporary blues artists who are women, and there have ALWAYS been plenty of country singers who are women. Why did you render blues and country invisible? Both are more popular than reggae and folk, which rate mentions from you.

    Is there a class component in your post? (rhetorical question, I already know the answer)

    People outside of college and people who have NEVER ATTENDED college (gasp) listen to music too, did you know?

  9. AnonymousDog says:

    Ted,
    Obviously some music is intended to have a political message, but a lot isn’t. Disliking certain genres for political reasons is denying yourself the pleasure of that music for a twisted reason. Spending money on crappy music just because the artist has the ‘correct’ views is just dumb

    And the people who hate Country because they think it ‘redneck’ evidently don’t know some Country artists are pretty far left, politiclly.

  10. Ted says:

    Okay, so then no matter what a record label or band does I’m supposed to pretend their views don’t matter, nor does it inform their work? Think about Johnny Cash, who is now lionized for his country music would today be just another hollywood elitist for thinking we should work towards a better world see “man in black”. Although if you are only interested in artistic merit that will limit your available music dramatically, but will include samples from every genre. That said if there’s something you really love about KISS what does it matter what monkey or I say? The larger point is that certain folks love certain music because it reinforces their belief system, see my buying Rise Against’s latest album. In some cases where that belief system is anathema to your own, You need to vote with your wallet.

  11. bttf4444 says:

    Wow, this certainly does give us stuff to think about. Okay, a few things:

    * The first thing that should be pointed out is that I really don’t like the assumption that mostly men would like hard rock, and that women generally wouldn’t be interested in it. I don’t like the idea that I *should* like pop music, just because I’m a women. Then again, I know other feminists who feel the same way with pink.

    * That being said, it can be femmephobic to bash things things just because “women like them”. Twilight is probably a perfect example of that. Granted, as feminists, there are definitely a lot of problematic aspects to the Twilight trilogy – but it seems like most Twilight bashers don’t really care about that. To maybe a slightly lesser extent, Justin Bieber also tends to be a bit problematic.

    * Of course, while it may be a bit tough to be a woman that loves hard rock or heavy metal, it’s probably even tougher for men who like pop. Of course, a lot of it is due to the negative stigma that pop music itself has – but pop music does also seem to be bashed because “women like it”. As such, men who enjoy listening to pop music tend to get criticized harshly for it – and may get called names like “sissy” or “fag”.

    * The parallel to things with strong gender associations with culture-bound stuff is also a very important point, and it leads me to one question that I’ve been wanting to ask for awhile. As feminists, we have a tendancy to denounce the whole idea of “for boys” and “for girls”. However, if we were to apply that to race – it can be risky to denounce the idea of “for blacks” and “for whites”. Of course, black people should have a right to enjoy rock music – and, likewise, white people should have a right to enjoy hip-hop. Still, it can be problematic to insist that nothing is culture-bound – as there is the whole concept of “appropriation”. Do you think it can be just as problematic to insist that nothing is gender-bound, or is that different?

  12. bttf4444 says:

    Oops, I forgot to point out something else. One of my favourite bands is Avenged Sevenfold, and it seems like they take a lot of flack from the metal community – because it’s apparently, not “true metal”. Actually, I enjoy a lot of bands that may not be considered “true metal”. Personally, I really couldn’t erven give a rat’s ass of if it’s considered “metal” or not – buit the general idea with metalhead elitists seem to be this: not “true metal” = not worth listening to / listen to “false metal” anyway = a poseur, even if you don’t claim to be a metalhead.

    I also like a lot of hair metal. I understand that, from a feminist standpoint, there are a lot of problematic songs in the hair metal genre – but that doesn’t mean you should disregard the genre as a whole. Of course, there is also some femmephobia involved in bashing hair metal – since there’s a commom complaint that they tended to dress effeminately.

  13. no more mr nice guy says:

    Usually, there’s a difference between singers and their songs. Donna Summer was a disco diva in the 1970s and disco music was loved by gay men, yet at the beginning of the 1980s Donna Summer became a born-again Christian a few years later, strong rumors erupted that she had said homophobic remarks . Later she denied having said anything homophobic.

    In the same way the music of Kiss have nothing to do with Islam and was written several years before September 11.

  14. Ted says:

    Just remember that in all fan communities there are two types of fans, those that agree with you and those that disagree, you can either play nice and all learn to get along or you can insist the other side is just there to seize your fun. this is why we can have nice things and why Warhammer 40k is strictly a geek thing.

  15. bttf4444 says:

    What are your thoughts on Led Zeppelin? I know that some feminists have a problem with the band, and I definitely can see problematic lyrics in songs like Dazed and Confused. Still, I don’t like to throw out the baby with the bathwater. My favourite song by them is Over the Hills and Far Away, and I don’t really see anything problematic about that. Plus, I don’t like the idea that some people think Led Zeppelin is “for men”.

  16. Ted says:

    Yeah their lyrics aren’t the most progressive, ramble on and heartbreaker being the absolute nadir for me. that said there is a lot of talent, and in some case they have the exact opposite problem of pedastilization.

  17. no more mr nice guy says:

    @DaisyDeadhead :
    there are plenty of women in rock music, going back to Chrissie Hynde.

    Before her, there was Patti smith, Ann and Nancy Wilson from Heart and Janis Joplin and a few others.

  18. W.B. Reeves says:

    God, this argument about the putative nexus between art and politics has been going on since before rock and roll was invented and still it continues.In the fifties rock and roll was seen as a variety of pop music (at least post Elvis) and denounced in favor of folk. In the sixties Dylan was denounced as a sellout for picking up an electric guitar. In the seventies some denounced rock in favor of disco only to do a complete about face when the The Clash emerged. And so on and so on.

    The problem with this endless debate is that good politics don’t equate to good art and good art doesn’t equate to good politics. Any musical genre can become a vehicle for either progressive or reactionary sentiments. Attempting to categorize any style of music in terms of politics runs smack into this reality. For example; Rock the Casbah became a theme song for US troops in both Iraq Wars I & II and in Afghanistan. In this discussion someone claims that people who don’t like rap or hip hop don’t like it because its black, blithely ignoring the fact that rap and hip hop mark a generational divide within the African American community as well.

    To be clear, I’m not saying that art and politics are unrelated. I am saying that any fruitful discussion has to recognize that they are distinct with separate criteria. An individual’s taste doesn’t necessarily tell you anything about their politics nor do their politics necessarily define their taste.

  19. Just a correction: Patti was before Chrissie, but considered herself a poet first, unlike Hynde. Many people considered her a poet long after she started recording (and didn’t know anything about her rock career), she had two widely-different audiences. They have since merged, of course! One of the best shows I ever saw, even if I passed out first. (I came to, in time for the show to start.)

    Anon doggie: And the people who hate Country because they think it ‘redneck’ evidently don’t know some Country artists are pretty far left, politiclly.

    Yeah! Preach it! And even gay politics, I was so proud of Garth Brooks, back in the day:
    http://theweek.com/article/index/202574/country-musics-not-so-secret-gay-history

    The Drive-By Truckers are very lefty in their politics and subject matter, and give ONE HELLUVA SHOW! (insert redneck screams) Check out THESE lyrics: http://www.metrolyrics.com/putting-people-on-the-moon-lyrics-drive-by-truckers.html

    In fact, another interesting, related topic is how the genres of country and alt-country separated… “country” would be traditional, while “alt-country” contains the hell-raisers and radicals like McMurtry and the DBTs. They are also more likely to have women in their bands (again, like the DBTs).

    In Gene Simmons defense, I thought he was funny when he showed up at MTV in the late 80s, wearing kneepads, asking “Who do I blow to get my video played?” That kind of thing is how he got to be Gene Simmons.

  20. Chris says:

    I can still dislike most disco and dance music on purely aesthetic grounds though, right? Is it a problem if I just don’t get some genres?

  21. MaMu1977 says:

    Alexander Case said it all (IMHO): the disdain of pop music is its reliance on “bells and whistles” to mask deficient (and in many cases, nonexistent) levels of talent. It’s the reason why, to use a personal example, I’ve heard far more covers of Prince songs (here in New York City) by bar-level bands, than Michael Jackson songs (Prince, notoriously, is a musical performance savant, whereas MJ was a soundboard virtuoso.)

    P.S.-Singers like Tina Turner and Aretha Franklin were major inspirations for plenty of rock and roll artists (from a vocal standpoint: apocryphally, Mick Jagger was shocked into {temporary} sobriety that “*the*Aretha Franklin” was willing to do a song with him.)

  22. Ted says:

    And before that disco suffered similar stings, my dad work as a music critic for the local newspaper until recently, and in the 1970’s a co-worker joked that he could write a disco hit in ten minutes, but he wouldn’t know what to do with the other nine.

  23. MaMu1977 says:

    Also, problematic or not, Gene Simmons’ islamaphobia is a result of his familial background. When Trust-Fund McDouchebag or “Good-ol’ Beau” talks about hating Muslims (despite having never met any Muslims and living in in a muslim-free area, the privilege is galling. In Simmons’ case, the predations of Nazis and Islamic fundamentalists have “blessed” him with the ability to count his relatives on his *fingers* (with digits left over.) His entire bloodline is him, his mother, his two kids, a brother and three sisters. No mention of nieces or nephew, no mention of who his *father* could possibly be, that’s it (and his Israeli family members live in one of those sections of Israel where bombs of all sorts are detonated on a regular basis.) For us, islamaphobia is academic; for him, Islamaphobia can prevent extinction. Apples and hand grenades, anyone?

  24. Hugh says:

    ” I think that most people who have a per se dislike of rap music do so because they don’t like black people, and I think that most people who have a per se dislike of country do so because they think rednecks are beneath them.”

    Wow, really?

  25. monkey says:

    A couple points if clarification:

    I was not trying to suggest that no women, black or gay people perform or like rock music. My only point was that rock is considered the standard for “real” music, and that rock is primarily about the experiences of straight white males.

    As well, i was not trying to imply that dance music was better or more progressive than rock.My point was that this music is no less “authentic” than pop music.

    What I also think is worth questioning is the idea of virtuosity and the lack of electronics as being more authentic. However, Pink Floyd, The Beatles, and several other “classic rock” bands used electronics and studio trickery. As for virtuosity, the whole point of punk was its DIY attitude; for me, a lot of electronic dance music seems very DIY.

    Another example from the Grammys was the memelet that happened after someone tweeted “who the fuck is Paul McCartney?” The implication was “how dare these kids not know who one of The Beatles is?” never mind that he hasn’t had a charting hit in nearly 25 years.
    Amazingly, not everybody likes The Beatles.

    Marc2020: good call on the New Romantics. In many ways they were a product of the “anti-rockist” movement in post-punk.

  26. bttf4444 says:

    Unfortunately, if you go to just about any music video on YouTube – you’ll see a bunch of people acting elitist about their taste in music. You tend to see comments that range from “people who don’t like this song have no taste in music” to “this band/artist sucks”. And, of course, there are comments that say “those who disliked this video like Justin Bieber” or “this band/artist kicks Justin Bieber’s ass”. Basically, Justin Bieber is the whipping boy of YouTube – and you even see him get mentioned on non-music videos.

  27. monkey says:

    DaisyDeadhead:
    “Even as middle-class people like you marginalize them.”

    Wow, where did that come from? I like quite a bit of reggae, blues and country. However, to suggest that they are marginalized in the same way and for the same reasons as dance music is simply inaccurate. In any case, modern-day country and even reggae is often as pre-packaged as most pop. Taylor Swift is Katy Perry with a twang. Blues has remained “authentic” but a lot of the so-called authenticity is really a product of white middle-class condescension. When the Chicago bluesmen came to England, the English folkies wre dismayed to find that the artists they thought would be performing acoustic blues in overalls were playing electric instruments and wearing tailored suits.

    (for that matter, a lot of dance music comes from poor black and gay artists. Few of the disco performers went to college either)

    You don’t have to *like* Lady Gaga; truth be told she’s not my favorite. But it’s not right to say that what she does isn’t music.

    MaMu: I’ve read Simmons’ comments on Islam, and they go way beyond criticizing their anti-semitism. And the conflation of Islam with Naziism is frankly offensive.

  28. monkey says:

    Bttf4000: I’m not a Bieber fan, but the kid does write his own songs and has a decent voice. To my mind he’s no different from David Cassidy.

  29. no more mr nice guy says:

    @MaMu1977 :

    I don’t think Gene Simmons said what he said because he’s Jew. I think he’s like many people, he believe that most Muslims are like the Talibans.

  30. Hugh says:

    “The Talibans”

  31. Hugh says:

    It’s interesting munkey, you praise the post-punk movement for its anti-rockist ethics, but post-punk is just as dominated by male artists and has just as male a fanbase as the masculine/white rock music you claim it was moving away from.

  32. monkey says:

    Hugh: I think it could be argued that post-punk was a tad more integrated in race and gender than mainstream rock. If post-punk is considered big enough to include Two-Tone, The Specials and English Beat were multiracial and The Selecter were both multiracial and gender integrated. Bands as diverse as Talking Heads, Crass and Chumbawamba were gender integrated. It wasn’t *all* white males.

    In any case, I wasn’t holding up Post-punk as an ideal but as an alternative view of music with authenticity and integrity.

  33. Engineer Krause says:

    Wow. It seems like EVERYBODY is more up to date than me. What about opera?
    I turned down the opportunity to see Cosi fan Tutte (“Women are Like That”) live. Sure it would have been beautiful music, but I would have raged.

  34. 0thello says:

    DaisyDeadhead says:
    April 9, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    “Surprised that the appearance of women and the pressure to look good did not even rate a single mention in your post (when male artists can be fat and even give themselves name like “Biggie”–the last woman to sorta-kinda refer to her size in her stage-name was Mama Cass).”

    Oh come on lady, plenty of female hip hop artists have been fat or not conventionally attractive. You need only have a BASIC knowledge of hip hop history to know of Queen Latifah, Missy Elliot or Da Brat as well as a slew of others and these are just a few of the American artists. There are plenty of ‘these’ singers and rappers. Few of us deep into rap culture operate under the impression that female rappers will or have to be conventionally attractive to get anywhere; in fact we as hip hop culture enthusiasts have kind of come to expect them to look unattractive. This is one reason why Nicki Minaj took off like a damn rocket. “OMG a female rapper that is actually ‘pleasant’ to look at (if Harajuku barbies are your thing)”!? She’s got decent mic skills as well!? (lol not really). There might be the pressures to look attractive, to get to a plateau faster or higher than the ‘normals’ that have come before for women, however if you ask me, that’s not so much an disadvantage as it is an OPTION.

  35. Hugh says:

    I wouldn’t view any of those artists you listed as post-punk except in the strictly temporal sense. But even if we did, I could point out plenty of multiracial and gender integrated punk bands, too. The Germs, Killing Joke and the Dead Kennedys were racially integrated, and Gun Club and The Slits were gender integrated.

    I guess I don’t see why you feel that post-punk has authenticity and integrity, but punk music doesn’t. Not surprising really, since “authenticity” is very vague and “integrity” even more so. What exactly is “authentic” music? Authentic to what? Are you arguing that male-dominated rock isn’t authentic to the society it comes from? Seems to me it’s entirely authentic, and that’s the problem, because it’s a male-dominated, male-oriented society. You seem to just be using “authenticity” as a slightly more wordy version of “good”. Which, frankly, is symptomatic of the fuzziness that pervades what you’ve written here. I can’t help but feel that you simply started with your own musical preferences and worked backwards to find a reason why they were politically progressive. I’m still reeling at the idea that dislike of rap is generally caused by racism, frankly.

  36. Hugh says:

    “the last woman to sorta-kinda refer to her size in her stage-name was Mama Cass”

    Did she? I thought “mama” was just generic late-sixties slang for a woman. You would certainly know better than me, though.

  37. Possibly of interest: Celine Dion’s Let’s Talk About Love: an indie rock snob/critic does the hard mental work to figure out that Celine Dion is worth some attention and respect. The book has plenty about how taste gets constructed.

  38. Engineer Krause says:

    i’D guess that a lot of rap hatred is based on racism, but not anywhere near all dislike of it. I’ve heard scientific opinions that hatred of rap and hatred of opera are similar, and are based on these musical forms being very intense and a bit hard to listen to without your full attention. As well as being very culturally charged?

  39. Ted says:

    I’ll be honest this:

    Is my favourite rap song, because despite it’s mild problems it’s well written and the rhymes flow.

  40. W.B. Reeves says:

    Having gone over an read Racialicious’. post I have to say that I think the criticism of
    Grohl is pretty contrived. It seems to rest entirely on a negative reference to “what goes on in a computer” and the fact that Grohl imagines that he has the ability to distinguish between what is and is not “human” music. Since there is no obvious racial content to either point Racialicious has to supply one by assuming that Grohl was dissing any tech/synth tainted music. Mebbe so but I tend think that if he meant that he would have said so. I also think it more likely he was using the computer as a metaphor for over produced commercial product that lacked heart. The kind of thing that Rahsan Roland Kirk used to call “bubble music”.As for the second point, everyone who holds an opinion about what is or isn’t good music is asserting the same critical ability as Grohl.

    Pretty thin stuff. Racialicious seems to sense this, making sure to say that the racial content was probably “unconscious”. That comes across as a fancy way of saying that it doesn’t really matter what Grohl actually meant. No, what matters is the “context” that Racialicious wants to place it in. In this instance, a general criticism of the Grammy’s. The criticism may have merit but trying to make Grohl the poster boy for the failings of the industry that controls the awards show just undermines the point that Racialicious is trying to make.

  41. Will says:

    Yeah this is pretty poor stuff from a good website.

  42. monkey says:

    Hugh: I wasn’t arguing that post-punk was more authentic, of that it was authentic while punk and mainstream rock was not. My only point was that it offered an alternative view of what comprised “good” music.

    I don’t think Grohl was being consciously racist or sexist, but Simmons sure as hell was.

    As for unconventionally attractive women, mainstream rock doesn’t have that great a track record either. And in its defense some of the biggest disco divas were large women.

    All I’m really asking is that people question the idea that only one kind of music is progressive, “authentic,” or even good.
    I’m not suggesting you have to like something you don’t.

  43. Without getting into specific types of music, I believe that if someone has disliking a particular sort of music as part of their habitual identity (in other words, they complain about it even when they haven’t been overexposed to it), it’s probably some sort of status maintenance.

  44. marc2020 says:

    I don’t know about the whole Grohl comments I mean this is man who has spoken openly about his love of Killing Joke and Gary Numan (whom I think is a genious) two of the main pervayers of so called “fake music” The Foo Fighters even do an amazing cover of Numans Down in the Park so it seems odd that he should complain about it now.

  45. There’s a huge racial and class element to popular music genres! Much of the most beloved and influential music made in the last hundred years was made my people of color, but popularized by white musicians who seized directly on culturally appropriated material. Who was more popular during rock’s advent years, Elvis Presley or Chuck Berry? How many songs from the Beatles’ early records are lifted note-by-note from smaller Motown acts- Anna (Go With Him), Twist and Shout, etc?

    These days, I find that pleas for “real” music are often exhortations for audiences to seek out and treasure the original, often-colorful version of popular songs and styles (Berry), rather than the white imitation (Presley). Which can lead to some ridiculous scenes, like a very aged Mississippi John Hurt singing C-H-I-C-K-E-N to a largely affluent, white audience, many of whom were no doubt neglecting younger musicians, be they of color or not.

    The author is right, there’s no way to appreciate musical values without connecting them to one’s own social, human values. Which is actually encouraging, in a way- opening one’s perspective to a greater human experience has, among its perks, an appreciation of more, better music. Like the song says, “free your mind, and your ass will follow.”

  46. Hugh says:

    @monkey: You might want to reel back on the whole “If you don’t like rap music, you’re probably a racist” thing, then, because it’s kind of at odds with the idea that we don’t have to like certain types of music. Yes, I know I’m fixating on that, but fuck me, that’s a pretty huge statement.

    As for the idea that there’s only one type of music that’s authentic, I think we’d be well served to just chuck the concept of “authenticity” entirely, not least in relation to music.

  47. kaija24 says:

    This post/discussion reminds me of this piece on how rap and opera, two genres that are widely “hated”, share some commonalities. http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2012/02/16/146997896/why-do-people-hate-rap-and-opera

    I thought it was quite interesting and made me think about music from some other angles (though I do like both rap and opera). 🙂

  48. monkey says:

    Hugh: I have said nothing that could even imply that anyone is racist for not liking rap music.

    What arguably could be racially charged is the notion among some that rap isn’t music at all.

  49. Mori says:

    I agree with some of this. I’m a metal fan who goes to a lot of shows and a small minority of bands and performers like to go on about ‘fake’ music (Justin Beiber, anything connected to Simon Cowell) in a way that makes me uncomfortable. I feel like these bands should not feel like they need to point out to their crowds that these artists do not write their own music and they do so they deserve a cookie and everyone in the crowd can feel like they like the ‘real’ music and nobody else does…what crap. It kind of feels like the band does not feel like their show can uplift the crowd enough without resorting to these abjectly stupid tactics. The music world does not divide into ‘real’ music (rock bands) and ‘fake’ music (pop singers and groups), and a few rock bands and rock fans need to remember this.

    I do, however, feel like you are being a bit harsh on your progressive college friends, though. Music taste is affected by a lot of factors but to a point people can’t really help what sounds good to their ears. And I think they have the right to have a non-diverse music taste as much as they want, if (and this I also think is very important) they are not aggressive about it to others. No one should act as if they are a better, more fully rounded person than someone else because they think their tastse in music is ‘realer’, or (yes, this too) more diverse than someone elses. I don’t like to see people looking down on others because they like music that in that person’s opinion is contemptable. The music world needs to contain a lot more live and let live.

    I think a lot of people object to some pop musicians and pop songs because they do not like the music and (this is the important bit) cannot fathom why this music they consider crap got so popular and they have to hear it in every shop, on their radio stations and on TV constantly. It would also be nice if Simon Cowell and others of his ilk would stop acting like having a perfect voice is all it takes to ‘be a star’ when some of the hugest stars out there have technically horrible voices and this doesn’t matter.

  50. bttf4444 says:

    Mori, I completely agree with you on your second paragraph. It seems like even some people who condemn music elitism will go on about how “important” it is to have “a diverse taste in music”. There’s nothing wrong with limited tastes, so long as they’re not trying to push those tastes onto other people. The latter should not be confused with the former.

    The same thing can apply to this whole “true fan” nonsense. Yeah, it may be annoying to see someone wearing a tee-shirt of a band that they don’t really listen to – perhaps because you were hoping hoping to be able to converse with said person about said band. In the end, though, it’s their choice of what to wear.

    BTW, I think “taste shaming” (making people feel bad for what they like) should be talked about more. It’s just as bad as “slut shaming” and “body shaming”.

  51. othello reminds me there ARE fat women in contemporary music: Queen Latifah, Missy Elliot or Da Brat

    And that is a very good point… I have heard never-ending weight loss and diet talk from two out of three of these women. When is the last male rap star to tell you all about his weight loss efforts in great detail? (not saying there isn’t any, but I am saying they do NOT cover these men’s diets in mainstream media, HLN, Entertainment Tonight, etc… as these women’s diets and weight-loss efforts, have been.)

    So you actually made my point FOR me. Thank you.

  52. Hugh: Did she? I thought “mama” was just generic late-sixties slang for a woman. You would certainly know better than me, though.

    Well, it actually referred to her being in the Mamas and Papas. Thing is, so was Michele Phillips, thin, tall, and sleek, and no one ever referred to Michele as “Mama Michele”…so there was a big difference in the way the two women were regarded. Mama Cass had to be talked into joining, since she was so worried about how big she would look next to Michele. (Michele begged her, since she did not want to be the only woman!) An early memory I have, is a conversation in my school restroom after the Mamas and Papas had been on the Ed Sullivan show, and all the girls were AGHAST that a fat woman was allowed on TV. Really and truly, she might have been the first!

    And in fairness, Mama Cass was well-known as a great hippie hostess, and the “Mama” title also referred to her welcoming and nurturing persona (David Crosby called her, notably, “The Gertrude Stein of Laurel Canyon”–and she was apparently one of the main inspirations for Joni Mitchell’s beautiful song, “Ladies of the Canyon”)… but in the American mainstream, the “Mama” title signaled that she was NOT regarded as sexual or attractive.

    The “Mama” in 60s-slang came from bikers… and a “motorcycle mama” was a woman who belonged to the entire biker-club, not just one man. She serviced everyone; she was usually fat and usually much older… often her biker-partner had died or was in prison. I think its interesting that they gave her this mothering title, rather than some “slut” title, though. It was actually regarded as a title of respect. (for more, check out Hunter Thompson’s book on the Hells Angels) It was in the 70s that the term “Mama” went mainstream, and Mama Cass likely benefited from that. But it still upset me that Michele never got called Mama, although I think she became an actual mother before Cass did?

  53. Just a metalhead says:

    By my name, you can guess where I stand.

    I think most people making the “real” comment don’t have any racial or political baggage. It’s just that the music they target is generally either very simplistic or mass-produced. The people you see on the scene have next to nothing to do with the actual music, which is likely made to hook people with simple melodies according to what tested better. That music has no soul to them, it’s just a commercial product made by huge music companies that get pretty faces to dance and lip-sync when it’s playing, that’s why they’re called “fake”.

    The music these people call true (or tr00) generally comes from the musicians in the group themselves. It’s art, they really come up with the music and the lyrics and they perform it. They often have solos just to demonstrate their proficiency with their instruments. So what they don’t isn’t perfect and not focus group-approved… who cares? It’s raw, it’s real.

    It’s like the difference between a summer blockbuster made “by the number” and movies made with a vision from a director who controls what he makes. I’m not saying that people are “wrong” to like commercial mass-produced music, I often go see soulless blockbusters and enjoy it (I call them “excuses to eat popcorn”), but I think there is a valid point to make for the “true” music’s superiority on a certain artistic level.

  54. Just a metalhead; my point is that what you call “realness” is pretty much an illusion. Metal is a mongrel music made up of blues via British musicians of the 60s combined with a ton of other influences. In many ways it’s as codified as pop music. Another music praised for its “realness”, reggae, consciously began as a Jamaican answer to black American pop As for virtuosity, only the most seasoned rock players could match a decent jazz player.

    What I’m trying to say is that we should avoid the idea that white rock music is the “official” music of a particular era. That wasn’t true in the 60s, which was as much about Motown as it was The Beatles, or even the 90s, which was as much about gangsta rap as it was Nirvana (maybe even moreso)