I apologize to any KISS fans out there, but I’ve never had much respect for Gene Simmons. From his constant philandering to his obnoxious Islamophobia, Simmons has always had an aura of sleaze in my book.
So his recent takedown of Rihanna and others as “fake” music is simply par for the course. It was rather bold talk from someone famous for running around stage in Kabuki makeup amid thousands of dollars of pyrotechnics.
Simmons’ comments came about a month after Dave Grohl made a less inflammatory (but just as passionate) plea for “real” music. As Racialicious pointed out, there was a racial component, even if unconscious, to Grohl’s comments. There is also a gender component to this. Invariably, “real” music is the kind of rock favored by white males. KISS and Nirvana “belong” in the Rock N’ Roll Hall Of Fame; Madonna does not.
The late 70s is usually shown as a battle between punk and disco. However, both were actually responses to the elephantine excess of studio-produced rock. In each case, they were the pop music of the excluded. Disco became huge because it appealed to women and gay males, who were ignored by most rock music.
In the early 80s there was a movement associated with Post-Punk that rejected what they called “Rockism,” roughly defined as an adherence to the standard band makeup of lead guitar, rhythm guitar, bass and drums. This setup was considered reactionary. Long guitar solos were rejected in favor of minimalist riffs and short songs.
Of course, by the time grunge came around, things had changed. Kurt Cobain rejected the macho posturing of the metal bands, but his music was within the same narrow range. Nirvana could use cellos or acoustic guitars in songs, but never anything resembling a synthesizer. I don’t think Cobain was consciously racist or femme-phobic, but a lot of his fans were.
In college, I hung out with people who fell on the progressive end of politics. It never ceased to amaze me that people who fought for inclusion and diversity were so narrow in their musical tastes. Gay dance artists were ignored in favour of earnest folk music and queer positive rockers like Cobain. If black music was represented, it was as reggae; dance music was too fake, rap too macho. For the young feminists, Madonna and other pop women were instruments of their own oppression by putting out slutty images.
So why defend so-called “fake” music? Isn’t it just bourgeois pablum designed to sell us stuff?
In a word, no. Sure, pop is overrun by the scourge of Autotune, and a lot of the lyrics are inane. But their have always been provocateurs in the field. Donna Summer’s “Bad Girls” was an unprecedented sympathetic look at prostitutes, while Grace Jones challenged the conventions of female beauty. These days, Lady Gaga and the even more outrageous Peaches are challenging gender norms in an exciting way.
Plus, disco and other dance music us fun and often celebratory, and we need all the celebration we can get. Emma Goldmann wanted a revolution you could dance to. As Cheryl Lynn sang (in a song adopted by drag artists) sometimes you’ve Got To Be Real.
Good stuff here Munkey but you left out one crucial componet of 80s music that I feel was instrmental in shaking things up gender presentation wise and bluring the boundrys of whats considerd real/fake. The new romantic and synth bands like Adam and the Ants, The Thompson Twins, Dead or Alive, Bronski Beat, Franky Goes To Holywood, A-ha and Depeche mode. I absolutly adored these bands growing up as they were a safe haven away from all the macho lad culture that was popping up around bands like Oasis.
Also as much as I love Dave Grohl yeah that was a very silly thing to say and it’s a depressing reminder that he’s getting older now and dare I say it may be losing touch a bit.
Oh and if I could be alowed to have a mini rant about Gene Simmons FUCK YOU YOU TALLENTLESS ASSHOLE IF IT WASN’T FOR ACE FREELY KNOW ONE WOULD EVEN KNOW WHO YOU WHERE. AS REFERENCE BY THE FACT THAT EVERYTHING YOU’VE PUT OUT SINCE HE QUIT HAS BEEN FUCKING TERRIBLE.
Sorry had to get that off my chest.
Funny this post came up, because since checking out Gudenuf’s link in the Open Thread, I was just thinking about something similar.
Back in the 80s, dumping on non-rock bands was a cliche metal bands used to get a positive audience reaction.
And I guess it isn’t totally gone–I saw Rob Zombie do the same thing a couple years ago with Justin Bieber.
At the same time, it seems to me that music is less insular than it used to be and people are less willing to be defined by the music they listen to. It used to be a point of pride that if you listened to one type of music, you were obligated to hate another style: alternative types hated mainstream, hip-hop hated country, metal heads hated…well other metal bands that they deemed less legitimate, I guess.
I don’t see that social trend as much anymore. People like what they like. They also don’t seem to dump on others as much for liking whatever they like. And I also see less judging people by the music they listen to. People might not like the message behind Toby Keith or Nickelback’s music but they don’t as often paint the people who do like it with the negative traits from the music.
I think it’s a positive thing.
If I’m a good progressive and like earnest folksy stuff (vom), I’m not going to start listening to dance music and rap just to avoid “othering” anyone. I can favor gay marriage and hate nearly all electronica for purely aesthetic reasons.
Due to a serious selection bias from my show-going days, most of the gay people I know don’t even like that stuff. To associate certain art forms with certain segments of society is a stereotype of limited use and usually collapses on impact with lived experience.
This article sums up my feelings on the situation:
TL;DR: Music gatekeepers like labels (for mainstream music) and record store clerks (for the supposedly pure indie stuff) are rendered useless by the availability of every song, everywhere, for free, in some form or another. Nobody has the authority to say what’s “cool” or “real” anymore.
Grohl and Simmons are from a different era and their opinions should be treated as such.
PS: Nice shout out to one of my favorite albums in the title!
I’m sorry, but trying to impose political ‘meaning’ onto music that was never intended to have such meaning is BS.
Just because disco and dance music appealed to women and gays doesn’t in and of itself make it ‘good’. Neither does the fact that Lady Gaga and Peaches are “challenging gender norms” mean that their music is any good.
It seems to me that you are trying to lay out which kinds of music are “kosher” for people with progressive politics to listen to, and which kinds are ‘ritually unclean’ for lefties.
I respectfully disagree with the idea that describing “real music” is inherently bigoted. Members of minority communities have had a major role in rock. Jimi Hendrix & Carlos Santana are among the top five greatest guitarists in, if not human history, then the history of rock. Rock music was invented by a black man – Chuck Berry (and we can talk about the unfortunate implications in Back To The Future 1 later). Moving into metal – one of the biggest death metal bands of all time isn’t from Scandinavia, it’s from Brazil – Sepultura. Oh, and one of the greatest metal vocalists of all time – Rob Halford – is a gay man.
I feel that the discussions of “Realness” in rock music are focused less around the excesses of pop, and more related to the idea of performer as artist (or artiste). While Lady GaGa is an extrodinary musician in her own right, a lot of pop singers aren’t. Even if they do write their own music, their vocals may be auto-tuned, and they probably don’t play any of the backing instruments – and when they perform live, their performances are designed to call attention away from this fact. On the other hand, with a band like, for example, Santana, or the Foo Fighters, or Judas Priest, or Iron Maiden, or hell, Van Canto, there is more, for lack of a better word, transparency there. The focus is on the musicians and their performances. How good (or in the case of death metal, deliberately bad) are the vocalists. How good is the guitarists, etc.
All of this is also part of the reason for the rise of the singer-songwriter in the 70s and 80s, the lasting endurance of jazz and blues, and the many iterations of rock and metal. This is also, likely, why fans of Rock. and Rock musicians (like Dave Grohl), likely don’t connect with most pop (or disco), because they don’t connect with it.
To be clear – I don’t hate pop, and I like fair amount of rap. But I can’t connect with much of pop. With the exception of performers like Lady GaGa – who has clearly demonstrated her musical ability, everything else feels far too engineered, contrived, and manufactured. Further, frankly, lyrics about getting wasted or partying in the club just don’t connect to me, as for a large part, I financially can’t afford to go to the club.
Oh, and finally, Gene Simmons & Dave Mustaine can fuck off and die.
@AnonymousDog:
I disagree. I think that, for most people, our aesthetic tastes are absolutely informed by our politics (or, at least, by our politically-freighted social attitudes). No one, or hardly anyone, simply likes or dislikes music in an aesthetic vacuum. I think that most people who have a per se dislike of rap music do so because they don’t like black people, and I think that most people who have a per se dislike of country do so because they think rednecks are beneath them. I’m as guilty of this as everyone else; I’m pretty sure the reason I’ve never been able to get in to Phish is for the most part because I don’t really like their fucking hippie fans.
Anyway, if you accept the premise that your aesthetic tastes are informed by your social attitudes about the kinds of people certain genres of music are geared towards, then monkey’s post absolutely makes sense.
PS: KISS has always sucked.
@anonymousdog, sorry all art is propaganda whether or not it was “meant” as such.
That said, I’m apparently some kinda liberal for believing people ought to be payed enough to live off of, but I still prefer Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, Bruce Springsteen, Living Colour, and the Decemberists over Lady Gaga or whatever pop group is currently popular. Do I think those groups shouldn’t exist? No, they have a right to write and sing as they please just as I have a right to point out that it takes more than a solid base line to make a good song. That said there is as it stands no music group that is actually revolutionary in all things. Rise Against does protest stuff to the usual rock riffs, while Lady Gaga gets certain folks underwear in a twist to a pop beat. Neither of them are going to change the world in a dramatic fashion, instead they might inspire others to maybe change their habits for the better. We tend to forget that media has influence, not power. Power is in institutions and in numbers.
Um, why is there a “racial component” to what Grohl said? Besides reggae, some of us love blues, funk, as well as old-school rhythm and blues, and would enjoy hearing an obviously-talented person with a lovely voice, like Rihanna, to sing a real song, not something all tarted up with bells and whistles. I hate that shit.
I hate Gene Simmons more than you do, so point taken… however, Grohl was right. And excuse me, there are plenty of women in rock music, going back to Chrissie Hynde. We don’t hear from them because BEING PRETTY (as Rihanna is) has become paramount in the video age. THAT is sexism. Surprised that the appearance of women and the pressure to look good did not even rate a single mention in your post (when male artists can be fat and even give themselves name like “Biggie”–the last woman to sorta-kinda refer to her size in her stage-name was Mama Cass). This is ALSO what keeps women out of music (all kinds), a woman like Mama Cass could never get famous or well-known now.
KISS and Nirvana “belong” in the Rock N’ Roll Hall Of Fame; Madonna does not.
Well, duh, maybe its because she has never made any rock music? (She has also turned herself into a zombie with too much plastic surgery, botox, collagen and working out so much she looks like a skeleton… is she STILL ALIVE?)
I don’t even consider Lady Gaga to be music. Sorry. The reason people like Adele and Amy Winehouse became mega-famous virtually overnight is because people are starved for real music instead of over-produced, unlistenable garbage. This is also the reason for blues, country and reggae’s continued popularity, even as middle-class people like you marginalize these genres.
But I AM wondering why you didn’t mention country or blues in your post? There are many contemporary blues artists who are women, and there have ALWAYS been plenty of country singers who are women. Why did you render blues and country invisible? Both are more popular than reggae and folk, which rate mentions from you.
Is there a class component in your post? (rhetorical question, I already know the answer)
People outside of college and people who have NEVER ATTENDED college (gasp) listen to music too, did you know?
Ted,
Obviously some music is intended to have a political message, but a lot isn’t. Disliking certain genres for political reasons is denying yourself the pleasure of that music for a twisted reason. Spending money on crappy music just because the artist has the ‘correct’ views is just dumb
And the people who hate Country because they think it ‘redneck’ evidently don’t know some Country artists are pretty far left, politiclly.
Okay, so then no matter what a record label or band does I’m supposed to pretend their views don’t matter, nor does it inform their work? Think about Johnny Cash, who is now lionized for his country music would today be just another hollywood elitist for thinking we should work towards a better world see “man in black”. Although if you are only interested in artistic merit that will limit your available music dramatically, but will include samples from every genre. That said if there’s something you really love about KISS what does it matter what monkey or I say? The larger point is that certain folks love certain music because it reinforces their belief system, see my buying Rise Against’s latest album. In some cases where that belief system is anathema to your own, You need to vote with your wallet.
Wow, this certainly does give us stuff to think about. Okay, a few things:
* The first thing that should be pointed out is that I really don’t like the assumption that mostly men would like hard rock, and that women generally wouldn’t be interested in it. I don’t like the idea that I *should* like pop music, just because I’m a women. Then again, I know other feminists who feel the same way with pink.
* That being said, it can be femmephobic to bash things things just because “women like them”. Twilight is probably a perfect example of that. Granted, as feminists, there are definitely a lot of problematic aspects to the Twilight trilogy – but it seems like most Twilight bashers don’t really care about that. To maybe a slightly lesser extent, Justin Bieber also tends to be a bit problematic.
* Of course, while it may be a bit tough to be a woman that loves hard rock or heavy metal, it’s probably even tougher for men who like pop. Of course, a lot of it is due to the negative stigma that pop music itself has – but pop music does also seem to be bashed because “women like it”. As such, men who enjoy listening to pop music tend to get criticized harshly for it – and may get called names like “sissy” or “fag”.
* The parallel to things with strong gender associations with culture-bound stuff is also a very important point, and it leads me to one question that I’ve been wanting to ask for awhile. As feminists, we have a tendancy to denounce the whole idea of “for boys” and “for girls”. However, if we were to apply that to race – it can be risky to denounce the idea of “for blacks” and “for whites”. Of course, black people should have a right to enjoy rock music – and, likewise, white people should have a right to enjoy hip-hop. Still, it can be problematic to insist that nothing is culture-bound – as there is the whole concept of “appropriation”. Do you think it can be just as problematic to insist that nothing is gender-bound, or is that different?
Oops, I forgot to point out something else. One of my favourite bands is Avenged Sevenfold, and it seems like they take a lot of flack from the metal community – because it’s apparently, not “true metal”. Actually, I enjoy a lot of bands that may not be considered “true metal”. Personally, I really couldn’t erven give a rat’s ass of if it’s considered “metal” or not – buit the general idea with metalhead elitists seem to be this: not “true metal” = not worth listening to / listen to “false metal” anyway = a poseur, even if you don’t claim to be a metalhead.
I also like a lot of hair metal. I understand that, from a feminist standpoint, there are a lot of problematic songs in the hair metal genre – but that doesn’t mean you should disregard the genre as a whole. Of course, there is also some femmephobia involved in bashing hair metal – since there’s a commom complaint that they tended to dress effeminately.
Usually, there’s a difference between singers and their songs. Donna Summer was a disco diva in the 1970s and disco music was loved by gay men, yet at the beginning of the 1980s Donna Summer became a born-again Christian a few years later, strong rumors erupted that she had said homophobic remarks . Later she denied having said anything homophobic.
In the same way the music of Kiss have nothing to do with Islam and was written several years before September 11.
Just remember that in all fan communities there are two types of fans, those that agree with you and those that disagree, you can either play nice and all learn to get along or you can insist the other side is just there to seize your fun. this is why we can have nice things and why Warhammer 40k is strictly a geek thing.
What are your thoughts on Led Zeppelin? I know that some feminists have a problem with the band, and I definitely can see problematic lyrics in songs like Dazed and Confused. Still, I don’t like to throw out the baby with the bathwater. My favourite song by them is Over the Hills and Far Away, and I don’t really see anything problematic about that. Plus, I don’t like the idea that some people think Led Zeppelin is “for men”.
Yeah their lyrics aren’t the most progressive, ramble on and heartbreaker being the absolute nadir for me. that said there is a lot of talent, and in some case they have the exact opposite problem of pedastilization.
@DaisyDeadhead :
there are plenty of women in rock music, going back to Chrissie Hynde.
Before her, there was Patti smith, Ann and Nancy Wilson from Heart and Janis Joplin and a few others.
God, this argument about the putative nexus between art and politics has been going on since before rock and roll was invented and still it continues.In the fifties rock and roll was seen as a variety of pop music (at least post Elvis) and denounced in favor of folk. In the sixties Dylan was denounced as a sellout for picking up an electric guitar. In the seventies some denounced rock in favor of disco only to do a complete about face when the The Clash emerged. And so on and so on.
The problem with this endless debate is that good politics don’t equate to good art and good art doesn’t equate to good politics. Any musical genre can become a vehicle for either progressive or reactionary sentiments. Attempting to categorize any style of music in terms of politics runs smack into this reality. For example; Rock the Casbah became a theme song for US troops in both Iraq Wars I & II and in Afghanistan. In this discussion someone claims that people who don’t like rap or hip hop don’t like it because its black, blithely ignoring the fact that rap and hip hop mark a generational divide within the African American community as well.
To be clear, I’m not saying that art and politics are unrelated. I am saying that any fruitful discussion has to recognize that they are distinct with separate criteria. An individual’s taste doesn’t necessarily tell you anything about their politics nor do their politics necessarily define their taste.
Just a correction: Patti was before Chrissie, but considered herself a poet first, unlike Hynde. Many people considered her a poet long after she started recording (and didn’t know anything about her rock career), she had two widely-different audiences. They have since merged, of course! One of the best shows I ever saw, even if I passed out first. (I came to, in time for the show to start.)
Anon doggie: And the people who hate Country because they think it ‘redneck’ evidently don’t know some Country artists are pretty far left, politiclly.
Yeah! Preach it! And even gay politics, I was so proud of Garth Brooks, back in the day:
http://theweek.com/article/index/202574/country-musics-not-so-secret-gay-history
The Drive-By Truckers are very lefty in their politics and subject matter, and give ONE HELLUVA SHOW! (insert redneck screams) Check out THESE lyrics: http://www.metrolyrics.com/putting-people-on-the-moon-lyrics-drive-by-truckers.html
In fact, another interesting, related topic is how the genres of country and alt-country separated… “country” would be traditional, while “alt-country” contains the hell-raisers and radicals like McMurtry and the DBTs. They are also more likely to have women in their bands (again, like the DBTs).
In Gene Simmons defense, I thought he was funny when he showed up at MTV in the late 80s, wearing kneepads, asking “Who do I blow to get my video played?” That kind of thing is how he got to be Gene Simmons.
I can still dislike most disco and dance music on purely aesthetic grounds though, right? Is it a problem if I just don’t get some genres?
Alexander Case said it all (IMHO): the disdain of pop music is its reliance on “bells and whistles” to mask deficient (and in many cases, nonexistent) levels of talent. It’s the reason why, to use a personal example, I’ve heard far more covers of Prince songs (here in New York City) by bar-level bands, than Michael Jackson songs (Prince, notoriously, is a musical performance savant, whereas MJ was a soundboard virtuoso.)
P.S.-Singers like Tina Turner and Aretha Franklin were major inspirations for plenty of rock and roll artists (from a vocal standpoint: apocryphally, Mick Jagger was shocked into {temporary} sobriety that “*the*Aretha Franklin” was willing to do a song with him.)
And before that disco suffered similar stings, my dad work as a music critic for the local newspaper until recently, and in the 1970’s a co-worker joked that he could write a disco hit in ten minutes, but he wouldn’t know what to do with the other nine.
Also, problematic or not, Gene Simmons’ islamaphobia is a result of his familial background. When Trust-Fund McDouchebag or “Good-ol’ Beau” talks about hating Muslims (despite having never met any Muslims and living in in a muslim-free area, the privilege is galling. In Simmons’ case, the predations of Nazis and Islamic fundamentalists have “blessed” him with the ability to count his relatives on his *fingers* (with digits left over.) His entire bloodline is him, his mother, his two kids, a brother and three sisters. No mention of nieces or nephew, no mention of who his *father* could possibly be, that’s it (and his Israeli family members live in one of those sections of Israel where bombs of all sorts are detonated on a regular basis.) For us, islamaphobia is academic; for him, Islamaphobia can prevent extinction. Apples and hand grenades, anyone?
” I think that most people who have a per se dislike of rap music do so because they don’t like black people, and I think that most people who have a per se dislike of country do so because they think rednecks are beneath them.”
Wow, really?
A couple points if clarification:
I was not trying to suggest that no women, black or gay people perform or like rock music. My only point was that rock is considered the standard for “real” music, and that rock is primarily about the experiences of straight white males.
As well, i was not trying to imply that dance music was better or more progressive than rock.My point was that this music is no less “authentic” than pop music.
What I also think is worth questioning is the idea of virtuosity and the lack of electronics as being more authentic. However, Pink Floyd, The Beatles, and several other “classic rock” bands used electronics and studio trickery. As for virtuosity, the whole point of punk was its DIY attitude; for me, a lot of electronic dance music seems very DIY.
Another example from the Grammys was the memelet that happened after someone tweeted “who the fuck is Paul McCartney?” The implication was “how dare these kids not know who one of The Beatles is?” never mind that he hasn’t had a charting hit in nearly 25 years.
Amazingly, not everybody likes The Beatles.
Marc2020: good call on the New Romantics. In many ways they were a product of the “anti-rockist” movement in post-punk.
Unfortunately, if you go to just about any music video on YouTube – you’ll see a bunch of people acting elitist about their taste in music. You tend to see comments that range from “people who don’t like this song have no taste in music” to “this band/artist sucks”. And, of course, there are comments that say “those who disliked this video like Justin Bieber” or “this band/artist kicks Justin Bieber’s ass”. Basically, Justin Bieber is the whipping boy of YouTube – and you even see him get mentioned on non-music videos.
DaisyDeadhead:
“Even as middle-class people like you marginalize them.”
Wow, where did that come from? I like quite a bit of reggae, blues and country. However, to suggest that they are marginalized in the same way and for the same reasons as dance music is simply inaccurate. In any case, modern-day country and even reggae is often as pre-packaged as most pop. Taylor Swift is Katy Perry with a twang. Blues has remained “authentic” but a lot of the so-called authenticity is really a product of white middle-class condescension. When the Chicago bluesmen came to England, the English folkies wre dismayed to find that the artists they thought would be performing acoustic blues in overalls were playing electric instruments and wearing tailored suits.
(for that matter, a lot of dance music comes from poor black and gay artists. Few of the disco performers went to college either)
You don’t have to *like* Lady Gaga; truth be told she’s not my favorite. But it’s not right to say that what she does isn’t music.
MaMu: I’ve read Simmons’ comments on Islam, and they go way beyond criticizing their anti-semitism. And the conflation of Islam with Naziism is frankly offensive.
Bttf4000: I’m not a Bieber fan, but the kid does write his own songs and has a decent voice. To my mind he’s no different from David Cassidy.
@MaMu1977 :
I don’t think Gene Simmons said what he said because he’s Jew. I think he’s like many people, he believe that most Muslims are like the Talibans.
“The Talibans”
It’s interesting munkey, you praise the post-punk movement for its anti-rockist ethics, but post-punk is just as dominated by male artists and has just as male a fanbase as the masculine/white rock music you claim it was moving away from.
Hugh: I think it could be argued that post-punk was a tad more integrated in race and gender than mainstream rock. If post-punk is considered big enough to include Two-Tone, The Specials and English Beat were multiracial and The Selecter were both multiracial and gender integrated. Bands as diverse as Talking Heads, Crass and Chumbawamba were gender integrated. It wasn’t *all* white males.
In any case, I wasn’t holding up Post-punk as an ideal but as an alternative view of music with authenticity and integrity.
Wow. It seems like EVERYBODY is more up to date than me. What about opera?
I turned down the opportunity to see Cosi fan Tutte (“Women are Like That”) live. Sure it would have been beautiful music, but I would have raged.
DaisyDeadhead says:
April 9, 2012 at 5:49 pm
“Surprised that the appearance of women and the pressure to look good did not even rate a single mention in your post (when male artists can be fat and even give themselves name like “Biggie”–the last woman to sorta-kinda refer to her size in her stage-name was Mama Cass).”
Oh come on lady, plenty of female hip hop artists have been fat or not conventionally attractive. You need only have a BASIC knowledge of hip hop history to know of Queen Latifah, Missy Elliot or Da Brat as well as a slew of others and these are just a few of the American artists. There are plenty of ‘these’ singers and rappers. Few of us deep into rap culture operate under the impression that female rappers will or have to be conventionally attractive to get anywhere; in fact we as hip hop culture enthusiasts have kind of come to expect them to look unattractive. This is one reason why Nicki Minaj took off like a damn rocket. “OMG a female rapper that is actually ‘pleasant’ to look at (if Harajuku barbies are your thing)”!? She’s got decent mic skills as well!? (lol not really). There might be the pressures to look attractive, to get to a plateau faster or higher than the ‘normals’ that have come before for women, however if you ask me, that’s not so much an disadvantage as it is an OPTION.
I wouldn’t view any of those artists you listed as post-punk except in the strictly temporal sense. But even if we did, I could point out plenty of multiracial and gender integrated punk bands, too. The Germs, Killing Joke and the Dead Kennedys were racially integrated, and Gun Club and The Slits were gender integrated.
I guess I don’t see why you feel that post-punk has authenticity and integrity, but punk music doesn’t. Not surprising really, since “authenticity” is very vague and “integrity” even more so. What exactly is “authentic” music? Authentic to what? Are you arguing that male-dominated rock isn’t authentic to the society it comes from? Seems to me it’s entirely authentic, and that’s the problem, because it’s a male-dominated, male-oriented society. You seem to just be using “authenticity” as a slightly more wordy version of “good”. Which, frankly, is symptomatic of the fuzziness that pervades what you’ve written here. I can’t help but feel that you simply started with your own musical preferences and worked backwards to find a reason why they were politically progressive. I’m still reeling at the idea that dislike of rap is generally caused by racism, frankly.
“the last woman to sorta-kinda refer to her size in her stage-name was Mama Cass”
Did she? I thought “mama” was just generic late-sixties slang for a woman. You would certainly know better than me, though.
Possibly of interest: Celine Dion’s Let’s Talk About Love: an indie rock snob/critic does the hard mental work to figure out that Celine Dion is worth some attention and respect. The book has plenty about how taste gets constructed.
i’D guess that a lot of rap hatred is based on racism, but not anywhere near all dislike of it. I’ve heard scientific opinions that hatred of rap and hatred of opera are similar, and are based on these musical forms being very intense and a bit hard to listen to without your full attention. As well as being very culturally charged?
I’ll be honest this:
Is my favourite rap song, because despite it’s mild problems it’s well written and the rhymes flow.
Having gone over an read Racialicious’. post I have to say that I think the criticism of
Grohl is pretty contrived. It seems to rest entirely on a negative reference to “what goes on in a computer” and the fact that Grohl imagines that he has the ability to distinguish between what is and is not “human” music. Since there is no obvious racial content to either point Racialicious has to supply one by assuming that Grohl was dissing any tech/synth tainted music. Mebbe so but I tend think that if he meant that he would have said so. I also think it more likely he was using the computer as a metaphor for over produced commercial product that lacked heart. The kind of thing that Rahsan Roland Kirk used to call “bubble music”.As for the second point, everyone who holds an opinion about what is or isn’t good music is asserting the same critical ability as Grohl.
Pretty thin stuff. Racialicious seems to sense this, making sure to say that the racial content was probably “unconscious”. That comes across as a fancy way of saying that it doesn’t really matter what Grohl actually meant. No, what matters is the “context” that Racialicious wants to place it in. In this instance, a general criticism of the Grammy’s. The criticism may have merit but trying to make Grohl the poster boy for the failings of the industry that controls the awards show just undermines the point that Racialicious is trying to make.
Yeah this is pretty poor stuff from a good website.
Hugh: I wasn’t arguing that post-punk was more authentic, of that it was authentic while punk and mainstream rock was not. My only point was that it offered an alternative view of what comprised “good” music.
I don’t think Grohl was being consciously racist or sexist, but Simmons sure as hell was.
As for unconventionally attractive women, mainstream rock doesn’t have that great a track record either. And in its defense some of the biggest disco divas were large women.
All I’m really asking is that people question the idea that only one kind of music is progressive, “authentic,” or even good.
I’m not suggesting you have to like something you don’t.
Without getting into specific types of music, I believe that if someone has disliking a particular sort of music as part of their habitual identity (in other words, they complain about it even when they haven’t been overexposed to it), it’s probably some sort of status maintenance.
I don’t know about the whole Grohl comments I mean this is man who has spoken openly about his love of Killing Joke and Gary Numan (whom I think is a genious) two of the main pervayers of so called “fake music” The Foo Fighters even do an amazing cover of Numans Down in the Park so it seems odd that he should complain about it now.
There’s a huge racial and class element to popular music genres! Much of the most beloved and influential music made in the last hundred years was made my people of color, but popularized by white musicians who seized directly on culturally appropriated material. Who was more popular during rock’s advent years, Elvis Presley or Chuck Berry? How many songs from the Beatles’ early records are lifted note-by-note from smaller Motown acts- Anna (Go With Him), Twist and Shout, etc?
These days, I find that pleas for “real” music are often exhortations for audiences to seek out and treasure the original, often-colorful version of popular songs and styles (Berry), rather than the white imitation (Presley). Which can lead to some ridiculous scenes, like a very aged Mississippi John Hurt singing C-H-I-C-K-E-N to a largely affluent, white audience, many of whom were no doubt neglecting younger musicians, be they of color or not.
The author is right, there’s no way to appreciate musical values without connecting them to one’s own social, human values. Which is actually encouraging, in a way- opening one’s perspective to a greater human experience has, among its perks, an appreciation of more, better music. Like the song says, “free your mind, and your ass will follow.”
@monkey: You might want to reel back on the whole “If you don’t like rap music, you’re probably a racist” thing, then, because it’s kind of at odds with the idea that we don’t have to like certain types of music. Yes, I know I’m fixating on that, but fuck me, that’s a pretty huge statement.
As for the idea that there’s only one type of music that’s authentic, I think we’d be well served to just chuck the concept of “authenticity” entirely, not least in relation to music.
This post/discussion reminds me of this piece on how rap and opera, two genres that are widely “hated”, share some commonalities. http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2012/02/16/146997896/why-do-people-hate-rap-and-opera
I thought it was quite interesting and made me think about music from some other angles (though I do like both rap and opera). 🙂
Hugh: I have said nothing that could even imply that anyone is racist for not liking rap music.
What arguably could be racially charged is the notion among some that rap isn’t music at all.
I agree with some of this. I’m a metal fan who goes to a lot of shows and a small minority of bands and performers like to go on about ‘fake’ music (Justin Beiber, anything connected to Simon Cowell) in a way that makes me uncomfortable. I feel like these bands should not feel like they need to point out to their crowds that these artists do not write their own music and they do so they deserve a cookie and everyone in the crowd can feel like they like the ‘real’ music and nobody else does…what crap. It kind of feels like the band does not feel like their show can uplift the crowd enough without resorting to these abjectly stupid tactics. The music world does not divide into ‘real’ music (rock bands) and ‘fake’ music (pop singers and groups), and a few rock bands and rock fans need to remember this.
I do, however, feel like you are being a bit harsh on your progressive college friends, though. Music taste is affected by a lot of factors but to a point people can’t really help what sounds good to their ears. And I think they have the right to have a non-diverse music taste as much as they want, if (and this I also think is very important) they are not aggressive about it to others. No one should act as if they are a better, more fully rounded person than someone else because they think their tastse in music is ‘realer’, or (yes, this too) more diverse than someone elses. I don’t like to see people looking down on others because they like music that in that person’s opinion is contemptable. The music world needs to contain a lot more live and let live.
I think a lot of people object to some pop musicians and pop songs because they do not like the music and (this is the important bit) cannot fathom why this music they consider crap got so popular and they have to hear it in every shop, on their radio stations and on TV constantly. It would also be nice if Simon Cowell and others of his ilk would stop acting like having a perfect voice is all it takes to ‘be a star’ when some of the hugest stars out there have technically horrible voices and this doesn’t matter.
Mori, I completely agree with you on your second paragraph. It seems like even some people who condemn music elitism will go on about how “important” it is to have “a diverse taste in music”. There’s nothing wrong with limited tastes, so long as they’re not trying to push those tastes onto other people. The latter should not be confused with the former.
The same thing can apply to this whole “true fan” nonsense. Yeah, it may be annoying to see someone wearing a tee-shirt of a band that they don’t really listen to – perhaps because you were hoping hoping to be able to converse with said person about said band. In the end, though, it’s their choice of what to wear.
BTW, I think “taste shaming” (making people feel bad for what they like) should be talked about more. It’s just as bad as “slut shaming” and “body shaming”.
othello reminds me there ARE fat women in contemporary music: Queen Latifah, Missy Elliot or Da Brat
And that is a very good point… I have heard never-ending weight loss and diet talk from two out of three of these women. When is the last male rap star to tell you all about his weight loss efforts in great detail? (not saying there isn’t any, but I am saying they do NOT cover these men’s diets in mainstream media, HLN, Entertainment Tonight, etc… as these women’s diets and weight-loss efforts, have been.)
So you actually made my point FOR me. Thank you.
Hugh: Did she? I thought “mama” was just generic late-sixties slang for a woman. You would certainly know better than me, though.
Well, it actually referred to her being in the Mamas and Papas. Thing is, so was Michele Phillips, thin, tall, and sleek, and no one ever referred to Michele as “Mama Michele”…so there was a big difference in the way the two women were regarded. Mama Cass had to be talked into joining, since she was so worried about how big she would look next to Michele. (Michele begged her, since she did not want to be the only woman!) An early memory I have, is a conversation in my school restroom after the Mamas and Papas had been on the Ed Sullivan show, and all the girls were AGHAST that a fat woman was allowed on TV. Really and truly, she might have been the first!
And in fairness, Mama Cass was well-known as a great hippie hostess, and the “Mama” title also referred to her welcoming and nurturing persona (David Crosby called her, notably, “The Gertrude Stein of Laurel Canyon”–and she was apparently one of the main inspirations for Joni Mitchell’s beautiful song, “Ladies of the Canyon”)… but in the American mainstream, the “Mama” title signaled that she was NOT regarded as sexual or attractive.
The “Mama” in 60s-slang came from bikers… and a “motorcycle mama” was a woman who belonged to the entire biker-club, not just one man. She serviced everyone; she was usually fat and usually much older… often her biker-partner had died or was in prison. I think its interesting that they gave her this mothering title, rather than some “slut” title, though. It was actually regarded as a title of respect. (for more, check out Hunter Thompson’s book on the Hells Angels) It was in the 70s that the term “Mama” went mainstream, and Mama Cass likely benefited from that. But it still upset me that Michele never got called Mama, although I think she became an actual mother before Cass did?
By my name, you can guess where I stand.
I think most people making the “real” comment don’t have any racial or political baggage. It’s just that the music they target is generally either very simplistic or mass-produced. The people you see on the scene have next to nothing to do with the actual music, which is likely made to hook people with simple melodies according to what tested better. That music has no soul to them, it’s just a commercial product made by huge music companies that get pretty faces to dance and lip-sync when it’s playing, that’s why they’re called “fake”.
The music these people call true (or tr00) generally comes from the musicians in the group themselves. It’s art, they really come up with the music and the lyrics and they perform it. They often have solos just to demonstrate their proficiency with their instruments. So what they don’t isn’t perfect and not focus group-approved… who cares? It’s raw, it’s real.
It’s like the difference between a summer blockbuster made “by the number” and movies made with a vision from a director who controls what he makes. I’m not saying that people are “wrong” to like commercial mass-produced music, I often go see soulless blockbusters and enjoy it (I call them “excuses to eat popcorn”), but I think there is a valid point to make for the “true” music’s superiority on a certain artistic level.
What I’m trying to say is that we should avoid the idea that white rock music is the “official” music of a particular era. That wasn’t true in the 60s, which was as much about Motown as it was The Beatles, or even the 90s, which was as much about gangsta rap as it was Nirvana (maybe even moreso)
Monkey, I don’t understand where you’re going. Metal originates from blues (with many other influences… including European Classical music)… so what? It doesn’t clash at all with what I’ve been saying. Metalheads, who are very quick to use the “true” argument about music, may not like blues and jazz, but they respect the musicians and their fans. If you go to a metal webforum and ask them what other genres of music they listen to, a lot of people will likely say exactly these genres, and no one will jump on them… but if someone says he likes Britney Spears, then he’s screwed.
I don’t get your comment about comparing the virtuosity of jazz musicians to that of rock/metal musicians. It isn’t a pissing contest here, and no one said that jazz wasn’t “real” music. What was your point?
So the “realness” as I described it is not an illusion.
As to the “official music of an era”… I don’t think that’s connected to “realness”. Disco is associated with the lates 70s, early 80s, and, as you point out, it’s generally not considered “real”. The Boy Bands and Girl Bands will likely be remembered as the official music of the late 90s (and as a kid of the late 90s, let me just say AAAAAAUUUGGHHH!), but who would consider them “real”?
The “official” music of an era tends to be what was popular and lasting in the collective memory. Not that there is an authoritative source that declares what music is the “official” music of any era.
Just a metalhead: my point was that since metal is a combination of styles there’s no such thing as a “pure” form of the music. In a way it’s no more “authentic” than rap.
My point about jazz was that comparing musicianship as opposed to how the record sounds is a slippery slope. You can’t mock or deride other people’s lack of musicianship (and really, Grohl’s punk background kind of made a point that you didn’t have to be a good musician) without acknowledging that, as music, most rock is pretty simple.
My point is that to its fans, disco and other dance music is just as “real” as anything else. If it speaks to someone, it’s real.
As well, face it, there’s a lot of metal that relies on spectacle. Somebody mentioned Iron Maiden earlier, and I’ll be damned if what most people take away from the shows is whatever Eddie is doing on this tour.
Sorry monkey, I was misremembering – I was attributing to you what one of the commenters who agrees with you said. Carry on.
(I will say though you seem to be talking past Just a Metalhead – zhe never made an argument for metal based on its purity of origin and influence from other forms of music, but on the basis of the artistic talent and vision of its performers)
Monkey, who made any comment about “pure” forms of music? To my knowledge, no one, especially not me, so what’s the point of making that point?
Rock is simplistic? I guess that depends on what group you’re talking about. Punk rock, maybe, prog rock… the thought is worth a laugh and little else. Nonetheless, the point is that in the music that people consider “real” or “true”, the band is really coming up with and playing the music. If they suck… at least they suck on their own, they tried and failed, and deserve respect for that. Like Ed Wood for movies, say. He was terrible, but his obstination at making movies despite the lack of means and his enthusiasm earn him respect, many would say more than a certain film director who makes blockbusters by the numbers every year and makes millions out of it (*cough*michaelbay*cough*). Which is the point I was making, some would say it’s about artistic integrity, something commercial music is lacking in.
To disco’s or dance’s fans, it’s just as real you say? Well, to people who love McDonalds’, I guess their food is just as filing as anything else… Doesn’t make it gourmet food nonetheless.
As to relying on spectacle, there is a degree of it, yes. But if that’s part of the whole, then that is not a problem. Most people who listen to Iron Maiden have likely never been to one of their shows, and their music videos are rare on TV. They have attracted their fans not with the spectacle of their shows or the flashiness of their music videos, but with their music, the music that they created and that they play.
Just a metal head: I realize the pure thing was a tangent.
However, you mention prog rock. A lot of critics dismissed prog rock as being not “real” rock because it abandoned the short song structure and its relative simplicity.
Dance music is not the equivalent of McDonalds. Disco had very talented arrangers and singers. The lyrics were not always profound, but they often talked about liberation and even self determination (“I Will Survive”)
It meant a lot to a lot of people, including gay people and women. I don’t think it deserves to be belittled. My argument is that the experience of the fans of this music is as legitimate as that of rock fans, and yet I think it’s marginalized because these fans are women and gay men.
Perhaps Bieber is less defensible, but he’s a teenager writing for other teenagers, and he’s nothing if not sincere.
Your McDonalds analogy does give me a way to make my point, however; Grohl and Simmons dissing pop and dance music is like Pizza Hut slagging McDonalds. The difference between the two is not as big as people think. The notion that rock is “gourmet” is silly. It’s just not that much more complicated than pop.
And with all due respect, I’ve known a few Iron Maiden fans, and the big draw has always been Eddie, whether live or on album covers. And I won’t even tough GWAR or Slipknot.
I’m sorry… what was the point about Kurt Cobain and acoustic guitars getting mixed with femmephobia? o.O
P.S. have you listened to Rhianna’s music? When it’s not vapid (Umbrella) it’s downright problematic (Love the Way you Lie).
P.P.S. I listen to Frank Zappa, and let me tell you… He’s sooooo gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
(He’s very very gay and he likes to be that way, his evening’s not complete without some meat in his seat let’s fade awaaaaaay)
“And with all due respect, I’ve known a few Iron Maiden fans, and the big draw has always been Eddie, whether live or on album covers. And I won’t even tough GWAR or Slipknot.”
I think the fact that Metalhead IS an Iron Maiden fan kind of overrides the fact that you’ve met some when it comes to who’s more qualified to speak about the appeal of Iron Maiden.
I guess, in a way, saying “I don’t like women who act too girly” is sort of like saying “I don’t like black people who act too ghetto”. Yet, at the same time, there is the problem with telling women that they *have* to like feminine stuff – while, simultaneously, denying it to men. I guess you have to find the balance between denouncing the concept of gender roles and acting as if feminine is inherently bad.
Hugh: I’m just going by my own experience. I would say, though, that the difference between the popularity of Iron Maiden and the other New Wave Of British Heavy Metal bands is their album graphics and stage show. To say that Eddie (or GWAR or Slipknot’s) antics aren’t part of their appeal is ridiculous. (and consider what band started this whole conversation; KISS didn’t do so well without the makeup, did they?)
Super glucose: for all of Cobain’s progressive politics (and daring lyrics), his music wasnt very *interesting.* As more than one critic pointed out, “Smells Like Teen Spirit” sounds a lot like Boston’s “More Than A Feeling”.
Yes, I’ve heard Rihanna and I’m not impressed. However, she’s no less valid an artist than Nickelback.
monkey: Right, I’m just saying that your experience may not be relevant, being on the outside of the community you’re discussing.
Really though, you seem to be asking people not to judge the music you don’t like while feeling free to dish on the music they like. On the one hand, hey, all music is valid so can’t we just like what we like, but on the other hand, damn, that music over there isn’t interesting/as important as its made out to be by people who I’ve met/politically progressive.
If you really feel that we just shouldn’t judge other people’s tastes, I don’t understand why you’re engaging on the subject of certain types of music.
If you’re willing to see post-punk as ethnically and gender nuanced, you shouldn’t be describing indy rock as “white music”.
And so on and so on.
Really, this whole post is a mess and your continued arguments are not clarifying it largely because you don’t seem to be able to abandon the critical ethos you are asking other people to resile from.
I’m sure we can all agree that there is no such thing as the “official music of an era” or “pure music”. Maybe you should have just stuck to that point?
Hugh: by “official” music I meant the music that, for example, gets played when you want to evoke a certain era. The cliche is that the 60s can be summed up with the troika of Dylan, The Beatles and the Stones. A few Motown or Stax records might be thrown in for variety, but hey, that’s “merely” pop. Hell, even when they talk about the civil rights era, the music used is We Shall Overcome or Blowin In The Wind. I was amazed to see a documentary which had a freedom rider doing a chant to the tune of Land Of 1000 Dances.
The reason it matters whether or not Nirvana is musically interesting is because every music critic takes it as a given that it “changed everything.” This is a big assumption that requires you to ignore a lot of sonically innovative dance and rap music.
Monkey, about prog rock, be careful there. Some rock fans claim it’s not “real rock”… but they don’t say it’s not “real music”. That’s quite a big difference. If you put jazz music on and tell people that it’s metal, they’re going to say it’s not metal, they won’t say it’s not music.
Quite frankly, I think you are the one making a political judgment here, not people who mock disco or dance. Most of them do not like those types of music because they are way too commercial, made to sell and created by the number by producers in the backroom who make them like in a factory. You move to defend those types of music because you see some “liberating” lyrical themes in theme that may appeal to gay men and women. The way I see it, the mockery these kinds of music often get is not political but based on artistic criteria, but your defense of them seems to be mostly, if not only, based on political considerations. That you defend them for political reasons doesn’t mean that the people who criticize them must do so for political reasons also.
As to the McDonalds’ analogy, I think you ignore the artistic integrity facet. A better comparison would be between an homemade meal consisting of steak bought on a farmer’s market with homemade buns, personalized homegrown condiments and homemade fries versus a McDonalds’ Big Mac and Fries. That’s a much better comparison. The homemade meal has a lot of thought and effort into it by the one who makes it, and it may reveal his personality, the McDo’s meal is just mass-produced food cooked by people who do it for a living but who don’t care about the result as long as they keep their jobs and wages. Even if both can be superficially summed up as the same thing: a popular “fast food” meal, hamburger and fries.
I’m not a big Iron Maiden fan (I do have a few of their albums, and I like “Brave New World” the best), but I never met any of them who focused only or primarily on Eddie. Eddie is merely a mascot. You don’t go to an hockey game hoping to spot the local team’s mascot, you go for the game. Do you really think the people who listen to Iron Maiden listen to it because of Eddie? Why would they listen to the music if that was the case? They’d just look at the album covers and go to shows.
I think some of the comments here are very Americano-centric. I don’t know if it’s intentional or not, but the racial issues really don’t translate well. I mean, not liking rap because you hate black people? My first experiences with ‘rap’ were of guys of unknown ethnicity interrupting pop songs in order to talk all over them. My first experiences with actual rap tracks were white guys. I admit I like white rap a lot more than black rap, mainly because a lot of the old-school Danish rap is considerably more blues inspired and intentionally humorous, which I prefer over gansta any day. But I still wasn’t a rap fan even then, despite Danish rap in the 90s being an almost exclusively white genre.
I don’t know if you have anything like that in the USA, but here in Sweden we have a TV show called “så mycket bättre” (so much better). They interview popular singers and then let them do cover versions of each other songs. The results can be pretty interesting…
Here’s euro-disco singer E-type with “calling your name”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6BvykQwVsA
And here’s folk singer Michael Wiehe’s version of the same song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYdXeG1-zjY
An original song, “flickan och kråkan”, by Michael Wiehe:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC3EszN3Uuo&feature=related
Hiphoper Timbuktu covers it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn5hcn_KWT4
AB says:
April 11, 2012 at 10:45 am
“I admit I like white rap a lot more than black rap”.
I am going to assume that your ‘first experiences with rap’ were most likely your last… This doesn’t strike you as ‘problematic’? Do you really think you have a sufficient amount of knowledge of the Danish rap scene to draw such conclusions? I mean come on you’ve literally equated black rap with “gangsta” (can’t believe you even spelled it that way…) and not bues inspired or intentionally humorous despite black rappers pioneering almost every theme, style and motif within the genre. You have limited experiences, so I wouldn’t say much about it if I were you.
Anyway is there anybody else whom isn’t from a by-gone era of music domination that has an opinion of contemporary rap music? I hate to incorporate this lexis into my conversation but this seems like the same intellectual property ‘shaming’ that many people from Simmons background do. They think their IP’s are superior for x number of reasons, what I notice is that people predominantly dislike rap music because it’s heralded by “those people”, to the point when you get really talented white MC’s whom get seen as faux-black people. Despite rap music being a genre of MUSIC and not race. I mean look at rock, rock is one of the most racially monotonous scenes in music but nope, won’t talk about that. Shit, I remember when Eminem tackled this ages ago when he wrote “the way I am”:
…
And pigeon holdin’ to some poppy sensations
and copy rotation at Rock ‘N’ Roll stations
And I just do not have the patience
To deal with this cocky Caucasians
Who think I’m some wigga who just tries to be black
Cause I talk with an accent and grab on my balls
So they always keep asking the same fucking questions
What school did I go to?
What hood I grew up in?
The why? The who, what?
When and where and the how?
Till I’m grabbing my hair and I’m tearing it out
Cause they drivin’ me crazy, I can’t take it
…
superglucose: He’s very very gay and he likes to be that way, his evening’s not complete without some meat in his seat let’s fade awaaaaaay
The poodle bites! The poodle chews it! …
@AB:
In other European countries (e.g. Germany, France), rap is very strongly associated with immigrant populations, so hello, racial issues.
Just a metal head: well, you contrasted McDonald’s with gourmet food, and I took it from that.
I grew up in the 70s, and there was definitely a homophobIc aspect to the way disco was perceived. In many cases the slurs were blatant and they still are. Look at Bieber.
As well, “realness” of music is often measured in terms of “hardness.” you really can’t see anything a bit phallocentric about that?
Your argument that it has to do with the production techniques rings hollow to me, because the sophisticated production of The Beatles and Pink Floyd were praised to the rafters.
A lot of disco and dance music artists – Barry White, New Order, Pet Shop Boys – were not simply thrown together to make money. Going back further, the girl group pop of Phil Spector and others was truly heartfelt in spite of their slickness.
As well, while by-the-numbers rock like Nickelback is ridiculed, there’s nowhere near the amount of vicious slurs given to Justin Bieber.
But really, the average rock band is in many ways just as formulaic as any dance music. I mean seriously, the one time KISS took off their makeup they essentially bombed.
I think Nobuo Uematsu is a million times better than One Direction.
1) They don’t make music, he does
2) He’s just that awesome, he’s made Final Fantasy (and thus Square) reknown for their music through him mostly. One Direction, N’Sync, Back Street Boys and New Kids on The Block…well they made posters for female tweens and teens to fantasm on. No music to speak of.
And some will say that videogame music isn’t real music (I’ll concede that MIDI doesn’t use real instruments, and that was the physical storage limitation of 8 bit, 16 bit and some forms of 32 bit. This is no longer the case in the era of 512 bit (Xbox+PS3), music size is no longer a limitation worth even mentioning). I’ll say that Boys Band and Girls Band music is also not real music…and weirdly enough, both Boy and Girl band appeal majority to female fans. Male fans of Spice Girls would get gay-shamed…male fans of any boys band would also get gay-shamed.
Monkey: I think KISS is not as representative of rock or heavy metal as you think it is.
KISS are widely disdained or ignored even among rock and metal fans. While KISS’ music is metal/rock, KISS fandom is sort of its own thing.
And metalhead, it’s going to seem a bit schizophrenic that I’m now arguing in support of Monkey, but I think you’re massively overestimating the non-commercial nature of metal.
Bands like Metallica and KISS and so on are hugely commercially successful. Sure, they probably weren’t formed with the sole intent of making a quick buck, but few pop/disco acts were, either. The idea that metal is all authentic craftsmanship is a huge oversimplification. I don’t think any genre of music, or even any musician, has a lock on commercialism or artistic drive. Few musicians see their work as simply a way to make money, but few are entirely indifferent to commercial success either. Most are a combination of the two, usually wavering in one direction or another during the course of their careers.
And it’s worth noting that “We only care about the music, man” is as much a marketing technique as anything else. Some consumers are most effectively induced to consume by being told they’re not just consumers.
Do you consider any reference to “hardness” to be “phallocentric” ? If not, why do make that association in this context and not in others?
Hugh: that’s pretty much what I was trying to say from the beginning. 🙂 I actually *like* hard rock and metal. However, I think metal is just as commercialized as any other genre. It’s not just KISS: Manowar, Iron Maiden, GWAR, Slipknot – none of these guys just go out there in denim and t-shirts.
And like you said, pop is not always just about money.I don’t think Bieber, for example, started out just to become famous.
WD Reeves: I have no idea whether “hardness” is always phallocentric; however, it’s not a
stretch to say that it applies to the more macho rock bands, or even some rap/electronica bands. I remember someone arguing that The Prodigy was better than The Spice Girls because The Spice Girls sang about “love and crap like that” and Prodigy was “hard as fuck.”
The Spice Girls not writing their own songs didn’t come into the discussion.
Schala says:
April 11, 2012 at 10:42 pm
“Nobuo Uematsu”
I listen to his stuff as well, glad someone else does.
Schala says:
April 11, 2012 at 10:42 pm
“male fans of any boys band would also get gay-shamed”.
Not entirely true, it was perfectly ok for dudes to listen to Boyz 2 Men, 112 and many black RNB “boy bands” and not get called gay or what have you. Rap groups are essentially boy bands and yet nobody would call the Roots or Slaughterhouse listeners gay. Shit even D12 made a damn song called “My band” parodying the whole thing. I’m more surprised why rap groups never get called “boy bands” overwhelming masculinitity makes them gay shame proof or something?
“And like you said, pop is not always just about money.I don’t think Bieber, for example, started out just to become famous.”
The people who sign contracts with him have him become an object of looks and fantasm, His music is not something I could even say I know, but everyone’s seen his pictures.
Here we have a show called Star Academy. We take virtual nobodies who’ve barely ever even tried to do anything musical-wise (they probably didn’t have a band and go around bars for a pittance, or practice in a garage for years with no professional contract in sight). Then one of the biggest media conglomerate of the province (Quebecor Media, Videotron) makes them stars, because in half the provincial TV stations, half the magazines, half the ratio stations, half the newspaper, they have huge publicity, every detail about their personal life published. And the winner of the show gets a disc contract which is guaranteed to sell at least well enough because of the huge publicity REGARDLESS OF THE TALENT IN THE SINGER. They MAKE a star, and you accept him or her, because it’s force-fed to you from every damn source.
Elvis Gratton III movie warned about that in a sarcastic way (themedia telling the consumer what they should/will consume as far as music and others)..now they do it for real. Convergence…
Actually – Iron Maiden really does go out there in jeans and T-Shirts. While Manowar doesn’t do the fuzzy loincloths anymore, they do wear a lot of leather, but no facepaint. However, the popularity of leather among metal bands has less to do with KISS (who will be the first to tell you they’re hard rock, not metal), and more to do with Judas Priest, which adopted the leather look because, well, Rob Halford (the band’s lead singer) is gay, went to a leather bar (or bars), and thought the look would work for the band.
(Now, Death Metal, on the other hand, is heavy on face-paint, but not the KISS kabuki-style stuff. They do more corpsepaint.)
The thing about Halford, though, is that he was in the closer for most of his time with the band. What’s amazing is how many people were surprised when he did come out, because it was one of the worst-kept secrets in rock!
@Monkey that’s an interesting choice of comparison as I generally despise both of those artists’s music XD Also I wasn’t really defending Nirvana I was just mostly confused how you managed to get from “uses acoustic guitars and cellos” to “is femmephobic” or “has progressive politics.”
I mean Frank Zappa had some songs that consisted *entirely* of synthesizers and his politics were beyond progressive, entering the range of downright radical.
What do you mean when you use the word “pop”? Does “pop” mean “commercial music” in American English? Don’t you have the term “indie pop” over there? I’m confused…
“What do you mean when you use the word “pop”? Does “pop” mean “commercial music” in American English? Don’t you have the term “indie pop” over there? I’m confused…”
Pop is top 40 music that passes almost in loop on radio stations.
I’d agree that the example you cite is Phallocentric. Other uses: hard rock, hard core, so much. Some have gone so far as to assert that the driving beat of both rock and much dance music is phallocentric. I understand why this claim might be made but I disagree.
“Pop” is generally used to refer to a softer-than-rock-but-still-contains-electric-instruments style of music – regardless of whether it actually is popular or not.
Pop actually does mean popular music. Either it’s a style of music that’s so generic it’s virtually universally liked or it’s popular because that’s what’s in vogue.
Yeah, I know that “pop” is short for “popular” – but the meaning to “pop music” has shifted during the years. We generally don’t consider, say, Metallica to be “pop music” – but, technically, Metallica is a very popular band. So “pop music” tends to refer more to the style than whether or not it actually is popular.
Black Sabbath, at least during their classic era, always played in what looked like street clothes (the odd leather jacket aside). Part of what I dislike about their current incarnation is all the KISS style pomp that their stage show involves.
Everyone I know and every music critic I’ve ever read use the word as bttf44444 does… There are tons of bands referred to as “pop” who plays stuff that’s never gonna go in loops on the radio and never are gonna be rich. There are styles of pop that never were particularly popular.
Yeah, you don’t have to be popular to play pop music any more than you have to be on an independent label to play indy music.
“Yeah, I know that “pop” is short for “popular” – but the meaning to “pop music” has shifted during the years. We generally don’t consider, say, Metallica to be “pop music” – but, technically, Metallica is a very popular band. So “pop music” tends to refer more to the style than whether or not it actually is popular.”
Then call it dance music.
“Then call it dance music.”
Not the same thing.
In North America, pop music, the kind that goes in top 40s and all, is for the great majority dance music. Blues and rock and metal don’t have much radio airtime. Punk has none because it’s “too hard”, and ‘harder’ styles of metal also would get censored and not asked for. Korn would never pass on radio for example. Nor would Manowar.
Much of what passes on radio, if not the entirety nowadays, is dance music, the spiritual successor to disco, tu tiss tu tiss tu tiss tu tiss… Britney Spears and company singing the same refrain for 5 minutes is considered music, dance music.
Some of these classifications are pretty strange. Ballet, Viennese Waltz, and Salsa are all forms of dance music which are apparently not considered to be Dance Music (TM) according to music store classification schemes. Then there’s “Urban Music” (so anything not filed under the “Urban” music category was written on farms or in the Suburbs?). And don’t even get me started on “World” music :).
“Ballet, Viennese Waltz, and Salsa are all forms of dance music which are apparently not considered to be Dance Music (TM) ”
Classical or ballroom music.
Though SOME dance music are good for it. Mambo Number 5 is a mambo for example. But you try dancing Cha-cha on The Summer is Magic.
@0thello says:
Why? Because rap is so awesome that anyone who don’t like it must be ignorant, or because America is the only real country in the world so any experiences outside of it must be nonexistant? Seriously, at no point did I say anything about only having listened to rap once, just that my first experiences with it (making up the foundation of what I associate with the genre) was from white guys. And I didn’t like it much then either.
Hey, how about I start to assume right the fuck out of nowhere that you’re currently currently selling illegal drugs to minors? Doesn’t that strike you as more problematic? You can’t just make up an argument (me having only listened to rap once), and then ignore everything in the post in favour of refuting an argument you yourself made up. Or rather, you can, but don’t expect me to take you seriously. I might not be the leading expert on Danish rap here on this site, but I bet I’m at least in the top 5 (in that I can name a two-figured number of Danish rappers off the top of my head, which I doubt most other people here can), so if there’s any conclusions to draw about Danish rap, chances are I’m among the most qualified to draw them.
Gangsta is the style I’ve seen fewest white people engage in (as rappers, not listeners), and by the time rap became popular among minorities here, the era of self-irony and blues was long gone. When I look at the rap I like, it’s more often done by white people. That’s not because I have a problem with black people, it’s because white people (or more correctly, white guys) are more likely to make (or get popular with) rap in a style which annoys me less.
And with you selling drugs to children, I wouldn’t try to gain the moral high-ground if I were you. See, I can make hyperbolic arguments too! Seriously, just because the number of rap tracks I’ve heard probably only number in the hundreds, instead of in the thousands, it doesn’t mean I’m unqualified to talk about what kind of music I like, and make the qualified assertion that, given that I formed my first (negative) opinions on it before knowing about the performers’ race, and my second (again, mostly negative) opinions based on listening to white rappers without knowing that the genre was supposed to be primarily black, it probably isn’t because I’m a racist.
I hate this idea that you aren’t allowed to dislike something until you’ve literally wasted hundreds of hours studying it. I’ve tried liking extreme metal, but despite trying to listen to more of it, I still haven’t gotten any further than tolerating Finntroll and melodic death metal. And even there, I mostly find the growling to be a disturbing element detracting from the music (much like with rapping). Listening to more of the same thing didn’t change anything, it just confirmed my existing taste.
Re: “white rap” vs. “black rap”: http://www.good.is/post/america-is-dying-slowly-talking-about-hip-hop-after-trayvon-martin/
Hey, it’s like that time Schala assumed I was full of irrational hate and a distrust for science because I said I was religious and completely disregarded why I brought up religion to begin with. Funny how those kinds of arguments wind up working out.
Oh wait, you weren’t being serious here.
@Schala:
Simple solution to that problem: Sit them down and have them listen to some VGO or maybe Play! (though I’m not as familiar with Play!, admittedly). You might want to look up F-Zero (Big Blue) or One Winged Angel from their PAX East 2012 set if you don’t have any of their MP3s handy (they were the highlights of the set).
@othello:
To be fair, I’ve never heard anyone refer to rap groups as “boy bands”. The term doesn’t merely refer to a group composed entirely of male performers (or an all-male group of RNB performers), but to a specific subgenre and formulation of music. Everything about them is very much a by the numbers specific corporate formulation, right down to the band make up, which requires a group of conventionally attractive young men who can be fit into a specific set of archetypes. New Kids on the Block, the Backstreet Boys, and N*SYNC are the traditional examples of the subgenre in action.
The majority of the varieties of music I like is performed predominately by white guys. The other side of that is that it’s not that I dislike music performed by not-white and/or not-guys, but rather that the genres I like have predominately white male artists. I had a rap phase as a teenager (particularly Snoop Dogg), but it was just a stop on the trip from what I listened to as a kid (late 80s country) to what I listen to now.
My current iPod playlist contains the following bands, in no particular order: Marilyn Manson (esp. Antichrist Superstar->Golden Age of Grotesque), Nine Inch Nails (anything prior to With Teeth), Fields of the Nephilim, Korn, Metallica, Bauhaus, Ministry, Jonathan Coulton, VGO, Jack Off Jill (esp Clear Hearts, Grey Flowers), Inkubus Sukkubus, Type O Negative (esp October Rust and World Coming Down), and a handful of Siouxsie and the Banshees songs (Cities in Dust, for example), and a one man metal project out of CA that did an entire album of H.P. Lovecraft’s poetry put to music and a 49 track 3-CD set arguably about ideological conflict.
Not the most racially diverse group you can imagine (except VGO which is fairly diverse in and of themselves, if slanting asian), and there are what, four groups with significant female members (JOJ was all female for most of it’s history, Siouxsie Sioux and Candia as lead singers, and VGO has several women in their ranks). That’s from my current playlist, but it’s semi-representative of my taste.
I was going to leave a long reply to AB dissecting that nonsense but THIS speaks for itself about the kind of person I’m choosing to not talk to.
“That’s not because I have a problem with black people, it’s because white people (or more correctly, white guys) are more likely to make (or get popular with) rap in a style which annoys me less”.
Wow… Un-fuckin-believable.
“I hate this idea that you aren’t allowed to dislike something until you’ve literally wasted hundreds of hours studying it”.
I’m sure I’m allowed to dislike you without wasting hundreds of hours studying ‘it’.
Your hip hop knowledge is weak, you say things that I feel are racist. But what the hell ever. You go on with your bad self.