Strictly Moderated: My False Rape Accusation

[Trigger warning: discussion of rape and false rape accusations.]

[Troll warning: this is going to attract the kind of people who really, really like talking about false rape accusations. Comments will be STRICTLY MODERATED.]

I picked my first college based on gender ratio. I figured with two girls for every one guy, even a denim-clad mid-90s mullet-having freckle-faced dork like me stood a chance of losing my virginity. In retrospect, this was pretty stupid, but, well… I was young and horny.

I wasn’t especially well-liked at this college; I kept to myself a lot and my adolescent habits were kind of alienating and unlikable. Also, this was a former women’s college that had only gone co-ed recently, so the campus was thick with radical feminists still in the stage Bitch magazine once called “freshly-hatched gynocratic rage”. For a long time, I didn’t know there was such a thing as sex-positive feminism, as the feminism I encountered at college was emphatically sex-negative.

I did make a friend, though, a girl we’ll call Maureen. She was a crabby punk/goth girl who was supposed to be taking a lot of psychiatric meds, but didn’t. She had wild mood swings and a penchant for drama, but she was willing to hang out with me and she also liked Highlander: The Series. (Again, mid-90s. Don’t judge me.)

Sure enough, after a while I got a girlfriend. Met her on Usenet (mid-90s!) and flew down to visit her over winter break. Lost the living HELL out of my virginity, naturally. On my return to college, I happily told my friend Maureen my personal good news.

More or less instantly, Maureen stopped hanging out with me. It wasn’t an announcement or anything, she just wasn’t ever available and didn’t eat at my table any more. True to teenaged-geekboy form, I didn’t fully pick up on this or attach too much significance to it. Non-explicit social cues: not my forte in 1996.

I did gradually notice, however, that everyone else seemed to hate me now. The trash piled in front of my dorm room door was a clue. The fact that nobody on campus would talk to me, outside of the outcast Red Dwarf fans I usually ate with, that eventually became noticeable. People made obscure comments in class discussion that seemed pointed at me, but that didn’t make any sense. Eventually, when I applied to room in a certain dorm and the entire dorm had a meeting where they informed me that I was not welcome there, but wouldn’t say why, I got it. The clue, of course, was that Maureen was at that meeting, shuddering theatrically and not looking at me, with other students gripping her shoulders supportively.

I asked around a bit and finally heard the truth: Maureen had spread the word around campus that I’d raped her.

This wasn’t a case of a gray area or he-said/she-said, this wasn’t implied consent or drunken mistake. I’d never had any kind of sex with her or even kissed her. This was something she just plain made up to hurt me. Eventually, I figured out that she’d been hoping to seduce me, and was upset that someone else had beaten her to the punch.

The worst part was that there was nothing I could do, no defense I could mount. Had she lodged this accusation through official channels, there might have been some question of evidence or credibility. The fact that we’d never had sex might have mattered, or the fact that she was severely unstable and histrionic. There were, however, no official channels, no evidence. Just a whisper campaign that would have made Karl Rove proud.

I dropped out of college not long after that. Nothing ever happens just for one reason, but Maureen’s accusation was a major factor in my decision. The place had become unlivable for me.

Now, here’s where it gets tricky in terms of my thinking. That was fifteen years and a lot of learning ago. Problem is, there’s a pretty well-established cognitive bias in human brains: we privilege our personal experience above all other forms of evidence, despite our personal experience having, by definition, questionable methodology and a sample size of one.

So, in my personal experience, 100% of rape accusations are false.*

Every time I hear about some questionable rape case, there’s part of my brain going “Oh, it’s probably bullshit. In my experience, that’s usually how it goes.” Which is, of course, wildly and provably wrong. I have to actively weight evidence differently just to overcome my own bias, the way a driver in a car that pulls to the right will hold the wheel ten degrees left just to stay in their lane.

And right now, some of you reading this are falling prey to an even more powerful cognitive flaw: confirmation bias. Some of you, at this moment, are massively overvaluing my experience because it confirms what you want to believe, that false rape accusations are the norm. Quick test: if you read about how I had to drop out of college because of lies, ostracism, and hatred, and that gave you a warm, positive feeling of being right? You’re that guy. Don’t be that guy.

Others of you are doing the same thing in reverse, scrambling to dismiss my experience because it doesn’t fit your worldview, though I suspect there aren’t as many in that camp. Even the most radical feminists I’ve known wouldn’t put the false-accusation count much below 3%, which I think is low, but still allows room for millions of stories like mine.

What’s interesting, of course, is that my story would never show up in those statistics, because there was no reported rape. The cops never heard about it, campus authorities never heard about it, nobody who would have to come to an informed judgment on the subject was ever informed. It was all off the record, on the QT, and strictly hush-hush. That’s the only way it could have worked as well as it did.

When I realized that, of course, it changed my mental math again. The people who file police reports and official complaints and court charges about rape, they’re doing something fundamentally different than what Maureen did. They’re going on the record, they’re opening themselves up to questions of evidence, to the accusations and smears that too often are aimed at those who openly talk about being raped. Maureen never did that; she risked nothing. Had she had to offer any kind of evidence for her lie, she’d never have tried it.

In the end, I’m not sure my story has any larger lesson to teach. It was awful, it was a long time ago, and it’s statistically meaningless. It’s not a definitive example of anything, just a sad little anecdote about some unhappy, petty people. I share it partly because I think how people react to it is revealing, but much more because it’s part of how I got where I am. Having to deal with it, personally and emotionally and intellectually, was a serious part of the mental journey that led to me posting in a place like this.

I suppose we all have to attach our own significance to things, and people can usually do that for themselves. All I can say for sure is that once, long ago and far away, a badly unstable girl tried to punish me for not sleeping with her by saying that I’d raped her. So, yeah. That happened.

*Someday, some asshole may want to discredit or smear me for some reason. The sentence “In my personal experience, 100% of rape accusations are false” is my personal gift to that asshole. I figure the poor assholes need the occasional pity quote; it’s not like they can get by on their own competence.

About noahbrand

Noah Brand is a mysterious figure with a very nice hat.
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92 Responses to Strictly Moderated: My False Rape Accusation

  1. Eden says:

    I’d be careful describing anyone as “histrionic” – it’s a pretty woman-negative word, with roots in “hysteria” which only women could be locked away for. Also the blaming of mental illness doesn’t sit well either. But, you know.

    I agree with the problem of cognitive biases. Mostly I see these being played out where a guy knew of a friend of a relative somewhere who was falsely accused of rape, and because that’s a situation the guy could place himself (having already determined he is not, and never will be, a rapist) he decides all rape accusations are false. Rarely do I hear the opposite “all rape accusations are true” – but I have heard it. Personally, I tend to go with the “most likely true, tread cautiously” side of things.

    I could say in my experience 66% of rapes are never spoken of because they are too painful to contemplate and 33% are mentioned to very trusted people and never cause the rapist any repercussions at all. But fortunately I have proof, thanks to very brave people, that those stats are wrong.

  2. noahbrand says:

    @Eden, I understand your concern about the word histrionic; it’s technically gender-neutral but does tend to get applied in a gendered way, doesn’t it? Thing is, it’s also really a thing. Some people really are drama llamas; I’ve known my share and I’m sure you have too.

    And yeah, it’s too easy to generalize from one’s own experience, and so tempting. It creates a pleasing sense that one is, in some sense, the center of the universe. Figuring out that things aren’t all about you… that’s harder, but always worth doing, I think we can agree.

  3. typhonblue says:

    I’m sorry that happened to you. 😦 I hope it didn’t cause you any lasting harm.

    I had something similar but much more minor happen to me.

  4. noahbrand says:

    @typhon, if it’d be helpful for you to talk about your experience, a strictly-moderated comment thread on here is probably a relatively safe space, as they go. If not, of course, it’s entirely your own business.

  5. Hi. Thanks for writing that post, especially the “don’t be that guy” bit. I guess this is more about what people’s reactions will be rather than an actual comment about false rape accusations, though… What can we actually do about this? I get a fairly extreme reaction when people talk about false rape accusations, because what’s usually brought up makes absolutely no sense in the context of the situation: she was wearing this, she acted that way, the two of them were holding hands the next day therefore she’s a callous, life-destroying bitch who deserves to be locked up etc etc.

    I react strongly because I’m TERRIFIED. I don’t want to hear that I live in a world where women aren’t safe or even respected. But reading your post (plus an experience another man told me about recently) makes me think men are terrified too.

    The mental illness thing: To be honest, I always thought that a woman who makes rape accusations that are totally false MUST have some sort of illness. Why else would you put someone else (not to mention yourself) through something like that? This may also be reinforced by the fact that your experience sounds very familiar to the experience I heard from someone else. We’re talking about a situation where someone is either delusional or so depressed that they really think that what they’re doing to the other person is comparable to how they feel, therefore it’s OK. Of course, it’s NOT OK, but how do we address this? I know that I would want to know all of the facts before I formed an opinion, but not everyone will… (Just want to make this clear, speaking as someone with a mental health problem, I am in no way suggesting that if you suffer from a mental illness you’re more likely to do something like this. I’d be horrified if anybody assumed that about me).

  6. Brian says:

    It’s a shame that when men are falsely accused of rape, there’s really no way to stop the accusation that doesn’t involve the accuser.

    The accuser might, eventually, feel guilty and forgive you*, or she might make the tactical error of reporting the rape to the police. But since there’s no way to prove you didn’t rape someone without the kind of detailed examination of the evidence you get in court it’s a pretty insidious kind of rumor to spread.

    That said, I want to point out while that it’s absolutely a cruel move to falsely accuse someone of rape, most of the other rumors you could spread about someone are also cruel moves. So I’m still not sure I understand the MRA complaint here.

    *:Not you specifically, dmb. I realize you haven’t seen that woman in a very long time.

    Moderator Note: Sexist slurs removed.

  7. 2ndnin says:

    Whether or not a rape occurred our justice and social systems punish the accused in advance. The DSK case recently shows this, naming the accused caused him to lose his job and a lot (lol) of respect globally. Worse is that there is a presumed validity to complaints and people like Jill Valenti (sp?) have come out publically for reversing the burden of proof.

    I think this is on large part why people fear accusation. Giving both accused and accuser anonymity and keeping the burden of proof (which unfortunately will keep prosecutions low) on the accuser resolves at least some of these worries. A purely social accusation though is harder to remove the worries, I can’t think of anyway you could have defended against a fake social rape.

  8. AlekNovy says:

    Thanks for the story. It made for interesting reading.

  9. tenya says:

    There is always a quiet, but still persistent, voice in my head whenever I start to see things about how every statement that a rape has occurred should be believed, because yes, being raped is arguably worse than the accusation thereof, even if the latter can be life destroying. Because I have known a few. Tiny, really, but a few. One was a case of parental over-protection, despite knowing the young woman in question and her statement was that it was consensual and “my parents are being assholes” (of which her non-cooperation in the “it was rape” narrative was what ultimately led to the issue being no more than angry words).
    The other was a situation where I do believe that the woman in question believed she was raped, but she was very unstable herself and the circumstances she described just could not have taken place. Akin to saying that it occurred on the stage during a high school graduation and the crowd cheered. And with that, I do think that she did believe it and it was extremely upsetting to her, but whether I think it happened? No, I don’t.
    And I think of that every time I hear about “false accusations are not an issue.” (not that anyone here said that!) Not because I think most victims are lying, or because one or the other side are saints 100% of the time, but because the world and people are large enough to have a margin of severely unwell, or assholes, or pushed into it for extraneous reasons. This doesn’t diminish the fact that rape is a horrendous experience that far too many people experience. But it should give a little pause before rallying. To which, I am sorry that that happened to you and hope your life hasn’t been too damaged from it.

  10. Laura says:

    “we privilege our personal experience above all other forms of evidence, despite our personal experience having, by definition, questionable methodology and a sample size of one.

    So, in my personal experience, 100% of rape accusations are false.*”

    Wow, you said a mouthful right there.

    My tendency is to back off when I realize I’ve only heard one side, and actually dive in on the other side when the one side being heard is assumed to be true. Especially when there is no evidence offered at all. Maybe that’s the Libra in me, ha ha. But it would have been good if just one (1) person had come to you and said Maureen is saying these things, is it true?

    This is the kind of thing, though, that makes me really impatient with rape accusers coming out years after the fact and making their accusations in the press. I understand that there may have been reasons why they did not go to the police. But the accused is supposed to have the right to face his accuser and defend himself, and if you don’t go to the police then they don’t get that. It seems too cold-hearted to say “put up or shut up” in a lot of cases but that is what I want to do.

  11. Jared says:

    @Brian
    “That said, I want to point out while that it’s absolutely a dick move to falsely accuse someone of rape, most of the other rumors you could spread about someone are also dick moves. So I’m still not sure I understand the MRA complaint here.”

    Generally the MRA complaint is about those which actualy go to the police. Additionally, are you aware of any slander with a similar negative stigma that wouldn’t cause similar social ostracism but could be crediblly be made?

    @ Tenya
    “being raped is arguably worse than the accusation thereof, even if the latter can be life destroying”

    Why you got to go their? You get that the latter can be “life destroying” and, I’d guess you get that the former is not always life destroying. As such as you said whether or not rape is worse is “arguable”. This is much (I think) because it will depend on the experience of the individual survivor. Is it an argument really worth bringing up though? Both crimes carry with them the chance (liklihood) of destroying a life, can’t we just leave it at that?

    @Noah, I like your point on perspective, I’ll be keeping it in mind and encourage others to do likewise.

  12. Jared says:

    Err “wouldn’t cause similar ” should really be “would cause similar”

    On reflection I’d put being a paedophille or gay, but those are still on the MRA radar

    (disclaimer, I’m not an MRA)

  13. rezam says:

    re: Brian @ 5:32

    “The accuser might, eventually, feel guilty and forgive you*, ….”
    I’m a little fuzzy today, so could someone help me out?
    Isn’t the accuser a false accuser? The line just above is the opening line – “when men are falsely accused of rape … involve the accuser.”
    The asterisk does not provide clarification.
    This phrase seems to be saying ” The [false] accuser might, eventually, feel guilty and forgive you*,”
    ummmm
    This seems to be a bit like line from the Harpyness post which Sagredo noticed, referring to Kieu Becker as the victim.
    If the accuser is a false accuser, then by what moral calculus does she extend forgiveness to the falsely accused?
    Either this is a mistake, or I am missing something? Nah, I don’t think I am missing something.

  14. Laura says:

    Rezam, I saw that too and thought it must be one hell of a typo. If not it does need clarification.

  15. Laura says:

    Maybe it was supposed to be:

    “The accuser might, eventually, feel guilty and ask for forgiveness”? Hope that’s it.

  16. Additionally, are you aware of any slander with a similar negative stigma that wouldn’t cause similar social ostracism but could be crediblly be made?

    I base this largely on anecdata but it seems like most rapists aren’t socially ostracized. If someone rapes via coercion (which is how most rapists operate – there are statistics on this), hir peers likely won’t even associate the word “rape” with what’s happening*. And if the victim calls it rape, people will generally do the whole “Pfft, whatever, you just changed your mind about the sex after the fact.” I’ve heard a lot of stories of people ostracizing rape victims and siding with the rapists.

    *Even rapists themselves generally don’t use that word – there was a study where a group of male college students was asked if they’d ever raped anyone and most or all of them said no…but when offered a more detailed list of acts and behaviours described in neutral language, a pretty substantial portion of the guys said they had done one or more of those things. Repeatedly.

  17. aliarasthedaydreamer says:

    @DMB it’s possible — and I’m engaging in the same “privileging my own experience” bit here — but it’s possible that she was hurting, but didn’t see that as rape (“god, why am I so upset about this? It’s not like he raped me or anything”).

    That said, if the study mentioned is this one, the questions were pretty unambiguously about nonconsent. So I’m not sure if your situation would come up.

  18. Here’s an interesting question: Is something rape if neither party thinks it was?

    Plenty of people have been raped but don’t “think” it was rape – because they don’t understand the mechanics of consent, are under the impression that it’s only rape when a stranger drags you into an alley, etc.

    If nonconsensual sex happened and the unconsenting person feels icky about it, that’s rape…whether they choose to label it with that word or not.

    Yes, aliarasthedaydreamer, that’s the study I meant, thank you.

  19. @DMB, furthering what you said:
    What about manufactured consent?
    [Wanna have sex? “No.” How about now? “No.” Please? “I don’t want to.” C’mon, it’ll be fun! “Fine, we can have sex.]

    What about shared drunkeness?
    [Did we have sex last night? I dunno, did we?]

    What about sex with a threat of slander/blackmail (instead of violence)?
    [If you don’t have sex with me, I’ll tell your friends you gave me herpes.]

    What about if I lie to you and my lie directly influences your decision to have sex with me?
    [I’m a virgin and have never had sex. “I’ll have sex with you! I’ve always wanted to have sex with a virgin!”]

    What if I lie to you and you aren’t sure that my lie influenced your decision to have sex with me?
    [I want to have sex with you – you’ve had STD tests, right? “I sure have!”]

  20. aliarasthedaydreamer says:

    @DMB What’s meant by those kinds of rules or statements is that intoxication can, at a certain level, impair ability to consent to sex, much as it impairs the ability to make other kinds of judgements. All intoxication does not do this, obviously — in fact, some of the most explicitly consensual sex I’ve had was drunk (tipsy?) sex.

    I suspect that, if rules are on the books that say drunk = rape (and not just “if you could have reasonably known your partner was so intoxicated they couldn’t give consent = rape”) , they’re there for the same reason ones which say age difference = rape are. Yes, sometimes it’s legit and everyone’s happy. But sometimes it’s not, and there needs to be a way to punish that.

    Although, as this post reminds us, sometimes people lie. So I dunno.

    (All that said: the survey questions specifically focused on situations in which the rapist knew their victim didn’t consent, and had sex with them anyways, because they were too drunk or because the rapist used threats, violence, or intimidation. So I don’t think the survey is subject to an area where techinically something but actually not.)

  21. You didn’t understand my question. If neither party feels taken advantage of, but the on-paper act was still rape, is it rape?

    I understand the question, I guess I just don’t see the point of it. I’ve only ever seen rape defined as sex without consent; therefore sex without consent is…rape.

    When you add “…But what if both people feel totally fine about it?!” I get the feeling you’re trying to steer the conversation toward the idea that unconsenting sex is only bad when it hurts someone, and I’m squicked by that. If that’s not where you were going with that, please accept my apologies, but that is why I didn’t address that part of the question – it didn’t seem like it could possibly lead to a happy place.

  22. JM says:

    @rezam: When I first read that I thought “forgive” was referring to a wrong, real or imagined, that prompted the false accusation. Though now that you mention it, it does seem very odd.

  23. Lake says:

    Though hysteria definitely is gendered, “histrionic” has nothing to do with it. It’s from “histrio”, Latin for actor. “Hysteria” is from “hystera”, Ancient Greek for uterus.

  24. Laura says:

    I think the concern about he-or-she-didn’t-call-it-rape might be that a person might not want to use the r-word because then they have to face up to the fact that that is what happened. As long as you don’t have to say you were raped then you are not a rape victim and don’t have any rape victim baggage. Except possibly you do.

  25. Cel says:

    Interesting point you bring up here Noah.

    MRA’s and feminists frequently talk about false rape allegations as a percent of reported rapes (i.e. of reported rapes, X% are false reports).

    Feminists rightly bring up the number of unreported rapes, which are not a factor in the previous number. No one knows for sure the number of unreported rapes.

    Here we have what you might call “unreported false rape claims.” This is something that I have not seen many, if any people discuss. No one knows for sure the number of unreported false rape claims – women making false rape claims not to the police or authorities, but simply to other members of the public.

    We only hear about such “unreported false claims” if they result in some issue too large to be concealed: such as when a false claim is told to a friend or relative, and the friend or relative ends up brutally injuring or even killing the so-called rapist.

  26. Darque says:

    Regarding that college study:

    I wonder if anyone had the female students of the college sit down and ask them to fill out that checklist. I wonder what kind of numbers we would get out of it.

    In other words, why only ask the men if they’ve raped someone?

  27. Bathorie says:

    Doctormindbeam: If neither party feels taken advantage of, but the on-paper act was still rape, is it rape? Your question isn’t actually very hypothetical at all, I think. I live in Canada, and I’m not sure how American laws handle this, but here these kinds of situations generally fall under common law, I believe. So for instance, If I was too intoxicated to consent, and my boyfriend and I had sex that I felt fine about, it wouldn’t be legally rape: based on my established personal relationship with him, established previous behavior, and the fact that I don’t think of it as rape makes it legally consensual sex. It works with other things as well: if I took his car without telling him, and he didn’t care, it doesn’t count as joyriding. Of course can get more complex than that –its hard to draw the line of “established relationship” and “established behavior”- but that’s generally how a situation is looked at. (At least in Alberta, where I live, and where common law is invoked a lot.)

  28. rezam says:

    Bathorie, with all due respect, I cannot imagine how Alberta differs that much from other provinces. The Criminal Code applies to all provinces. the fact is that s276 clearly not only provides a rape shield to prior sex acts (including within marriage or LT relationships), but further, following R v Seaboyer, Ewanchuk and Darrach, the defence of mistaken consent has been strongly curtailed.
    So to as to the introduction or prior sexual history including with the complainant. Gonthier opined that “He will still face a difficult tests establishing the possible probative value of such evidence.” in his submission to the judge as to admissibility (otherwise disallowed).
    The point is – “sex that I felt fine about …the fact that I don’t think of it as rape ” is your boyfriend’s only reliance on it NOT being legally rape, absent some independently verifiable evidence – most likely video. Common Law does NOT come into the matter at all – that was many decades ago.
    As to dmb’s hypothetical, I read it as being the difference between a standardized instrument – a questionaire – whereby specific responses produced a rape finding, and the mutual subjective views of the actual participants – acts as opposed to meaning. The point likely has something to do with research such as Koss’s, wherein specific acts led to conclusions that rape occurred, whereas, some participants did not subjectively see it that way. This in turn led to allegations of false consciousness on the part of the participants.

  29. Kimberly says:

    ““The accuser might, eventually, feel guilty and forgive you*, ….”
    I’m a little fuzzy today, so could someone help me out?”

    I think he was building, somewhat, on the original post where the accuser seems to have made the accusation because she was angry with him. So, if that was something that happened then maybe the accuser would get over it/see that their response was inappropriate, and try to correct the situation.

  30. mythago says:

    What strikes me as particularly awful is the reaction of others beyond “believing the accuser”. This wasn’t simply a matter of people believing Maureen – nobody would tell you why you were unwelcome, people piled trash outside your door – nobody had the character to say “We don’t want a rapist living here” or to confront you. (I’m not saying that would have made you feel better or excused Maureen. But it strikes me as extremely creepy to believe an accuser in such a passive-aggressive way.)

  31. aliarasthedaydreamer says:

    @Darque

    Yeah, I wonder that myself, and was planning on writing to the author of the study to see if he’d done any work in that area or would consider exploring it. Studies like those are hugely useful to rape prevention efforts, because they can tell us who is raping and why. For example, the one cited seems to indicate that anti-rape education that focuses on educating people (usually men) about consent is not very productive, because the perpetrators know exactly what they’re doing. Instead, we should be focusing on bystander education — teaching people how to spot a sketchy situation and how to intervene when they do.

  32. typhonblue says:

    @ trichquestions

    “To be honest, I always thought that a woman who makes rape accusations that are totally false MUST have some sort of illness. ”

    @preversecowgirl

    “I’ve heard a lot of stories of people ostracizing rape victims and siding with the rapists.”

    How do you know who was a rape victim and who was falsely accused?

    “there was a study where a group of male college students was asked if they’d ever raped anyone and most or all of them said no…but when offered a more detailed list of acts and behaviours described in neutral language, a pretty substantial portion of the guys said they had done one or more of those things. Repeatedly.”

    Too bad they didn’t ask the women. I bet they would have gotten very similar results.

    @doctormindbeam

    Perhaps you were alluding to a situation described in this stand up comedy sketch:

    @Noahbrand

    To be honest I don’t feel comfortable retelling my experience. It was minor, but the idea that people are going to think I actually did it bothers me no end. And the comments in this thread are not helping. You’re a lot tougher soul then myself.

    BTW, having thought about it, I don’t think saying ‘I hope it didn’t damage your life too much’ was appropriate. I don’t think anyone would say such a thing to a rape victim as the damage done by rape is taken as a given.

    Hopefully we will eventually get to that point with false rape accusations as well.

  33. Bathorie says:

    Trichquestions: To be honest, I always thought that a woman who makes rape accusations that are totally false MUST have some sort of illness. Why else would you put someone else (not to mention yourself) through something like that? There’s a book called Games People Play by Eric Berne that may answer that question on an individual level. He was a psychologist who studied transactional analysis, and wrote a book about the psychological “games” people play with each other. One of the games was called “Rapo”: where a woman falsely accuses a man of rape with the intent to do him harm. A pdf of the book is here: http://files.myopera.com/eketab3/blog/The%20Games%20People%20Play.pdf?1310939255 and while the language is a bit odd (he’s a Freudian, and the book was written in the early 60s) it might be interesting to check out.

  34. typhonblue says:

    Forgot to actually include my comment to trich.

    @ trichquestions

    “To be honest, I always thought that a woman who makes rape accusations that are totally false MUST have some sort of illness. ”

    Or, maybe, she’s just an asshole?

  35. Bathorie says:

    Rezam: Bathorie, with all due respect, I cannot imagine how Alberta differs that much from other provinces.[…] I think perhaps we’re talking about two different scenarios. All of the things you quoted would be 100% relevant if, using DMB’s phrasing, “[one of the] party feels taken advantage of”. You’re right that my not considering it rape is my “boyfriend’s only reliance on it NOT being legally rape, absent some independently verifiable evidence”, and it’s my understanding that because “neither party feels taken advantage of” it is not considered criminal. Our previous history together establishes me as competent to make that decision.*

    As to dmb’s hypothetical[…] I read it the same way, actually. The example I gave with my boyfriend was meant to be an example of how the law deals with subjective views of the actual participants- according to Koss’ questionnaire my example was rape; according to the law it isn’t.

    *I’m not a lawyer, so pardon the layman’s terms.

  36. girlwriteswhat says:

    I think what terrifies men most about false accusations is that there are women who will take it further than Maureen took it with you, and there’s little recourse for redress.

    Some false accusers *will* go to police and file a report, at which point your name would be tied to an accusation/arrest in a police file somewhere at the very least. If you were charged and then exonerated the accusation will still come up in a Google search of your name for any potential employers to see. If she brought you in front of the University’s board, she could have got you kicked out of college and blacklisted at any others. If it had gone to a criminal trial, she could have forced you to spend thousands of dollars you didn’t have defending yourself, and could even have landed you in prison, where you might be repeatedly raped.

    And in some cases, prosecutors have their own agendas and biases. The prosecutor in the Duke LaCross case was disbarred. In one famous Canadian exoneration, there was exculpatory DNA evidence that was kept from the defence. In another, there was CC video footage that showed the convicted man was in another county during the time the crime took place, which was also kept from the defence.

    And finally, women who make malicious false accusations are almost never punished for what they did. Few even lose their rape shield anonymity. And when a mistake is made and a woman punished for a false accusation that turned out to be true (say, a $500 fine and 18 months court-ordered counselling, I forget which case this was, but remember some details), there’s an even greater push to never punish false accusers. Well-known feminists will even say things like, “Men can gain from the experience of being falsely accused” as if it’s some kind of character-building exercise with no real-world, permanent consequences for them.

    And when anyone suggests extending rape shield anonymity to the accused until charge or conviction, well…why has this not already been done? Because some men get away with rape, and if you can drag their name through the mud at least they got some kind of punishment? But there’s no real consideration of potentially innocent men who are also punished. “It’s a small price to pay if it means fewer real rapists get away with it.” Unless you’re the one paying the price, huh?

    Rape is a horrible crime committed by one asshole. Men like those in the Hofstra and Duke LaCross cases were victimized by a woman, and then revictimized by our legal system. We should hold our legal system to a higher standard than we do our criminals, shouldn’t we?

  37. Typhonblue:

    How do you know who was a rape victim and who was falsely accused?

    That’s really weird wording since it suggests that every rape involves a victim and a falsely accused rapist. I guess what you’re asking is, “When you hear stories about victims of acquaintance rape being ostracized from their circle of friends while their rapists are not, how do you know the storyteller was actually raped and not making it up?”

    My answer is: technically, I don’t. But I have no reason to believe they’d lie, either. And I’ve seen the way so many people try to minimize the experience of rape, blame the victim, etc. – anything at all to keep from admitting that a crime happened. (I’ve also been shamed by mutual friends many times (“God, why are you being so rude? It was just a playful slap on the ass…”) when I’ve told a guy-friend to respect my boundaries…which is the same dynamic in microcosm). People already tacitly take the rapist’s side all the time when they read about rape in the newspaper or on the internet; is it a huge leap to assume they might do so when the rape occurred between two people they knew in real life?

    Too bad they didn’t ask the women [the same questions about raping people]. I bet they would have gotten very similar results.

    Not with those exact questions, I wouldn’t think. Three of the four questions talked about having sex with someone via “force or threats of force”. I have no doubt that lots of women behave in sexually inappropriate ways toward men – perhaps even as high a percentage as the percentage of men who rape women – but it’s probably not common for women to use physical force since most dudes tend to be stronger. Manipulation of various kinds, yes. Or just going ahead and grabbing a guy because everyone knows dudes love all forms of sexual attention, ha ha.

    Anyway, I’d be interested as hell to see a strategically-worded “have you ever been sexual with someone who clearly didn’t want it” study directed toward women, too. And I think people need to be educated on consent and bodily autonomy a lot more than they currently are.

  38. Hugh Ristik says:

    My co-blogger Daran looked into the Koss paper here and here. It turns out that most people criticizing the study don’t seem to have read it. It’s difficult to explain away the results as supporting anything lower than a 9% rate of rape.

    Let’s briefly look at the 3 questions Koss used to measure rape:

    8. Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?

    9. Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because a man threatened or used some degree of physical force (twisting your arm, holding you down, etc) to make you?

    10. Have you had sexual acts (anal or oral intercourse, or penetration by objects other than the penis) when you didn’t want to because a man threatened or used some degree of physical force (twisting your arm, holding you down, etc) to make you?

    The percentage of women answering “yes” to these questions was 8%, 9%, and 6%, respectively.

    Bathorie, your case probably wouldn’t be classified as rape by question #8, even though the question has been criticized for being too broad.

    Even though only 27% of women answering “yes” to these questions said that they were raped, it’s difficult to construe #9 as anything other than rape.

    As for #10, it’s reasonable to call it rape, but I do have a theory about why some participants were unwilling to do so. Koss also found that 16% of women considered what happened to be “a crime other than rape.” Perhaps some of the women answering “yes” to question #10 felt that if intercourse didn’t occur, it wasn’t rape, but some other crime. I suspect that a lot of people define rape as “nonconsensual sex,” but if penetration with an object doesn’t count as “sex” to some people, then they won’t count it as rape. Instead, I can see how some women might consider it to be a crime other than rape, like sexual assault.

    Of course, that’s just speculation. Even if my theory is right, and we throw out question #8, then it’s still unexplained why women answering “yes” to question #9 might not consider themselves to have been raped.

  39. Brian says:

    Damn, lot of posts since I last posted. In approximate chronological order:

    DMB, sorry for calling noah “dmb”. Noah, sorry for calling you “dmb”. Also sorry for the phrase “dick move”; I don’t usually associate that sense of dick with dick-the-body-part-in-my-mind. But if it’s not too big a request, could you use strikeout to replace those next time? Or at least clarify exactly what it is that you removed in the post? “Sexist slur” covers a pretty wide range and it would be nice if the mod comment couldn’t be construed to mean that I said something horrible as opposed to something boneheaded*.

    Also for further evidence I wasn’t thinking too clearly when I wrote that, by “forgive” I meant something like “fess up”. Only explanation I can give there was that I got to “accuser” and the lack of sleep made me forget anything upwind.

    Another comment to come when I read the rest of the thread.

    *: Which refers to skulls, not boners! I’m pretty sure! At least I hope it does!

  40. Hugh Ristik says:

    typhonblue said:

    Too bad they didn’t ask the women. I bet they would have gotten very similar results.

    Here is a German study finding that 9.3% of women admitted sexually coercive behaviors.

    From their introduction:

    In one of the first prevalence studies of female-on-male sexual aggression,
    Struckman-Johnson (1988) found that 2% of the 355 female college students in her sample reported that they had “forced sex on a dating partner” at least once in their lifetime. Poppen and Segal (1988) reported an overall percentage of lifetime prevalence (including both verbal coercion and physical assault) of 14%. In a survey of 171 female college students, Shea (1998) obtained a lifetime prevalence rate of 19% for verbal coercion. Only two respondents (1.2%) reported having physically assaulted a man. Hogben et al. (1996) found an overall lifetime prevalence rate of 24% for women having made a man engage in sexual activity against his will.

    In a sample of 212 female participants studied by Anderson and Aymami (1993), 28.5% reported the use of verbal coercion, 14.7% had coerced a man into sexual activity by getting him intoxicated, and 7.1% had threatened or used physical force. Higher prevalence rates were established in a subsequent study by Anderson (1998) in which the same instrument was used. Prevalence of verbal coercion was as high as 43%, and 36.5% of respondents reported having gotten a man intoxicated to make him engage in sexual acts. Threat of force was reported by 27.8%, use of force by 20%, and threatening a man with a weapon by 8.9% of the female participants.

    Of course, these are studies on different populations with different methodology. Krahe et al.’s questions were:

    (1) Physical force: “Have you ever made (or tried to make) a man have sexual contact with you against his will by threatening to use force or by harming him?”
    (2) Exploitation of the man’s incapacitated state: “Have you ever made (or tried to make) a
    man have sexual contact with you against his will by exploiting the fact that he was unable to
    resist (e.g., after he had had too much alcohol or drugs)?”
    (3) Verbal pressure: “Have you ever made (or tried to make) a man have sexual contact
    with you against his will by putting verbal pressure on him (e.g., by threatening to end the
    relationship or calling him a failure)?”

    The results:

    Exploitation of a man’s incapacitated state was the most frequently reported strategy (5.6%), followed by verbal pressure (3.2%), and physical force (2.0%).

    9.3% did at least one of these, and another 5% made attempts.

  41. typhonblue says:

    @perversecowgirl

    “My answer is: technically, I don’t. But I have no reason to believe they’d lie, either.”

    Do you think maybe your other friends came down on the other side of the issue for their own reasons?

    “People already tacitly take the rapist’s side all the time when they read about rape in the newspaper or on the internet; is it a huge leap to assume they might do so when the rape occurred between two people they knew in real life?”

    How can you say this on a thread where the OP describes a situation in which people *did not* tacitly take the rapist’s side?

    To be honest, *this* is exactly why I would never talk about my experience. It seems to me that you’re implying everyone on this thread who doesn’t think noahbrand is a rapist, is taking the side of a rapist.

    Have you never heard of people accused of rape being harassed, assaulted, murdered? How about the fact that convicted rapists go into protective custody in jail due to the high probability of being killed by other inmates?

    If you think everyone tacitly takes the side of the ‘rapist’, then why was DSK’s perp walk so damaging to his life and reputation?

  42. rezam says:

    Brian, I am a bit unclear about

    “It’s a shame that when men are falsely accused of rape, there’s really no way to stop the accusation that doesn’t involve the accuser.”

    Why is this a shame? Why would it be a good thing that the [false accusing] accuser NOT be involved?

  43. Brian says:

    @Rezam: Because a particularly stubborn and intelligent accuser could leave you with no way to dispel the accusation.

    @typhonblue: If you think everyone tacitly takes the side of the accuser, how do you explain Ben “hotel maids are complete lunatics” Stein?

    (Incidentally, if you think that question is a strawman, your question is also a strawman; perversecowgirl said nothing about “everyone”, only that “people do”. Ben Stein is people.)

  44. typhonblue says:

    @ Brian

    Then perversecowgirl was responding to a straw version of my argument. Because I never said that people don’t take the side of the accused, only that she couldn’t know for sure if there was a rape victim or if someone had been falsely accused.

  45. JIm says:

    Perversecowgirl, you say,
    “… but it’s probably not common for women to use physical force since most dudes tend to be stronger.”
    and that seems pretty obvious, but in fact women have much greater physical force than men do in this situations, in the form of the State and the criminal justice system. Women can use the threat of a rpae accusation as a menas of raping…, well, I was going to saya man, but the victims are not always full-grown..

    When James Landrith came out and wrote the story of how he’d been raped, and for male victims it very often is a coming out process, this is what he recounted. As young Marine he once gave shelter in his motel room to the pregnant wife of a friend. He awoke in the middle of the night to find her straddling him and riding his erect penis. She threatened to accuse him of rape if he tried to stop her. Of course she would have been believed and he would have been disbelieved, and you can imagine the public reaction to a fit young man rpaing a preganant woman.This is exssentially the same scenario as in To Kill A Mockingbird.

    Then there was an instance that Steven Berkimer at the False Rape Society wrote abot where a woamn threatened the boy she was raping with a false rape accusation – she threatened to suborn a girl to accuse him of rape if he reported her rape of him.

    This is insitutional and systemic, since it is a feature of the legal system as it curently functions, so it aplies to all men. That makes the question of how common it is is beside the point.

  46. rezam says:

    Brian :“It’s a shame that when men are falsely accused of rape, there’s really no way to stop the accusation that doesn’t involve the accuser.”

    Brian “Because a particularly stubborn and intelligent accuser could leave you with no way to dispel the accusation.”

    Is it your belief that a supposed false accuser assists one in dispelling an accusation? Dispelling an accusation, assuming that it has been formally made, is generally done on the basis of evidence. Does the accuser assist in providing such evidence?

    I must be misunderstanding you. An accuser presents a claim – I was assaulted. The cops collect her evidence, ranging from a set of interviews, a rape kit if relevant, eye-witness ID processes and so on. The cops acquire whatever other evidence might be germane – scene details, other eye-witnesses and so on. Charges are laid. At this point, the state takes over and the accuser moves to the background until trial. To dispel the accusation, the defense has to rebut the existing evidence by either challenging it, or by providing exculpatory evidence.
    If there is exculpatory evidence that sufficiently challenges the case, are you saying that its a shame that stopping the accusation involves the accuser?
    There was a case in California where the woman inflicted burns on her abdomen, claimed that the ex-husband raped her, and had him charged. Are you saying that the exculpatory video of him being elsewhere at the time should not have been shown to her by the detective? He by the way, was declared innocent – by motion to the court.
    Are you saying that once it is clearly established that the accused person did not in fact commit the rape, that the accuser should not be involved. Society has no interest in asking what happened. Despite the potential damages to the falsely accused?

    Or do you mean that it would be nice if the accused could exonerate himself without involving the accuser? You do realize that it is rare for a prosecutor to drop a case without speaking to the complainant about the exonerating evidence? When one files a claim in a court, one IS involved. One does not simply file a claim and then walk away?

    Perhaps you could give me an example that would clarify your thinking a bit because I am having trouble puzzling it through.

  47. Bathorie says:

    Hugh Ristik: My apologies. I hadn’t seen the actual questionnaire, and I was mostly responding to DMB’s hypothetical scenario. The “according to Koss’ questionnaire my example was rape” was just sloppy phrasing on my part.

  48. typhonblue says:

    @ Brian and Perversecowgirl

    What I was getting at is when there is a rape accusation and some people support the accused rather then the accuser, that doesn’t mean they’re supporting a rapist. Because you can’t know if the accused *is* a rapist.

    No one supports rapists, they support people they think are innocent of having raped.

  49. Brian says:

    “Dispelling an accusation, assuming that it has been formally made, is generally done on the basis of evidence.”

    Which is exactly why making the accusation formally would be a tactical error.

    Since you seem to have missed it, let me point out the relevant part of my original comment:

    “or she might make the tactical error of reporting the rape to the police. But since there’s no way to prove you didn’t rape someone without the kind of detailed examination of the evidence you get in court it’s a pretty insidious kind of rumor to spread. ”

    —-
    “No one supports rapists, they support people they think are innocent of having raped.”

    And some of them will be wrong and actually be supporting a rapist.

  50. typhonblue says:

    @ Brian

    “And some of them will be wrong and actually be supporting a rapist.”

    And some people who support presumed rape victims will be wrong and supporting a false rape accuser.

    These are vacuous statements.

    People who automatically believe rape accusers/accused will believe people who support rape accusers/accused are supporting false rape accusers/rapists.

  51. Brian says:

    “And some people who support presumed rape victims will be wrong and supporting a false rape accuser. ”

    Yes.

  52. rezam says:

    Brian :“It’s a shame that when men are falsely accused of rape, there’s really no way to stop the accusation that doesn’t involve the accuser.”

    You have shed no light on this statement whatsoever. Nevermind, it’s not worth the cycles I already invested.

  53. Brian says:

    Okay, looks like I’m going to have to be fully explicit:

    I am not talking about after the accuser reports it to the police. Reporting it to the police is itself a mistake (because courts require evidence she(?) doesn’t have) and thus involves the accuser messing up.

    But if she(?) doesn’t make that mistake, then the only way to stop the accusation is for her(?) to fess up, because you are unlikely to be able to gather and present counterevidence to everyone your accuser has lied to, even if such counterevidence exists, and even if it’s convincing enough that nobody will continue to believe the accusation despite the evidence.

    And just in case that wasn’t explicit enough: I am not talking about formal rape accusations. I am not talking about the police, I am not talking about courtrooms, I am talking about someone spreading the rumor that you have raped her(?).

  54. Typhonblue: What I was getting at is when there is a rape accusation and some people support the accused rather then the accuser, that doesn’t mean they’re supporting a rapist.

    Fair.

    Because you can’t know if the accused *is* a rapist.

    I assert that there are many times when people do know that someone (of any sex) is raping or abusing someone (of any sex) – or at least they can be 99% sure – but they don’t do anything about it. For a lot of people, sadly, the path of least resistance is to cover your ears and go “la la la” when bad things happen…and if someone tries to uncover your ears, you lash out at them for making you hear icky things.

    “People already tacitly take the rapist’s side all the time when they read about rape in the newspaper or on the internet; is it a huge leap to assume they might do so when the rape occurred between two people they knew in real life?”

    How can you say this on a thread where the OP describes a situation in which people *did not* tacitly take the rapist’s side?

    Because I meant “all the time” in the colloquial sense of “an awful lot”, not in the sense of “literally every single time.” Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

    And it occurs to me that Noah’s story is the flip side of the same “la-la-la I don’t hear you” coin: in society at large, people place high importance on the idea that rapists and abusers are evil and nobody they know could possibly do a thing like that – and they will jump through ridiculous mental hoops to defend this idea. In a radical-feminist-rich environment (like Noah’s school), the vitally important thing is to always, always believe a woman who says she was raped, pretty much no matter what. I bet there were people who strongly suspected Maureen of making up the rape accusation (people who knew she had a crush on Noah and knew Maureen to be a vindictive drama queen, perhaps) but they were afraid to speak up because in that charged feminist climate, they’d be ostracized.

    So I guess basically rape carries a different stigma depending on the community in which it happens (or is accused of happening). It bothers me that discussions of false accusations always bring out hordes of people yelling “but that’ll ruin a guy’s life!!!” because I’ve heard of many times when guys were accused of rape (and may well have been guilty) and nothing much happened to them at all. But I realize now that if I lived in a different kind of environment (like a university full of feminists…), my perceptions of the consequences of a rape accusation might be very different.

  55. rezam says:

    Sure Brian, those of us who are slow need you to be explicit, so thankyou very much. That is much clearer now.
    One of the avenues of course, is a defamation suit – this is after all, slander. That is the standard legal method for clearing a reputation. Of course, that would be quite hard to do, without having to involve the accuser, now would it not. You know – discovery and so on. So I guess that would be an ineligible course of action.
    And since the false accuser would rarely “fess up”, then there is nothing to be done. Pity that.

  56. Brian says:

    Hmm… If there are serious consequences, like if you lose your job or something, that might work, but I’m not sure if that would be worth the legal fees just for being ostracized.

  57. Brock says:

    There was an incident in my social circle in college where a false rape accusation almost led to tragedy, in the classic Greek sense.

    There was a party, involving lots of alcohol and other judgment-altering substances. At some point, a woman – call her “A” – who was very inebriated, called her boyfriend, call him “B”, who was not at the party, and told him that another man, “T”, who was at the party, had raped her, at the party.

    I don’t know why A did this. I didn’t know her very well, but she did have a reputation as a pathological liar. And T was a total cad, so he might have been hitting on her.

    Unfortunately, B was a hothead, and owned a handgun. He was preparing to take the handgun to the party, and kill T. Luckily for all involved, another friend who was with him talked him out of bringing the handgun.

    For some reason I don’t understand, he brought a flare gun instead – I guess he was planning to just threaten T with it. When he got to the party, A confessed that she had lied to him.

    At some point in the evening, B fired the flare gun in the parking lot, and the person who was hosting the party got kicked out of her apartment because of this. Still, it wasn’t nearly as bad as it could have been if B hadn’t been talked out of bringing his actual handgun.

  58. Jim says:

    Perversecowgirl, your whole comment is excellent, but i wanted to pick up on two wespecially good points you make.

    1. “In a radical-feminist-rich environment (like Noah’s school), the vitally important thing is to always, always believe a woman who says she was raped, pretty much no matter what. ”

    It is vitally important to always, always, and not in thataprticulr environment, believe a *person* who says he/she is raped, no matter what, but only for *therapeutic* reasons, in the context of counseling. That attitude has no place in the context of the legal system however. It is very tyopical in these discussions for that crucial distinction to be ignored. The criminal justice system is not inteded as a form of therapy for crime victims.

    * I didn’t misunderstand you to be focusing only on female victims, I saw that you were referring to Noah’s specific case.

    2. “So I guess basically rape carries a different stigma depending on the community in which it happens (or is accused of happening). ”

    This is important to bear in mind in all aspects of this. It impacts directly on the willingness of victims to accuse. The same holds for those accused of rape. It varies by culture and by sub-culture, even within what is supposed to be all one society.

  59. I didn’t want to type this out, but the following is a true story from my time as a newspaper editor. Although the story didn’t get in the news, the appeal of man “B” for charges of stealing an automobile resulted in the following “background” going into the reversal decision of the court.

    Woman A is at a party. She gets a ride home with man, V, who she also happens to owe a few thousand dollars. Halfway back to her house, they get in an argument about the money A owes V. V stops the car, and orders her out. She walks to her house.
    When she arrives to her house, she tells her brother, B and his friend, C, that V raped her. She told them because she wanted them to scare V into leaving her alone about the money. A goes to sleep, and B and C take her car (hence the auto theft charge that lead to this appeal.) Unbeknownst to B, C brought his handgun for protection from V. B and C arrive at V’s house and an argument ensues. V says that A is lying about the rape. C, angered by V calling A a liar, shoots and kills V. B leaves C at the house and calls 911, as he heads home to confront his sister, A, about the rape. He is stopped by police in the “stolen” car – as the sister woke up and reported it missing. C was convicted of the murder of V. A was never charged with any crime.
    (For those interested, the question regarding the appeal was whether or not the Brother intended to deprive his sister of permenant use of the car – a moot point for this discussion.)

    The above is a true story of how an innocent man who had lended a woman some money became a victim of vigilante “justice.” These stories are often kept out of the news due to pressure from rape advocate organizations to downplay false accusations.*

    *I am saying this as someone with experience in local media editorial decisions – this is not conjecture – it is the experience of many newspapers I have worked for/with, including Knight-Ridder, Media General and McClatchy. (KR has since been bought by McClatchy.)

  60. Brian says:

    …I would think “caused someone to kill a guy” is more than enough damage for a slander case.

  61. Schadrach says:

    @Rezam, 7/17/11 11:07pm:

    Look at a case like Tracy West/Louis Gonzales III (I believe this was the case in CA you were referring to). If Gonzales hadn’t been lucky enough to literally have an alibi for every minute of that day save for a six minute window, he would most likely be in jail right now, and branded for like as a sex offender. He still spent 83 days in jail, got hurdles thrown in the way of regaining any measure of access to his son, it will almost certainly impact his future professional life, and let’s not forget how it effected him personally. She was all but unpunished.

    Or how about a case like that of Paul Greig? He was found guilty (and I’ll not question the court system), but for a case like his, how would you even go about defending yourself if it were a false accusation? There was no physical evidence (after all, the rape in question happened 36 years ago).

    Honestly, rape shield laws should apply to both the accused and the accuser until the case is sorted out one way or the other. I also think false accusers should be brought up on charges more often, the risk is too low for the potential harm caused by a false accusation.

  62. Kari says:

    @noahbrand, thank you for sharing this, and I’m sorry that happened to you. You write: “In the end, I’m not sure my story has any larger lesson to teach.” I disagree. I think that your story shows why the rape culture is destructive for men. A culture wherein rape victims (of all genders) were encouraged and supported when they report rapes, wherein due process was consistently and openly carried out, wherein both accusers and accused are presumed innocent until proven guilty (i.e. no slut-shaming or victim-blaming, but also no unreasonable accusations against accused) would obviously be better for men, women, and everyone. Dismantling the rape culture thoroughly only really harms one group: rapists.

  63. rezam says:

    @Schadrach – yes that is the case I was referring to
    @ Brian – sure that is enough damage for a slander case, course, the person damaged is dead, so, unless he has a child/spouse that can advance a claim, that would be that.

    Interestingly, an estate is precluded under US law from pursuing appeals for wrongful convictions of the deceased, as the appeal is considered moot. I suspect the same would apply to civil cases, as being frustrated. Further, a trustee would most likely be held as in breach of their fiduciary duty in advancing a civil suit on behalf of the testator and their estate. Weird the things you pick up in the course of a life’s experience. Sometimes I wonder if lawyers actually inhabit the same planet as the rest of us do.

  64. rezam says:

    @ Brian – you see the environment I was wondering about is NOT a an allegation under specifically criminal law. Going on noah;s story, I was considering administrative tribunals at universities. I read an article written by a feminist professor regarding some elements of process that she viewed as somewhat akin to a kangaroo court. At issue appeared to be the lack of right to counsel for the accused, the weak evidentiary vouching, the lack of a right to a cross-examination, and so on…
    Here, it would appear that every effort has been made to not involve the accuser. Are there damages involved if adjudged guilty of an allegation that was false? I don’t know. I assume that there are though – educational interruption, suspension, expulsion, inability to enter another school, psychological and social sequalae…

    My understanding is that there have been quite recent changes to the codes of such processes mandated by the Obama administration changing the applicable standard of reaching a finding, reducing it to the civil standard of balance of probabilities. Biden perhaps announced it?

    The feminist professor I mentioned – CLEARLY attributed much of the problem to university administration’s objective of having a problem go away, in which case it was simply easier to find against the accused, and get rid of him. Justice did not enter into their equation. A close examination of the behaviour of Duke’s administration clearly show this, in the person of Bob Steele, the chair of the Board of Trustees. [Said case, to be clear, was 1% about the accuser, and 99% attributable to the abuse of power by, overwhelmingly, men – except for possibly three women.]

    So, to me, the issue raised by noah’s story goes far beyond simple ostracism, he was lucky indeed that the university did not get involved.

  65. typhonblue says:

    >The above is a true story of how an innocent man who had lended a woman some money became a victim of vigilante “justice.” These stories are often kept out of the news due to pressure from rape advocate organizations to downplay false accusations.

    I’ve read a lot of similar stories over the years. Here’s a rundown of the ones I remember off the top of my head that happened to accused men.

    * Mentally disabled young man gets ‘Rapest’ tattooed on his head.
    * Man gets assaulted by a gang of people and sodomized with a branch.
    * Man gets shot when a husband’s wife shouts ‘rape’ after the husband finds them both having consensual sex.

    I remember more but I can’t think of the specifics right now. I have never heard of an accuser being the subject of vigilante justice (or, often, any justice).

    If you want to keep a ‘rape culture’ hypothesis it has to adjust to accommodate the fact that people loath and despise rapists they just might disagree with you on _what constitutes rape_.

  66. southernxyl says:

    “…I would think “caused someone to kill a guy” is more than enough damage for a slander case.”

    Brian, she didn’t cause her brother to kill the guy. Her brother had free will and chose to kill the guy. If he believed his sister, the thing to do was to call the police.

  67. typhonblue says:

    @ southernxyl

    “Brian, she didn’t cause her brother to kill the guy. Her brother had free will and chose to kill the guy. If he believed his sister, the thing to do was to call the police.”

    If there was a charge men could say that had the potential to cause women close to them to go out and assault, rape or beat to death another woman, would you say that they hold some responsibility when they use it against an innocent woman?

  68. Laura says:

    How could person A cause person B to assault, rape, or beat to death another person? At what point does Person B’s responsibility for his/her actions kick in?

    I could see it, maybe, if there is ongoing victimization and no other recourse. But until you’ve at least tried to get redress through the police and the courts, you have no excuse to go there.

  69. Laura says:

    Well, it is finally letting me put my name in. Don’t know what that’s about. The previous comment was me.

    Typhonblue, I read with admiration your earlier post about agency. Person B in this scenario has agency too. If Person A has reason to think his/her words will lead to Person B acting out, that’s bad, but unless Person B is a child, he/she still has to take responsibility for what he/she does.

  70. typhonblue says:

    @ Laura

    I’m not disagreeing with the fact that Person B still chose to go out and act upon Person A’s accusation.

    But Person A still has responsibility in that if they hadn’t made the accusation, Person B would never have done what they did.

  71. Laura says:

    Yeah.

    I hate to see adults use the formulation, “You made me angry when you…”. Maybe I’ve read too much pop psychology, but I think a better formulation is “I became angry when you…”. Because that puts responsibility for B’s emotional response and actions squarely where it belongs.

    It’s hard because I do think it’s wrong, when you know somebody has a quick temper, to pull their chain for entertainment or to get them to do your dirty work. They still have to step up sometime and own their actions. In this case, where the brother and friend took the car after she was asleep, the friend took the handgun, they drove to V and had the argument, and so on, it’s not exactly heat of the moment.

  72. Let’s be honest: If A really wanted someone to kidnap, beat and brutalize V, she should’ve called the police in the first place.
    (Sorry, I had to say that.)

  73. rezam says:

    southernxyl
    depends on the jurisdiction, I suppose
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917

  74. TomeWyrm says:

    Eden can you come up with a more appropriate word for “excessive or uncontrollable emotion”? Delirium is an altered state of mind, confusion you experience when subjected to a high fever, drugs, or shock. Frenzy brings to mind restless energy and violence. Neurotic doesn’t work either, that’s someone suffering from anxiousness, obsessiveness and/or indecisiveness. Especially without any objective reason.

    Hysteria may have originated because the ancient Greeks thought that it was caused by uterus troubles, but that’s not a reason I find sufficient to strike its use from my vocabulary. The English language has a degree of specificity granted by the use of words that mean almost the same thing, just with different nuances. You shouldn’t have to qualify your statements with “they were experiencing excessive and uncontrolled animosity, not they were having ‘women problems'”. Words are words, they usually gain negative meanings through personal experience. You should endeavor to educate people when they misuse it, or correct those that attach a bunch of their own baggage to the word; rather than simply avoiding use entirely. That just affords more impact to the word.

    On a more recent topic:
    I’m with Kari @12:35pm. On a lot of crimes. The problem is that the justice system involves human beings. We are biased, STRONGLY biased; whether by lack of critical thought on the topic, parental* “teaching”, or simple societal pressure. The problem is less the crime (when the accusation is false), and more the systems (both legal and social) that punish the crimes.

    Extending the rape shield to all involved parties, and/or raising a penalty commensurate to the accusation for false accusations might help, but it will still be the most under-reported crime on the books, because it doesn’t involve anything concrete. When you bring non-physical damages into the picture, you’re subjecting the case to the perceptions of those involved in the proceedings. Victims will worry about disbelief and retaliation, while false accusers will anticipate social “justice”.

    Changing the laws might help, but I feel that the legal system is not the pressing issue: Society is. You can have parents accuse their children’s partners of rape and get away with it. You can have two lovers be accused of child molestation because they don’t fit into their area’s particular age-of-consent bending laws (don’t recall the ‘official’ names for them). Ripping their relationship apart, and (likely) permanently ruining the elder partners life in a dizzying array of ways.

    Abuse of any form is a pernicious thing. The use of manipulation and the intense social stigmas, when combined with people’s tendencies to maintain their personal delusions (the “cover their ears and go ‘la la la’ when bad things happen” that perversecowgirl mentioned), and their overreactions to allegations (on both parties, in false or real cases), will make most people think long and hard about speaking. Just look at the rationalizations for domestic abuse non-reporting in this article: http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2011/07/why-does-she-stay-with-that-jerk.html . There are many other rationalizations you might be able to find when you open it up to sexual abuse or child abuse, rather than only domestic.

    *I have thoughts on parents and the power they wield to shape their children’s minds… but I’m not going to air them here, they’re off topic and likely inflammatory.

  75. Laura says:

    DMB, I guess I have a problem with the word “cause”. “Incite” I can see.

  76. George says:

    Could have been me. Started college in early 90’s. Maybe same school as you. Recently coed. The same feminism you encountered. I didn’t get a false accusation, but the overall climate led to a transfer.

  77. This might just be my experience but the reason I feel strongly that people who make false accusations are not well is because there’s no way an accusation like that would be taken at face value where I live. Not by my friends, acquaintances, family, anyone. The only stories I’ve heard of women claiming to be raped usually involve dissections of what sort of a person she is, whether she was asking for it etc.

    Being ill doesn’t excuse someone for their actions, you can be ill AND be an asshole. I’m just concerned that without understanding the reasons behind why people do things, we won’t come any closer to a solution.

  78. atomilk says:

    “The same feminism you encountered. I didn’t get a false accusation, but the overall climate led to a transfer.”

    I’m ready to leave my hometown over this. :-<

  79. This is my personal experience with false rape accusations: http://logic11.wordpress.com/2010/03/05/one-of-the-ways-false-rape-accusations-hurt/

    It’s a bit more damaging than the one the article was about, and I don’t know where it goes in the end…

  80. MaMu1977 says:

    I live in New York City. So far, there have been over a dozen fatal incidents that were triggered by FRA in my city. Over twenty young men have lost their lives this year because of FRA, with almost ten men dying because they committed the unpardonable offense of being in the vicinity of the falsely accused man. Of the dozen incidents, only one woman was *touched* by her victim (three of the women had consensual sex, three of the women had been snubbed by their desired Target and the rest were just having a bad relationship day.) One of the incidents (the touching one, for the curious) led to eight deaths in two days, plus led to nine children becoming orphans.

    But yeah, FRA doesn’t *really* hurt people. If you want to believe that, there’s a nice bridge that I can sell you for cheap.

  81. noahbrand says:

    But yeah, FRA doesn’t *really* hurt people. If you want to believe that, there’s a nice bridge that I can sell you for cheap.

    Um… meaning no offense, but who exactly are you arguing against with this bit? Has that contention been made by… anyone?

  82. typhonblue says:

    @ Noahbrand

    “Um… meaning no offense, but who exactly are you arguing against with this bit? Has that contention been made by… anyone?”

    At some point I responded to a commentator who was incredulous that FRAs cause significant harm.

    Sometimes people read things in one thread and then a response sort of percolates out into another. The human mind is an odd machine.

  83. noahbrand says:

    @typhonblue: Ah, okay, fair enough. I must’ve totally missed that. 🙂

    (AWFUL lot of comments on this blog, ain’t there?)

  84. typhonblue says:

    @noahbrand

    “(AWFUL lot of comments on this blog, ain’t there?)”

    Yes. And almost all of the commentators represent a different point of view.

  85. MaMu1977 says:

    @noahbrand

    No problem. I posted that comment because I’ve been the vengeful guy, the inadvertent witness and the immediate medical care provider to more than one FRA in my life. My “favorite” story started with me getting out of bed at 2AM after a 70-hour work week (during my military service) to come to the aid of a woman who arrived at our hospital covered in bruised and leaking semen. I returned to my job at 7AM the same day and found out that the accused assailant was in Iraq. Oh, and the semen had ice crystals in it as well. Why the ice crystals, you may ask? Because the accuser saved a condom from their last sexual encounter, then convinced her best friend to hit her to make the accusation seem.valid (long story short: she was his pre-deployment fling, but his inability/lack of desire to stay in touch with her led her to desire punishment. The military hospital, the JAG and the base affairs department were activated to deal with the situation {funny enough, foreigners don’t like the idea of their citizens being raped by Americans}, and it was all for nothing. She wasted our time and the time of the native paramedics who had to drive 45 minutes away from their home facility to take care of her for childish drama. If someone had been hurt due to the diverted resources, I’d have been less forgiving.) No one ever seems to think of who has to pick up the pieces in these situations, whether the claim is legitimate or false.

  86. Hemlock says:

    Lot’s of anecdata floating around. I don’t think it’s always true that women in particular are running rampant lying about rape and it really takes some teasing out what is a true false rape complaint and false false rape complaint. It doesn’t help that it’s pretty much set up that both male and female rape victims face such huge hurdles to even making a complaint, let alone that there is typically a lot of disbelief that such a thing should have occurred. That’s particularly in any situation where the event wasn’t witnessed and the accused may just be able to make the claim it was consensual, turning it into a he said-she said situation. In those situations, we do know something that doesn’t make it a false claim – both agree the act took place, the actual dispute is whether it was consented to or not. Same again with wrong identifications by the police which happen from time to time, but that isn’t a false claim, the rape was real, it’s something about the investigation that has gone wrong. It’s the same with recantations, there may actually have been a crime but for various reasons, the victim is unable to carry on with pressing charges which isn’t that surprising when they will be put on trial as well. Doesn’t mean nothing happened. So there is a lot of grey there – lots of cases that to me at least don’t fit the rape being totally fabricated, but they are regarded as such when they should be regarded as more like “unsubstantiated” and the benefit of doubt held in balance.

    Don’t know if anyone has seen this document, but it’s an interesting analysis of the situation. http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf

    The first thing to note is the majority of rape cases are actually true, but somewhere in between 2-8% may be false. There is very real tendency to suggest that nearly all rape complaints (except maybe those of 80 year women raped and killed that are considered “rape rape”) are false. I’d love to compare that with insurance fraud statistics to see what the rate of dodgy claims is there, because that happens too but people don’t seem to get as horrified at false claims of that type. Given that most rapes aren’t even reported, many that are don’t even have much of an investigation – the many thousands of untested rape kits out there tell their own story, and then got to get through the court system with a fairly low chance overall of a successful prosecution. Not saying it doesn’t happen, it undoubtedly does. It can be damaging, but also it often is raised as a spectre in what could likely be a true claim.

    Society considers “real rape” to be stranger rape, that weapons are used and there is injury, the victim is distraught, reports immediately, didn’t do anything that can be considered bad at the time or has reported a sexual assault and of course the perp has to seen to be insane and unlikeable. We also expect that victims will tell all and one consistent story, but that’s not always the case in real rapes and very stressful situations and sometimes the victim may not want to admit to more degrading acts perpetrated on them (like sodomisation with objects) and among other things. The reality is often otherwise – most of the time the victim knows the rapist, and there is no injury because they use the minimal force needed to commit the crime. Sometimes there can be a long time between when the act occurs and the complaint, and there are factor that might make them seem less credible (especially when inclined to disbelief already) like their age, or that they are homeless or been drinking or taking drugs. Most importantly, the perp often doesn’t seem like the type to do such a thing.

    There’s more to it than that of course, but the really weird thing is that true false rape accusations mirror more the stereotypical “real rape” – often the description is of an unknown person, or one vaguely described, it’s typically claimed to be violent, they describe only vaginal penetration and often they do have a history of problems, including mental health issues. The best way of dealing with that is to do a proper investigation and uncover what the truth is. The best way of dealing with real rapes is also to do a proper investigation. The problem is, no one wants that, as any accusation at all of rape is deemed damaging, and I’ve seen often seen it said to be more damaging than being raped which tends to deny the victim and their need for justice.

  87. Clarence says:

    Hemlock:

    Here’s a dissenting view.
    Actually two:

    http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/
    http://www.realadultsex.com/archives/2011/06/those-who-are-falsely-accused-rape-and-victims-who-arent-believed-are-both-victims-

    It’s even more complicated than you believe, and this subject has been discussed a lot on here.
    My personal opinion is that between 8 and 25 percent of all rape allegations are false.
    You might also consider two things:
    A. We don’t know how many rapes are unreported. No one does. We also don’t know what percentage of reports not prosecuted for whatever reason were rapes and what were false reports. “He-said, she-said” cases are often known only to God.
    B. It is not true that 15/16 rapes are unreported. That statistic has been debunked countless times. It’s done by counting rape “clearance” in a way that is different than all other crimes. Indeed, in the UK if your case goes to trial the accused is convicted over half the time. I do not know of the percentage of convictions in US courts.

  88. superglucose says:

    “Quick test: if you read about how I had to drop out of college because of lies, ostracism, and hatred, and that gave you a warm, positive feeling of being right?”

    It gave me a cold, frigid feeling of “fuck there’s no way to fix this world, is there.”

  89. Jesse says:

    I’m sorry, I do not have time to read all the comments and this point may have already been made. ‘Histrionic’ comes from the Latin noun histronicus ‘pertaining to acting’ from histrio ‘actor’. I use the word histrionic to refer to anyonemale or female, who is overly dramatic and seems to engineer crises and high drama in their lives. I am a woman and do have a problem with this word being applied to women.

  90. lwife says:

    My husband is currently being falsely accused by a former client. He’s a therapist and she fell in love with him. When he told her he didn’t feel the same way, she sued him for rape. She has never filed a police report nor is there any evidence whatsoever, but it’s been a nightmare for me and my family. I truly feel for your experience. It has totally terrified my husband and I to know if any of our extended family ever found out about the accusation and he’s freaked out that people may actually believe it. He’s had to tell his clients and interns about the accusation in case they ever hear about it and it’s an awful conversation. Women who do this are truly disturbed.

  91. Flyingkal says:

    I share it partly because I think how people react to it is revealing, but much more because it’s part of how I got where I am. Having to deal with it, personally and emotionally and intellectually, was a serious part of the mental journey that led to me posting in a place like this.

    Talking about revealing. The part I reacted to the most was where you got a girlfriend, flew down to visit her, and “lost the living HELL out of my virginity, naturally.”
    Make of that what you wish…

  92. elfabla says:

    This thread is particularly disturbing and I will admit, confusing to me. If I was a stranger to this world and I read this thread I would think that rape and various levels of sexual assault were not common and rape is most often a creation from the mind of an unstable or vindictive woman. If only that was true, how sweet life would be. So in my experience 100% of the time women do not report rapes, 100% of the time they know their rapist, 100% of the time if a friend is told and that friend is also friends with the rapist or say a sibling of the rapist they will say a combination of “nobody will believe you, everyone knows youre on anti-depressants/ oh my god you are ruining his life, it wasn’t like it was really rape/ well nobody else saw it so you must be lying/ why would you say that, are you trying to hurt him, what did he ever do to you/ he was probabling drunk and didn’t know what he was doing, thats not rape”. In my experience if you are raped by someone you know and statistically most victims know their rapist, 100% of the time, for the act of telling anyone the person raped you, you will lose friends and 100% of the time you will hear people joking about how popular or desirable you must think you are to think someone would want to rape you. 100% of the time women who do not report rapes don’t partly because they expect their jury will be made up of people just like the people they have encountered, people who KNOW that they are liars. I can only imagine those lovely individuals are out there now writing on message boards about THEIR personal experience of witnessing a false rape accusation. In theory everybody agrees rape=bad but we like to imagine that these rapists all have monsters written on their heads and I have yet to meet a person who is willing to believe that any of their friends or family could do this. So no I have never witnessed a person being harmed by an accusation of rape, I have only seen people rally around those who were accused and when the emphasis is again placed on false accuations I hear the echos of all the people that have looked me in the eye, looked my friends in the eye and tell them “we KNOW you are lying”

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