A Story about the Invisibility of Male Rape

Hello all.  I thought about doing a nice introductory first post about me and my views and what I’m all about, but I think I’m still kind of figuring that stuff out and besides, I think it’s a little late for something like that now, isn’t it?  So I’m just going to jump right in.

[Trigger Warning for Rape]

Most people reading this blog are pretty familiar with rape statistics.  We look at the numbers and we’re horrified by the prevalence of rape all around us.  We look around at our friends and family and lovers and we think “Maybe one of them was raped and didn’t tell me.  How would I know?”  It’s sickening and disheartening.

But at the end of the day, they’re just numbers.  Women have more than numbers.  We have stories and rape shelters and visibility beyond just the statistics.  Sometimes its negative visibility.  Sometimes it’s really disgusting visibility.  And sometimes, that very visibility is what gives female rape victims a support system.  One can go one the internet and find any number of strong, successful women who have survived sexual assault.  Women like Jaclyn Friedman who have yelled a rallying cry for strength against sexual assault, who have written books and blogs and started whole movements and created safe spaces for abused women to lick their wounds in the comfort of friends who understand them.  I’m not trying to belittle the experiences of female survivors, or deny the horrors they have to go through whether or not they come forward with their experiences of rape.  I’m not trying to create an oppression olympics between male and female survivors, or denying the really bad shit that comes from rape of women having visibility.

But I have yet to see men talk about their abuse and how they have healed from it.  I have yet to see men join in solidarity in a community of kindness and safety, of healing.  I have yet to see one man turn to another and say “I know what you’re going through, and what you’re feeling is okay.”  I’ve yet to even hear about experiences of male survivors of sexual assault and rape more personal than a list of statistics extrapolated to real life.

It is quite likely that these things happen, just not in the areas of the internet that I frequent.  But when I think about how easy it is to trip over a female survivor safe space, or how easy it is to hear about an uplifting, painful story of a female survivors road to healing, it becomes clear to me that if this happens, it does not happen nearly enough.  Male rape, unlike that of women, is all but invisible in mainstream media and discourse.

I cannot alone give visibility to male survivors of rape.  I can’t provide the sort of community that visibility can create.  I can’t tell male survivors I’ve been where they have been and I know how they feel.  Hell, I can’t even refer them to a sexual assault hotline that I have any confidence is any help for men.  All I can give is a personal story, instead of statistics.  I can inject something personal about an issue that is almost completely talked about in statistics, and maybe do my part in making the issue of male rape more visible.  So that is what I shall do, under the cut.  Once again, trigger warning.

One day, I was having dinner in a diner with a man I love very much.  He’d been taking a recent breakup very hard, and I wanted to try to cheer him up.  We talked about a lot of things and generally had a pretty good time until, while we were drinking coffee, the subject turned to a mutual friend of ours.

Neither of us were best pleased with this mutual friend, not the least because she had gone a long way towards initiating the breakup that was causing my friend so much pain.  It was obvious to both of us that she wanted my friend, but he wasn’t interested for obvious reasons.  As the conversation went on, he got more and more visibly uncomfortable, and i was getting worried.

“So… I had sex with her,”  He said, finally.  I was shocked, because he had been going on and on about how he had wanted nothing to do with her.  With the statement, he seemed to shrink in on himself, and got smaller and smaller as he described what had happened.  He told me how they had been hanging out together and how she had brought up his ex and started wearing him down, bringing up all the shit that he had been going through before the breakup.  When he was depressed and upset and emotionally vulnerable, that’s when she pushed him for sex he didn’t want.  He felt guilty and ashamed after, and I was horrified by what I heard and that he would describe such an experience as “having sex”.  He’d had no other words, though.  He hadn’t been tied down or pushed down or violently sodomized.  He’d been on top of her, and he’d had and erection so in his mind, and in the public discourse around male rape, no rape — or even assault — could have happened.

It didn’t end there, though.  When a women says she was raped, she’ll generally be met with skepticism and slut shaming, but there will usually be some close friend who can help her through it and be a support through the internal and external horrors she will have to go through.  But if my friend were to say that he was raped or assaulted by a girl smaller than him and deeply entrenched in his friend group, well, all of his close friends would have laughed in his face.  My friend was well known for being something of a horn dog, so to his friends minds, there’s not WAY he wouldn’t want sex from someone who so obviously wanted him.

He had no way to avoid her, either.  His abusive parents simply LOVED this girl and invited her over all the time, for one thing.  Even if they didn’t, avoiding her, without explaining WHY (which, of course, he couldn’t) would mean completely isolating himself from his entire social circle.  So he had to go on like everything was all right.

It got even worse, though.  Before she assaulted him, they had planned a trip together with a couple of friends, and she had payed for his part because he was strapped for cash.  After the assault, he had no way to bow out of the non-refundable trip without looking like a complete ass to his entire social circle.  So he went along.  The other friends on the trip saw nothing wrong with leaving the two of them alone, even though he asked them not to, and he ended up sharing a hotel room with his rapist.  The only thing he could do was make it explicitly clear that he wanted no sex at all ever.

Naturally, she got drunk, stripped naked, and decided it was a wonderful idea to give him a blowjob while he was sleeping.

At this point, you may be spluttering in rage and shouting “what the FUCK!?” over and over.  Don’t worry, this is normal;  It’s what I did when I first heard what she did.  The worst part is that even though this is SO OBVIOUSLY RAPE OH MY GOD YOU DON’T PERFORM SEX ACTS ON SLEEPING PEOPLE WITHOUT NEGOTIATING CONSENT ARRRRRRRRG, there was absolutely NO WAY he could tell any of his friends about this (especially the male ones) with out them replying with some variation of “Dude, you got your dick wet, what are you complaining about?”  And that, I’m sure I don’t have to tell you, is seriously, SERIOUSLY fucked up.

This is what “boys will be boys” and “men are animals who want sex all the time and will do anything to get it” means for men.  This is what the idea that men always want sex always all the time means.  It means that “no” never really means “no”.  This is rape culture, and it seriously fucks men over.

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123 Responses to A Story about the Invisibility of Male Rape

  1. anon says:

    i don’t know quite where this is going to go because there are so many different and difficult things to say.

    i am a male (at least that’s what it says on my drivers license) who has been sexually assaulted on several occasions. only one of them by a man. only one of them (the same) by a stranger. of the others, all female, some were bullies who had already been physically violent to me for some time. others were partners, even ones who lived by ‘no means no’ and ‘enthusiastic consent’ … until it was my ‘no’ they were ignoring.

    i have also been pressured or manipulated into sex. i have split that out from the sexual assaults to make it clear that i was talking about forcible nonconsensual sex acts previously, and am talking about consenting (but reluctantly or otherwise dubiously) here. i didn’t like that either, but it wasn’t, in my mind, the same thing as the others, and i think it’s not right to describe that as rape/sexual assault. primarily because it devalues the horror that should be associated with the word rape, and makes it harder and more painful to talk about sexual assault because you have to spell the whole fucking thing out to distinguish it from the ‘pressure’ thing.

    the difference, in my head anyway, is powerlessness. in the pressure case, you might not want sex but you still have the power to choose (of course i am excluding any case where the pressure includes threats or other stuff that takes away that power). in the other cases, the helplessness, the inability to prevent it happening is part of why it is so much a violation. that and the fact that your own body betrays you. (people often don’t realise that. especially for males. this is why the whole ‘erection=consent’ lie has to be burned and buried)

    this doesn’t mean i think the pressure thing is good or healthy. but it should be called something else.

    you may disagree. i only know that i search inside myself and genuinely have no ill feelings about the pressure/manipulation cases. but the sexual assaults still hurt if i think too much about them. like people in the 1 in 6 thread i have been crying this evening.

    at the same time i know that my experiences have been mild compared to those of other people, including the many friends who have confided in me. most, strangely, i haven’t confided in back. i think i feel stupid next to them. the things they went through fill me with horror and by comparison what i went through was nothing – wasn’t even the most damaging thing has that happened to me (i mean, it was damaging. other stuff was worse tho.)

    sometimes when i get like this i turn to this astounding music video. it is hard to watch but powerful in a good way in the end. note: it is not triggery in any sexual kind of way. there is violent injury tho. to me it is a metaphorical thing. if you can deal with the violence i recommend watching it through because… just because.

  2. doctormindbeam says:

    This needed to be said. Thank you.

  3. Danny says:

    My friend was well known for being something of a horn dog, so to his friends minds, there’s not WAY he wouldn’t want sex from someone who so obviously wanted him.
    Someone that’s kinda known for having an active sex life not being believed when they say they were raped. If you swap out “with that way she was dressed” for “well he is a guy…” it sounds a lot like slut shaming…

    But yes when it comes to support/help (on a personal level or otherwise) men don’t have a lot of options.

  4. Laura says:

    Girls are, or at least used to be, raised with the message that you can always say no. My mother didn’t talk to me about sex much at all but she did tell me that, and that if you say no you don’t owe anyone a reason. I told my daughter the same thing. Do boys get that, I wonder? If I’d had a son I know I would have talked to him about respecting women but I don’t know that I would have talked to him about not having to share his body with anyone if he didn’t want to.

  5. Shora says:

    anon, I first would like to say that my heart goes out to you and I’m sorry you have endured the things you have.

    I do not mean to demean and minimize your experiences by calling what happened to my friend rape, or sexual assault. I used those terms because those are the terms with which he himself defined his experiences, and it is among my deepest beliefs that survivors be able to define their experiences in whatever ways they want or need to without anyone second guessing those definitions.

    I also think that it is unhelpful to all survivors everywhere to create a hierarchy of who has had the worst experiences and whose experiences are not that bad. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter who experienced worse. It matters that each individual survivor get the compassion and the help that they need to heal. It matters that no one should experience rape, assault, or coercion, and that all have complete agency over their own bodies.

    You yourself have described your experiences as not as bad as some of your friends and people who have confided in you. If it helps you to define your experiences that way, then that is absolutely your right. However, some people may be bar themselves from getting the support and help they need, or struggle with self-blame and self-hatred for falling apart so much when really it wasn’t THAT bad, why be such a whiny git? I don’t think anyone deserves to feel alone because they feel that something that deeply harmed them isn’t that bad and they’re just being weak. I think that is a crying shame, so I don’t believe in labeling some people’s experiences as worse than others. It just doesn’t help anyone.

    You may think that I am full of shit. You are absolutely allowed to think that. You probably will have a point, as this is not something I have personal experience with. I just wanted to give my take on this issue, because as flawed as I am, and as much privilege as I have in this, my friend’s plight has struck me deeply.

  6. Shora says:

    Mm, I think the idea behind it comes from a very different place than slut-shaming, though. With slut shaming it’s kind of like “Well, you did x, y, and z so you deserved it” and with the other way it’s kind of a “Well, why wouldn’t you want that?” with the added insinuation that if he DIDN’T want it, he’s not a real man or gay or pathetic or something.

    Not to say that either one is worse, of course. It’s just interesting to not the very different frames of mind that lead to the same result/conclusion.

  7. anon says:

    shora, no, i don’t think you are full of shit at all.

    i think you’ve maybe misunderstood what i said, or else i said it wrong. either are possible. probably the latter.

    i wasn’t attempting to label, or minimize, or make a hierarchy of anyone else’s experiences. i am reflecting only on how i personally feel, felt. any comparisons are only relating from the inside how one thing affected me vs how another thing affected me, not how they would affect anyone else or how they should be perceived by others. people aren’t interchangeable. people process things differently. everything you say in your 4th paragraph, i agree with. you didn’t need to explain because that’s what i’ve lived.

  8. Shora says:

    Oh, okay then. I guess I misunderstood. Sorry for implicitly accusing you of making hierarchies ^_^;;

    For what it’s worth (which i suspect is very little) I’m really, really sorry for what you’ve gone through, and I hope you have people around you who help and make things easier.

  9. noahbrand says:

    As I mentioned in my first libido post, I found it very difficult to say “Not tonight, honey” to a lover who I’d cheerfully had sex with many times, and intended to continue schtupping in the future. Not wanting sex even once, that particular evening, was painfully difficult for me to admit to, and felt like a real blow to my sense of identity and masculinity.

    That’s just my experience; I don’t claim it as universal, but it’s one reference point.

  10. Tamen says:

    I think they’re more alike than you think. Slut-shaming is often on the form that if a woman is promiscuous she looses the right to say no – more so than that she deserved it.
    Men also have lost their right to say no – or rather they didn’t have it to begin with.

    A woman saying no risk being insulted by being called a slut. A man saying no risk being insulted by being called gay. I personally don’t consider being called gay an insult, but it’s perfectly clear that it is meant as an insult and attack. And it’s exactly the same reasoning behind both responses – trying to lay the fault for being rejected on the other party.

  11. Danny says:

    With slut shaming it’s kind of like “Well, you did x, y, and z so you deserved it” and with the other way it’s kind of a “Well, why wouldn’t you want that?” with the added insinuation that if he DIDN’T want it, he’s not a real man or gay or pathetic or something.

    I just don’t think they are that different. In the case of a woman x, y, and z could be the way she dressed, the way she danced with that one guy earlier, and/or how kept letting that guy buy her drinks. If she did those things then is declared she must have wanted it. For a guy x, y, and z could be the fact that its a guy, the fact that he’s straight (or assume he’s straight and totally ignore any other sexual orientation that’s not hetero), and/or the presence of an erection. If those three fall into place (and all three aren’t even necessary) they are regarded as a surefire sign that he wanted to have sex (but with the erection almost anyone with a penis will tell you erections aren’t light switches that can be turned on/off at will sometimes you want one but it won’t happen and sometimes you don’t want one but can’t keep it down).

    Which of course leads to “well you shouldn’t have been dressed like that”/”but you had an erection” type nonsense. Dressing a certain way nor having an erection are proper indicators of sexual desire/consent.

    That’s why I say it sounds like slut shaming.

  12. Michael says:

    I think I disagree with you about slut-shaming in at least some cases. I think that sometimes the line of thought goes “well, she consented in these other occasions, so we have no reason to think she didn’t actually consent this time, and has decided for some reason to cry rape” or more crudely “she wanted it.” Not that she deserved to be raped, but that no rape actually occurred. Understood that way, the case of the “horn-dog” does look a lot like slut-shaming, on the grounds that guys always want sex.

  13. Shora says:

    Hmmm, on second thought, I think you guys are right; it’s not much different at all, is it?

  14. Tamen says:

    If you had a son you certainly should. I implore every to extend this lesson to their boys as well. I wish I had been told a more balanced message on this rather than the one-sided one about how girls have the right to say no and that it always should be respected by me. Then it probably would’ve been much easier for me to reconcile the anger I felt against the expectation from around me that I should feel lucky.

  15. Michael says:

    I didn’t. I did get a talk about predators/kidnappers, but they were older strangers (and male I think?) in the examples – stuff like “don’t get into cars with people you don’t know” and “if the person claims your mom sent them, but they don’t know the password, run away.” In Boy Scouts (back in the old days, before the Mormons took over), the talk extended to relatives- the creepy uncle stereotype was invoked, if I remember correctly.

    Similarly to Noahbrand, I’ve found it hard to turn down lovers. I usually try to compromise somehow – “I’m too tired now, but in the morning I’ll make it up to you” – or by offering some sort of icing (not only sex in the morning, but also something else). I usually also have to assure them that it isn’t somehow reflecting badly on them as woman and/or that they really are attractive, it’s just that I’ve had too much to drink and can’t get it up or had a really long day and will fall asleep as soon as I get horizontal, and the like. I’m not sure that I’d be taken seriously if I said “I’m just not in the mood” or something along those lines.

  16. Shora says:

    Everyone absolutely SHOULD give this message to children of all genders! The problem is that a lot of people, even good, well-meaning, educated people with their hearts in the right place done even THINK to. These tropes are so subversive and pervasive throughout our culture that something that seems as obvious as “boys are allowed to say no as a complete sentence too” is completely missed by people with think about this thing all the time.

    It’s not because they’re malicious or misandric. It’s just that it’s difficult to pick up on on the subtle ways that culture can screw with us.

  17. doctormindbeam says:

    Speaking only for myself, I was taught very clearly that “no means no” and that I should practice safe sex, and that it wasn’t okay if an adult wanted to have sexual contact with me, but I have no recollection of being taught about resisting rape or sexual assault myself.

  18. doctormindbeam says:

    In a way, that seems even worse than not having an implicit right to say no. Can you imagine if we told women that they couldn’t say no — that the farthest they could go was to delay sex and make apologetic excuses for not delivering it immediately on demand? It’s perverse.

  19. noahbrand says:

    To be fair, whiskey dick really is an issue; sometimes “in the morning” just means “in the morning.” 😉

  20. Eagle32 says:

    I have a comment for the author of this article.

    One thing that always irks me to the nth degree is when there’s talk about why men don’t let on to the fact that they’ve been seriously hurt by women/girls, the usual reasoning dolled out is “It’s unmasculine to know you’ve been violated. You’ll be deemed a pussy, gay, etc.”

    You ask the question, Shora:

    “But I have yet to see men talk about their abuse and how they have healed from it. I have yet to see men join in solidarity in a community of kindness and safety, of healing. I have yet to see one man turn to another and say “I know what you’re going through, and what you’re feeling is okay.” I’ve yet to even hear about experiences of male survivors of sexual assault and rape more personal than a list of statistics extrapolated to real life.”

    While the knee-jerk reaction is to point to pride and insecurity for men who have been hurt, there’s another reason hardly anyone (to my knowledge) even bothers to consider:

    Society has created a culture and environment where a woman can say and do whatever they want to a man and get away with it!

    Think of all those female predators and child molesters getting lighter sentences in court. The wives who beat their husbands. Those female teachers who sleep with their male students and only receive a slap on the wrist. Those females who falsely accuse a man of rape with little consequence. And let’s not forget the females who insult and belittle men and can count on high fives because “All men are jerks”. What message do you think does this send to male victims and to men in general? What about boys?

    Not a positive one, I can tell you.

    Here’s another example of just how far society has fallen in supporting boys and men:

    In short: An eleven year old boy is attacked in broad daylight, pinned to the ground (partially by the neck) by two 13-14 year old girls who proceed to strip off his bathing suit. He flails about to break free and cries “Mommy” as the girls laugh and a third records it all on video, posts it on youtube.com afterwards. The police label it a “Prank” and can’t press any charges. The mother then refuses to take action due to this.

    So we have a boy who’s boundaries were seriously violated by 13-14 year old girls and he can’t get any justice because the police label it a “Prank”. You can bet the girls are laughing all the way to the bank on this, knowing the best they’ll receive is punishment from their parents.

    Incidents like this send out a major message to boys and men: Don’t bother going to anyone if your tormenters are girls or women. They’ll still get away with it.

    While I sound a mite personal in this, it’s only because I was a victim of bullying myself from both genders in the past. Boys and girls, men and women dealt their fair share of punishment and torment to me.

    Yet, I’m having trouble addressing what the girls and women did to me because I haven’t found one single article on girls bullying boys except an outdated one. I’m always told “You’re a minority/an anomaly”. Yeah, that makes me feel so much better knowing where soceity’s priorities lie.

    The worst of it is even people who appear to care just don’t get it. One time, at work, some people were engaged in small talk. One of them was a mother of a daughter and talking about her struggles with girl bullies in school. “Girls can be so mean to other girls” she said.

    I remarked “They can be mean to boys as well.”

    Silence. The mother goes “Umm..” then sits there before the conversation resumes. I sulk back to what I’m being paid to do.

    So you can see why hardly any male comes forward with his troubles. It’s not just about machismo or some form of masculine pride. It’s also about girls and women getting away with inflicting harm on men and boys.

    All I want is for this side to be acknowledged along with the general “Toxic Messages of Masculanity” approach. Because everytime I keep hearing the latter only applied, it makes me shrink back into the shadows.

  21. banned says:

    Well this is kind of complex. As far as sexual assault is concerned, if you asked me I’d say I experienced it once at school when I was around 15. But not until many years later would I have called it that. I just knew that it was very upsetting and something kept hidden.

    But by many people’s definition I probably had a lot more of it than I would think myself. My ex regularly forced herself on me – often when I was asleep. I didn’t see it as a bad thing because I trusted her and I knew that she wouldn’t hurt me. And since she got pleasure from it that was enough reason for me to play along. And also I know that if it got really nasty I could have fought her off so, unlike most women in that situation, I didn’t have to feel helpless. If you love and trust somebody and they reciprocate then nothing else really matters. But with anyone else, I hate unwanted physical contact – even the harmless pinch I never feel comfortable with.

    It’s very nice to see some people speaking out against the problems with male abuse ( I mean the abuse of men to be clear). Solving those problems will be very hard if not impossible. I can’t see men accomplishing this in the same way women manage to bring female abuse to public attention. Determining why that is would probably have to come before trying to fix it.

    Either way, thank you for writing this. I can’t word my appreciation enough.

  22. AB says:

    I have to disagree that they’re the same. Looking at my social psychology textbook, many of the claims of the rape myth acceptance scale (which deals primarily with male-on-female rape) aren’t about the woman wanting sex, but about her failing to adequately avoid it. For example:

    “If a girl engages in necking or petting and she lets things get out of hands, it is her own fault if her partner forces sex on her”/“If a woman gets drunk to a party and has intercourse with a man she’s just met there, she should be considered “fair game” to other males at the party who want to have sex with her too, whether she wants to or not”.

    In both these cases, it is clear that the woman’s wish for sex, or lack thereof, is of no consequence (“her partner forces sex on her”/“whether she wants to or not”), and merely giving indications that she wants sex is enough.

    The same goes for the short skirt defence. The idea is rarely that a woman wearing a short skirt actually wants sex, but rather that she’s giving the impression of wanting it, and men (eternally horny as they are) can’t be expected to distinguish. Or alternatively, that women deserve rape as punishment for being teases.

  23. AB says:

    Banned, I think this really highlights the need for clearer rules about sexual conduct. After being exposed to a lot of material about domestic and sexual violence against men, I’ve taken to asking more if something is alright. But it doesn’t seem to matter, because in all cases, consent has already been (implicitly) given

    My boyfriend once told how his ex woke him by giving him a blowjob and how hot he found it. I guess that technically, it doesn’t mean it would be OK for me to do the same, but I still felt rather silly asking. I’ve also begun to stop it when I’m about to slap him, but he finds it annoying and keep telling me to go on with it. According to him, it doesn’t hurt and he doesn’t feel threatened, so he has no bigger problem with me expressing myself physically than verbally.

    On one hand, it doesn’t feel right to engage in a behaviour I wouldn’t accept in him, but on the other, I would also be treating him like a child if I didn’t trust his ability to give consent. I think that in a lot of cases that look like abuse, both parties are acting according to an unspoken assumption which they both agree on.

    Of course, in other cases, one party disagrees with the assumption, but doesn’t feel justified in their disagreement (i.e. doesn’t want sex, but doesn’t feel they can say no), which is why I’m in favour of the ‘yes means yes’ model of consent. But it is worth remembering that the the Cosmo style of non-communication does seem to work adequately for some people.

  24. banned says:

    “On one hand, it doesn’t feel right to engage in a behaviour I wouldn’t accept in him”

    Damn right. And it shouldn’t only “not feel right”.

    “I would also be treating him like a child if I didn’t trust his ability to give consent.”

    That question shouldn’t even occur to you. Either you approve of violence or not – he doesn’t get to decide that for you or it is you who’s being treated like a child. Also, consent only goes so far, beyond that his consent is invalid. I’m not sure about the laws in the US, but in the UK any consent he gives to you slapping him is invalid and that means you’re committing a crime each and every time you do it no matter what he says.

  25. Michael says:

    Of course.

  26. Michael says:

    I agree and should add for the record that no one ever actually told me all of that- it’s been cultural all the way.

    Relatedly,
    Have there been any studies on the economy of sex in relationships? Do people strategically provide or withhold sex? How are differing libidines managed? How do, e.g., a morning person and a night person in a relationship work it out? Answers to those might provide some interesting context and food for thought.

  27. AB says:

    You do realise your argument would render most S&M illegal, right? Not to mention martial arts practices, a good deal of stage fights and LARPing, and all the “Say something deliberately offensive/insulting, hold up your hands in mock fear, and giggle as someone else slaps you on the top of your head” I see among my male friends.

    I’m not sure I’d accept that kind of limits on freedom for the little safety it can bring. It’s far better to pay attention if someone doesn’t seem comfortable with the situation, and make sure to talk about what’s OK and what’s not beforehand.

  28. Danny says:

    “If a girl engages in necking or petting and she lets things get out of hands, it is her own fault if her partner forces sex on her”/“If a woman gets drunk to a party and has intercourse with a man she’s just met there, she should be considered “fair game” to other males at the party who want to have sex with her too, whether she wants to or not”.

    In both these cases, it is clear that the woman’s wish for sex, or lack thereof, is of no consequence (“her partner forces sex on her”/“whether she wants to or not”), and merely giving indications that she wants sex is enough.
    Exactly. The line of reasoning that rapists who would act on women in such positions is that since she was necking she must have wanted sex (in comparison to “oh he had an erection then he must have wanted it”) or that a drunk woman that had sex with one guy is “fair game” (in comparison to “he’s a guy, I’m a hot attractive woman so I know he wants me).

    That’s not to say there’s nothing to what you say. I just think there’s more going on that what you (or even I) say. Multiple forces at work.

  29. Shora says:

    Uhhmmm… I’m really not sure where you are disagreeing with me here? Because, yea, I agree with everything you said.

    Perhaps I didn’t make it clear enough, but when I said “Men don’t do these things” I didn’t mean “Because they’re silly menz with silly menz brains always so macho, I have NO idea why! hurr hurr hurr” I meant “Because we live in a toxic culture that doesn’t allow men to express themselves fully or be vulnerable without retribution.”

    I know full well that we live in a culture that thinks that men and boys can’t be attacked by women and girls, and if they ARE, well, there’s something wrong with THEM (being weak, being gay, being a sissy, whatever) not something wrong with the women and girls for being monstrous little cretins. That’s kind of what I was trying to address in the whole post, particularly this point;

    “But if my friend were to say that he was raped or assaulted by a girl smaller than him and deeply entrenched in his friend group, well, all of his close friends would have laughed in his face.”

    Why would they have laughed in his face? Because women can’t hurt men, not really, and if one DID, well, there’s something seriously wrong with that man, isn’t there? It’s that kind of thinking i was addressing with this post. I didn’t spell it out because it seemed so obvious to me.

    It’s something I’ve seen from the other side as well “Women act this way because their crazy ladybrains make them! Harr Harr aren’t women silly!” And I go “Grr no! women act that way because of x, y, z social pressure TELLING them if they don’t then there will be consequences! These things don’t happen in a vacuum!! The same obviously goes for men.

  30. Danny says:

    Good point Eagle (you the same Eagle that hangs out at Feminist Critics?).

    Society has created a culture and environment where a woman can say and do whatever they want to a man and get away with it!
    I would dare say that this actually feeds into why men and boy victims don’t speak up. It seems to me that there is a bit of a double standard when it comes to addressing victims. People seem to be willing to move heaven, hell, and earth to figure out why female victims don’t speak up with crimes are committed against them but when wondering why male victims don’t speak up people want the conversation to start and end at “well its because they are insecure and are afraid of having their manhood questioned”. Almost like they want the discussion to be framed up in sense that there are plenty of external factors that keep female victims silent but male victims only have themselves to blame.

  31. Shora says:

    I’m currently in a relationship in which BDSM is a pretty big part of our sex life. I’m regularly tied down and hit with a variety of implements (crops, floggers, bare hands, ect.) often to the upper limits of my tolerance (which isn’t very high, to be honest). Things like this are heavily negotiated, and there is the occasional broken scene, but all and all the experience is deeply satisfying physically and emotionally.

    If you are uncomfortable doing something, then don’t do it. It’s the same if you are uncomfortable having done to you; no means no, and “no” is a complete sentence. If, however, you are comfortable pushing limits (as I was) and you carefully negotiate consent (as we did) it can be very, very rewarding.

    However, NO ONE should EVER enter a bdsm scene with cosmo-style communication. It is some heavy shit, and explicit communication is an absolute requirement.

  32. AB says:

    No, the reasoning of male rapists raping women is usually that they can get away with it. Or alternatively, that women owe sex to them for being such teases. The reasoning of rape apologists, when it comes to women, is that she obviously didn’t make sure enough that he was aware that she didn’t want it. Or alternatively, that women who don’t act sufficiently conservative or demure deserve to get punished for their behaviour.

    When it comes to men being raped by women, the reasoning of rape apologists is usually that it couldn’t be bad for him, since he was a guy, or that he would have easily been able to say no and/or force her away from him, since he was a man. It’s shaming all the same, but the reasoning is different.

    In the case of women, it is acknowledged that they might not want sex, but if they aren’t clear enough about signalling it, or if they tempt or tease men, then they deserve to have it forced on them nonetheless. In the case of men (outside prison), people are usually not talking about a deserved violation, but rather that there was no violation to begin with.

  33. Shora says:

    You are absolutely allowed to define your experiences however you want, just as it is your right to draw your boundaries wherever you want. If it helps you to define any of your experiences as rape or assault, then do so. If it doesn’t help you, then don’t. No one gets to define your experiences for you.

    As far as the problems of male abuse go, I think they’re not impossible to solve. They can’t be solved the same way women did for female abuse, because I think that female abuse and male abuse come from different assumptions, culturally. Especially because male abuse is so invisible. I think a lot of what needs to happen is erasing the stigma of being a victim, and also eradicating this idea that if men are harmed by women, there’s something wrong with the men for being weak.

    You’re very welcome. It’s something that’s been in my head since this happened, and I’m glad you liked it.

  34. Shora says:

    “Almost like they want the discussion to be framed up in sense that there are plenty of external factors that keep female victims silent but male victims only have themselves to blame.”

    Which is really disgusting and victim-blaming. Especially because culturally, there’s this message that if men experience abuse, it’s a joke and it’s their fault for being weak and being effected by it, or even for letting it happen in the first place.

    I’d imagine (although I obviously have no personal experience with this) That masculinity is a huge part of many men’s identities, and having it questioned has an extremely powerful effect. I mean, think of all the gender policing that goes on around men! It has a huge impact of the friendships and social circles of men, but when it comes to abuse, they’re being silly for worrying about being masculine? It makes no sense.

  35. mythago says:

    Men also have lost their right to say no – or rather they didn’t have it to begin with.

    Exactly. Or perhaps that “the right to say no” is a non sequitur; men never want to say no, so how can there even be a right to do something they would never want to do anyway?

  36. doctormindbeam says:

    Well, on the question of the economy of sex, I can’t tell you how often I’ve seen Cosmo et al. advocate using sex as a weapon in relationships. “He won’t buy you the new dress? Don’t give it up for him! He buys you the new shoes? Reward him!” It turns sex into a currency and a weapon and treats your significant other like an animal to be trained. (Which fits nicely into the stereotypical “your man is a dog, so train him” line of thought.)

  37. mythago says:

    I think they do more now than in the past. Certainly when I was growing up girls, let alone boys, weren’t taught things like “your body is yours and you have a right to who does or doesn’t touch you”. I don’t think I’m unusual or Parent of the Year in this regard, but my daughters and son have been brought up to think that their bodies are their own and that “no” is a complete sentence. My son is a little young to read The Gift of Fear as his sisters have, but he will.

  38. mythago says:

    You believe that if a guy and his girlfriend are into spanking her, that each and every time he spanks her with her enthusiastic consent he’s committing a crime, and he’s wrong because he wouldn’t like being on the receiving end?

    Yes, in an abusive relationship where consent is a sham, “do you mind if I hit you?” is bullshit. But in a relationship where both partners understand that “no” is the default and there are no consequences to saying “no”, that’s a little different.

  39. mythago says:

    And of course for men who were assaulted by a male perpetrator, there’s gay-shaming. Hey, maybe you didn’t *want* it the way you would have obviously wanted sex from a broad, but now you’ve been made somebody’s bitch and maybe you really did like it, amirite? (Please understand that the gender of the abuser makes the rape “better” or “worse.”)

    I have so many close male friends who have been raped and told nobody else that, just as with my female friends, it’s a surprise to me if I found out a guy I know wasn’t raped at some point. One of my friends, who was abused by his biological father, is very out about his abuse and is an advocate for male abuse survivors. I respect him enormously for this, even though it makes some people in our social circle uncomfortable. You know, too bad for them.

  40. mythago says:

    Wow, editing fail. What I was trying to say at the end of that first paragraph was “Please understand that I am not trying to say that the gender of the abuser makes the rape “better” or “worse”.”

  41. Danny says:

    Oh I (and probably most people here) took that to mean that you were speaking about how society thinks about male rape victims, but thanks for the clarify. And you’re right.

    Male raped by a female – “Oh he’s so lucky!”

    Male raped by male – “Oh you must have really wanted it.”

    Speaking of the presumption that men want sex all the time (which has been mentioned here) it ties into the “hetero is good homo is bad” thing. So if a guy is raped by a woman its not that big a deal because men are supposed to want sex from women all the time but if a guy is raped by a man then its bad because even though men are supposed to want sex all the time its bad to want homosexual sex. Or at least that’s what the script of being a man tell us.

  42. Eagle32 says:

    I’m really shaking my head at this paragraph:

    “I’d imagine (although I obviously have no personal experience with this) That masculinity is a huge part of many men’s identities, and having it questioned has an extremely powerful effect. I mean, think of all the gender policing that goes on around men! It has a huge impact of the friendships and social circles of men, but when it comes to abuse, they’re being silly for worrying about being masculine? It makes no sense.”

    Masculinity is only PARTIALLY why men don’t talk to people about being abused by women or girls.

    Did you even go to the link I provided? About that 11-year old who was stripped by two 13-14 year old girls while a third videotaped the whole thing? Where the police label it a prank and recommend the mother don’t press any charges?

    You think that boy was worried about his masculinity being questioned? I’d say he was worried about other things like the BLATANT INJUSTICE and APATHY towards what happened to him! Not just by police but by certain segments of commentators. Meanwhile the girls who did this to him can live free knowing that abusing boys like him, violating their personal boundaries, is perfectly acceptable since the worst they’ll get is a scolding by their parents.

    You also think I was worried about my masculinity being questioned when those girls and women hurt me as a young man and young adult? Sorry but I had other stuff on my mind that regulated questions of masculinity to the bottom of my list of grievances.

    Again, Masculinity is only a part of it. It also has to do with women and girls allowed to get away with whatever the hell they want to do to men and boys. It’s not the be all and end all of motives surrounding refusal to disclose serious trauma.

    As far as making it clear before:

    Shora: “Perhaps I didn’t make it clear enough, but when I said “Men don’t do these things” I didn’t mean “Because they’re silly menz with silly menz brains always so macho, I have NO idea why! hurr hurr hurr” I meant “Because we live in a toxic culture that doesn’t allow men to express themselves fully or be vulnerable without retribution.”

    We also live in a culture that allows women and girls to get away with murder against men and boys. Do you agree or not? Because I have yet to see you acknowledge this. Instead, you’re going back to “Questioning of masculinity”.

    Danny, yes it’s the same me that posts on Feminist Critics.

  43. doctormindbeam says:

    Meanwhile the girls who did this to him can live free knowing that abusing boys like him, violating their personal boundaries, is perfectly acceptable since the worst they’ll get is a scolding by their parents.

    It also has to do with women and girls allowed to get away with whatever the hell they want to do to men and boys.

    We also live in a culture that allows women and girls to get away with murder against men and boys.

    I’m going to need you to moderate your commentary there. The truth is simply not that cut and dry. Not all women get off free every time, women and girls can’t simply do whatever they want, women are not always acquitted of murder, and for the vast majority of people, abuse will not be treated lightly.

    Women are not your enemy.

  44. aliarasthedaydreamer says:

    For me (night person) in a relationship with my boyfriend (morning person), the person whose time it isn’t is strongly encouraged to initiate if they’re horny at the other person’s time. We also tend to have a lot of sex in the late morning or early evening, when one person isn’t going “mphrlgh I love you but I’m asleep.”

  45. aliarasthedaydreamer says:

    My boyfriend and I worked “wake up with a blowjob” out ahead of time. I read something on the internet raving about it, was like “hey, would you like it if I did this to you sometime?” and then that was that. This means that in the morning, if he’s asleep and I’m awake and horny, I can consider him defaulting to yes instead of the usual no. Of course, that’s still totally revocable, but to date it has always gone well.

  46. Danny says:

    @doctormindbeam:
    I’m going to need you to moderate your commentary there. The truth is simply not that cut and dry. Not all women get off free every time, women and girls can’t simply do whatever they want, women are not always acquitted of murder, and for the vast majority of people, abuse will not be treated lightly.
    At the risk of getting on your bad side here I don’t think Eagle was trying to imply an “all” to the things you quoted from him but merely pointing out that it does indeed happen (just as you could say the same for some men).

    (On a side note when I posted on that “prank” I had a women come by my blog commenting that two girls stripping a boy isn’t as bad as the reverse and tried to say that if someone were to take vigilante justice against them it would be unfair to do to them what they did to him because girls have it worse but instead a whisper campaign, spreading nasty rumors, would make it even. BTW I brought it up in the context of revenge in relation to a previous post.)

  47. doctormindbeam says:

    It’s possible that he didn’t have bad intentions, but it doesn’t matter. I don’t like, and won’t allow, blanket accusations or generalizations to be made about any group here — men, women, blacks, tall people, old people, whatever. It’s at best argumentatively lazy, but more frequently dangerous. It helps foster stereotypical thought and pigeonholing. That’s antithetical to what we’re trying to accomplish here.

  48. Danny says:

    @AB:
    No, the reasoning of male rapists raping women is usually that they can get away with it. Or alternatively, that women owe sex to them for being such teases. The reasoning of rape apologists, when it comes to women, is that she obviously didn’t make sure enough that he was aware that she didn’t want it. Or alternatively, that women who don’t act sufficiently conservative or demure deserve to get punished for their behaviour.
    While that covers most instances of stranger rape (or met him earlier that night) that doesn’t cover things like rape of a wife or girlfriend. The belief is that said women can’t be raped because of the relationship they are in. Not a case of she didn’t clearly indicate no or that she deserved to be raped for her behavior, people think that no rape occurred.

    I’m sure you’ve seen that study that made its rounds on feminists sites a few months ago showing that when college aged guys were questioned about rape (namely would they do it) once the word rape itself was taken out of the questions but the questions were still about forced, coerced, or otherwise sex without full consent from the partner suddenly the “I’d do that/I did that” numbers went up. They’re thinking that no violation too place, similar to the logic used in female against male rape.

    But let me say again I am in no way trying to say that what you’re saying does not apply. It most certainly does (and in fact when it comes to male against female rape I’m better most cases fall under what you’re saying, just not all male against female rape). I just think there’s more at work than that.

  49. Eagle32 says:

    I don’t have any bad intentions. Never have. I’m simply talking about something deeply personal to me.

    I’ll tell you why that is. Well, a number of reasons really. And they all have to do with the abuse I suffered as a child and young man.

    #1 – When I was six years old, I was diagnosed autistic. For this label to be made official, I had to go to a hospital for all sorts of tests. The caregivers there forced me to participate in activities and scolded me for doing it wrong. One even yelled at me right in my face for getting the rules of one of them wrong. Some even went so far as to grab my arms and force them to make movements akin to what “normal” people do when playing games. Those caregivers were women.

    #2- Again, when I was six years old I was attacked three times by a mob of schoolkids whom took it upon themselves to gather outside the rear doors of the school and jump me all at once, grab the waistband of my pants and yank them down. Afterwards, they’d scamper off laughing and pointing at me. Girls participated in the act along with the boys.

    #3 – In high school, I was called “Weirdo”, “Strange”, and other names by the young women in addition to “Pussy”, “Faggot” and others by the young men.

    #4- When I was writing a story in my spare time in computer class, printing it up, a female peer came over and read it out loud in a mocking tone, tore it out of the printer and wrapped it around me like mummy skin, calling me “weirdo” as the other kids laughed. That contributed to me never writing again until I grew into adulthood.

    #5- I had a crush on a girl in computer class. I started helping her out with assignments when she struggled. She appreciated it so much that we then started talking about other things like feelings about life. Friendship blossomed. It didn’t matter that she had a boyfriend and even when she told me about it, I didn’t mind at all. So long as I had her as a friend, it’s all that mattered. Until the incident where she initiated a game of “Show me your underwear” with the others then tried to force me to participate by grabbing my pants, telling me to play along. I fought her off until she stopped, smirked and laughed with the others. That was the end of our friendship after her betrayal.

    #6 – The girl in #5 figures into this next incident. I was walking down the halls, face down and processing what happened between us. Next thing you know, I’m yanked up by the shirt collar and slammed against the lockers. A young man stares at me with fiery eyes then says “If you ever talk with my girlfriend again, I’ll kick your fucking ass!”. Standing beside him was the girl in my computer class. She grinned the whole time when this happened. Obviously her boyfriend.

    Now think of these incidences and imagine being told that what happened to you was an anomaly. You find it hard to talk to anybody about this except the few who know you from the inside out (and even they are skeptical). There are no articles available on Girls that bully boys, no acknowledgement of their harm from society. Instead, you get inundated with how boys bully boys, boys bully girls, and girls bully girls. Your boundaries that were violated don’t matter.

    Now I wasn’t sexually abused by a woman or a man. But what happened to me cannot be discounted because it stings to this day. Luckily, I’m writing a one-man play on these feelings. It’ll soon be complete.

    But that’s my only solace along with others who do care about me. Yet I’m not so sure if they do care or they’re just paying lip service. So this leaves my play as the sole means of validation because I sure as hell am not going to get it from outside sources.

    Sorry about the length of this comment. I also apologize if I came on to strong, but you do see where this rage comes from now.

    I think this will be my last reply on the topic as I don’t want to tangent away from the current discussion.

    Still, this is basically what happened to me and how I’m dealing with it. At least I’m not a victim anymore, just a survivor.

    Thank you for at least allowing a forum to share this anyway. Much appreciated.

  50. banned says:

    “You do realise your argument would render most S&M illegal, right? ”

    Well this is an interesting response because in the UK S&M is in fact illegal as ruled by court. I don’t actually agree with that ruling though. As I see it, there are two kinds of violence. The one being out of anger and hatred with the intention of doing harm and the other being as part of a game in an erotic fantasy. The first is unacceptable the second is not. But that is only my opinion.
    The ruling was justified with the line “violence is always evil regardless of consent”.

    You should also know that there’s more to violence than just the act itself. If, for example, you grow up witnessing violence between your parents, then this can be very damaging too.

  51. banned says:

    “You believe that if a guy and his girlfriend are into spanking her, that each and every time he spanks her with her enthusiastic consent he’s committing a crime, and he’s wrong because he wouldn’t like being on the receiving end?”

    See my comment above on this.

    To be clear:
    In some countries, yes this is a crime but I personally don’t agree with that.
    However, spanking and BDSM based violence is very different from using violence when arguing. The one is out of love and the other is out of anger. So, when it’s not part of a mutually consensual sexual act, then it is unacceptable even with somebody’s consent.

    The word “consent” is not a free pass, there are many limitations attached to it. Many of you might have given invalid consent for example if you signed a medical disclaimer that wasn’t clear or complete. And like I said above, in some instances consent is never valid – for example you can’t consent to being murdered.

  52. AB says:

    In my opinion, violence in anger doesn’t have to be bad. Or rather, it doesn’t have to be worse than the alternative and it doesn’t have to be non-consensual. There’s also a difference between carefully negotiated S&M, and the type of casual rowdiness I see among a lot of guys.

  53. ozymandias42 says:

    I think the essential difference comes down to consent. I can lightly thwack my boyfriend on the head when I’m mildly annoyed with him (or him to me– it’s reciporcal), because we have both agreed on this as an okay method of communication, and because if he or I said “no, stop” the “stop” would be immediately respected and followed with a lot of apologies. That’s clearly different from an abusive relationship, in which there was no negotiation (even the “I’m going to thwack you every time you say something that stupid” “kay” level of negotiation) and no ability to revoke consent.

  54. mythago says:

    However, spanking and BDSM based violence is very different from using violence when arguing

    While I agree with you, from the context it seemed as though the poster was describing a slap as part of BDSM play and not during a fight.

  55. Indeed – and it was said in a way that showed genuine compassion. Often when male survivors are discussed, our experience and pain is co-opted in order to make a “patriarchy hurts menz too” argument that at its core is actually about women rather than men.

    We need more honest discussions like this one which treat male victimization respectfully, treats us as real people and not as a means to an end in order to support a separate point.

    Thank you Shora.

  56. This was used against me when I disclosed my own rape experience. I was treated to “what man doesn’t want that”, “this guy has issues”, “can’t rape the willing”, “can’t rape a wet noodle”, “I wish a woman would rape me” and other lovely, mature and intellectual rape denials.

    This ignorant nonsense came from both knuckle-dragging alpha male wannabe males, women who clearly failed Human Sexuality 101 and even some feminists. The men peddling this were either too immature to even realize how stupid they sound or were engaging in the common practice of “policing the herd”. Policing the herd consists of shutting up or shouting down any man who exposes them to their own potential vulnerabilities. The women who treated me to so such vitriol were doing so on their expert, non-medical opinions that all men control all of their erections all the time. Then there were the feminists (some, not all) who engaged in such in order to make it clear that Womyn Don’t Rape Men – anything to deny or distract from the reality that there are female predators who target grown men as well as boys and other women.

    Ugh.
    Double Ugh.

  57. Yeah, I would say it is similar to slut-shaming in regard to the intended effect.

    Some examples:
    I am a man, there I always want sex all the time from any woman who offers.
    You wouldn’t have been hard if you didn’t want it (and 800,000,000 million variations of that ignorant b.s.).
    I was bigger, than her, therefore I should have been able to stop her.

    Then there are the rape deniers, both male and female:

    Women don’t rape.
    Women don’t rape men.
    Men can’t be raped.
    Men can’t be raped by women.

    Somedays, it is hard not to hate these ignorant, abusive so-and-so’s.

  58. When I first began speaking about sexual violence, I was taken by surprise by how many mothers approached me about their sons and consent. I was particularly struck by one mother, a survivor herself, who said she had never thought for a second that she would need to teach her son that he had the right to say no. She thanked me profusely and I’ve seen her online telling other mothers to teach their sons that they too have the right to say no and it should be respected.

    This message needs to be communicated and while it may seem obvious to some, it is anything but at present. Campaigns that “teach boys not to rape” completely miss the mark. Campaigns that teach enthusiastic consent and boundaries for all genders are far more useful and may safe another boy from being needlessly violated by a girl or woman who didn’t learn such lessons herself.

    I can’t even begin to count the number of men/boys, not to mention their partners, who’ve told me about violent and coercive former partners and how no one seems to get it.
    I get it and I will not excuse it, downplay it or drown it in statistics.

    It happens, it is ugly and it must be recognized, acknowledged and eradicated through better education and zero tolerance of those who promote such ugly, minimizing rape myths no matter what label they affix their ideology.

  59. doctormindbeam says:

    I’m really sorry to hear that you suffered those things. That’s awful.

  60. doctormindbeam says:

    You keep mentioning this. What kind of “rowdiness” among guys are you talking about exactly?

  61. doctormindbeam says:

    There’s something really perverse about the idea of “teaching boys not to rape” — like men are naturally rapists and need to be taught not to do it.

    You hit the nail on the head: We need to teach enthusiastic consent and personal limits — and to everyone.

  62. mythago says:

    There is also a place in that education for rebutting the toxic gender myths which are,in fact, aimed differently at boys and girls. That’s not “men, don’t rape!”

  63. doctormindbeam says:

    I’m not sure I follow you, sorry.

  64. ozymandias42 says:

    I believe what mythago is trying to say is that, in the context of a sex education that teaches enthusiastic consent and personal limits to everyone, there is a place for discussion and debunking of misandric myths like “if a girl gets a guy horny, then she was asking to be raped, because it wasn’t like he could stop.”

  65. doctormindbeam says:

    @ozy: In simpler terms, “teach not to slut shame?” I don’t think that’s an inherent behavior that has to be convinced away either. How about teaching not to slut shame by example: That is, by not treating and modeling sex as a dirty and sinful act? I think that’s your solution.

  66. mythago says:

    @doctormindbeam: I think women also need to be taught not to slut-shame, but that said, in addition to messages that affect everyone (“your body is yours; no is a complete sentence”) there’s room for addressing the ways myths about sexuality are applied differently to men and women. For example, women need to know that men do not in fact always want sex and that it’s wrong to shame anyone as “gay” (as if that were shameful, but I digress) or unmanly for saying no; but men are the ones who generally have to cope with being on the receiving end of that myth..

  67. doctormindbeam says:

    I don’t disagree, but it does raise an interesting idea about the differences. Some of the examples — “your body is your own,” or, “always solicit enthusiastic consent” — seem to come from within. In other words, they’re education about, “Here’s something about your/his/her body that you don’t know,” and are “positive education” (instilling an idea). The others — about slut shaming, “men don’t always want sex,” etc — come from without. I don’t think they’re things people would inherently believe, but rather, are “negative education” (removing an idea instilled by society).

  68. mythago says:

    Makes sense. The differences I was thinking of, though, are more “here is something that directly affects men/women, and while women/men should be aware of this and not make the problem worse, men/women will likely want to know about how it affects them personally.” If you’re male, you probably already know you don’t want sex with anything slippery at the drop of a hat, but you may need to hear that this is actually normal and ways to rebut that myth interally, as it were; whereas if you’re female, you’re a bit removed from that.

  69. gwallan says:

    Be careful. In some jurisdictions it’s considered domestic violence for a man to refuse his partner’s demands for sex.

  70. gwallan says:

    @doctormindbeam…

    My state amended it’s sexual assault laws in the late nineties because the gender specific wording prevented the conviction of female predators(when it happened to me as a child it was effectively legal). Of the several dozen females found guilty since that time ONE went to prison. The typical media coverage presents these perpetrators as worthy of sympathy, the judges get sucked in by the rapist’s tears and the victims watch as justice evaporates. The broader discourse makes it very clear where our place is.

    Among the contingent of male survivors known to me there’s a sense that collectively we’d be better off if the amendments hadn’t occurred. You should consider the sense of betrayal these men and boys feel at the callous dismissiveness they experience from all directions.

    Yes we do know women are not the enemy. Nor are they pure as the driven snow. There are reasons why male victims are extra wary of women if they have the courage to speak politically. Too often they’re accused of misogyny for daring to admit being abused by a woman. They been aggressively dismissed too many times by those claiming feminist ideals. They’ve seen too many generalised celebrations and too much excuse making by women over the grotesque acts of other women and too many female audiences enthusiastically applauding women who raped boys. With men they can count on a juvenile response – which is easily dealt with – or a recognition of double standards. Where women are concerned it can be a minefield.

    As a matter of survival victims build walls around themselves for their own safety. They are built on pain and experience. By definition they are built to do the job they NEED to do. This is what you are seeing in play but not fathoming.

  71. gwallan says:

    Shora said…

    They can’t be solved the same way women did for female abuse, because I think that female abuse and male abuse come from different assumptions, culturally.

    They are actually much more alike than different. For example among child sexual abusers both sexes display very similar motivations and behaviour.

  72. gwallan says:

    Got that.

    Extra problem sets for same sex victims regardless of gender. Absolutely true.

    Caveat. Regardless of the abuser’s sex it will frequently be referenced in some way to discredit the male victim either individually or collectively.

  73. gwallan says:

    Shora said…

    But I have yet to see men talk about their abuse and how they have healed from it. I have yet to see men join in solidarity in a community of kindness and safety, of healing. I have yet to see one man turn to another and say “I know what you’re going through, and what you’re feeling is okay.” I’ve yet to even hear about experiences of male survivors of sexual assault and rape more personal than a list of statistics extrapolated to real life.

    Then you are very unfortunate for it does happen. You would see magic taking place.

    Men talk about sexual abuse – the journey to recovery

    These men are among a much larger, national collective of survivors in Australia. There are many such groups. Understand that western culture scorns their pain because of their gender AND that of their abuser. Not a few of them have been rejected with prejudice by services funded to help victims(how dare they call a rape crisis line!!). They cannot cry overtly for that invites further cruelty. Their safe places are therefore much more secluded. YOU could not and should not be there.

    Note that I mean no disrespect. We’re learning how to do it and it’s working. It won’t work in the immediate presence of women however. Herein lies one of the mistakes of feminism. It’s attacks on male only spaces and monopolization of the discourse surrounding abuse have left men and, particularly, boys with very few safe places to deal with these issues.

    By the way, well done for having the courage to write this piece. While it does indicate it’s something you’ve not learned much about previously that seems more a consequence of opportunity than endeavour. At least you can see something wrong and question why. That way will lead to wisdom.

  74. Cheradenine says:

    Which jurisdictions? Do you have a citation for that?

  75. elementary_watson says:

    I guess he was referring to the crime of “indifference” in Mexico, see here: Mexican men who display extreme jealousy or avoid sex with their wives could be tried in court and punished under a new law.

    Really great blog, by the way!

  76. Cheradenine says:

    Woah. What. The. Fuck?

    I completely get the stuff about the controlling behaviour — but how the hell do they take that and turn around into making a law that removes male’s legal ability to revoke consent? That’s… insane.

    I can’t find any second sources on this, though… it’s Reuters (with no journalist credited in the byline) reporting Excelsior (with no references to issue, journalist, etc) reporting on the alleged content of a law (which they don’t give the name or number of) that I can’t find any more details on. I know that our UK newspapers have been known to bullshit about the content of laws before, so I can believe it happens elsewhere too.

    (And before you say it: Yes, I know, I’m completely arguing from the point-of-view of “This. Can’t. Possibly. Be. True!” with no rationale… but it is a pretty extraordinary claim. I’d like to see some followup or corroboration.)

  77. Laura says:

    I wouldn’t ever say that if you get a guy aroused then whatever happens is your fault.

    But I did talk to my girl about sexual desire in a very bilateral sense. I told her that nature wants healthy young females pregnant, and her body knows what to do. And that if she has decided ahead of time that sex is not going to happen, she and the boy have to limit the necking, or whatever they call it nowadays, because she’ll get aroused just like he will. It’s not fair to either party to kiss and fondle and so forth endlessly if you already know you are not going there. The prudent person who isn’t prepared for sex – not at that time, or not with that person, or doesn’t have the bc lined up, or whatever – doesn’t get into that situation where it becomes really hard to say “no”. And I think we do girls a great disservice when we act like it’s only the boy who will be wanting sex.

  78. Danny says:

    Since we’re talking about male rape victims I’d like to mention a fairly strange but extremely fucked up phenomenon. This is the first example I could find of a case in which a woman statutoraily rapes a young boy, has a child as a result, keeps custody, and then manages to get the court to force the boy (or the boy’s family) to pay child support.

    That has to be painful as a parent to have to pay the woman that raped your son for a grandchild you don’t have contact with (or at the most limited contact with) and it has to especially painful to be that young boy.

  79. AB says:

    You’re right there’s more at work. In fact, I don’t think it would be possible to sum up all the things at work here. But I also believe that the transactional model of sex (with the woman being supposed to give sex in return for something else, and the man being supposed to always want sex in exchange for whatever he gives) is one of the major factors fostering tolerance of rape and enabling rapists to excuse their actions.

    Because sex is considered something men get from women (and opposed to something people of all sexes are supposed to mutually enjoy), men pressuring women into sex or getting them too drunk to withdraw consent is simply an effective tactic to ‘win’ the prize of sex from a woman (because she didn’t protect it well enough), whereas the idea that a man wouldn’t even want the ‘prize’ is considered unthinkable.

    There’s a comment in the Yes Means Yes blog which illustrates it pretty well (I don’t agree with the numbers presented by the poster, but the experience is pretty telling) http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/#comment-1201

    “ i WAS TOLD, out loud by a guy in front of a class of 60 students an a professor, that men slept with drunk women “to save time”.
    “they’re going to give in and give it up eventually – all women are whores at heart. they just want something in return. we don’t always WANT to give them something. sometimes we just want sex now. and it’s a lot easier to get “no-strings sex” from a drunk girl than a sober girl. what’s wrong with that?”

    and he says, and i am quoting exactly “if they didn’t want to get f*cked, they wouldn’t get drunk”.”

    The latter indicates an assumption of consent (if they didn’t want it they wouldn’t get drunk), but the idea behind it is obviously that sex is a commodity for women, and if they didn’t want men to take it from them, they should protect it and not “give in” and “give it up”. In the case of men, it’s almost never claimed that they didn’t protect themselves adequately, nor is their behaviour used to justify rape, it’s simply assumed that they got lucky.

    I fear that if these reactions are conflated, they become harder to address. Perhaps this concern is moot (I certainly have a hard time imagining that advocating a policy of enthusiastic consent in general can have a negative influence), but I do think the differences are interesting, if nothing else.

  80. AB says:

    That is horrible! Imo, the victim should (barring extreme mental illness or criminal behaviour) always have the primary rights to the child, and demanding people who didn’t have sex willingly to pay for the consequences of it is just cruel.

  81. typhonblue says:

    Here’s an interesting thread:

  82. ozymandias42 says:

    …What. The. Fuck.

  83. Ginny says:

    I wish there were studies! Or, rather, studies I knew of… I’ve never seen any. All I’ve seen is anecdotes and folk wisdom. I was in an argument recently with someone who insisted that sex is *always* strategically provided or withheld in relationships, at least sometimes, and that I was unrealistic to think that there were ever relationships in which it wasn’t, and if I claimed that *my* relationship was such a one then I was naïve and self-deluding… not that I’m bitter about that.

    Anyway, it seems to me that people absorb such folk wisdom, supported by anecdote and personal experience, and then believe that this is how the world works. A good study would be tremendously helpful.

  84. ozymandias42 says:

    I don’t strategically withhold sex, but then my social skills are way too poor to manipulate people except unintentionally. 🙂

  85. mythago says:

    Yeah, exactly. It’s a link from 2007, and the prosecutor doesn’t say anything about consent.

  86. mythago says:

    I know of at least one case where that decision was hastily reversed, but don’t know if it was this case – the links are a bit old.

    In my state (as in others), a rapist has no parental rights, by law, to a child they conceived through rape – so neither custody nor child support can possibly be an issue, as legally they’re a stranger to the child. The statute here is gender-neutral, thankfully.

  87. Danny says:

    I’m glad they were reversed in the case you mention but its pretty absurd such a decision was made in the first place.

    Speaking of. Didn’t that teacher Mary Kay Letourneau who had sex with her under aged student have two kids by him while he was still under aged? I don’t recall her losing custody of those resulting children…

  88. doctormindbeam says:

    @gwallan: Is it really this bad? I understand what you’re saying, but when you say,

    They’ve seen too many generalised celebrations and too much excuse making by women over the grotesque acts of other women and too many female audiences enthusiastically applauding women who raped boys.

    I have to wonder. I’m not outright saying that you’re wrong, but I’d like to see some examples of this. If it’s true, it’s pretty horrifying. I just want to be careful to avoid hyperbole.

  89. doctormindbeam says:

    Good post material, there.

  90. doctormindbeam says:

    @Ginny: Anecdotally, all the couples I’ve known who have sex used “strategically” instead of an act of love have ended up having really shitty relationships. I think it’s just an unacceptable thing to do, personally.

  91. Jess says:

    There is more here on raped boys paying child support.

    http://feck-blog.blogspot.com/search/label/Raped%20males

  92. dungone says:

    I have heard many, many people defend this practice as “in the best interests of the child.” There’s also an account of a woman saving a used condom and using it to impregnate herself and then getting child support. Whether or not the man made the story up, the bottom line is it wouldn’t have mattered anyway. These are just the natural consequences of what happens when men in our society do not have the same reproductive freedom that women enjoy. Every time a man isn’t given a choice and people say that he should have kept it in his pants, it reminds me of stories like this.

  93. AB says:

    Stuff like the “Say something deliberately offensive/insulting, hold up your hands in mock fear, and giggle as someone else slaps you on the top of your head” I mentioned earlier. Impromptu wrestling matches. A (usually bigger) guy hugging and squeezing another guy, perhaps lifting him off the ground. An occasional punch to the upper arm. There’s also verbal abuse involved, but since Danish humour tends to rely heavily on sarcasm, absurdity, and breaking social taboos, a lot of it is more about affection than anything else.

    The same group of guys also engages in a lot of friendly physical contact, such as hugging, massaging each other, lying close together, and in one instance, a kiss on the forehead. I don’t think the rowdiness is seriously aggressive, but it can serve as a less harmful outlet for aggressive conflict. Not all people are included in it equally, and it seems to be mostly voluntary (the guys who never initiate and don’t react positively to it are rarely, if ever, targeted with anything but verbal jabs), but in some situations I suspect the targeted guy sees it mostly as something to just get over with.

  94. doctormindbeam says:

    @AB: Well, in the States the male bonding via feigned conflict looks slightly different, but I think I understand what you mean now. I think there’s a difference in intent. Even if the action is the same, one guy playfully slapping another on the arm is very different from one guy slapping another the exact same way — but when actually angry. The same holds true between the sexes. Even if you aren’t doing any more damage, one is done for humor and getting closer to someone, while the other is an expression of anger.

  95. dungone says:

    Shora, there are tons of stories like this and I’ll share a couple in a minute, but I want to point out that there are several dimensions to this that are worth bringing up as a teachable moment. Men have, for a long time, come to grips with the idea that it’s possible to give consent after the fact and that one does not necessarily have to ask in order for it to be implied. This isn’t only because men are used to doing this to women and feel a sense of entitlement, but because that’s what women do to men all the time and men can’t simply overlook this when it happens to them and everyone says it’s okay. It also has to be understood that the answer doesn’t necessarily have to be to sensationalize to the point where rigid, inflexible definitions for rape and assault mean that even the mere accusation of rape turns women into social pariahs just as it does for men.

    For instance, I have yet to work with a female coworker who has not placed her hand on me without my consent. I never felt it polite to ask them to stop, but the thing is that I was actually trained to think of this as a good thing – if a woman puts her hand on my elbow or shoulder, then she’s just saying that she trusts me and doesn’t think I’m a rapist. Great, huh? Since I welcome not being thought of as a rapist, it’s inconceivable for me to ever say no. But what if the rules were really the same for men and women on casual touching. Would women like having even their benevolent behavior so much constrained?

    But the funny thing is that the gentle touching is in fact part of the same exact double standard for sexual assault where the same behavior is okay for a woman but not for a man. When I was in high school, for example, there was a huge groping problem. The girls were groping guys. In 9th and 10th grade, I continuously had my ass pinched in a crowded hallway and on some days it was multiple times per day. Once when I turned around fast enough to catch who did it before she let go, she looked at me straight in the eye and said “well that’s all the action you’re ever going to get.” And it wasn’t because I was a little stud-muffin. I had bad acne, extremely low self esteem, and practically no sexual experience at the time. A lot of other guys were in the same camp. I remember having conversations with angry guys who would say things like “next time it happens, I’m punching her tit and running away.” But then I remember having conversations with girls who would say, “this is great, all those guys deserve it cos it’s always the guys doing it to girls!” They saw it as revenge and I think the teachers agreed because they did nothing. It’s OK when it happens to guys! Needless to say I wasn’t one of those guys who was doing it to girls.

    This was years ago. A few months ago something happened that’s still on my mind. I was driving around with an old friend from HS and we came past a 15 yr old boy handcuffed to a lamp post in his underwear and his clothes laying in the dirt. He was just standing there, his head hung low and didn’t even look at us. He had crude, sexually explicit writing in lipstick on his chest and abdomen. Things like “Fucking Whore” and “Cheater.” My friend went to get a wire cutter while I talked to him. But I didn’t ask what had happened. His demeanor explained enough. I asked if he wanted me to call the police and he said no, so I didn’t. It looked like he was out there for a while, since his lips were starting to turn blue in the cold. I wondered how many other people drove by without stopping, but I didn’t want to ask. We ended up doing nothing more than cutting him down and taking him home. The way I handled it was probably wrong, but there’s a sort of unwritten rule among men that when that sort of thing happens, you just don’t talk about it because when you do talk about it, the thing that hangs over you is that no one really cares when women do it. Man, and I thought the gender wars were pretty bad when I went through school…

  96. typhonblue says:

    ‘Once when I turned around fast enough to catch who did it before she let go, she looked at me straight in the eye and said “well that’s all the action you’re ever going to get.”’

    There needs to be a word for this. When women abuse their sexual gatekeeping role in order to hurt men.

  97. ozymandias42 says:

    I definitely argue with the idea of women having a “sexual gatekeeping role”– that’s a cultural narrative that’s a part of rape culture. It presents sex as a thing men do to women, as opposed to a thing that people do to each other. It erases the women who have initiatory sexual desire of their own (hi!). Besides, both genders should be capable of being “gatekeepers”: a man has the right to stop sex the same way that a woman does, and it shouldn’t be assumed that he’s in a state of consent simply because he’s male.

    Also, I argue with the idea that shaming someone with “you can’t get a date” is specifically a thing women do to men: as a middle and high school student, I was occasionally bullied by being told I would never have a boyfriend– and I’m female. Of couse “can’t get a date” vs. “can’t get laid” thing is gendered, but the general idea of insulting someone by saying they can’t have non-platonic relationships is the same. .

    What dungone describes is sexual harassment that went unpunished because of its perpetrators’ gender.

  98. elementary_watson says:

    I agree; I would have thought to be able to find far more, more reliable and non-sensationalist (possibly approving) sources for these laws, and was somewhat surprised I couldn’t find them.

    It is an extraordinary claim, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there was lost a lot in translation; however, if it really does say what it seems to say, then the further silence about it is really telling, and shocking …

  99. typhonblue says:

    “I definitely argue with the idea of women having a “sexual gatekeeping role”– that’s a cultural narrative that’s a part of rape culture.”

    Regardless of the appropriateness of it, women are placed in a social role as the gatekeepers of sex. And, functionally, there are more men who have never had sex then women.

    This can be abused; hell, I’d argue the entire concept is abusive.

  100. Tamen says:

    You know, it wasn’t difficult to trace back to the original law – it’s called “The General Law on Women’s Access to a Life Free of Violence”/”Ley de Acceso de las Mujeres a una Vida Libre de Violencia en Estados Mexicanos”.

    I don’t read Spanish, but I found what I believe is an English translation of the law we’re talking about and here is the pertinent part as far as I can see:

    Article 6
    Types of violence against women are:
    I. Psychological violence. -Any act of omission that harms psychological stability, which may consist of negligence,
    abandonment, repeated carelessness, jealousy, insults, humiliation, devaluation, marginalization, lack of love, indifference,
    infidelity, destructive comparisons, rejection, restriction of self-determination and threats, which lead the victim to
    depression, isolation, devaluation of self-esteem and even suicide;

    Source (PDF): http://portal.veracruz.gob.mx/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/IVM/IMAGENES/222.PDF

    I’ve bolded the terms which I think are the source of the claim by that Reuter’s article. If a women is being depressed by either me rejecting her, my lack of love for her, my indifference towards her or my negligence of her then I’ve commited an act of psychological violence against that women. Saying no to sex with my wife may fall under all of the four points I’ve emphasized, by letter if not (I hope!) by intention of this law – although it is scary that the special prosecutor Alicia Elena Perez Duarte is quoted as saying that men who don’t have sex with their wife’s are quilty of indifference (as in the law).

  101. ozymandias42 says:

    All right then, we agree. 🙂

  102. Shora says:

    ‘I have yet to work with a female coworker who has not placed her hand on me without my consent. I never felt it polite to ask them to stop, but the thing is that I was actually trained to think of this as a good thing ”

    I’ve personally worked a lot of jobs where both men and women have put their hands on me without express consent. Most of these have been restaurant jobs, to be fair, so the habit of putting ones hand on someones back is more of a “I’m behind you, so don’t back up and cause a catastrophe” rather than “I have no respect for your boundaries.” In fact, in my current job at school, we joke about it being a “sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen” because there is a LOT of inappropriate touching going on, all in good fun. But even then, it’s really fucking obvious who’s cool with it and who is not, and if anyone expressed a problem with it people would stop immediately. I personally don’t see a problem with casual touches, except when I actively dislike or feel uncomfortable around someone doing the touching. I’m not the same as everyone else though, and I should make more of an effort to not touch people I’m not close with.

    “The way I handled it was probably wrong, but there’s a sort of unwritten rule among men that when that sort of thing happens, you just don’t talk about it because when you do talk about it, the thing that hangs over you is that no one really cares when women do it.”

    I don’t think you handled it wrong. You cut him down, walked him home, and did what he could. Maybe it’s just me, but if I’m really upset about something, I don’t want the sympathy of strangers, no matter how well meaning they are. Besides that though, that is really fucking horrible. I don’t care what the fuck happened those people (likely, women) need to be fucking arrested.

    Everyone, under all circumstances, has a right to dictate what their boundaries are. It’s a shame that that message is given mostly to women against men at the expense of men against everyone else. It’s a crime that so many aspects of society undermine that very basic human right.

  103. Shora says:

    You are absolutely right; I do have a lot to learn. I’m very grateful to ozy; by creating this blog, she really opened my eyes to men’s issues, and how myopic the feminist movement can be (and I myopic I can be; I even wrote a blog post touching on it. My views then seem so silly now).

    “YOU could not and should not be there. ”

    I read this sentence and felt my hackles rise. And then I thought of all the female-only spaces in general, and the survivor spaces in particular, and i feel it’s not really appropriate for my hackles to rise. Of COURSE male survivors may need male-centric or male-exclusive spaces to heal. It only makes sense. I know a lot about where my negative feelings come from, and i think a lot of them make sense, but they’re not useful and they don’t help anyone, least of all survivors, who need and deserve all the help they can get. So yes, that is perhaps why I have not heard such stories. I suspected it was more because i hadn’t seen them that that they don’t exist. But even still; if male survivor spaces are so hidden, and female survivor spaces are so available, how many men are not accessing the help and support they need? It’s a very scarey and disheartening thought. That’s part of the reason why I wrote what I did.

  104. dungone says:

    I appreciate your response and I admit it feels weird having someone actually say that something that happened to me amounted to sexual harassment. I felt some difficulty writing it because it seemed silly at first. I had to reverse the genders and ask myself, would this have been a big deal if… But at the time I had severe insomnia and skipped a lot of school and I would say a lot of it was due to that abusive gatekeeper behavior. I could name a hundred instances.

    What I find most shocking is just how brazen women can be about this role. I have had not one, but several women, make some very crude comments right during sex or immediately afterwards. One woman told me the sex is amazing but she wished I was better looking. And when I stopped, she demanded that I keep going! Just last week, a woman who actually forced herself on me was combing her hand through my hair and dreamily and said she wished I wasn’t starting to go bald. Can you imagine if I told her that I wished she was skinnier?

    But is that rape culture? I think it’s fair to say that this term is loaded with connotations about gender and even from your use of it here I kind of get the sense that the women who used to tell me I’d never get laid were really the victims, as a class, because they weren’t allowed to be aggressive enough. Is that a fair reading?

    I read that throughout all of human history, something like 80% of all women reproduced while only 40% of men reproduced. In fact, here is where a sociologist mentions it… http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm It’s actually a stunning figure, if it’s accurate. I hope it’s no longer as true as it was in the past, but it really sets the gate keeping role as a wholly separate issue from anything like rape culture.

  105. Shora says:

    99% of all rapes are committed by men? I call ALL the bullshit on that. Quite apart from the fact that every time someone quotes a statistic in the nineties I call bullshit, I’ve seen that feckless (i think?) blog post making rounds. That study looked pretty legit, though it had it’s limitations.

    I think a not insignificant portion of rapes happen when the raping party thinks that no rape is actually occurring. No one actually wants to be a rapist, after all; rapists or horrid psychopathic monsters who deserve to be locked up! But that wasn’t REALLY rape, they just weren’t into it! I feel that was a major contributing factor to my story above; the discourse is largely that women CANNOT rape men, so this girl could rationalize that no rape or assault was happening. How she could rationalize having sex with someone who obviously did not want to have sex with her I have yet to figure out.

  106. Shora says:

    I kind of put child abusers in a different category. I’m really talking out of my ass here, but I would imagine that child abuse has a very different dynamic that abuse by adult to other adults. If only because adult/child dynamics are different from adult/adult dynamics.

    I’d imagine that the rationalizations and motivations of rapists are similar among all genders, but the cultural assumptions that support rape are different among different genders, and it is when we as a society dismantle those supports (rape culture!) that we prevent the creation of victims and promote the healing of survivors (if that statement makes any sense. I’m not sure it does.)

  107. Shora says:

    Tamen; If what you quoted is the letter of the law (or at least, the closest approximation; it’s amazing what can be lost in translation) I can see how those points you bolded can be intensely psychologically damaging and so make it’s way into a law trying to combat domestic violence (is domestic violence particularly prevalent in Mexico or entrenched in the culture? I wouldn’t know.) I can also see how a shitty journalist could come up with that sensationalist headline, or how a shitty judge could make such an absurd ruling. At the end of the day, I’m really not certain what help legislation like this really gives to victims of domestic violence; things like this are largely useless without culture to back it up (see: rape laws) and when culture backs these things up, the legislation is often not needed.

  108. Shora says:

    Ginny, I’ve never once used sex strategically. In fact, I’ve never used sex at all. I’ve had sex, of course, and none of it was for any personal gain or leverage except “Wow, we both want to have sex. Let’s do that!” It’s worked extremely well for me so far.

    Personally I don’t like the idea of a study on the economics of sex. I think that “What are the economics of sex” is the absolute wrong question.

  109. Shora says:

    Your welcome. I’m so, so glad people have found something valuable here. I wanted to write about this in a way I hadn’t seen before, and I’m really glad that I seem to have succeeded, at least on some level. Thank you so much for your kind words, everyone.

  110. Shora says:

    I don’t think that’s rape culture. I think that’s really disgustingly awful women. There is no culture in place that says it’s okay for you to insult a sexual partner, among men or women; our culture at least has a modicum of respectability in that case. What you describe are some really awful, shitty people. I’d like to think that most people, men or women, aren’t like that.

    Taunting someone about the sex they are likely to get (or the lack thereof) isn’t fulfilling a gatekeeping role; it’s bullying and shaming. I’d like to reiterate this isn’t a cultural discourse that supports and reinforces this behavior, this is just really shitty behavior. The people who engage in this behavior, unlike the people who believe in sexual gatekeeping or transactional models of sex, are simply straight up bad people who you don’t want to be around ever.

  111. Cheradenine says:

    I’ve personally worked a lot of jobs where both men and women have put their hands on me without express consent […] But even then, it’s really fucking obvious who’s cool with it and who is not, and if anyone expressed a problem with it people would stop immediately. I personally don’t see a problem with casual touches, except when I actively dislike or feel uncomfortable around someone doing the touching. I’m not the same as everyone else though, and I should make more of an effort to not touch people I’m not close with.

    Touch is really important to human beings. We’re a social species and this kind of casual non-sexual touching is a critical part of how we manage and tie together our social groups and, well, stay sane.

    So, I don’t think we should all be going round trying not to come into contact with each other without a signed contract and a logbook recording the number of prior social interactions we’ve had to see if it meets the threshold for touching. It’s isolating.

    That’s not a good thing.

    On the other hand, like you say, if it’s someone you don’t like or feel uncomfortable around, than it’s pretty creepy. And some people just don’t like to be touched. At all. Either because they’ve just always been that way, or because of something in their past. And that needs to be respected too.

    The thing is, you don’t need to be psychic to tell these situations apart. I think there should be mandatory “reading and understanding body-language” classes in schools. If you have an ounce of social awareness (sadly, not true for a lot of people I meet) it’s pretty obvious when someone’s uncomfortable with you touching them, and that there are nonverbal ways to gently negotiate the boundaries of someone’s personal space without being skeevy.

    Personally, I have a pretty high need for touch, but at the same time I’m acutely aware of people’s boundaries and the importance of not trampling them (and didn’t grow up in a touchy-feely culture — although the city I live in these days is multiculti enough that I have a social group that are). So I tend to really appreciate it when people do go ahead, even if I don’t know them that well — providing I’m not giving off “no” signals. I’ve had people “go in for the hug” when I’m standing there arms folded across my chest with a cold look on my face. What. Were. They. Thinking?

  112. Nobody says:

    Ozymandias

    Where do you stand on the use of “cant get a date”, “can’t get laid enough”, “pro-rapist” etc shaming rhetoric employed by the Marcotte types to dismiss legitimate claims and victim advocacy and awareness by the men’s movement?

    “Small penis” and “gay” seems to have been abandoned by feminists in the debate, but up until a few years ago, this sort of attempted sexual shaming was very common too.

  113. dungone says:

    I think you’re calling a large proportion of women awful disgusting people, including some people’s mothers. I guess you’d have to be on the male end of a hetero life to really experience it, so I don’t blame you for jumping to the conclusion that it’s my choice of mate that’s really the problem. Keep in mind the historical statistic that only 40% of men ever manage to reproduce. If accurate, it doesn’t leave much of a chance to improve the quality of their partner for a lot of men, which makes a lot of the dating advice given to men by women come off as rather tone deaf. Our culture creates gender roles where men have to please women while women judge men to pick out a suitable partner. It’s a simple consequence that even well-intentioned women will slip up in that role. Just about every guy I know, for example, has had sexual partners who got tired of sex after they climaxed themselves only to turn around to tell him to just finish it off on his own. If you watch the show Weeds, you can see a good example of that dynamic in one of the episodes. It’s usually followed up by “no, I already gave you enough sex.” If that’s not gatekeeping, I don’t know what else to call it.

    To be even more radical about it, I would say that women’s given role as gatekeepers is the reason behind the invisibility of male rape. Our culture finds it incredibly shocking when sex is forced upon women because it also violates their culturally assigned role as gatekeepers. But when men get raped, it’s either funny (prison rape), or something to be proud of if a woman does it. So parents who had their boys raped by a female teacher might say “atta boy, that’s my son!” Being selected to be one of the 40% of men who might carry on their genes to future generations might be seen as a positive that outweighs the fact that they got raped.

  114. dungone says:

    Also, you’d be surprised at the way women set sexual boundaries based on how they judge their partner. What they allow a guy to do depends on how much they like him. It’s not about having wild crazy fun sex, it’s about a transaction – a man of a certain stature gives them attention, they are willing to put out to a degree that’s in keeping with his status. I’ve been told so many times that she’ll only give a blowjob to a boyfriend and I haven’t qualified while others would only give head. Others claimed that only men who earned it can take her from behind and numerous variations of such rules. Once a woman is already doing this, it’s not that far of a stretch for her to blurt out WHY she’s setting these boundaries. Sometimes it’s insulting and very offensive, other times it’s downright silly. I once had a girl stop in the middle of sex and say she didn’t want to do it anymore and when I asked why, she told me it was because she learned about recessive genes in biology class and it made her realize that her kids would never be able to have blue eyes, anyway. I’m not joking.

  115. ozymandias42 says:

    Man, this blog is opening MY eyes all over the place… 🙂 It’s a learning experience for all of us, I guess.

  116. ozymandias42 says:

    DTMFA, dude. 🙂

    When I say rape culture, I mean “the set of cultural narratives in our society that systematically minimize, apologize for and lead to a greater instance of rape and other forms of sexual violence, harassment, etc.” (I am considering retiring it, the way I’ve retired ‘patriarchy,’ but I’m not sure if the risk of being misunderstood is quite as bad as it is with ‘patriarchy.’) In this case, the idea that women can’t sexually harass men (presumably because male sexuality is thought to be “inherently” aggressive and unwanted and women are thought not to have initiatory sexual desire) has lead to women not being punished for a sexual harassment that, um, clearly happened.

    “Today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men” is the actual stat. What that means, presumably, is that polygamy of both soft and hard varieties (i.e. mistresses, harems) meant that a lot of men could not reproduce whatsoever because economically successful men were hogging all the women. Patriarchy hurts men too? 🙂 Also, extremely genetically successful men such as Genghis Khan could literally have 1% of people currently alive descended from them, while women are limited to, at most, maybe twenty children. All it takes is a few Genghis Khans to really skew the numbers. In this case, I think it’s a case of both women and lower class men getting oppressed by upper-class men.

  117. ozymandias42 says:

    For people like myself who have almost no social awareness, it’s really okay to ask before you touch someone. “Want a hug?” is a little awkward but hugging someone who hates touch is even worse. Once you roughly know someone’s rules (and they know you’ll stop immediately if they say no), you don’t have to ask so much anymore.

    It’s also really important to stand up for people who don’t like to be touched. A lot of times people pressure them to hug someone or whatever anyway or make fun of them when they don’t, and that’s really not okay.

  118. ozymandias42 says:

    I think there are two distinct issues here. One is that women are allowed to stop sex at any point. So are men. I’ve had sex stop after my partner came when I didn’t come sometimes; I’ve had sex stop after I came when he didn’t come sometimes. At least in my experience, it’s roughly 50/50. If it isn’t and you have a problem with this, you should communicate this with your partner; if they respond like asshats, either live with it or dump them.

    Also, people are allowed to set their own sexual boundaries; consenting to one activity does not mean consenting to every activity. My current boyfriend wouldn’t have PIV sex with me until he was in love with me; would you say he was a “gatekeeper”? Hell, I won’t have sex with people who don’t have above-average intelligence; is this my gatekeeper function or just me having a type, the same way that a man might be primarily interested in musicians?

  119. ozymandias42 says:

    It depends! If you are saying a sentence like “women only like jerks, they don’t like nice guys,” a response like “I think you are saying that because you can’t get laid and instead of figuring out why you are taking the face-saving maneuver of claiming it is because you are too awesome and women are all stupid”* is pertinent (possibly inaccurate, but pertinent). Similarly, calling someone a rape apologist if they proclaim that “if women wear short skirts, they should expect to be raped” is completely fair, because they are.

    However, responding to a debate about the wage gap by calling someone a rape apologist who can’t get laid is definitely not within the grounds of fair debate. I am not entirely sure how often this happens.

    Men with small penises and gay men are awesome and should not be used as insults.

    *Anecdata: Everyone I have met in meatspace who has claimed that “nice guys finish last” has been (a) incapable of getting laid for (b) reasons that had nothing to do with their niceness (and they were genuinely nice!).

  120. Nobody says:

    Ozymandias, you seem to have answered a different question to the one I asked you.

  121. dungone says:

    Okay, now I got what you meant about rape culture. That’s a very broad definition of the term that could be used to describe almost every aspect of our gender roles, but it was still clear once you defined it and I’m happy to accept how you used it.

    I’m aware of outlier men such as Genghis Khan and it’s an interesting take on polygamy by men at the top being the root cause, but that isn’t very obvious to me. What I see today and what I learned from reading across history and culture is that women choose men who then leave them to raise kids alone. They specifically select for traits in men that coincide with men who already have kids with other women, which in broad terms could be called “experience,” “maturity,” and “confidence.” I don’t have a vested interest in finger pointing to protect powerful men from any sort of culpability, but I see these mating choices as being driven by females themselves. I’ll agree that it’s a little bit of both, but there weren’t enough Genghis Khans in history to ever explain that statistic. He accounts for a single generation early in the history of a population that has grown exponentially ever since. Nearly half of the humans who have ever lived are alive today! So if you’re right, we would need a couple thousand Genghis Khans and a hefty dose of polygamy in the 20th century just to carry this statistic past the Baby Boomer generation.

  122. Danny says:

    Also, extremely genetically successful men such as Genghis Khan could literally have 1% of people currently alive descended from them, while women are limited to, at most, maybe twenty children. All it takes is a few Genghis Khans to really skew the numbers. In this case, I think it’s a case of both women and lower class men getting oppressed by upper-class men.
    And while Genghis Khan does have more decedents than more men I think its more than just upper class men vs women/lower class men. Bear in mind that Khan was a notorious rapist who was know to rape the majority of the female population of the villages he attacked. So its not as if these women actively chose that upper class man. In fact I’d wager that even most upper class men were in fact not rapists.

  123. dungone says:

    I agree that there are hang ups on both sides and there’s not a lot of positive things that I could say about it from either direction. But I think that context matters and even though a man might not be able to satisfy a woman just as often as the other way around, as a rule there’s never, ever the implication that he gave her enough as it is and if she really wants it that bad she can just go finish it off on her own. While I’m sure there are exceptions to every rule, it rarely stems from gate-keeping behavior among men. Waiting until you fall in love with someone is different from not falling in love with them unless they’re intelligent enough, for instance. IMHO if you have boundaries, apart from matters related to procreation (such as no PIV until love), you should set the same set of boundaries for everyone who you’re willing to have sex with. Otherwise why have sex in the first place? It’s like decaf – I just don’t get the point. It greatly undermines the experience when people turn their boundaries into a system of rewards and punishments for their partner where the act of having sex itself leaves one person feeling rejected. And I think that while the decision has to be obeyed, people do have the right to get upset if you stop half way through for because of something patently offensive an demeaning to the other person.

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